Board games

[jan paparazzi]

Eurogames are mostly German. And those games do what Germans always do (even in video games) namely being a trade simulator. I think those games aren't even real competition for the thematic games. Catan and Carcassonne more or less replaced Monopoly and Risk in my view. They are big mainstream family games without much theme, because mainstream people have very little interest in sci-fi or fantasy. I can't imagine playing Descent with family for example. Such a game I would have to play with friends or with people who also play roleplaying games and CCG's. That's my 2 cents.

Anyway I like thematic games, but some eurogames can also be fun as long as they are balanced. I believe Caverna and Le Havre have more paths to victory. With Catan iron-to-cities is overpowered and with Carcassonne you better be counting all that grass. As soon as you know the trick the game isn't fun anymore.

[Haffrung]

I'm probably more of a boardgamer than an RPGer. I find it easier for find the time for boardgames, and I'm acquainted with a much larger group of potential boardgame players. I also play several distinct kinds of boardgames: euro games, thematic games, wargames, 2-player games, etc. and so I can choose a different boardgame or opponent(s) depending on my mood.

Even people who don't especially like euro games will admit that they sparked a renaissance in the hobby, and have inspired pretty much every boardgame designed in the last 10 years. The design team at Fantasy Flight, who are the publisher of flagship thematic games like Twilight Imperium, Game of Thrones, and Battlestar Gallactica, openly acknowledge euro game mechanics as the foundation for their designs.

Heck, even historical wargames have evolved in recent years owing to the cross-pollination of game mechanics with euros. Games like Sekigahara, Europe Engulfed, Twilight Struggle, and Fire in the Lake owe much to the carefully engineered mechanical elegance of euro games.

So I don't really understand the animosity between the two camps. We live in a golden age of boardgames.

Some personal faves (among the 350 or so I've played and rated):

• El Grande
• Paths of Glory
• Innovation
• Age of Empires III
• Combat Commander
• Le Havre

It's worth noting that I don't have any RPG-like or dungeoncrawl games on that list. When I want to play an RPG, I play an RPG. Most of the RPG-like boardgames are pretty lacklustre, and a poor substitute for the real thing. I play boardgames to challenge and engage a completely different part of my mind than RPGs.

[Haffrung]

Eurogames are mostly German. And those games do what Germans always do (even in video games) namely being a trade simulator. I think those games aren't even real competition for the thematic games. Catan and Carcassonne more or less replaced Monopoly and Risk in my view. They are big mainstream family games without much theme, because mainstream people have very little interest in sci-fi or fantasy.

I disagree. It may have been true in Germany 10 years ago that Catan had more mainstream appeal. Back then, what we call hobby boardgames were mainly German family games. But in North America today, it's geeky themes that sell, and the audience is young geeks.

Look at Lords of Waterdeep. It's essentially a medium-light worker placement euro game with a D&D theme pasted on. And it's enormously popular because of the D&D theme. Today, it's very difficult for a game to break out in the market unless it has a fantasy, sci-fi, superhero, or horror theme.

The Hotness list on boardgamegeek looks very, very different today than it did even 5 years ago. Nowadays, it's dominated by thematic games aimed at 20-something American geeks - the Big Bang Theory crowd.

[flyerfan1991]

My favorite, but rarely played these days, is Avalon Hill's Advanced Civilization.

Of what we play now, I'd have to go with Settlers of Catan. By far it gets the most gameplay, and has been the case since we first picked it up almost 2 decades ago.

[jan paparazzi]

I disagree. It may have been true in Germany 10 years ago that Catan had more mainstream appeal. Back then, what we call hobby boardgames were mainly German family games. But in North America today, it's geeky themes that sell, and the audience is young geeks.

Well, maybe there is a difference between the USA and Europe. Maybe geeky themes are more mainstream in the USA.

The Hotness list on boardgamegeek looks very, very different today than it did even 5 years ago. Nowadays, it's dominated by thematic games aimed at 20-something American geeks - the Big Bang Theory crowd.

This is where I don't agree with you. If you look at the ranking on boardgamegeeks you see Terra Mystica (2), Through the Ages (3), Agricola (4), Puerto Rico (5), Caverna (6), Eclipse (, Power Grid (10), Castles of Burgundy (11) and Le Havre (12) all in the top 12. And they are all eurogames. Boardgamegeeks are known for being pro eurogames. Fortress Ameritrash is pro thematic games.

Anyway I like thematic games a lot, because I can geek out over them. I can  see myself playing them at the local Magic the Gathering playnight, but not with other people outside of the geeky world.

[Haffrung]

This is where I don't agree with you. If you look at the ranking on boardgamegeeks you see Terra Mystica (2), Through the Ages (3), Agricola (4), Puerto Rico (5), Caverna (6), Eclipse (, Power Grid (10), Castles of Burgundy (11) and Le Havre (12) all in the top 12. And they are all eurogames.

Games typically achieve high rankings on boardgamegeek after years and many thousands of ratings. So there's a lag between current popularity and rankings. But look at the Hotness list - which is the game pages getting the most views -  it's dominated by thematic games.

Star Wars: Imperial Assault
Scythe
Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients
Viceroy
Conan: Hyborian Quests
Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game
Spyfall
Xia: Legends of a Drift System
Biblios Dice
Rum & Bones
Android: Netrunner
ZNA
Terra Mystica
Mysterium
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Kill Shakespeare
Imperial Settlers
Roll for the Galaxy
Star Realms
Mage Knight Board Game
Alchemists
Eldritch Horror

Boardgamegeeks are known for being pro eurogames. Fortress Ameritrash is pro thematic games.

That was true 5 or 6 years ago. Not today. The membership of BGG has more than doubled in the last 4 years. Very different crowd going there today - much younger, and dominated by fantasy/sci-fi geeks who are new to boardgaming. It's all Star Wars, superheroes, space ships, and zombies now.

[3rik]

I don't play many boardgames. The ones I do enjoy are all thematic to a large extent. I like immersive boardgames where the theme is an important part of the experience.

Arkham Horror
Fury of Dracula Revised
Conquest of Planet Earth

Zombies!!! is actually a rather crappy game but can still be a lot of fun.

I'm not sure if I can pick a favorite, but we've got a bunch that we enjoy:

Forbidden Desert - fun co-op game about finding the parts to an  airship out of the desert you're stuck in racing against running out of  water, being buried by a desert storm, etc.

Castle Ravenloft - co-op dungeon crawler based on Ravenloft + stripped down 4e rules.

Elder Sign - co-op dice rolling game where you try to "solve" adventures and keep the Great Old Ones out of the world.

A Touch of Evil - it's like a Hammer Horror movie in a box. (We only ever play it co-op, never competitively)

So yeah, co-op games are my favorite.

I also enjoy co-op games the most.

I've seen several reviews claim that the Castle Ravenloft boardgame is a somewhat repetitive and boring experience.

Elder Sign is kind of fun, even though it's basically just rolling dice  until you get the right scores. I mean, the theme is 'painted on' kind  of thinly.

I have been looking at Touch of Evil several times, but the campy artwork keeps turning me off of it. Granted, Hammer Horror *is* campy, but the character portraits in Touch of Evil take it to a whole other level of campiness.

[jan paparazzi]

Games typically achieve high rankings on boardgamegeek after years and many thousands of ratings. So there's a lag between current popularity and rankings. But look at the Hotness list - which is the game pages getting the most views -  it's dominated by thematic games.

That was true 5 or 6 years ago. Not today. The membership of BGG has more than doubled in the last 4 years. Very different crowd going there today - much younger, and dominated by fantasy/sci-fi geeks who are new to boardgaming. It's all Star Wars, superheroes, space ships, and zombies now.

Ok, cool. Thanks for the info. That's the fun thing about this forum. I learn something new almost every topic. Is Shadows of Brimstone cool? I already saw it a long time ago on kickstarter and it looks pretty neat. There are a lot cool boardgames and such on kickstarter btw.

[jan paparazzi]

I don't play many boardgames. The ones I do enjoy are all thematic to a large extent. I like immersive boardgames where the theme is an important part of the experience.

Arkham Horror
Fury of Dracula Revised
Conquest of Planet Earth


I've seen several reviews claim that the Castle Ravenloft boardgame is a somewhat repetitive and boring experience.

Elder Sign is kind of fun, even though it's basically just rolling dice  until you get the right scores. I mean, the theme is 'painted on' kind  of thinly.

I have been looking at Touch of Evil several times, but the campy artwork keeps turning me off of it. Granted, Hammer Horror *is* campy, but the character portraits in Touch of Evil take it to a whole other level of campiness.

Maybe is Mansions of Madness up your alley? I believe it has the same characters as Arkham Horror and it is Lovecraftian horror.

[3rik]

Maybe is Mansions of Madness up your alley? I believe it has the same characters as Arkham Horror and it is Lovecraftian horror.

I'm good with just Arkham Horror and Elder Sign. FFG recycles a lot of the artwork for each Lovecraft-themed game they produce. I'd prefer something with a different "feel" for a change. Also, from what I've read about them, FFG's other Lovecraft-inspired games don't offer anything that makes them as appealing as Arkham Horror.

I'm ever so slowly warming up to Touch of Evil, though. I really like black powder era Hammer Studios style horror.

[Opaopajr]

I really like Arkham Horror, especially for its ease of set up. There was also a bit more strategic ebb & flow depending on the Mythos faced and party composition and time on the board. Was more abstract board-gamey, but setup and play was just enough to keep it engaging, Mythos-y, and less of an evening investment.

I like Mansions of Madness in some ways even more, because it feels even closer to roleplaying a scene, a sense of being there in the tactical sense than abstract. However the fiddly pieces create lengthy setups and that just sucks out the fun. I think we've gotten it down from about 2.5 hours that first time to about 1.5 hours now; the setup might be the scariest thing about the game itself. Really should be a computer game with all the bookkeeping (and is?, gotta check my iPad Elder Signs Omens video game catalog advert).

I don't really like Elder Sign Omens. Feels like shit spiral Yahtzee with a thin Mythos pretense. Glad I got the $6 app instead of the way more expensive board version. I keep returning to it because I love the art and flavor text, but I've given up trying to make it anything more. If you have accursed dice luck, like I do, in everything, the game is a waste of time.

I tried to like Power Grid, but... it's another "guess where's all the truly valuable stuff! turn this lever over here to trigger goodies five steps from now!" Eurogame. I try to mess with those games by metagaming and listening to what seems to be the most fought over item, then hyper-focus on imploding its comborrific reward system.

There was another Eurogame one that was about the age of discovery and had a Cube Tower to determine resource allocation... I also have miserable luck with that, but at least it screws everybody over. And I didn't get proper rules explanation, so at the end when I found out I overbid on basically crap and didn't combo it right I just quit. What's the point if I have to sit and scrutinize the oblique rules umpteen times and it's nowhere near as strategically involved as war games. edit: Found it, it's name is Amerigo. Ugh, what a bad experience that was. Comes nowhere close to the Crossfire threshold.

Speaking of which, I am now a GMT junkie. I heartily recommend Labyrinth the game based on the War on Terror, where you play either the USA or Jihadis. The game does have indirect conditions, so it does feel a bit Euro, but it also is pretty good with a solid opponent (and or its kickass CPU for solitaire). Set up is a breeze and a great cooperative or competitive challenge.

Twilight Struggle, GMT's most popular product, though is nowhere near as good; terribly swingy in terms of cards, and they essentially play their order themselves (remember, I have abysmal luck). After eight straight games where every hand played itself because all the other options were so bad and I kept losing as either side I just gave up on it. Last three of those games I played with an open hand to show, no joke, I have crazy bad luck and that the hands played themselves.

Currently we're following that Labyrinth designer and his latest series called COIN, where he explores four-way co-operative, counter-productive contests. His latest about Vietnam War, Fire in the Lake, is extremely cool. Buddy is gunning to buy another two of the four-part series, getting the Cuba revolution one and the Afghani War one. They're like limited print runs as there's such a small market that he can no longer get the Colombian Drug War one. Hopefully more people find his stuff so as to spur another print run.

The COIN stuff is amazing so far: imagine a four-way contest where you have a supposed ally, against two mutual enemies, but you can openly cannibalize your ally's victory condition for your own benefit. Fire in the Lake van also be played solitaire, of any side, and anywhere up to four players. Can also be played historically or non-historically, comes with various period scenarios, etc The only downside is it is a much heavier setup time than usual GMT games I've played. However if you are willing to invest a few days into getting into the strategic groove and getting the rules down pat, it is such an intriguing mess of strategic and tactical play.

That's it so far. Most of the other stuff I've played recently hasn't really wowed me (Talisman and its endless extensions (also known as "more tedious Monopoly, with magic!", that D&D Waterdeep cube game, reprint of Descent, Cosmic Patrol, Forbidden Island, etc.). I sort of have devolved into a Crossfire threshold: if you're not as fun as competitively shooting BBs at your opponent's disc in a center arena, get a better game. Dueling tops and spinjas are more fun than a lot of the Eurogame and retread classics (really? the world needed another re-skinned Monopoly?) of today.

[Necrozius]

I've seen several reviews claim that the Castle Ravenloft boardgame is a somewhat repetitive and boring experience.

I kind of feel the same way. It begs to be house-ruled, that's for sure. Luckily, the components are super nice and re-usable for other games (mostly great miniatures).

[Crabbyapples]

Speaking of which, I am now a GMT junkie. I heartily recommend Labyrinth the game based on the War on Terror, where you play either the USA or Jihadis. The game does have indirect conditions, so it does feel a bit Euro, but it also is pretty good with a solid opponent (and or its kickass CPU for solitaire). Set up is a breeze and a great cooperative or competitive challenge.

I love GMT games. Combat Commander Europe has to be in my top ten board games. Command and Colors Ancients is terrific and easy to play with any crowd. I've got a soft spot for eurogames, so I've enjoyed Dominant Species.

I've been debating on getting Here I Stand or Virgin Queen, but the time invested with such a large crowd is better spent playing rpgs. Manoeuvre looks great and will probably be my next GMT purchase.

Another thing I love about GMT, they make sturdy boxes. I bring board games when I travel, and I've never had a ding or dent in a GMT box.

[Justin Alexander]

This is where I don't agree with you. If you look at the ranking on boardgamegeeks you see Terra Mystica (2), Through the Ages (3), Agricola (4), Puerto Rico (5), Caverna (6), Eclipse (, Power Grid (10), Castles of Burgundy (11) and Le Havre (12) all in the top 12. And they are all eurogames. Boardgamegeeks are known for being pro eurogames. Fortress Ameritrash is pro thematic games.

You seem to be defaulting 4X games to being Eurogames. 4X games, however, predate the Eurogame movement, feature lots of simulation-based mechanics, and generally feature the "token extravaganza" that's deemed characteristic of "Ameritrash" games.

[3rik]

I'd thought Eurogames were actually typically rather un-simulationist: a bunch of tactical mechanics with a theme painted on afterwards.