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Author Topic: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?  (Read 6192 times)

Justin Alexander

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2012, 07:05:26 PM »
Quote from: The Traveller;602106
violation glove (hand hi-tech)
For purposes of brainer moves, mere skin contact counts as time and intimacy.

Looks like a big ol' rape fist to me. Yes I read the whole thing, I read quickly.

Tell me that's not creepy.


The only thing I find creepy is the guy who associates "mere skin contact" with "rape". You are an RPGNet Tangency poster and I claim my five pounds. ;)

Brainers are "weird psycho psychic mindfucks"; telepaths and mind-controllers. The violation glove is amping up their ability to perform deep brain scans and in-brain puppet strings. These abilities generally require time and physical intimacy ("mutual intimacy like holding them in your arms, or 1-sided intimacy like they're restrained to a table"); the glove is making it possible for them to just put their hand on you and fuck with your brain.

That is rather creepy, but not in the sexual way that you seem personally obsessed with.
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The Traveller

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2012, 07:17:08 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602120
The only thing I find creepy is the guy who associates "mere skin contact" with "rape". You are an RPGNet Tangency poster and I claim my five pounds. ;)

Brainers are "weird psycho psychic mindfucks"; telepaths and mind-controllers. The violation glove is amping up their ability to perform deep brain scans and in-brain puppet strings. These abilities generally require time and physical intimacy ("mutual intimacy like holding them in your arms, or 1-sided intimacy like they're restrained to a table"); the glove is making it possible for them to just put their hand on you and fuck with your brain.

That is rather creepy, but not in the sexual way that you seem personally obsessed with.

No need to get defensive, I'm not the one who invented the sex moves game.
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One Horse Town

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2012, 08:21:44 PM »
Quote from: noisms;602104
And there are genre expectations associated with that!


Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?

Justin Alexander

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« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2012, 09:32:12 PM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;602123
Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?


Go back, re-read the post you failed to read the first time, and try again.
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silva

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« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2012, 09:36:11 PM »
Quote from: The Traveller
Anyway yeah I'd probably have to see more specific examples of mechanics one way or the other, glowing recommendations (from people I admittedly respect) aren't very meaningful. Unknown Armies had a revolutionary sanity system, Exalted brought the battle wheel to the table, CP2020 was one of the best known systems to ground roleplaying in the skill+stat+dice mechanic, all of these I understand back to front, marvellous innovations.

How specifically does the game inspire and deal with in-group conflict, how does it promote harsh responses to situations of scarcity, give me numbers! I can work with numbers better than referrals.

Thats the problem right there. The game is not about "numbers". Differently from the mechanics cited, the "moves" structure tap directly into the fiction.

Sorry if I cant explaing it better. Im really tired, Ill complement it later..
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 12:31:32 AM by silva »

CRKrueger

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« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2012, 02:50:30 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602099
Battlebabe Sex Move: If you and another character have sex, your Hx with them on your sheet goes immediately to +3, and they immediately get +1 to their Hx with you on their sheet. If that brings their Hx with you to +4, they reset it to +1 instead, and so mark experience.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;602099
Only 3 sex moves (angel, chopper, driver) have anything to do with Hx at all (and one of those is Hx neutral -- one character gains Hx while the other loses an equal amount). The other 8 sex moves (battlebabe, brainer, driver, hardholder, hocus, operator, savvyhead, skinner) have nothing to do with Hx at all.

You meant Angel instead of Battlebabe up top I think.  I'll admit that not everyone can fuck their way to better marksmanship, only 3 of the classes.  :D
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:34:08 AM by CRKrueger »
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DKChannelBoredom

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2012, 02:51:39 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;602123
Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?


Remember this handsome couple from Mad Max 2?

I'm pretty sure there were some kinda crazy sex moves involved.

And in the less (far far less) iconic end of the genre, there's an odd male-rape scene in The New Barbarians. The most scary part of that movie is still the golf cars that the evil marauders ride around in.

So no, it not a must in the PA genre, but it's there.
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DKChannelBoredom

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« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2012, 02:54:06 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;602153
I assume you didn't mean to contradict yourself and meant 4.  I'll admit that not everyone can fuck their way to better marksmanship, only 4 of the classes.  :D


A bit like you can kill orcs in D&D and raise your "Knowledge: The Planes" with the xp gained :)
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CRKrueger

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« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2012, 02:58:43 AM »
Silva cuts them out, do any of the AW fans here actually play with the Sex Moves, or are you defending them just because you don't have the balls to say "Yeah Baker's a weird fucker, who cares, he can make a great game."
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:00:46 AM by CRKrueger »
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

noisms

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2012, 04:49:25 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;602123
Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?


It does help if you actually read things properly, you know. Traveller was talking about the expectation of in-group conflict and lack of broad social cooperation and hinting it was unrealistic. I pointed out it's a genre expectation.
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DKChannelBoredom

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2012, 05:52:40 AM »
The sex moves' been used in Apocalypse World games that I have been part of. They haven't featured prominently, rarely between characters and, obviously, never described in great detail. Like JA says, it's very much a behind-closed-doors thing, just as described in the rules.

And it hasn't been any weirder than when characters punch out each other teeth or takes shots at one another.

And I also think Baker is a bit of a weird fucker, who has made at least one great roleplaying game.
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Cocain is more popular than rp so there is bound to be some crossover.

noisms

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« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2012, 05:56:13 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;602156
Silva cuts them out, do any of the AW fans here actually play with the Sex Moves, or are you defending them just because you don't have the balls to say "Yeah Baker's a weird fucker, who cares, he can make a great game."


Er...I think we've all pretty much said that, haven't we?
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The Traveller

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« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2012, 10:37:15 AM »
Quote from: silva;602131
Thats the problem right there. The game is not about "numbers". Differently from the mechanics cited, the "moves" structure tap directly into the fiction.

Sorry if I cant explaing it better. Im really tired, Ill complement it later..

Thanks yeah, concrete examples are usually better than anything else.
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Justin Alexander

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« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2012, 04:28:49 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;602153
You meant Angel instead of Battlebabe up top I think.  I'll admit that not everyone can fuck their way to better marksmanship, only 3 of the classes.  :D


I did indeed. Thanks for the correction!

Quote from: The Traveller;602179
Thanks yeah, concrete examples are usually better than anything else.


One of the things I find specifically interesting about Apocalypse World is that it provides a very specific game structure for the GM in a way that most RPGs haven't for the past 30 years.

I've seen a couple people GM it: The first guy just ran it like any other RPG and it was OK; looked like any other session ran by that guy. The other guy actually did what the rulebook told him to do and it was amazing.

Apocalypse World gives the GM three things: Agendas, Principles, and Moves.

The agendas basically say, "Follow the principles, obey the rules, and be honest to yourself and to your prep." The principles are a good collection of generic and/or specific GM advice. It's good shit, but nothing special.

But then there are the moves. And what Apocalypse World says is: These are the thing you can do as a GM. You can't do anything else. "Whenever there's a pause in the conversation and everyone looks to you to say something, choose one of these things and say it."

My first reaction as a GM was to say, "What the fuck? I AM THE GOD OF THIS TABLE AND ALL SHALL KNEEL BEFORE ME!" Or something like that. But what I'm telling you is that if you lay that attitude aside and just do what the game tells you, the combination of moves and the threats that you've prepped will create a unique game. It's not the One True Way of gamemastering, but it might be the One True Way of playing Apocalypse World.

For example: The driver says, "Fuck, I really need to patch up my axle before it snaps completely. Can I find any tools in this hell hole?" My common instincts as a GM would probably lead me to say something like, "Sure. Poking around the garage in his hardhold yields a rusty toolkit."

But hang on a sec: Check your move list. Does it say anything about "give the PCs what they want". Nope. I'm going to have to make them buy ("you ask around and they point you at Bobby 'n Steve; they run the hardhold's garage and might be willing to let you borrow their tools, but they're going to want something in return; Bobby spots your dead wife's locket hanging around your neck, 'That's purty.''"). Or may I'll put someone in a spot ("you scrounge up some tools, but when you come back you find a bunch of sheet metal rat-kids clambering all over your ride; they're scraping the paint job up something fierce").

And, just like that, the game's structure has forced me into reinforcing the bleak, post-apocalyptic despair of the implied setting.

The analogy I draw is the guy who wants to run a "hexcrawl", but doesn't want to deal with daily movement rates; doesn't want to have the PCs explore; and doesn't want to roll for random encounters. And then he wonders why the hexcrawl doesn't work for him.
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CRKrueger

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2012, 08:15:41 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602209
One of the things I find specifically interesting about Apocalypse World is that it provides a very specific game structure for the GM in a way that most RPGs haven't for the past 30 years.
{snip}
And, just like that, the game's structure has forced me into reinforcing the bleak, post-apocalyptic despair of the implied setting.
This I will agree with, it's a very unique approach.

The player does have some metagame choices to make, but there is no shared narration.  The GM interprets all results, the players have no control over anything but their characters.  The idea of "GM moves" that enforce the setting is a, well not sure how to put it, but a kinda Storygamey way to run a roleplaying game (which is why it gets flagged as a storygame, it uses the lingo, but not really the mechanics), but it's not a storygame.

In a completely traditional game, the GM has to be fair and impartial - since he can really do anything, if he decides to construct a particular story for the characters, then it becomes a boring railroad.  Normally rules that limit the GM are from the point of view of shared narration, character empowerment, all that stuff that drives trad guys crazy.

In this game, the GM has limits, but they aren't put there for the purpose of handcuffs, they're put there for the purpose of focusing the GM's creativity on the setting in question.

People always say absolute freedom inhibits creativity, limits enhance it, well that is the concept behind the "GM moves".  It's not a "show me where the bad GM touched you" kind of game at all.

It's unfortunate that first of all, this game was made by Vincent Baker (which is automatically going to turn people off from his history), and two that the jackass couldn't stop himself from putting in the sex moves and the gimp on the cover, because I do think this is a very intriguing design.  I think the different *World hacks will be interesting.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 08:27:50 PM by CRKrueger »
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans