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Author Topic: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?  (Read 5399 times)

Persimmon

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2022, 09:42:09 PM »
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?

He kind of goes back and forth on that in the various writings published posthumously by his son.  Those writings also specifically reference breeding.  So yeah, you could go with the mad scientist thing and I think that might be the "origin," but there's plenty of evidence for just the good old fashioned method.  See, in particular, The Peoples of Middle Earth, which is Volume XII of The History of Middle Earth, edited by Christopher Tolkien.

Interestingly, in yet another instance of Amazon getting the lore wrong, they portray Ar-Pharazon with a big beard.  Tolkien stated that the Numenorean men did not have beards, as a racial characteristic.  This is from The Nature of Middle Earth, edited by Carl Hofstetter.  Of course by this logic Aragorn also should not have a beard so Peter Jackson gets docked as well.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2022, 11:27:33 PM »
Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Why? What's going to happen?

If it's bad, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.
If it's okay or merely different, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.
If it's good, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.

It's like you guys forgot how much bitching and moaning there was about Jackson's movies.

As for me, when I saw the thread title, I thought: "What? surely Aragorn can't be an elf?"
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Reckall

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2022, 12:01:04 PM »
Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Why? What's going to happen?

The first teaser back in February being obliterated on Youtube with 128K likes and TWO MILLION dislikes. Then from there things started to go really downhill.

And of course the crown jewel, that Amazon pulled down after, like, 4 hours. Too late.

For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2022, 08:06:29 PM »
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2022, 08:37:41 AM »
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2022, 12:23:03 PM »
What's incredibly offensive about this is that it is implicitly claiming that non-white cultures are inferior and unworthy of mention. They can't even go whole hog and write cultures with European aesthetics but an all-black populace, which would at least avoid the obvious tokenism. We had an entire cartoon like that back in the 90s, and it was great.

While in theory I agree with the idea of decolonization in the form of reconnecting with one's ancestors and history, as everyone is entitled to that and trying to destroy it is genocide. But this is just colonization and cultural appropriation from the other end. What kind of person thinks so lowly of themselves that they have to rewrite history to feel like they have any self-worth?

Like, I don't mind new writers introducing new nations and characters of Indian (or whatever) descent into the Arthurian mythos. The old stories have plenty of examples, like Prince Feirefiz of Zazamanc. So inventing a new Indian prince OC who travels on a great adventure that ultimately lands him a seat on the Round Table would be perfectly in keeping with the styles of the mythos. Some of his adventures can even be identical to other stories, since as a mythos these stories aren't consistent.

But racebending existing characters feels like both a stunning lack of imagination (OCs are like the first thing that a tween thinks of when doing fanfic and fanart) and petty envy. Whenever I read articles defending racebending of traditionally white characters to non-white, the text often drips with a subtext of envy, pettiness, and vengeful hatred. "We don't want new heroes who are uniquely ours and live alongside your heroes. We want to steal your heroes and destroy your history."

Reckall

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2022, 01:51:57 AM »
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer

The video I linked not a trailer. Try to watch it - I know, it is painful.

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didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

They can't. They spent a billion on it. :D

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People will watch it.

Sure. Who doesn't love a trainwreck?

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And the Tolkien fanboys

...Who, right now are "racist, misogynist incels" - yes, even married black females...

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will watch it multiple times

This is a given: this show will generate memes for decades. I'll see it as soon as it hits the stream. I already have the outline of a Hitler Parody in mind.

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so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it.

They are already doing that under each and every trailer, interview, YouTube video, paid fluff piece on magazines who - lo! - have undisclosed distribution deals with Amazon... Basically, the main point of criticism is "this is fan fiction - and a bad one at that".

Ironically, Reddit is RPG.net in this. The North Korea vibes are strong there.

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And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

...So that more people will obliterate it. My guess is that the premiere will do good numbers, the reviews in MSM will praise it to high heaven, then silence.

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Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for

If so, Amazon has the best publicity ever. They managed to offend everybody: fans, normies, PoC, LGBTQ+... The level of hate this show is getting from every corner of the World (literally) in not simply the highest ever: it is unprecedented.

You haven't a clue about what is happening here, do you?  ;)
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

oggsmash

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2022, 09:54:46 AM »
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!

  Ratings say you are completely wrong.  You assume nerdfury requires actual viewing of the product to rage out about it.  Bad assumption.

Ruprecht

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2022, 02:52:53 PM »
I think Tolkien imagined him as white, the readers generally get that vision as well, but does anyone have a clip of the actual text when Aragorn is first introduced?
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Wrath of God

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2022, 04:26:16 PM »
Tolkien described him as white.
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Tallifer

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2022, 07:45:33 AM »
Christopher Tolkien closely guarded the legacy of his father, but it seems that the present heirs have less regard. I bet Italian PM and Tolkien superfanGiorgia Meloni prefers the traditional interpretation of Tolkien's works. ;)

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2022, 09:52:55 AM »
Do people not know that Far Harad exists? It's the canonical afrofantasy continent of Arda. Sure, Tolkien didn't explore it in his lifetime because he was writing a mythos for England with Middle Earth, but it still exists. You don't need to racebend white characters to meet your representation quota.

I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

oggsmash

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2022, 06:35:04 PM »
Do people not know that Far Harad exists? It's the canonical afrofantasy continent of Arda. Sure, Tolkien didn't explore it in his lifetime because he was writing a mythos for England with Middle Earth, but it still exists. You don't need to racebend white characters to meet your representation quota.

I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

  there is a group out there MUCH more into erasing euros than elevating afros.  It is far, far easier to destroy than to create.

I

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2022, 01:16:45 AM »


I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

Yeah, they could make an Imaro movie, but they think that wouldn't be commercially viable enough for them; they need a bigger IP like the Lord of the Rings to blackwash so they can virtue-signal while (hopefully) making lots of money at the same time.

They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

jhkim

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Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2022, 09:23:58 PM »
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.