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Author Topic: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?  (Read 6206 times)

CRKrueger

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2012, 02:27:51 PM »
Quote from: The Traveller;602040
I love refitting good settings as much as the next man but its the kind of thing that would make me wonder where else the creepiness has slopped over. Is the setting really that good? What makes it unique from any number of similar settings?


As Tommy says, one of the main stats is keyed toward the sex moves, also the sex moves are one main way to increase Hx, or history with a character, which is one of the main ways of getting experience.  Yes, I can fuck my way to better marksmanship.

Look at the cover, and tell me what the game is about:

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silva

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2012, 02:35:10 PM »
Quote
As Tommy says, one of the main stats is keyed toward the sex moves
Nope. its keyed towards social interaction (persuasion, manipulation, seduction, etc). Have you never rolled fast talk in your games ?

Quote
also the sex moves are one main way to... getting experience
Also, not true. Its one of the various ways to get experience, and actually is far from being the most effective.

Thus, the sex part can be purged from the game with no prejudice.I already tried it, and can assure you of that. Have you, Krueger?

Again, I sugest a look on the character classes. And compare the amount of sex moves with the other ones. ;)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:41:56 PM by silva »

The Traveller

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2012, 02:39:34 PM »
Quote from: silva;602045
Trav, the way I see it, the point of the game is not the setting, but the gameplay. The setting is just one more tool to help promote an intended playstyle. The same can be said for the sex mechanics, the barter mechanics, the relationship mechanics, the GM mechanics, etc - all this is in place to enforce a gritty, dramatic, hard-choices/consequences, player-driven gameplay.

Ah that's awful. I mean the setting is where real creativity comes into play - this bullshit about character classes (from the linked PDF) like drug dealer, gang member, gunman, psyker, wheelman, I may as well be playing almost any other post apocalypse or indeed cyberpunk game system. Where's the wily bushman? You have any idea how many people these days are picking up some pretty hardcore bushcraft skills courtesy of Bear Grylls and Ray Mears?

An apocalypse in the red light district is what this is, survive downtown Amsterdam. I've lived in downtown Amsterdam, its really not that bad.

I mean look at this, the dope peddling "angel" picture is a black man. The "battle babe", Dangerous & sexy: when you enter into a charged situation, roll+hot. What? How hot is someone smeared in the grime of the end of the world, ducking and weaving behind cover. Anyway everyone knows you shoot the hot ones first, they had to work harder to go up the ranks rather than winding up some gangbanger's plaything.

Quote from: silva;602045
About the Sex mchanics, they are in place to help convey the sense of scarcity the game aims for, and make it a scape valve, or a barter product.

I get that, but there's nothing in this game which would interest me to be honest, just from what I've read so far. Originality, creativity, that's interesting. This, I don't know enough about it to decide whether or not its some creeper's thinly veiled exhibitionism. But it doesn't look good.
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silva

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2012, 02:44:23 PM »
I see implied/brush stroken settings bother you. No problem with that, Trav. The game is simply not for your tastes. I too, like explicit/well developed settings but open a exception to this game since it enforces a sandboxy playstyle that I like.

I just wanted to make it clear about the sex moves.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:48:51 PM by silva »

DKChannelBoredom

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2012, 02:46:49 PM »
It's not that I can't see where the Apocalypse World sceptisism comes from.

Yes, there's sex in there (but so is there in Over The Edge, Unknown Armies, Vampire, etc) and rules for it (but nowhere does it say, that you should sit around describing the actual fucking, neither in general nor detail) and the writing is acquired taste and more-of-a-badass-than-thou in its style in a rather over the top kinda way.

But that doesn't change, that there is a really good set of rules in there, that really caters high tension and dramatic roleplaying, just like the people who have actually played the game in this thread vouches for.
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One Horse Town

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2012, 02:47:40 PM »
In the words of the author - "System matters."

If it's there, it was put there for a reason.

That's creepy. Like much of his other work.

silva

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« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2012, 02:52:55 PM »
Encumbrance rules are there for a reason

Do you always use it? If not, did it change or killed the game as intended for you?

I see the Sex moves are more important thematically then encumbrance ones. But, on the other hand, AW has a lot more other things in place to enforce its theme, so..

Its not at all like The Mountain Witch' Trust rules or D&D' classes and levels or Shadowrun's Essence - THESE are rules that, if ignored, crush the game. Sex moves are not like that.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:59:35 PM by silva »

silva

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« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2012, 03:07:11 PM »
Quote
Look at the cover, and tell me what the game is about:

Hmm..  Scarcity ?

Thanks for pointing out. I havent made the connection until now. just thought it was a cool and evocative cover and nothing more. ;)

Ladybird

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2012, 03:09:21 PM »
Quote from: silva;602078
Hmm..  Scarcity ?


How, exactly, is it about scarcity?
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silva

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« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2012, 03:13:51 PM »
The woman is searching a pot for valuables. And she is so poor she has no clothes to wear.

What else could it be about?

The Traveller

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« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2012, 03:19:54 PM »
Quote from: silva;602082
The woman is searching a pot for valuables. And she is so poor she has no clothes to wear.

What else could it be about?
She seems to be inspecting the filter on what looks like a crappy old Sov-bloc gas mask



No idea why anyone would be using those after the apocalypse though, they've all expired and are out of production as a primitive design in any case.
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silva

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« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2012, 03:30:29 PM »
Yeah, or she may be looking for condo to have a fuck.

noisms

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« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2012, 03:36:58 PM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;602046
I love how people who try to make out that AW is a traditional game always seem to pretend that sexy sex moves aren't part of the game.


Who's pretending they're not part of the game? I said they could be easily excised. My group is living proof of that, because we never used them and it was still the most fun we've had with a game in ages.

Even if you do use them, it's not as if you're sitting around stroking yourself through your pants while you describe to each other in explicit detail what is going on. The most that needs to happen is somebody saying "And then sex is had" or words to that effect. It can even just be implied.

I think the confusion arises because - surprise, surprise - the people who are sceptical about the rules tend not to go to the trouble of reading them, and interpret the word "move" incorrectly. If you say "sex move" then it sounds as if the actions need to be described. It's not the case: "move" is just in-game jargon for, basically, doing something that has some in game consequence. To generalise, having sex usually means that characters end up having "history" with each other, which has some effects on dice rolls and is one minor route to bumping up XP.

If people were making a huge fuss about the sex moves at the time AW was released, that's probably just a reflection of the fact that people on rpg.net like to brag about how liberated they are. It may even be a reflection of the fact that Vincent Baker isn't afraid of courting controversy in the interest of selling game books. Doesn't detract from the fact that the game is a brilliant play even if nobody so much as mentions the word "sex" during an entire campaign.
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The Traveller

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« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »
Quote from: noisms;602088
Doesn't detract from the fact that the game is a brilliant play even if nobody so much as mentions the word "sex" during an entire campaign.
I'm still trying to pin this down. What makes the game brilliant, which specific mechanics? I mean the general idea of influencing gameplay through mechanics is hardly innovative, D&D did it from the start by giving more XP for treasure than killing monsters.
"These children are playing with dark and dangerous powers!"
"What else are you meant to do with dark and dangerous powers?"
A concise overview of GNS theory.
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If you care about character arcs or any, any, any lit 101 stuff, I'd choose a different game.

silva

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Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2012, 04:11:06 PM »
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I'm still trying to pin this down. What makes the game brilliant ? which specific mechanics?

For our group its a twofold reason:

1. Quickness and smoothness in play. When you create a char in 10 min, prep an adventure in 5 min, and resolve a combat in another 5 min rolling just once or twice, the gameplay gets ultra-focused on the roleplaying/fiction part, and not on math intensive tactical mini-games. As a result, what you accomplish in a single 3 hours session is much much more than most other games out there.

2. Player-driven, sandbox gameplay built-in in the mechanics. The way the "moves" structure works guarantees that the situations that unfold are dependent on the players´ choices and actions, at the same time giving a tense feelinf to it (since the most mundane roll can have a bad consequence - all rolls have consequences). Its Fallout style "choice-consequence" gameplay at its best. A stone falling on a lake and producing ripples all the time.

The rules for intra-party drama are just the cherry in the cake for me. As is the way the different mechanics fall into place smoothly with one another, the stylish classes concepts (playbooks), and the way the author states explicitly the way the game is meant to be played, and provides procedures for that.

I hear its very similar to old Gygaxian OD&D in these last points. But cant know for sure since I never played OD&D.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:20:21 PM by silva »