Now I've seen it all. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?682310-TROS-Remake-Blade-of-the-Iron-Throne-Kickstarter)
Ah - at first I was going to ask if it's Rape Culture, but it seems it's the usual suspect, the Playboy Monster.
If Philip K. Dick lived today, he'd write a novel about a man wrongfully imprisoned by Thought Police for wanking to his imagination of a naked woman, as he has committed a crime of objectification. It'd be later revealed that he is a transsexual and was imagining himself as a woman, and would in the end be paid hush money by the government.
I just love this split in modern feminism - on one axis you have those attacking Putin with titties (making him basically laugh at the prospect of free, young, tender boobs), on the other you have those women who are acting as if they should all be wearing burkas. First ones are then acting surprised when they get the shaft for public nudity (I'm all for relaxing laws on public nudity, scum that I am, but well - dura lex sed lex), while the others protest minor indignities (that can hardly be even constructed indignities), while ignoring the notions of true misogonysts such as hardcore salafists and wahabists. I'll lower myself to the same level and retort - is that too hard that I like women so much, that I do in fact love looking at you? Why am I compared to a women - beating scum, because I try to appreciate beauty? Then again, naked women on every page corner is a bit tacky.
Edit: This thread is really a gift that keeps on giving, and I'm just at page 3!
Quote from: EmprintHere is the kind of thing that I wish would appear in the outlines for more RPGs.
This is pulp fantasy, which means we make real statements about things. This is non-asshole pulp fantasy, so we make statements we’d actually be comfortable making to our friends.
We take this humanism and we hardboil it and we give it a sword and we tell it the satrap closed the mine and ran off with the wages. Inclusion doesn’t mean we don’t have conflict. It means we don’t justify real-world hardship with in-setting conflict or silencing.
Can somewhat explain this to me? I'm not being ironic here, I truly do not understand this babble.
Quote from: TristramEvans;646560the Riddle of Steel is now a "storygame"? how's that work?
Kruger means the remake, I believe.
I really like the classical "baiting" in this thread, and it's quite a wonder that the author didn't get banned. The sad truth is, that if anyone starts accusing you about this War on Women (and unless you are a women beater or some sort of a pimp, whether literal or metaphorical, etc. etc.), whether it's sexism or objectivism or promoting rape culture, you need to walk away. Because any argument you may give, any joke you'd try to crack, will just be turned against you. And once you fall into that trap once, there's no escape. As much as it is tempting to respond to such an accusation, you just need to say "No I do not", or say nothing at all, and walk away.
the Riddle of Steel is now a "storygame"? how's that work?
good to see the usual suspects involved along side a bunch of the entitled morons who cant actually read anything that doesnt agree with the idea they've already reached :) the guy should just stop bothering to post there coz he isnt gonna make the harpies stop wailing about their usual bollocks.
Edit: what the fuck is concern trolling exactly? and why is is a bannable offence?
This thread has truly disgusted me. The man has bent backwards, and for what? A vague promise of a few dollars? To sell one's vision for golden bars, I can understand, but for a mess of pottage? Then again, it may be one big switcheroo (seeing as he artfully dodged, in the end, the boo boo about page corners or w/e), to sucker - punch the SJW crowd out of their 5$, in which - well, I prefer when lowly demagoguery is done for golden bars, but I'll also understand if it's done for a pint.
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;646562Edit: what the fuck is concern trolling exactly? and why is is a bannable offence?
Concern trolling came from politics and has basically been twisted and turned beyond all recognition into "I don't like what you're saying".
What is WAS was a way to describe Rush Limbaugh giving democrats advice (or Micheal Moore telling the republicans what the "need to do to regain support from X".) and the like. Disingenuous advice from your ideological opponents. Basically all advice that goes, "what you really need to do is be more like us and agree with everything we say, then you'll win for sure!"
You can kind of see how the concern crusade uses it in that they think that anyone who disagrees with any tiny little part of their beliefs is a died in the wool baby eating monster and therefore must be their opponent (especially the cardinal sin of saying, "Hey, you think maybe we're going a bit overboard here?"). So anytime anyone raises a concern it's ipso facto trolling. And they needed a name for it, and they're kinda dull, hence they took "concern trolling".
An ACTUAL example of concern trolling would be going into a decidedly anti-necked people game and saying, "I'm worried that this game won't get a lot of traction in the mainstream, you should really consider putting a necked chick on every other page to boost sales." Of course the example doesn't really work but that's kinda the point...
Also: that's a tacky border and since when is The Riddle of Steel a storygame?
Quote from: TristramEvans;646560the Riddle of Steel is now a "storygame"? how's that work?
Take TRoS, "streamline" the combat and add mechanics such as "Limelight" and, I shit you not "Scene Request".
"Concern trolling" didn't used to be merely be a disingenuous person pretending to raise concerns. Their concerns were deliberately hyperbolic to make a position seem disreputable to fence-sitters.
They would be "concerned" about things that aren't actually going on at all most of the time in order to make it seem to outsiders that they were. Opposition could dig up posts from a concern troll trying to address "issues" in a movement that may not exist, and would make reference to events in a forum or Internet community that never actually happened, but because they can now be referenced by outsiders in the form of a concern trolls posting history they take on a life of their own.
Example: By the way, I think that Piestro's antisemitism is really uncalled for; especially since it's pretty much never on topic. I'm glad the mods deleted those posts but I don't understand why he's still allowed to post here if he's just going to keep doing it when he knows the mods are asleep and won't be around to clean it up for hours. It makes the site look bad and has to make people wonder why the mods would even want someone like that posting here.
There are other tactics, but it's basically all passive-aggressive character assassination. The "netroots" et al made it mean anyone who isn't fully on board with the Vanguard Party's platform is a kulak destined for the concern troll gulag, which actually has nothing to do with concern trolling since it's more or less just a naked disagreement with established dogma.
Pretending to be a supporter of a position you don't support to walk it back among real supporters isn't even really concern trolling.
Purple offended? Storygames you say? Ban baiting and banning from a collection of unemployables seeking validation through an anonymous online existence, eh?
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/look-at-all-the-fucks-i-give-morgan-freeman.jpg)
You know you read that in Morgan Freeman's voice.
So much fremdschamen in these threads combined. Jesus, insecure are we.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;646582"Concern trolling" didn't used to be merely be a disingenuous person pretending to raise concerns. Their concerns were deliberately hyperbolic to make a position seem disreputable to fence-sitters.
They would be "concerned" about things that aren't actually going on at all most of the time in order to make it seem to outsiders that they were. Opposition could dig up posts from a concern troll trying to address "issues" in a movement that may not exist, and would make reference to events in a forum or Internet community that never actually happened, but because they can now be referenced by outsiders in the form of a concern trolls posting history they take on a life of their own.
Example: By the way, I think that Piestro's antisemitism is really uncalled for; especially since it's pretty much never on topic. I'm glad the mods deleted those posts but I don't understand why he's still allowed to post here if he's just going to keep doing it when he knows the mods are asleep and won't be around to clean it up for hours. It makes the site look bad and has to make people wonder why the mods would even want someone like that posting here.
There are other tactics, but it's basically all passive-aggressive character assassination. The "netroots" et al made it mean anyone who isn't fully on board with the Vanguard Party's platform is a kulak destined for the concern troll gulag, which actually has nothing to do with concern trolling since it's more or less just a naked disagreement with established dogma.
Pretending to be a supporter of a position you don't support to walk it back among real supporters isn't even really concern trolling.
I think both your version and Piestrio's are right - I myself understood the term as he described. It is basically a catch - all phrase, because you can basically "counter" any argument with it. I mean, for example, were someone to say in that mess of a topic "why are you objectifying men as alphas? I don't look like Schwarzeneger, I want to see some plumpy, pox - ridden adventurers." you'd be shouted down as "concern trolling" because sexism against men ain't a thing (except y'know, the whole notion of "sex sales" is basically sexist towards men)
PS - hey lay off kulaks. I had two in family, greatuncle and grandgrandfather. One got executed by the Provisionals in '47, one subjected himself to threats and joined the Polish version of kołchoz.
Quote from: Kanye Westeros;646631So much fremdschamen in these threads combined. Jesus, insecure are we.
On the contrary, I am so secure I don't mind showing the picture of my cock to strangers. Here:
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2IqRe3sQ7SrnikXpfH4FpZau7MV77GVqh-RKh7gSvraIcN2GW)
Quote from: The Traveller;646629Purple offended? Storygames you say? Ban baiting and banning from a collection of unemployables seeking validation through an anonymous online existence, eh?
It's a bit more this time, really. Makes for quite a chilling read, when you see how much a small minority can change one's vision.
Quote from: CRKrueger;646570Take TRoS, "streamline" the combat and add mechanics such as "Limelight" and, I shit you not "Scene Request".
"Limelight and Scene Request"
Ok, why the !@#*^ can't that be part of roleplay?
Why do you need mechanics for that?
Quote from: Bill;646667"Limelight and Scene Request"
Ok, why the !@#*^ can't that be part of roleplay?
Why do you need mechanics for that?
Because you want structured, OOC control of the narrative.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;646582Example: By the way, I think that Piestro's antisemitism is really uncalled for; especially since it's pretty much never on topic. I'm glad the mods deleted those posts but I don't understand why he's still allowed to post here if he's just going to keep doing it when he knows the mods are asleep and won't be around to clean it up for hours. It makes the site look bad and has to make people wonder why the mods would even want someone like that posting here.
.
Holy hell, that describes Sage Genesis to a "T". Any time someone disagrees with him, he pulls out the "I really like this site and community, and your posting style really doesn't gel well and I think you'd get along a lot better with everyone at this great site if you changed how you posted."
But since he's on the same side as Kai, he never gets warned for it.
Quote from: CRKrueger;646702Because you want structured, OOC control of the narrative.
Yesssss....silly Players...you are my puppets!
So wrong :)
Quote from: Rincewind1;646564This thread has truly disgusted me. The man has bent backwards, and for what? A vague promise of a few dollars? To sell one's vision for golden bars, I can understand, but for a mess of pottage? Then again, it may be one big switcheroo (seeing as he artfully dodged, in the end, the boo boo about page corners or w/e), to sucker - punch the SJW crowd out of their 5$, in which - well, I prefer when lowly demagoguery is done for golden bars, but I'll also understand if it's done for a pint.
I've quite enjoyed this thread on two fronts. So while I'm new here, I'd like to respond to what you are saying here.
In essence a thread similar to the rpg.net thread with the same motif occurred over on storygames.com when the free Beta was released back in January. I responded to the questions regarding the mechanics and comparisons to TRoS, and sought clarification about a comment that the game was about "whites killing blacks". I responded to that one simply because I was genuinely mystified as to how anyone could draw that conclusion. The thread soon died for lack of oxygen.
On rpg.net the thread attracted far more posters and was far more vocal. The choice then is clear -- ignore it and hope it dies. The problem with that approach is that it was clear that people were posting based on what other people had posted and not on any sighting of the game. In a sense this is more problematic than people posting who have seen the game.
Keep in mind that at the time we're running a Kickstarter so the only point to any use of our time over those 20 days is to attract the funding we needed to make our Funding Goal. So it only makes sense to engage at that time if it will end up contributing funds.
In the end 9% of our total funding came from people who clicked through the link on that thread to our Kickstarter. After our own website members, it was the single largest source of funding -- including Kickstarter itself. Without those funds coming in on the last Friday and Saturday we may not have made our Funding Goal.
Regards,
Ian P.
Ian,
Did you have to feed the beast?
Someone translates "there are topless women in the preview art" into "OMG, are they saying women can't be heroes!????????!!"
If you just have the courage to tell those people "Listen, you're a stupid and terrible person and a cancer on the real struggle for social equality and it is important that you kill yourself as soon as you find a tall enough building" and I can guarantee your funding would've gone through the roof.
Quote from: CRKrueger;646570Take TRoS, "streamline" the combat and add mechanics such as "Limelight" and, I shit you not "Scene Request".
Have you played the Beta of Blade?
TRoS always followed one particular PC melee combatant until "something interesting happened" and then moved to the next PC combatant. As such, it was not an "I Go/You Go" combat system. Instead, combat was described as "cinematic" -- not unrealistic, as some might interpret that, but as functionally similar to literary or cinema scenes.
Blade formalises that concept. Combat is cinematic, in that the camera stays with a particular combatant until something interesting happens to them and then the camera cuts to the next PC. Rather than desribing a set amount of time for actions, the duration of that character's activity is described as a Limelight. It seemed sensible given that the combat is "cinematic."
TRoS had a number of holes in its system and holdovers from past versions that made it through to the final print run even though they didn't belong. An example of this would be the references to miniatures -- where movement ranges are described and thrown/missile weapon ranges are described, yet the melee combat environment is abstracted and so there is no distance reference used in combat. Blade "streamlines" the combat system by removing the holes and holdovers. The combat system itself contains all of the manoeuvres present in TRoS and has been described as crunchy.
TRoS had its Luck SA and The Companion has a Drama mechanic. Blade has a revised Drama mechanic that is far more powerful, but rarer to use. It's usage largely serves the design goal of "player-driven story".
More than happy to discuss Blade's design goals and add thoughts on the comparison of aspects of TRoS to Blade.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: Zak S;646909If you just have the courage to tell those people "Listen, you're a stupid and terrible person and a cancer on the real struggle for social equality and it is important that you kill yourself as soon as you find a tall enough building" and I can guarantee your funding would've gone through the roof.
So I lack courage and you would have put up your own money to get us over the line?
If only I'd known both those things before we launched the Kickstarter...
:)
Regards,
Ian P.
First of all, I'd like to thank you for coming to us for this discussion Ian, so that I may not feel like a coward hiding in a hole and talking behind your back. I was going to post my words on RPG.net, but then removed the post as I consider a distant possibility of sometime using that site as a platform for an advertisement of my own. I've also considered sending you an e - mail, but I couldn't find one. Then again, I admit I was not very diligent in my search
I understand your position all too well - I myself am a bit torn on this issue. On one hand, I have often voiced the notion that RPGs are a commercial product, and therefore ought to target the largest audience as possible. On the other, if you are designing an RPG that is actually a setting & mechanics, rather than just the mechanics themselves, there is a certain motion of a vision to the work, and one has at least some of the typical artist's responsibilities.
I have long argued that a developer can not just sit in an ivory tower, ignorant of the opinions of the customers. But on the other hand, witnessing what happened to you, got me thinking. Because you have allowed a group of armchair critics and political agendas warriors to burst into your work, and start claiming it as their own. I'm not an enemy of inclusive art in RPGs, but that conversation was looking as a borderline threat of boycott.
I understand why you chose to give into these demands. I am not entirely saying you should not have. But on the other hand, the question is, where does this stop? We see organised minorities put their muddy fingers in more and more works of art, both from the right wing and the left wing, as we witness a war for the culture. I know that what transpired here was not exactly a world - shattering event (no offence), but I think this not as much creates, but showcases a much larger precedent, a precedent of another form of censorship, as minorities threaten to destroy projects with the powers of boycott. I do not know what I'd do in your situation - well, truth be told, I do. I'd price the more inclusive art at 20k on the Kickstarter, ensuring I'd pocket a fair bit of that, if I am to sell my soul to the naysayers. After all, as the old joke goes, the worst crime of Judas was that he sold Jesus on the cheap.
I, personally, think you could have pulled the Kickstarter while ignoring the voices here. Whenever a Sword & Sorcery RPG or book crops up, you hear the voices about the legacy of racism and sexism - and while I may be inclined to agree that not all is right in the realm of Howard on the former, the latter is kind of laughable to anyone who read Red Nails or Queen of the Black Coast. And even the racial issues are often overblown, but I understand that America has a problematic cultural war on that subject nowadays. Countless authors just moved away from the issues, and were successful. Ultimately, it was your decision, and the effects but remain to be seen.
Quote from: Zak S;646909Ian,
Did you have to feed the beast?
Someone translates "there are topless women in the preview art" into "OMG, are they saying women can't be heroes!????????!!"
If you just have the courage to tell those people "Listen, you're a stupid and terrible person and a cancer on the real struggle for social equality and it is important that you kill yourself as soon as you find a tall enough building" and I can guarantee your funding would've gone through the roof.
Yes, I think that Sharia laws and the "abort all girls" social standard of the Thailand, China and India are far more damaging to the women equality than all the nude pictures.
But hey, those women don't have access to donate to your cause on the Internet, so why bother?
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915First of all, I'd like to thank you for coming to us for this discussion Ian...
Heh, no problem. Happy to chat!
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I understand your position all too well - I myself am a bit torn on this issue. On one hand, I have often voiced the notion that RPGs are a commercial product, and therefore ought to target the largest audience as possible. On the other, if you are designing an RPG that is actually a setting & mechanics, rather than just the mechanics themselves, there is a certain motion of a vision to the work, and one has at least some of the typical artist's responsibilities.
From our perspective we certainly don't see Blade as a commercial work. It was written as a free download for the Blade community -- a piece of fanon, if you like. Community members asked us to produce a hardcopy they could buy. So we built the Kickstarter Rewards on the forum and when that thread settled we created the actual Kickstarter project. The bulk of project Backers came from within our own community. Our intention was to use Kickstarter as a tool for collecting the funds of our members -- to some extent it didn't occur to us that people who had never seen the Beta PDF would be interested in Backing us.
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I understand why you chose to give into these demands. I am not entirely saying you should not have.
From your perspective, what do you see as the demands that we gave in to?
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915Whenever a Sword & Sorcery RPG or book crops up, you hear the voices about the legacy of racism and sexism - and while I may be inclined to agree that not all is right in the realm of Howard on the former, the latter is kind of laughable to anyone who read Red Nails or Queen of the Black Coast. And even the racial issues are often overblown, but I understand that America has a problematic cultural war on that subject nowadays. Countless authors just moved away from the issues, and were successful. Ultimately, it was your decision, and the effects but remain to be seen.
I'll be candid here -- as I'm not a US resident, I don't really get the hypersensitivity to these issues. I don't think I could unless I had been raised there. That said, when you read the pulps of the era you see little difference in the values expressed between genres. The attitudes prevelent in the S&S tales are there in the detective stories, and the war stories, and the cowboy stories. Even when you move from low-brow fiction to high-brow fiction, the sexism and racism are still there
in the works of that era.
But in the end -- does it matter? I don't know -- but I'm not sure I care much either. I like playing RPGs. In our gaming group the gender split is even. I suspect that has more to do with whether the scenario material is sexist that any game artwork or mechanics ever could.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646911So I lack courage and you would have put up your own money to get us over the line?
If only I'd known both those things before we launched the Kickstarter...
:)
Regards,
Ian P.
People supported Raggi when (and because) he took a stand against puritanical bullshit, and they supported me too.
I think you probably took the best route really. The problem with some of the people that were berating you is that they aren't arguing in good faith.
They just want to be angry with someone and be seen as championing the cause.
The irony, as we have seen, is that the way they do this is often pretty counterproductive.
Big fan of Riddle, so looking forward to our group eventually giving Blade a go. I'm shit at mechanics, but the wonks in our group have liked what they have read from the free release.
Also, sticking this in other games is monumentally fuckwitted.
It's an rpg. All this pathetic guff about 'ooh, it's teh storygame' is sadsack city and people that push it should feel bad about themselves.
Get over it, it's terribly embarrassing.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646905I've quite enjoyed this thread on two fronts. So while I'm new here, I'd like to respond to what you are saying here.
In essence a thread similar to the rpg.net thread with the same motif occurred over on storygames.com when the free Beta was released back in January. I responded to the questions regarding the mechanics and comparisons to TRoS, and sought clarification about a comment that the game was about "whites killing blacks". I responded to that one simply because I was genuinely mystified as to how anyone could draw that conclusion.
Ian, I just want to say shine on.
You went to Storygames, and they accused you of Racism. You went to RPG.NET, and they accused you of Sexism (and somehow homophobia), now you're at TheRPGSite, and they accuse you of writing a Storygame, which here is WORSE than Sexism and Racism combined!
Mind you I have no idea how much truth there is to most of this, but the accusations on RPG.NET were overblown, even if there was a valid basis for them and I partly agreed. But that's the thing: Hyperbole is designed to force you to
take sides as opposed to
resolve conflicts, and renders reasoned positions ineffective.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646905Keep in mind that at the time we're running a Kickstarter so the only point to any use of our time over those 20 days is to attract the funding we needed to make our Funding Goal. So it only makes sense to engage at that time if it will end up contributing funds.
On the other hand, this is actually worse that inadvertent racism/sexism/storygaming. Basically, you're saying you were ONLY doing it for the money, and not to participate in the community or address the issues involved, which makes it look like you were deliberately manipulating the community with controversy as a marketing tactic.
Just be aware that the RPG market is too small for these sorts of tactics to work in the long term. Also, for a really successful Kickstarter you should talk about your game
before the Kickstarter begins.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646905In the end 9% of our total funding came from people who clicked through the link on that thread to our Kickstarter. After our own website members, it was the single largest source of funding -- including Kickstarter itself.
Interesting.
Quote from: Zak S;646909Did you have to feed the beast?
Dude, the beast shat out 9%. And Ian handled it in a way that he didn't get banned. I respect that, even if I don't admire the tactics.
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I was going to post my words on RPG.net, but then removed the post as I consider a distant possibility of sometime using that site as a platform for an advertisement of my own.
Like a wayward son, they'll complain about their homelife at their friend's house, but would never take that tone with mommy, and will go right back home when they need money :)
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I've also considered sending you an e - mail, but I couldn't find one.
I know. It's not like RPG.NET's PM system is obvious or easy to use :D
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I understand why you chose to give into these demands. I am not entirely saying you should not have. But on the other hand, the question is, where does this stop?
PREACH IT!
If a man can marry a man, then why shouldn't he be able to marry his goat, or his car, or his business? And once we restrict gun clips to 10 rounds, you know the next step is 9, until the clips themselves are illegal!
Remember what I said about Hyperbole? QED.
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915We see organised minorities put their muddy fingers in more and more works of art, both from the right wing and the left wing, as we witness a war for the culture.
Art reflects culture as much as it defines it. Also I see more fine art and titties now than ever thanks to the internet. So art is doing fine.
Now the War on Christmas on the other hand...
Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I'd price the more inclusive art at 20k on the Kickstarter, ensuring I'd pocket a fair bit of that, if I am to sell my soul to the naysayers. After all, as the old joke goes, the worst crime of Judas was that he sold Jesus on the cheap.
You reminded me of the joke I heard at PAX, where Mike Krahulik jokingly suggested that the first stretch goal should be Dick Wolf t-shirts, the next one for their removal, and the next for their re-inclusion, etc.
Of course he was joking, while you're being a douchbag.
Many thanks for your post Anon. I appreciate what you've said, both here and on rpg.net.
Quote from: Ian.PlumbKeep in mind that at the time we're running a Kickstarter so the only point to any use of our time over those 20 days is to attract the funding we needed to make our Funding Goal. So it only makes sense to engage at that time if it will end up contributing funds.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;646968On the other hand, this is actually worse that inadvertent racism/sexism/storygaming. Basically, you're saying you were ONLY doing it for the money, and not to participate in the community or address the issues involved, which makes it look like you were deliberately manipulating the community with controversy as a marketing tactic.
I know there are people for whom their online presence is a significant part of their day. That's not me. I participate on the Blade forum, and that's about it. Our Kickstarter ran for 20 days. I was away for five of those days. Blade's authors didn't participate in the Kickstarter process for their individual reasons. So for a couple of weeks I became responsible for answering questions and addressing concerns about the game from people external to the Blade community.
This activity is of course not my family. It's not my job. It's not even my primary hobby. It's not even the main thing I'm doing with regards to Blade (which would be the development of the game). What I'm trying to get at here is that there isn't much time to dedicate to this "online presence" task. This necessitates a certain pragmatism -- is the time spent here moving the project forward? Or not? If not, can it wait until after the Kickstarter completes? That sort of thing
Participation in that rpg.net thread was ultimately about attracting Backers. But then again, participation in any thread at that time was about attracting Backers.
Now, it's a different matter. Having responded to dozens and dozens of threads about Blade over the last month, I've seen just about everything when it comes to commentary on Blade. But some threads remain interesting in their own right, such as this one.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: Swiss Toni;646963I'm shit at mechanics, but the wonks in our group have liked what they have read from the free release.
That one made me laugh. Thanks Toni! When you give Blade a go, I hope the combat isn't too crunchy for you. It can be a bit tricky at the start, but makes more sense as you get into it.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646975That one made me laugh. Thanks Toni! When you give Blade a go, I hope the combat isn't too crunchy for you. It can be a bit tricky at the start, but makes more sense as you get into it.
Regards,
Ian P.
We've played Riddle a fair bit over the years and can get the combats to go pretty smoothly so we should be ok with this too.
I just checked out the offending thread, and the PDF art work. I like the cover. Reminds me of something... I will go and read more in a bit.
But, the art that got a lot of people upset? Seriously? Really? I must be living under a very privileged rock. People do allow the funniest things get to them.
I could imagine a lot of knickers getting very twisted if they walked around where I live. Not only are men paying to spend time talking to women (and to do other things quite openly), there are women here who WANT to be housewives and don't want the kind of power structure as defined by a lot of the more vocal Western Feminists! Imagine!
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646940Heh, no problem. Happy to chat!
From our perspective we certainly don't see Blade as a commercial work. It was written as a free download for the Blade community -- a piece of fanon, if you like. Community members asked us to produce a hardcopy they could buy. So we built the Kickstarter Rewards on the forum and when that thread settled we created the actual Kickstarter project. The bulk of project Backers came from within our own community. Our intention was to use Kickstarter as a tool for collecting the funds of our members -- to some extent it didn't occur to us that people who had never seen the Beta PDF would be interested in Backing us.
I see - that's nice of you. The free PDF, that is. I always said that Eclipse Phase' model has more merit than it may look on the first glance.
QuoteFrom your perspective, what do you see as the demands that we gave in to?
This is a tricky question, because you see, if I were to say "to remove the sexy art/to put more inclusive art", I could easily be branded sexist here - that's why such questions are problematic. My issue is less with what demands you gave into, but the giving into the demands themselves. There's a difference between listening to your customer/target base, and what happened here. What happened here was a small group of people with an agenda, thinking they could force someone uninterested in their social issues, to take the stance on them - and alongside them, no less. Trying to force you to pander to them, so to speak. No product is universal - that's the limitation you need to accept everywhere.
Then again, you have to admit that naked ladies on every corner are a bit tacky ;). Not that I mind it too much.
edit: The principal problem for me here is that I saw the classic example of wiping up a mob in that thread. First you have people saying "yeah I'm interested, all right", then you have someone going "This is outrageous! This is xist!", the shout attracts a few other criers, and some people, those who, for example, wish for acceptance of those groups, start suddenly backing out or reconsidering their interest, because, gods forbid, they may be an enemy of that group as well. That, to me, is the most dangerous phenomena here.
QuoteI'll be candid here -- as I'm not a US resident, I don't really get the hypersensitivity to these issues. I don't think I could unless I had been raised there. That said, when you read the pulps of the era you see little difference in the values expressed between genres. The attitudes prevelent in the S&S tales are there in the detective stories, and the war stories, and the cowboy stories. Even when you move from low-brow fiction to high-brow fiction, the sexism and racism are still there in the works of that era.
Well, that makes the two of us non - US residents discussing US problems. I think we'd agree though, that while we need to accept and be wary of those attitudes in works of the era, they are not vehemently racist & sexist, nor were they written with spread of racism & sexist as primary agenda.
QuoteBut in the end -- does it matter? I don't know -- but I'm not sure I care much either. I like playing RPGs. In our gaming group the gender split is even. I suspect that has more to do with whether the scenario material is sexist that any game artwork or mechanics ever could.
Regards,
Ian P.
Well put - I'd say that the key is a simple, normal respect for another human being.
Quote from: Zak S;646960People supported Raggi when (and because) he took a stand against puritanical bullshit, and they supported me too.
I remember the mess (heck, I even remember thinking and calling you a cheap man using his Gaming With Pornstars ideas to earn cheap controversy, but was put in the wrong seeing actually decent gaming material - I was always more of a "well made/poorly made" morality) - can you share on the support given, though? I am genuinely curious.
Quote from: Swiss Toni;646964Also, sticking this in other games is monumentally fuckwitted.
It's an rpg. All this pathetic guff about 'ooh, it's teh storygame' is sadsack city and people that push it should feel bad about themselves.
Get over it, it's terribly embarrassing.
It's none any of those, but this is not a thread to discuss it. We can discuss this elsewhere, though it as really done a hundred times. The gist of the problem is - my issue, for one, is with Forge's attempt to redefine RPGs as storygames, not storygames themselves.
That and the whole "player emancipation" and "GM castration" things that were part of that movement.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;646991I just checked out the offending thread, and the PDF art work. I like the cover. Reminds me of something... I will go and read more in a bit.
But, the art that got a lot of people upset? Seriously? Really? I must be living under a very privileged rock. People do allow the funniest things get to them.
I could imagine a lot of knickers getting very twisted if they walked around where I live. Not only are men paying to spend time talking to women (and to do other things quite openly), there are women here who WANT to be housewives and don't want the kind of power structure as defined by a lot of the more vocal Western Feminists! Imagine!
Western Feminism, like any movement really, was hijacked by those who wish to gain special treatment, under an excuse of having less rights. There are however also those feminists, who are fighting the good fight. There's a deep ideological split between those who fight for domination, and those who fight for further emancipation. I myself support some actions of the latter (such as the right for abortions, or sexual education classes in schools).
Anon Adderlan - I was going to dignify you with lengthy and witty (as usual for me, of course) response. But then I have realised that I'd be speaking to an equivalent of a door - to - door Jehova Witness, and sorry, but I don't have time to talk about Ron Edwards.
I'll however just speak on one point though.
QuoteLike a wayward son, they'll complain about their homelife at their friend's house, but would never take that tone with mommy, and will go right back home when they need money
:rolleyes:
Pecunia non olet, as you will learn once you finish college. I won't target my game towards nor the social justice warriors that hijacked Ian's work, nor to the storygaming crowds. But if they'd want my product, and they will give me money for it - well, I don't care about the size or colour of the hand that hands me coin. I'd not however get boggled down in a discussing with a group I care little for as customers, for I doubt my product'd be for them.
Quote from: Rincewind1;647015Western Feminism, like any movement really, was hijacked by those who wish to gain special treatment, under an excuse of having less rights. There are however also those feminists, who are fighting the good fight. There's a deep ideological split between those who fight for domination, and those who fight for further emancipation. I myself support some actions of the latter (such as the right for abortions, or sexual education classes in schools).
I quite agree. I would love to see the bunfight between factions.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;646991I just checked out the offending thread, and the PDF art work. I like the cover. Reminds me of something... I will go and read more in a bit.
But, the art that got a lot of people upset? Seriously? Really? I must be living under a very privileged rock. People do allow the funniest things get to them.
I could imagine a lot of knickers getting very twisted if they walked around where I live. Not only are men paying to spend time talking to women (and to do other things quite openly), there are women here who WANT to be housewives and don't want the kind of power structure as defined by a lot of the more vocal Western Feminists! Imagine!
You might want to read up on feminism. Things have progressed a fair bit outside what a few feminists were saying back in the 1970's. Amazing, but true.
The problem with the people that do the internet crusade is that their outrage isn't really about feminism, but about being cross at someone in a context they can get away with.
Context itself also ends up being something that doesn't exist.
those borders do look a bit cheesy.
tits don't offend me though.
Did you consciously try to emulate the borders of the First Editon Mongoose Conan?
Are you going to allow someone the option of getting the book with the Succubus/Cthulhu page borders?
Quote from: Rincewind1;647015I remember the mess (heck, I even remember thinking and calling you a cheap man using his Gaming With Pornstars ideas to earn cheap controversy, but was put in the wrong seeing actually decent gaming material
Yeah, there was a lot of that, and because of what I learned during that I would totally support anyone who has to deal with the ignorant shit-headed hypocrisy of people who behaved the way you did.
Quote from: Rincewind1;647015- I was always more of a "well made/poorly made" morality) - can you share on the support given, though? I am genuinely curious.
If I see the jackals circling someone who does good work, I send them all the traffic I can. By RPG Kickstarter standards it's a decent amount.
Quote from: Rincewind1;647015This is a tricky question, because you see, if I were to say "to remove the sexy art/to put more inclusive art", I could easily be branded sexist here - that's why such questions are problematic. My issue is less with what demands you gave into, but the giving into the demands themselves. There's a difference between listening to your customer/target base, and what happened here. What happened here was a small group of people with an agenda, thinking they could force someone uninterested in their social issues, to take the stance on them - and alongside them, no less. Trying to force you to pander to them, so to speak. No product is universal - that's the limitation you need to accept everywhere.
From my perspective, for us to take Blade from a piece of fanon to an Indie publication we had to own the illustrations in the book. That meant replacing all but a handful of illustrations in the Beta PDF. So the Kickstarter was needed to provide the money for commissioning the artwork and for redoing the layout.
As a result of that, in the rpg.net thread just about the first thing I said was that all the artwork was going apart from the page wrap. That led to a lot of focus on the page wrap, and by the end of the thread everyone was aware that it wasn't changing for the colour editions (and there was never any intention of using it for the B&W editions).
Quote from: Rincewind1;647015Well, that makes the two of us non - US residents discussing US problems. I think we'd agree though, that while we need to accept and be wary of those attitudes in works of the era, they are not vehemently racist & sexist, nor were they written with spread of racism & sexist as primary agenda.
Indeed that is my point -- those works were not written to promote a racist or sexist agenda, nor were the authors of those works sexist or racist. They were the products of their environment -- to say that they were sexist or racist is to say that all the people of that era were sexist and racist. I don't believe they were -- clearly there are some who do. I'm not particularly concerned about the distinction myself.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: CRKrueger;647105Did you consciously try to emulate the borders of the First Editon Mongoose Conan?
That's funny. The way you guys view storygames is the way we view d20.
Quote from: CRKrueger;647105Are you going to allow someone the option of getting the book with the Succubus/Cthulhu page borders?
There isn't any alternative -- if you want the colour PDF/softcover/hardcover of Blade then you get the colour pagewrap as used in the Beta PDF.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;647202From my perspective, for us to take Blade from a piece of fanon to an Indie publication we had to own the illustrations in the book. That meant replacing all but a handful of illustrations in the Beta PDF. So the Kickstarter was needed to provide the money for commissioning the artwork and for redoing the layout.
As a result of that, in the rpg.net thread just about the first thing I said was that all the artwork was going apart from the page wrap. That led to a lot of focus on the page wrap, and by the end of the thread everyone was aware that it wasn't changing for the colour editions (and there was never any intention of using it for the B&W editions).
Yes, I understood that was to be, therefore even weirder all that outrage, since it was just a "beta" art anyway. You did seem to negotiate, at least at first, on the issue of page wrap - although whether it was negotiation or soap in the eyes, I'm not asking. Some things need to be a trade secret, after all.
Well, while I still have some, for the lack of better word, "moral" disagreement on the issue's handling (I am of Wildian morality on the issue of art, and just a random guy on the Internet to boot), and I have no interest in the project, good luck.
QuoteIndeed that is my point -- those works were not written to promote a racist or sexist agenda, nor were the authors of those works sexist or racist. They were the products of their environment -- to say that they were sexist or racist is to say that all the people of that era were sexist and racist. I don't believe they were -- clearly there are some who do. I'm not particularly concerned about the distinction myself.
Regards,
Ian P.
Indeed, yet one can see the certain vocal minorities speak up every time such a work is mentioned - a work reminiscent of the 30s themes, such as Sword & Sorcery. I muse that the best way to minimise those voices is to simply publish something else first - something that proves you have no social agenda one way or the other.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;647204That's funny. The way you guys view storygames is the way we view d20.
I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wondering. Since you're going for a S&S vibe, you have to admit, the page wrap is similar (full color page wrap, sword and sorcery vibe with characters and tits.
Quote from: Zak S;647108If I see the jackals circling someone who does good work, I send them all the traffic I can.
I do the same thing with my wallet. My buying history at RPGNow includes quite a few writers and artists who've been the target of Internet pile-ons.
Quote from: CRKrueger;647218I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wondering. Since you're going for a S&S vibe, you have to admit, the page wrap is similar (full color page wrap, sword and sorcery vibe with characters and tits.
Don't forget about tits.
Quote from: Rincewind1;647220Don't forget about tits.
Is that even possible?
Quote from: CRKrueger;647218I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wondering. Since you're going for a S&S vibe, you have to admit, the page wrap is similar (full color page wrap, sword and sorcery vibe with characters and tits.
You can compare the page wraps here:
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=10138&p=219512
To me they're not similar in style or content. But YMMV.
Regards,
Ian P.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646974I know there are people for whom their online presence is a significant part of their day. That's not me. I participate on the Blade forum, and that's about it. Our Kickstarter ran for 20 days. I was away for five of those days. Blade's authors didn't participate in the Kickstarter process for their individual reasons. So for a couple of weeks I became responsible for answering questions and addressing concerns about the game from people external to the Blade community.
This activity is of course not my family. It's not my job. It's not even my primary hobby. It's not even the main thing I'm doing with regards to Blade (which would be the development of the game). What I'm trying to get at here is that there isn't much time to dedicate to this "online presence" task. This necessitates a certain pragmatism -- is the time spent here moving the project forward? Or not? If not, can it wait until after the Kickstarter completes? That sort of thing
Participation in that rpg.net thread was ultimately about attracting Backers. But then again, participation in any thread at that time was about attracting Backers.
Now, it's a different matter. Having responded to dozens and dozens of threads about Blade over the last month, I've seen just about everything when it comes to commentary on Blade. But some threads remain interesting in their own right, such as this one.
These are some of the most common issues people run into when running a Kickstarter. They're unexpected, and Kickstarter really doesn't provide any tools or tutorials which help you address them. It's the reason I deliberately kept my first Kickstarter small, and it's STILL taking up a larger part of my time and resources than expected.
Which reminds me, I really should post another update.
Unlike dice, RPGs are complicated projects, and you will get a lot of questions. This is why many projects only really target their core communities, even going so far as to move all communication to a single forum. And if you do decide to post in another community, you need to be prepared to participate; to make sure misunderstandings are corrected; to make sure they don't feel like you're exploiting them. It's why RPG companies still use NDAs on incomplete projects.
Managing expectations is much like setting off a controlled wildfire.
Quote from: Ian.Plumb;647258You can compare the page wraps here:
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=10138&p=219512
To me they're not similar in style or content. But YMMV.
Regards,
Ian P.
I can't see it too clearly (it's blurry), but the page wrap for your game looks pretty cool. I like it, and it seems more visually appealing than the page wrap for Mongoose Conan. The bitching and trolling on the rpgnet thread was insane. If it had continued much longer, it might have drifted into boycott territory. I wish that I'd discovered this Kickstarter earlier, because it looks interesting. Oh, well... :o
Quote from: Sacrosanct;646709Holy hell, that describes Sage Genesis to a "T". Any time someone disagrees with him, he pulls out the "I really like this site and community, and your posting style really doesn't gel well and I think you'd get along a lot better with everyone at this great site if you changed how you posted."
But since he's on the same side as Kai, he never gets warned for it.
..and he, and all other that try playing that game, end up on my ignore list to shout their offence trolling into the uncaring void...
Quote from: Rincewind1;646564This thread has truly disgusted me. The man has bent backwards, and for what? A vague promise of a few dollars? To sell one's vision for golden bars, I can understand, but for a mess of pottage? Then again, it may be one big switcheroo (seeing as he artfully dodged, in the end, the boo boo about page corners or w/e), to sucker - punch the SJW crowd out of their 5$, in which - well, I prefer when lowly demagoguery is done for golden bars, but I'll also understand if it's done for a pint.
It's not the first time this stuff has happened over there...
I remember a thread about an AD&D2e retroclone where the clone creators had managed to get one of the big 2e illustrators (not Elmore) to make the cover, of a hot wizardess summoning an imp, and there was this huge ragegasm and the creator seemed to buck to the demands and not use the (great) illustration...man that made me mad...:(
Since when was riddle of steel a 'storygame'?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;647647Since when was riddle of steel a 'storygame'?
Since it became a Forge fave, I guess (Edwards loves it).
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;647647Since when was riddle of steel a 'storygame'?
Yeah, I was baffled as well. I think this is another case of 'guilt by association' on the Pundit's part.
Quote from: TristramEvans;647762Yeah, I was baffled as well. I think this is another case of 'guilt by association' on the Pundit's part.
I think you'll find the thread was posted to this forum. The clue is in the thread title, i think, should you wish to see it.
Yes, the thread was posted by CRKruger from the start here.
And on a funny note - remember how I said that I posted my words here on RPG.net and removed them? Well, turns out I was sniped out none the less (and by our pet favourite of the hour, too!), despite the post disappearing in next five minutes.
Quote from: Rincewind1;647962Yes, the thread was posted by CRKruger from the start here.
And on a funny note - remember how I said that I posted my words here on RPG.net and removed them? Well, turns out I was sniped out none the less (and by our pet favourite of the hour, too!), despite the post disappearing in next five minutes.
What, exactly, were you expecting?
And you got, horror of horrors, a thread ban. Oh noes.
Quote from: Ladybird;648036What, exactly, were you expecting?
And you got, horror of horrors, a thread ban. Oh noes.
I don't care. I was just laughing because the post existed for about 3 - 5 minutes, and it got on the radar already. I've seen banks less monitored.
Quote from: One Horse Town;647845I think you'll find the thread was posted to this forum. The clue is in the thread title, i think, should you wish to see it.
Fair enough, and I think someone mentioned the new version now includes things like "scene editing" so...meh. I think I was just expressing anoyance over the whole car wars sillyness.
Oh, to not be in so prudish a time and place as to think a picture of a topless demon woman is "misogyny". What must these people think of the great art of past epochs; I shudder to think of how they perceive the breast of the Madonna.
It's situations like this that make me wish I had been born in the Victorian era. At least people then were ribald in their perversions and had the good sense to keep their preferences to the private sphere of life. And they were capable of apprehending the beauty of a naked body without a hue and cry of personal oppression.
Quote from: Géza Echs;648507Oh, to not be in so prudish a time and place as to think a picture of a topless demon woman is "misogyny". What must these people think of the great art of past epochs; I shudder to think of how they perceive the breast of the Madonna.
It's situations like this that make me wish I had been born in the Victorian era. At least people then were ribald in their perversions and had the good sense to keep their preferences to the private sphere of life. And they were capable of apprehending the beauty of a naked body without a hue and cry of personal oppression.
Bravo, sir.
Quote from: Géza Echs;648507Oh, to not be in so prudish a time and place as to think a picture of a topless demon woman is "misogyny". What must these people think of the great art of past epochs; I shudder to think of how they perceive the breast of the Madonna.
It's situations like this that make me wish I had been born in the Victorian era. At least people then were ribald in their perversions and had the good sense to keep their preferences to the private sphere of life. And they were capable of apprehending the beauty of a naked body without a hue and cry of personal oppression.
Indeed. Well put.