Quote from: silva;642325BUT after we adopted AW for our current Shadowrun campaign the group consensus in that our games got faster, intenser, and focusing on what really matters for us (the in-fiction choices & consequences, instead of math).

I'm not terribly surprised that Shadowrun runs slower than Apocalypse World.

QuoteSo, what do you guys think ? Has anyone considered doing this ?

...if regular failure isn't exciting enough, maybe an approach like Rolemaster where failure comes in many exciting different flavours?

I think in RQ terms, Critical Success = success, success = hard choice, fail = bad choice, and critical failure = you lose. So CS = defeat the dark troll, S = keep the dark troll at bay but do no damage OR roll damage, but if you fail to put it down it's past you and chopping up the children, fail = you take damage OR it's among the children, CF = you are defeated and it's among the children.

Note however that this means importing one sided resolution to RQ, where only the player rolls. If you want to retain two sided resolution then what really counts is what both players roll. CS vs. CF means complete victory, CS vs. CS means standoff (which could be bad or good if there are time constraints on one side), S vs. F could mean hard choice, etc.

Quote from: silva;642363I dont like the term "training wheels for the GM" because it sounds like there is a objectively correct way of gaming, when in my view what is there are different playstyles.

Training wheels are there to keep you from falling over until you learn to ride. Once you learn to ride, you can decide whether you want to do time trials, track racing, mountain biking, bmx, bmx stunt, trials riding, road racing, criteriums, cyclocross, bicycle touring, downhill, ride to work, or just ride around recreationally. "Training wheels" simply means safety measures in place while you learn to do something new. In this context while you learn to GM for the first time, or GM a new game.

In one sense, this is pretty old hat. Surprise dice, attack and damage dice, and (usually) saving throws in old D&D don't actually tell you what happened, never mind why!

In old games such as Villains & Vigilantes and Skyrealms of Jorune, the dice could give you a varying number (in SOJ combat, a varying mix of kinds) of actions permitted from turn to turn.

Sometimes, you'll have too choose one thing or another: grab the girl or grab the treasure, as both plummet past, say.

There's the question of how much data you want to front-load and process (at which computers are better than people), and how much you want to improvise (at which people are better).

Tossing dice to get a general idea of the situation is a convenient aid to imagination, but it need not be a replacement for that.

The players embark, expecting to reach port in a certain number of days. In real life, voyages often do not go like clockwork! So, we may find it interesting to toss dice.

That may introduce a situation in which the players have a choice to make, trading one thing (perhaps speed) for another (perhaps cargo).

Should the GM instead decide for the players and report, "You did thus and so?"

Over the years, the hobby seems to have slipped away from its miniature-wargame roots and into a boardgame ethos.

If there is an "oldest school," it is the one that regards 'rules' as mere suggestions. There are no prescriptions from on high, just examples of things that have worked for other people. The whole value in having something in the tool kit is that it happens with some frequency to be more convenient than starting from scratch.

Nowadays, many people seem to regard formalisms as ends in themselves, as rigid laws that must be obeyed. Game mastery gives way to mere administration of 'systems' that are really in charge.

A text reads differently through that lens, than with eyes that see merely options to be used, not used, or altered as seems meet.

I reckon a game in which people insisted on doing things "the DW way" all the time might be as off-putting to me as those in which people insist on doing it the "Nth Edition D&D way" all the time.

That's "training wheels" for you, but some people refuse to get off the quadricycle and learn to ride a bike!

[edit]  My original post  below was based on the old thread.  Apologies.  I see this thread is about adapting mechanics for use in other games.  It's really not a simple process.  I had the urge to do that with my WoD games, and still do.  For a lot of good info about hacking and making custom moves, I strongly recommend the DW Guide and the somethingawful forums.[/edit]

One very important aspect of the *World games that was barely touched upon, and thus almost completely missed, was the part about triggers to moves.

Moves don't limit what the characters can do.  The characters, as in any rpg I've played in, narrate their actions until it's time to roll the dice.  

"An orc rushes you and is swinging his ax at you!  What do you do?"

"I duck!"

"Sounds like Defy Danger, roll +DEX."

or if the answer was:  "I parry and attempt to decapitate him with my sword!"

"Sounds like Hack and Slash, roll +STR."

In DW the fiction always comes first and last.  When the fiction triggers the mechanics, the dice are rolled, the outcome of the move is determined, then we go back into the fiction and the result is narrated.


Also, FUCK THIS SHIT, is an AW move, not a DW move. (This caused some confusion a while back in the other thread.)

If you guys are interested in hacking DW or AW or massaging some rules, there are two strong (if somewhat overlapping) DW communities (that I'm aware of).  One is in the G+ Communities called The Dungeon World Tavern, and the other is on the somethingawful.com forums.  Tons of good stuff is getting done there, from new settings, classes and moves being made, to answering random questions from people just popping in.  

In case you didn't know, the free version of the DW rules is available in PDF format here:  book.gazetteer.com, there's also a great guide to the game, but I don't have the link for you, though you could find it at dungeon-world.com.

I'm not here to abduct anyone into my cult of DW.  We can have different tastes.  That's cool.  I just saw a real lack of understanding and think I could answer some questions that weren't getting a fair shake.  

Maybe I'm too late and all the get up and goers have already got up and went.

Thanks for the help Ich! And welcome to the RPGsite!

I will have a look on the provided links, btw. Still looking to incorporate AW resolution mechanics to other games.

Oh, and by the way, lemme ask you something: do you think AW rules could be adapted/changed somehow to yield more realistic/verossimile results ? Do you think the rules "as is" already provide that ?

Thanks!

I have played AW, but I don't anymore.  I prefer DW, as it has rekindled my love of fantasy.  As to the realism of moves, I feel AW does a good job of it, but the number of hacks out there may support my feeling that there are many different ways to go with the AW Engine.  

If you want to work on making moves, that guide I mentioned earlier can be found on this page.  I, also, strongly recommend this thread in the Something Awful forums.  Not sure if you have to register or not to be able to read that. ($5 lifetime membership.  Do read the posting rules.)

Oh, and there is a shitton of hacks already.  One, or more, of them might already have what you are looking for.  What sort of hack are you thinking of?  I'll point you in the right direction if I can.

Quote from: silva;642363I see the "swing and miss" as something perfectly desirable inside strong physics-simulation premises (like the default ones for Runequest and Gurps), for example.

I don't think that Apocalypse World is any good at simulation compared to RQ or GURPS.  However, in principle, I don't think that swing-and-miss is necessarily an ideal.  For example, suppose you are boxing and you swing and the opponent ducks under it.  There are consequences for that miss, such that the situation is not the same as before you took your swing.  You have extended yourself and the opponent is down.  He may be able to get behind you or clinch you more effectively, say.  

A common RPG style of combat mechanics models fights by exchanges of making an attack, then returning back to a neutral position.  An alternative assumption could that with every move, the balance shifts rather than always returning to a neutral position.  Probably neither of these is right, but I don't think that the first is inherently better.  

Quote from: silva;657394Oh, and by the way, lemme ask you something: do you think AW rules could be adapted/changed somehow to yield more realistic/verossimile results ? Do you think the rules "as is" already provide that ?

It's a good question.  I wonder if there could be an aggressive Move vs. a defensive Move - so you choose aggressive/defensive before you roll, and there is a different choice after the roll about what result you get, like more damage vs. carry forwards vs. disability or something like.

*World games don't try to be simulations.  While they are RPG's and not story games, they try not to be meticulous about things.  For example, in AW, items of value: it's really not important what they are, they are used for barter, so, only their barter value is noted, not exactly what they are.  Ammo is another.  Arrows and bullets aren't counted.  A character with a missile weapon generally starts with 3 ammo.  Ammo is only checked off as an option to a poor roll.

One of the great things about these games is their hackability.  If you don't like that vague aspect of the game, it's easily changed to suit your group.

As far as 'swing and miss', I love that combat is done with a single roll (+any damage rolls in DW/Harm rolls in AW, but there are rules for using set damage to reduce rolls if desired.)

I also love that I have so much fun GM'ing DW.  While I understand there are excellent DM's out there; I was never one of them.  But, I can GM DW well enough, and I'll get better with time.  A game can be started with no prep and take you places you would have never expected, because game asks you to use maps, but leave blanks, ask questions and use the answers.  So, as a GM, you get to play to see what happens, rather than to try to get them to follow your story.

Been reading Apocalypse World in some more detail after the debate in the other thread. So curious about a couple of things (stupid questions possibly).

*does the GM actually ever roll for anything, or is it always player rolls?

*are there ever modifiers to rolls for NPC ability levels?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;659017*does the GM actually ever roll for anything, or is it always player rolls?

*are there ever modifiers to rolls for NPC ability levels?

* No, never.  Only the players roll.

*No.  About the only things NPC's have are Harm levels; armor, if any; damage, based on their weapon, if any; and ... I forget the term used in the game, but basically, what they want, whatever drives them.

They may or may not have some special moves they can make; I don't recall off the top of my head.  I didn't play a lot of AW.  I mostly play DW now, and npc's in DW can have their own moves.

Thanks for clarifying. Interesting.

Here is something I just got off G+ and I wanted to share it here:

Jonathan Walton originally shared:
I'm starting a new Dungeon World campaign soon and wanted something punchy that helped explain what it means to be a 1st level character, what the game is about, and what you do. This is what I came up with:

-----

Dear Motley Crew of Shiftless Reprobates,

Due to the whims of fate and your own poor decision-making, you have been left with no choice but to join together in a loose comraderie to seek your fortunes by theft, guile, treasure-hunting, and the occasional grisly murder.

You may be relatively satisfied to make your way through this world as a brigand and tomb-robber or you may aspire to a greater calling. Either way, your current means and skills are barely suited for low cut-pursery. If your life ended tomorrow, from a rusty shaving razor drawn across your throat, perhaps, none but the sharks and moneylenders would mourn your untimely passing.

It is up to you, then, to prove that fortune has unjustly overlooked your humble thread, if not through acts of valor, then at least through obscene wealth. But for now, it's all hand-to-mouth and blade-to-face, the core issues of survival and personal betterment.

With that in mind, your makeshift crew has made its way to [dangerous dungeony locale], which is said to hold [treasures of some kind] as well as [monstrous things that will surely kill you]. If you're lucky, you'll find wealth and adventure within, rather than a strange and painful demise; if not, there's plenty more miserable wretches eager to pick up where you left off.

Best wishes for your first substantial undertaking of criminal tomfoolery,

The GM

Mechanics can't make up the lack of the players being in an interesting situation. If a session is boring it because the players are forced into doing boring things.  A referee need to be aware of this and learn how to properly manage his game. Mechanics doesn't fix this.

In addition The idea that every die roll has to be a significant resolution just make the game more disconnected from a player trying to roleplay a character interacting with a setting.

By far the most useful techniques are the  referee knowing when to compress time to move the campaign forward. Along with using a system with the preferred level of detail for the group. For some this is Microlite d20 for others it is GURPS.

Quote from: estar;660703Mechanics can't make up the lack of the players being in an interesting situation. If a session is boring it because the players are forced into doing boring things.  A referee need to be aware of this and learn how to properly manage his game. Mechanics doesn't fix this.

In addition The idea that every die roll has to be a significant resolution just make the game more disconnected from a player trying to roleplay a character interacting with a setting.

By far the most useful techniques are the  referee knowing when to compress time to move the campaign forward. Along with using a system with the preferred level of detail for the group. For some this is Microlite d20 for others it is GURPS.

If you don't want to play Dungeon World or other *World games, that's cool.  That means you enjoy the games you play.

I happen to disagree with every one of your points.  But that's also cool, because we live in a world with many games to suit our desires, outlooks and opinions.