I don't carry Warhammer at my store but I have come to appreciate the issues that exist in the miniatures industry that put them where they are.

You have to understand that the market all but collapses in the spring.  People head out of doors and spend their money at fairs and campgrounds.

GW's May / June price hike is actually pretty brilliant.  It provides a spike in sales right when things would be slowest and creates interest right when interest is fading.

The shift to plastics is more complex price wise.  The materials for the figures are cheap but the upfront cost of the moulds is very high, though not as absurd as it was twenty years ago.

What I can't abide is the endless movement of the game to require more and bigger figures and the endless compounding of the nightmarish sequence slavery that is part and parcel of Warhammer.

Mind you, the best market contender for a fantasy battle game is Kings of War which is at best workman-like and at worst dull.

Business ethics I think would be the issue more than business acumen.

I would have thought War Machine/Hordes to be a bigger contender than KoW though.

Yes, Warmachine has a larger market share.  But it's not the same kind of thing as Warhammer to my mind.  I'm sure I haven't expressed what I meant adequately with "fantasy battle game."

Generally Warmachine is more about small forces of super weapons rather than mass battles.  It's also more steam punk and is much farther from the Tolkien emulation field.  So I don't really see it as a contender for what Warhammer is or was, even though it certainly falls into the same category, it's more it's own thing, which is okay if that's what you want.  Personally I don't care for it and would like my fantasy battles one step removed from my ancients battles.

But then, I've never ever, ever been known to have strong and irrational biases right?

Quote from: TristramEvans;698783I like 8th, but not as much as 3rd, and that not as much as WAB, which was basically a cleaned-up 3e.

I don't have any trouble with monsters, Doonwheel and/or a small unit of Gutter Runners with poison/slings usually makes short work of them. I like that 8th emphasizes units over characters. Yes, from a marketing standpoint it's obviously designed that way to sell more models, but it does feel more like a massive battle to me bringing units of 30+ models into play.

The prices based on points value is just retarded. Raising the prices simultaneously with switching to plastics had to be one of the most cutthroat moves I've ever seen in the industry though, and I'm not going to be switching to 9th, though I do like that they are not going to be doing individual army books in that edition. Thinking of starting a thread just to point out all the alternative models available, though one thing I'll give GW credit for is some damnn pretty toys. Not all of them though, the Night Runners models are godawful: look like demented chimps.

I would not mind a thread pointing out alternative models, I just can't see myself being able to afford their shit on a regular basis for a while yet.

Warmachine is decidedly different from Warhammer, but I see what he's saying.  In our club, Warmachine is definitely gobbling up enthusiasm that I'm sure GW would rather us spend on Warhammer.

Yet we're moving more towards historicals these days anyways.  Hail Caesar!

Yeah I guess Warmachine is more a skirmish SciFi game, I wasn't really thinking as a direct comparison.

Has anyone played those Ad&D miniature battle rules from the 80s? Can't recall the name (battle zone?), but it never seemed very popular. Keep seeing the old box set for sale at one of the LGS for 15 though, and somewhat curious.

Quote from: Blackhand;699272Warmachine is decidedly different from Warhammer, but I see what he's saying.  In our club, Warmachine is definitely gobbling up enthusiasm that I'm sure GW would rather us spend on Warhammer.

Yet we're moving more towards historicals these days anyways.  Hail Caesar!

I'd like to play some historical wargames, but last time I checked, that club was on the same night as the roleplaying club.

Quote from: Ladybird;699295I'd like to play some historical wargames, but last time I checked, that club was on the same night as the roleplaying club.

I'm currently looking into do a Napoleonic Skaven army. Just because I think it would look awesome, and I could do Napoleon as a mole.

Quote from: TristramEvans;699287Yeah I guess Warmachine is more a skirmish SciFi game, I wasn't really thinking as a direct comparison.

Has anyone played those Ad&D miniature battle rules from the 80s? Can't recall the name (battle zone?), but it never seemed very popular. Keep seeing the old box set for sale at one of the LGS for 15 though, and somewhat curious.

Battlesystem.

I've been thinking of working up a system for doing the Greyhawk Wars in 28mm.  Something like "Warlords of Greyhawk".  The idea has got some enthusiasm in the club, and we could use all of our Warhammer minis.  

Totally unlicensed and for personal use only.  Yet, we can get it made into a not-for-sale hardcover, since we know the right people for a limited run (like, 5 copies).

Quote from: Ladybird;699295I'd like to play some historical wargames, but last time I checked, that club was on the same night as the roleplaying club.

Why compromise?  We do wargames on Sunday afternoon, followed by roleplay Sunday night.

Quote from: Blackhand;699312Why compromise?  We do wargames on Sunday afternoon, followed by roleplay Sunday night.

Different crowds, alas, and as I met the vast majority of people I know here through the roleplaying club, and it's my favourite hobby, it takes priority.

I don't have the time or, frankly, the inclination, to set up a new club for either.

We're having a lot of fun with Pike and Shotte.  I'm working on a Louis XIV French Army right now but playing my Empire as Elizbethan English in the mean time.

Battle System 1e and 2e are totally different games.  That said, I think 2e was the better version.  Sadly it needed more structure and support.  It's all well and good that you can covert D&D characters to the rules but if you can't balance them with a points system it creates issues.

But the rules themselves are fun and functional.  I've thought many times about doing a version for Dark Passages.  But since chasing the retroclone horde seems more than a little pointless I haven't bothered.

Really very few people have actually read Dark Passages anyhow.

I haven't given GW any money directly in years and years, and I'm glad to see more people give up on them every couple of years when they do crap like this.

Happy I'm not the only one who was undewhelmed by Kings of War.

I played my first game of the current WHFB a few weeks ago, rules seemed okay, some streamlining there.

Speaking of historical minis. It was interesting that some people were apparently getting Heroscape for the Redcoat and Rebel minis to play some sort of historical battles.

Quote from: Omega;699406Speaking of historical minis. It was interesting that some people were apparently getting Heroscape for the Redcoat and Rebel minis to play some sort of historical battles.

Nothing wrong with Heroscape minis.  Cheap, and better than all the D&D minis produced by Wizards.

I just don't care for the game.  I have a few samurai and other odds and ends.  They are cool.

I don't know if "underwhelmed" is how I'd describe my response to Kings of War.  It's draw backs are its design goals.  It really is fast playing and handles huge armies well.  With some practice it even works more or less okay for small games.  Sure the strategy at that point boils down to one big cheap unit to serve as an anchor / tar pit and lots of little units to try getting a numerical superiority to allow flank charges.

As a design I think it's a success.

But it's more abstract than I'd like and things like sieges and defended obstacles are wonky they work in play.  Note that I didn't say they make sense or look right or play out how one would think that they should but they do work in terms of a balanced abstraction.

And it's just so...bland...

Yes armies have their own character to an extent but there's sure a lot of Me 4+ Ms - De 4+ out there.