I was wondering..

Has someone considered applying the resolution model from AW (success > hard choice > shit happens) to other games ?

Im in love with Runequest 6 right now and cant wait to start a new campaign with it. BUT after we adopted AW for our current Shadowrun campaign the group consensus in that our games got faster, intenser, and focusing on what really matters for us (the in-fiction choices & consequences, instead of math).

Particularly in my case, what bothers me most is the whole spectrum of NOTHING HAPPENS* contained in the old/trad resolution model. Every roll where you get a "fail" (NOTHIN HAPPENS!), is a waste of time and opportunities (and, by the end of a 4 hours session, it amounts to a really significant wasted time).
 
So, what do you guys think ? Has anyone considered doing this ?


*old/trad resolution model: "critical success > success > fail [NOTHING HAPPENS] > critical failure".

Can't you just swing and miss?  Does something really need to happen with every miss?

Quote from: Mistwell;642333Can't you just swing and miss?  Does something really need to happen with every miss?

Missing attacks is deprotaganization!

I don't know anything about Apocalypse World, but...

I don't have a problem with failure in any RPG (and for the record, I'm a rather "trad" gamer). If anything, in the campaigns I play-in/run, failure is not "NOTHING", or boring, or a waste of time. It's usually a spark for more tension, more adrenaline, and more player-engagement. The failure is an obstacle that may require a different approach to overcome. Or, the desperation increases as a PC tries to find some advantage to slay/disable their opponent in a combat.

Perhaps it's the RPGs I play, or the groups I've played with, or how we've played. We don't "narrate" failure results as, simply, "Dude, you missed. Now wait patiently for 20 minutes for your next chance to swing your sword." Failures are narrated in such a way that the player feels engaged in the action. Not ignored, and left to eat Cheetos and check his iPhone. (The only time I've had this occur is when I played 4e. That felt like a great deal of wasted time... mainly because of how long combat rounds, and combat in general, took to resolve).

In some cases, I've adjudicated a success-with-consequences result - typically in Call of Cthulhu, an RPG where I take more of a margin-of-success/failure approach than just simply pass/fail. But, that's not boiled into the system by default; it's something I adjudicate on my own, as a Keeper.

Nice question, Mistwell!

In fact, my experience with Runequest 6 is small, I just ran some experimental scenarios. But my experience with Gurps says that the "swing and miss" feature may sometimes (its not always, mind you) occur with a sufficiently high frequency to turn combats into a boring roll-miss-roll-miss-roll-miss affair.

So my questions are:

1.How is Runequest 6 in this ? Do it does something different for minimizing the "swing and miss" somehow ?

2.What would you do to convert a trad resolution game (say, Gurps or RQ) to the one in AW/DW ? Swaping the "fail" range for a "hard-choice" one, perhaps ? (so we would have: Crit Success > Success > Hard-Choice > Crit Failure) ?

Quote from: silva;642325Particularly in my case, what bothers me most is the whole spectrum of NOTHING HAPPENS* contained in the old/trad resolution model. Every roll where you get a "fail" (NOTHIN HAPPENS!), is a waste of time and opportunities (and, by the end of a 4 hours session, it amounts to a really significant wasted time).

DW is an 'old/trad' game, whatever that means. I don't know about your games, but in mine if you miss your attack your odds of getting hit with an axe by an angry muscly dude just went up sharply as a naturally emergent effect, in that he will want to return the favour. Not so much nothing happens, just applying mechanics differently to achieve the same result. If you go for an open ended attack, you may succeed impressively, or land on your bum and open yourself to more serious problems.

Likewise, if you try to pick a lock and fail the tramp of approaching guard boots may or may not be a result or just a random event, depending on the GM. Often nothing happening is just what happens, although the plot prodding could be seen as a feature in some cases.

An RPG with training wheels for the GM is perhaps a little unfair but nonetheless somewhat accurate. If you follow through on your understanding of cause and effect in games it all becomes a lot clearer, one would hope.

K Petersen, I understand it may be a group/GM thing, yes. I also had times when the NOTHING HAPPENS was reduced to a minimum too. But by formalizing this on the very rules, you guarantee that everytime the dice hits the table its a decisive moment (something that not always happen when it's just a "gentleman agreement").

I think this is specially true for a combat scene. Mistlwell´s "swing and miss" Is a really common thing if you follow most games by the book. I would like to change this.

Quote from: silva;6423392.What would you do to convert a trad resolution game (say, Gurps or RQ) to the one in AW/DW ? Swaping the "fail" range for a "hard-choice" one, perhaps ? (so we would have: Crit Success > Success > Hard-Choice > Crit Failure) ?

You can't, GURPS has thousands of skills, the DW system can't be used with many skills unless you want to spend the majority of your time looking up skill descriptions. DW relies on having a limited number of moves, this is a neccessary tradeoff for playability.

And please stop calling them trad/old games, it makes you sound less than committed to a genuine discussion.

Quote from: silva;642339But my experience with Gurps says that the "swing and miss" feature may sometimes (its not always, mind you) occur with a sufficiently high frequency to turn combats into a boring roll-miss-roll-miss-roll-miss affair.

I've never seen this pattern happen in Gurps. Mainly, because Gurps characters are generally quite competent at even average point values. (And the bell curve resolution mechanic plays a big part in this). I've seen more successful attacks and successful parries/dodges/blocks in Gurps combats, depending on the power level of opponents. And even then, Gurps provides a lot of tactical options to reduce an opponent's defenses.

Quote1.How is Runequest 6 in this ? Do it does something different for minimizing the "swing and miss" somehow ?

Well, RQ6 is quite involved, tactically. Beyond attacks and parries, you have Special Effects coming in to play based on degree of success/failure; weapon length potentially keeping a foe at bay, or providing an obstacle to engage at close range; the size of a parrying weapon limiting, or allowing, damage from being sustained. RQ6 (and MRQ2) combats are usually very engaging, with a lot of narrative "depth" resulting from the detailed combats.

Quote from: silva;642343But by formalizing this on the very rules, you guarantee that everytime the dice hits the table its a decisive moment (something that not always happen when it's just a "gentleman agreement").

That's nothing I need, but perhaps it would be useful in the hands of a beginning gamer. One who might closely follow an RPG "by the book", and require a little more direction. I don't see formalized mechanics for, basically, adjudication as being that necessary for an experienced GM.

In my own RPG High Valor a tie is "choose something bad to win through the day.." tied of course to the situation at hand to represent equally matched forces having to shift against one another and do something risky to push forward.

In other games I can't say I have but I like the idea of "choice" for the character (the player as much.)

Quote from: SilverlionIn other games I can't say I have but I like the idea of "choice" for the character (the player as much.)

Choice is the crux of the hobby for me. Maybe a consequence of being introduced in it by the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks of old, where "choice" was in the front stage of the experience. Not rolls, not math, not tactics, not "acting". But choice.

Where can I find more about your game ? Is there a good review somewhere ?

Quote from: The TravellerAn RPG with training wheels for the GM is perhaps a little unfair but nonetheless somewhat accurate. If you follow through on your understanding of cause and effect in games it all becomes a lot clearer, one would hope.

I dont like the term "training wheels for the GM" because it sounds like there is a objectively correct way of gaming, when in my view what is there are different playstyles.

I see the "swing and miss" as something perfectly desirable inside strong physics-simulation premises (like the default ones for Runequest and Gurps), for example.

Quote from: The TravellerLikewise, if you try to pick a lock and fail the tramp of approaching guard boots may or may not be a result or just a random event, depending on the GM.

Coincidently, in a recent discussion about the differences of OD&D to later editions, Butcher (I think) reminded people that OD&D actually had a formal rule for avoiding the NOTHING HAPPENS: time. If you missed a pick-lock roll, or a detection roll, the odds for a monster appearing out of a corner increased significantly, resulting in less and more decisive rolls.

But sadly, the later editions of D&D (and most other games since, really) lost it somewhere along the way, it seems.

Quote from: silva;642363I dont like the term "training wheels for the GM" because it sounds like there is a objectively correct way of gaming, when in my view what is there are different playstyles.

It's neither right nor wrong, objectively or otherwise, being just a tool to give guidelines to GMs. And even if it was, you should be in favour of it since it ought to produce GMs of a mould you prefer.

Quote from: silva;642363I see the "swing and miss" as something perfectly desirable inside strong physics-simulation premises (like the default ones for Runequest and Gurps), for example.

Sometimes you miss. Maybe that's not a factor in DW but it doesn't detract from games where it is an option.

Reviews of High Valor:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14884.phtml

http://x6system.net/?p=204


Its not perfect, but its solid.

Quote from: silva;642363Choice is the crux of the hobby for me. Maybe a consequence of being introduced in it by the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks of old, where "choice" was in the front stage of the experience. Not rolls, not math, not tactics, not "acting". But choice.

Where can I find more about your game ? Is there a good review somewhere ?

http://mostunreadblogever.blogspot.com/2010/07/tommys-take-on-high-valor.html

A review I posted on my blog.