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Author Topic: Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?  (Read 10813 times)

Imperator

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #210 on: January 22, 2012, 05:23:36 AM »
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;507693
the moving of threads seems to be a new thing.

If you use the New Posts feature, those measures are irrelevant because all threads are rpesented regardless the place they are.
My name is Ramón Nogueras. Running now Vampire: the Masquerade (Giovanni Chronicles IV for just 3 players), and itching to resume my Call of Cthulhu campaign (The Sense of the Sleight-of-Hand Man).

One Horse Town

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #211 on: January 22, 2012, 06:07:39 AM »
Quote from: Ladybird;507704
* Opens AW.pdf *
* Searches for text string "emulat" *
* String not found *



Precisely.

Ladybird

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #212 on: January 22, 2012, 07:51:47 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;507715
Precisely.


So, what's the conclusion that we've came to?

* AW does not do post-apoc genre emulation (I think we can all agree on this, right? The setting is post-apocalyptic, which I think we can also agree on?)
* AW does not claim to do post-apoc genre emulation

Hardly an earth-shattering revelation.
one two FUCK YOU

noisms

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #213 on: January 22, 2012, 08:33:38 AM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;507608
Totally! I think he's even gone on record in thinking that sex moves is great post apocalyptic genre emulation!


Why does being "great genre emulation" have anything to do with whether or not something is a role playing game or an "other game", or whether RPG Pundit will like it?

Quote from: boulet;507699
It's been going on for a while, at least a year.


And it's idiotic and petty beyond belief. This fucking asinine inverse-snobbery about story-games and constant bickering between trolls is making this site a massive ballache. It's impossible to have a sensible discussion about anything without it devolving into either a rant against indie gamers or Part 37 in some long-running feud. It's even worse than The Big Purple, and that's saying something.
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One Horse Town

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #214 on: January 22, 2012, 08:45:16 AM »
Quote from: Ladybird;507720
So, what's the conclusion that we've came to?

* AW does not do post-apoc genre emulation (I think we can all agree on this, right? The setting is post-apocalyptic, which I think we can also agree on?)
* AW does not claim to do post-apoc genre emulation

Hardly an earth-shattering revelation.


and that i doubt Pundit would like it if it was written by someone else as he's mentioned emulation as a key to what he believes is an RPG.

Rincewind1

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #215 on: January 22, 2012, 08:45:22 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;507687
Did you somehow miss the posts where I noted that you were a self-admitted troll?

But it is nice of you to, yet again, admit that you're trolling. And I must congratulate you on your success: You keep getting suckers like Peregrin to bite again and again.

Quick question: Are you self-admitting to trolling in every thread you post to here on RPGSite, most threads you post to, some threads you post to, or just this one?

Oh, I am not trolling - trolling is arguing for sake of arguing, while I am a joker - joking for the sake of joking. Then again, always better to get hot and with steam running out of ears rather then laugh from a joke!

PS. I still had not read about those mysterious GM energies and how to channel them. Care to finally inform us?

Quote
Dicing mechanisms aren't games in and of themselves. Their function is to add some objectivity to fuzzy subjective stuff and prevent arguments about what happens in the game. And a game can exist apart from them. What I meant was the mechanics (the functional game bits) have drifted away from the text and dicing mechanisms and into a social structure that is a different game than the one presented in the text.

Still, as I said - if you take all mechanic from RPG, it's psychodrama. Not an RPG.


Quote
As for being a narration and problem generating machine, that's what GMs do. They provide adversity. Sometimes it's in the guise of a "world" or exploration site with challenges (like D&D), and other times it's based on encounters that take place in explicit scenes (like a lot of White-Wolf scenarios). But in all games GMs use the game structure to create adversity to make like interesting for the characters. That is a creative process in and of itself, as is unraveling all of those bits in play with the players helping create the imaginary stuff. I don't get why you're writing that off as pure machination. If you don't like the metes and bounds for the GM set by the game, don't play it. But just because someone decided "Hey, I'd like to read literature on composing bebop, not on composing 6 styles of jazz" it doesn't mean their endeavors are any less creative.

Here I disagree. GMs provide much more then just problems and narrations - at the very basics, they provide the antagonists, the people who will evoke a change in the heroes. GMing is a lot more then just providing opposition, but that's a really long talk. As for the latter - see a good RPG, imo, should put as little actual constraint on the GM, while providing him with as many useful tools, as possible.


Quote
If you really view the traditional GM-does-whatever role as superior to all others in terms of creative output, then I don't think we're going to agree on anything anytime soon, though. But I'm more worried about folks having an enjoyable time than I am reaching the pinnacle of GM-dom, so if you want to view the MoC in AW as something different, than that's your prerogative.  

So do I, Peregrin. But the fact that I can have great fun playing something, does not make it

1) RPG
or
2) a Good RPG.

Apocalypse World, at best, is a poor RPG.

Quote from: One Horse Town;507724
and that i doubt Pundit would like it if it was written by someone else as he's mentioned emulation as a key to what he believes is an RPG.

If you are not using an RPG for emulation, then what the hell do you use it for?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 09:11:46 AM by Rincewind1 »
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don't Like You thread should be closed

noisms

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #216 on: January 22, 2012, 11:11:09 AM »
Quote from: Rincewind1;507725
If you are not using an RPG for emulation, then what the hell do you use it for?


I think what was being talked about was "genre emulation", which isn't the same as plain emulation.

Apocalypse World arguably doesn't emulate the "post-apocalypse genre" (if such a thing exists), but it does emulate being somebody in a post-apocalyptic world.

As an aside, how did you go from being relatively positive about the game to saying it's "at best a poor RPG" in the space of one thread? On the first page you seemed to like it, and said you were only put off by the writings of the author on the Forge and the fact that people at story-games cum in their pants at the very mention of it. Now you seem to be of the view that it's rubbish. Make your mind up.
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Rincewind1

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #217 on: January 22, 2012, 11:38:59 AM »
Quote from: noisms;507740
I think what was being talked about was "genre emulation", which isn't the same as plain emulation.

Apocalypse World arguably doesn't emulate the "post-apocalypse genre" (if such a thing exists), but it does emulate being somebody in a post-apocalyptic world.

As an aside, how did you go from being relatively positive about the game to saying it's "at best a poor RPG" in the space of one thread? On the first page you seemed to like it, and said you were only put off by the writings of the author on the Forge and the fact that people at story-games cum in their pants at the very mention of it. Now you seem to be of the view that it's rubbish. Make your mind up.

First I'll start with a second paragraph:

2) Because it may be a decent game, but a bad Role Playing Game. Just like boardgames are awesome, but if you try to play them In Character, you probably will have a lot of fun, but at the same time, strictly speaking - the game will become terrible as far as strategy goes.

1) Actually, a strong presence of a GM would be much better to emulate being a person in Post - Apocalyptic World. Especially a really, really mean bastard of a GM. The kind that'll throw the encounters that aren't matched to the party's strength, but are made to represent an area that players just ventured into. And he won't give no special bonuses neither.

Because in Post - Apo, the world is out to get you, and it's not even trying. And you have to fight back.

But honestly, this had been going in circles. All my comments on this game were made either here, or earlier. If you play it and have fun - that's great. But is it an RPG, or is there a GM? That's debatable. I think it can be the former, but there definitely is no latter.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 11:49:15 AM by Rincewind1 »
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don't Like You thread should be closed

noisms

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #218 on: January 22, 2012, 11:49:10 AM »
Quote from: Rincewind1;507743
First I'll start with a second paragraph:

2) Because it is a decent game, but a bad Role Playing Game. Just like boardgames are awesome, but if you try to play them In Character, you probably will have a lot of fun, but at the same time, strictly speaking - the game will become terrible as far as strategy goes.

1) Actually, a strong presence of a GM would be much better to emulate being a person in Post - Apocalyptic World. Especially a really, really mean bastard of a GM. The kind that'll throw the encounters that aren't matched to the party's strength, but are made to represent an area that players just ventured into. And he won't give no special bonuses neither.

Because in Post - Apo, the world is out to get you, and it's not even trying. And you have to fight back.


You know what? That's a good point and a fair comment.

Quote

But honestly, this had been going in circles. All my comments on this game were made either here, or earlier. If you play it and have fun - that's great. But is it an RPG, or is there a GM? That's debatable. I think it can be the former, but there definitely is no latter.


Only if you take a restrictive view of what a GM is. It's indisputably a role playing game, though. You play roles, and it's a game - dead simple.
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silva

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« Reply #219 on: January 22, 2012, 11:52:48 AM »
Quote
1) Actually, a strong presence of a GM would be much better to emulate being a person in Post - Apocalyptic World. Especially a really, really mean bastard of a GM. The kind that'll throw the encounters that aren't matched to the party's strength, but are made to represent an area that players just ventured into. And he won't give no special bonuses neither.

Because in Post - Apo, the world is out to get you, and it's not even trying. And you have to fight back.

But Rince, thats EXACTLY what the author suggests all over the text. Eg:

Quote
Apocalypse World, page 96:

SAY THIS FIRST AND OFTEN
To the players: your job is to play your characters as though
they were real people, in whatever circumstances they find
themselves..  My job as MC is to treat your characters as though they were real people too, and to act as though Apocalypse World were real.

Are you sure youve read the game text, man ?

Rincewind1

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #220 on: January 22, 2012, 12:06:15 PM »
Quote from: noisms;507744
Only if you take a restrictive view of what a GM is. It's indisputably a role playing game, though. You play roles, and it's a game - dead simple.

I'll go and be a bit of a bastard, and rely upon my Coke Pickles argument - if Coca Cola started selling pickles in cans branded Coca Cola, of the same size and shape as Coke cans, would we be eating pickles or drinking Coke?

If we do improv theatre, and roll a dice to select who gets what role, it's improved theatre or role - playing? We play roles, and it's technically a game.

Actually, I think I am rather less - restrictive about GM's role, then AW and the school of design it comes from. See, ironically, this all goes back to perhaps one of the most grog arguments - is a GM a "God", or should he be just a referee for the rules? Except now it's not about the emulation mechanics, but storytelling mechanics.

And you know, I could just don't give a damn about the case of misinterpreted game genre identity. People have fun playing it - grand. But the recent pushing down the throat an idea that this is how RPGs SHOULD be, that this is the One True Way we had always waited for, that this solves the problem with GMing, that this is where you can be a GM without any need for training, that this is where the players have true control over decisions of their characters, that  this are the RPGs where there's no railroading...while it is for me debatable if they are RPGs at all, is what gets my panties in a twist.

Quote from: silva;507746
But Rince, thats EXACTLY what the author suggests all over the text. Eg:

Are you sure youve read the game text, man ?


I am pretty positive, yes. And that's RPG 101 - hardly a discovery, but good point, actually.

Then, after the author wrote that, he goes on about:

Quote
ALWAYS SAY
• What the principles demand (as follow).
• What the rules demand.
• What your prep demands.
• What honesty demands.
Apocalypse World divvies the conversation up in a strict and
pretty traditional way. e players’ job is to say what their
characters say and undertake to do, first and exclusively; to say
what their characters think, feel and remember, also exclusively;
and to answer your questions about their characters’ lives and
surroundings. Your job as MC is to say everything else: everything
about the world, and what everyone in the whole damned
world says and does except the players’ characters.
Always be scrupulous, even generous, with the truth. e players
depend on you to give them real information they can really use,
about their characters’ surroundings, about what’s happening
when and where. Same with the game’s rules: play with integrity
110 - APOCALYPSE WORLD and an open hand. e players are entitled to the full benefits
of their moves, their rolls, their characters’ strengths and
resources. Don’t chisel them, don’t weasel, don’t play gotcha.
If you’re playing the game as the players’ adversary, your
decision-making responsibilities and your rules-oversight
constitute a conflict of interests. Play the game with the players,
not against them.


What the rules demand? What the honesty demands? But I, the GM, are the rules. I am the honesty. Sometimes you will NOT know everything that will happen once you do something - Hercules in Disney movie didn't exactly know that the result of catching the disk would be that he'd collapse the village's agora. If the heroes meet a bunch of strangers in the desert, approaching them may result in shooting - and if the heroes kill them, it may turn out this had been an important diplomatic caravan from another town. But there's no way to know that. Hells - if they shoot someone, unless they later chop their heads off, they won't be 100% sure if they are dead or not. It's a piece of advice I picked up from my years of Call of Cthulhu - always stick to describing what characters see/feel/hear - what they know. No more, no less. I sometimes hid certainly modifiers from players, that will result on basis of their descriptions - sometimes to hinder them. But more often, to give them a pleasant surprise - they described how they aim for the orc's chieftain's head, I give them a +1 modifier for description to roll, as well as double damage if they roll really well without that modifier.

If AW is an RPG, it's one with GM's role very, very castrated.

And that's something I won't approve. Because as I had said countless times - people will be dicks, no matter the set of rules. Don't play with douchebags, and don't expect a set of rules to fix them - it'll be an illusion, which will shatter, sooner or later. If you don't trust the guy that GMs to give you supercool experience, that he will cheat you out of it one way or the other - don't play with him.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 12:15:04 PM by Rincewind1 »
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don't Like You thread should be closed

noisms

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #221 on: January 22, 2012, 12:20:42 PM »
Quote from: Rincewind1;507750
I'll go and be a bit of a bastard, and rely upon my Coke Pickles argument - if Coca Cola started selling pickles in cans branded Coca Cola, of the same size and shape as Coke cans, would we be eating pickles or drinking Coke?

If we do improv theatre, and roll a dice to select who gets what role, it's improved theatre or role - playing? We play roles, and it's technically a game.


But that's not what AW does, and it's a wee bit disingenuous to pretend it is.

You have a 'class', with stats, hit points and skills, though the terminology is different. You get some control over narration, but the MC is largely the one who tells you what's going on and decides how events unfold. It still feels pretty much like coke in a coke can to me. Unless I've been playing some other version of AW that you haven't.
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Rincewind1

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Apocalypse World: really awesome or am I missing something here ?
« Reply #222 on: January 22, 2012, 12:44:26 PM »
Quote from: noisms;507753
But that's not what AW does, and it's a wee bit disingenuous to pretend it is.

You have a 'class', with stats, hit points and skills, though the terminology is different. You get some control over narration, but the MC is largely the one who tells you what's going on and decides how events unfold. It still feels pretty much like coke in a coke can to me. Unless I've been playing some other version of AW that you haven't.

In Arkham Horror you have

1) Classes
2) Stats
3) Hit Points
4) Skills

Though as well, terminology is a bit different.

The board is largely the one which tells you what's going on and decides how events unfold.

Is Arkham Horror therefore an RPG, or a board game?

I understand what point you tried to make, but I am afraid I'll have to make just a similar one like I did back in 4e discussion - you have classes, but they don't give you an idea how good you are at various stuff, but rather what stuff you can do to advance the story, the hit - points, using the Countdown counter can lead to absurds if played RAW (again, a thread where I read about a gunshot to the head while sleeping, and how to treat it from MC perspective - with most advice being that a guy actually survived, because story), stats are very restrictive (why can't I be a Battlebabe which is bad at shooting and being pretty, but still considers himself a Battlebabe?), the MC doesn't just narrates, he uses moves, and it goes on and on and on.

And all the talk about how rules are supposed to give you the game you desire, only adds to my spite. Both game must be good, and a GM must be good. Or arguments how fudging is the Great Evil of GMing, and it should be just replaced with story - based mechanic. And the whole Cult of RAW, which is RPGs equivalent of Plagues of Egypt, being glorified in it's design.

But enough of that. I ranted all I needed. If you like AW and Forgies - play them. Just don't try to push them down my throat as the greatest thing since sliced bread. And for the note - I actually played them, and liked some (Well, Inspectres, at least). I tried DitV, and it was meh though.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 12:54:55 PM by Rincewind1 »
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don't Like You thread should be closed

Justin Alexander

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« Reply #223 on: January 23, 2012, 12:08:20 AM »
Quote from: silva;507746
Are you sure youve read the game text, man ?


This is a guy who claims that a rulebook which contains an entire chapter specifically dedicated to the GM changing the rules is, in fact, secretly insisting that the GM is not allowed to change the rules.

He's trolling you.
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brunz

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« Reply #224 on: January 23, 2012, 12:23:20 AM »
I've been trying to get an education in new games, and new styles of game lately. So I looked at some character sheets, or whatever they're called in the case of Apocalypse World, and... aaaargh. :confused: What a nightmare! :eek: It might be a great game, if you play it, but that scared me off, everything else aside.