Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646940Heh, no problem. Happy to chat!


From our perspective we certainly don't see Blade as a commercial work. It was written as a free download for the Blade community -- a piece of fanon, if you like. Community members asked us to produce a hardcopy they could buy. So we built the Kickstarter Rewards on the forum and when that thread settled we created the actual Kickstarter project. The bulk of project Backers came from within our own community. Our intention was to use Kickstarter as a tool for collecting the funds of our members -- to some extent it didn't occur to us that people who had never seen the Beta PDF would be interested in Backing us.

I see - that's nice of you. The free PDF, that is. I always said that Eclipse Phase' model has more merit than it may look on the first glance.

QuoteFrom your perspective, what do you see as the demands that we gave in to?

This is a tricky question, because you see, if I were to say "to remove the sexy art/to put more inclusive art", I could easily be branded sexist here - that's why such questions are problematic. My issue is less with what demands you gave into, but the giving into the demands themselves. There's a difference between listening to your customer/target base, and what happened here. What happened here was a small group of people with an agenda, thinking they could force someone uninterested in their social issues, to take the stance on them - and alongside them, no less. Trying to force you to pander to them, so to speak. No product is universal - that's the limitation you need to accept everywhere.

Then again, you have to admit that naked ladies on every corner are a bit tacky . Not that I mind it too much.

edit: The principal problem for me here is that I saw the classic example of wiping up a mob in that thread. First you have people saying "yeah I'm interested, all right", then you have someone going "This is outrageous! This is xist!", the shout attracts a few other criers, and some people, those who, for example, wish for acceptance of those groups, start suddenly backing out or reconsidering their interest, because, gods forbid, they may be an enemy of that group as well. That, to me, is the most dangerous phenomena here.

QuoteI'll be candid here -- as I'm not a US resident, I don't really get the hypersensitivity to these issues. I don't think I could unless I had been raised there. That said, when you read the pulps of the era you see little difference in the values expressed between genres. The attitudes prevelent in the S&S tales are there in the detective stories, and the war stories, and the cowboy stories. Even when you move from low-brow fiction to high-brow fiction, the sexism and racism are still there in the works of that era.

Well, that makes the two of us non - US residents discussing US problems. I think we'd agree though, that while we need to accept and be wary of those attitudes in works of the era, they are not vehemently racist & sexist, nor were they written with spread of racism & sexist as primary agenda.

QuoteBut in the end -- does it matter? I don't know -- but I'm not sure I care much either. I like playing RPGs. In our gaming group the gender split is even. I suspect that has more to do with whether the scenario material is sexist that any game artwork or mechanics ever could.

Regards,

Ian P.

Well put - I'd say that the key is a simple, normal respect for another human being.

Quote from: Zak S;646960People supported Raggi when (and because) he took a stand against puritanical bullshit, and they supported me too.

I remember the mess (heck, I even remember thinking and calling you a cheap man using his Gaming With Pornstars ideas to earn cheap controversy, but was put in the wrong seeing actually decent gaming material - I was always more of a "well made/poorly made" morality) - can you share on the support given, though? I am genuinely curious.

Quote from: Swiss Toni;646964Also, sticking this in other games is monumentally fuckwitted.

It's an rpg. All this pathetic guff about 'ooh, it's teh storygame' is sadsack city and people that push it should feel bad about themselves.

Get over it, it's terribly embarrassing.

It's none any of those, but this is not a thread to discuss it. We can discuss this elsewhere, though it as really done a hundred times. The gist of the problem is - my issue, for one, is with Forge's attempt to redefine RPGs as storygames, not storygames themselves.

That and the whole "player emancipation" and "GM castration" things that were part of that movement.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;646991I just checked out the offending thread, and the PDF art work. I like the cover. Reminds me of something... I will go and read more in a bit.

But, the art that got a lot of people upset? Seriously? Really? I must be living under a very privileged rock. People do allow the funniest things get to them.

I could imagine a lot of knickers getting very twisted if they walked around where I live. Not only are men paying to spend time talking to women (and to do other things quite openly), there are women here who WANT to be housewives and don't want the kind of power structure as defined by a lot of the more vocal Western Feminists! Imagine!

Western Feminism, like any movement really, was hijacked by those who wish to gain special treatment, under an excuse of having less rights. There are however also those feminists, who are fighting the good fight. There's a deep ideological split between those who fight for domination, and those who fight for further emancipation. I myself support some actions of the latter (such as the right for abortions, or sexual education classes in schools).

Anon Adderlan - I was going to dignify you with lengthy and witty (as usual for me, of course) response. But then I have realised that I'd be speaking to an equivalent of a door - to - door Jehova Witness, and sorry, but I don't have time to talk about Ron Edwards.

I'll however just speak on one point though.

QuoteLike a wayward son, they'll complain about their homelife at their friend's house, but would never take that tone with mommy, and will go right back home when they need money

:rolleyes:

Pecunia non olet, as you will learn once you finish college. I won't target my game towards nor the social justice warriors that hijacked Ian's work, nor to the storygaming crowds. But if they'd want my product, and they will give me money for it - well, I don't care about the size or colour of the hand that hands me coin. I'd not however get boggled down in a discussing with a group I care little for as customers, for I doubt my product'd be for them.

Quote from: Rincewind1;647015Western Feminism, like any movement really, was hijacked by those who wish to gain special treatment, under an excuse of having less rights. There are however also those feminists, who are fighting the good fight. There's a deep ideological split between those who fight for domination, and those who fight for further emancipation. I myself support some actions of the latter (such as the right for abortions, or sexual education classes in schools).

I quite agree. I would love to see the bunfight between factions.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;646991I just checked out the offending thread, and the PDF art work. I like the cover. Reminds me of something... I will go and read more in a bit.

But, the art that got a lot of people upset? Seriously? Really? I must be living under a very privileged rock. People do allow the funniest things get to them.

I could imagine a lot of knickers getting very twisted if they walked around where I live. Not only are men paying to spend time talking to women (and to do other things quite openly), there are women here who WANT to be housewives and don't want the kind of power structure as defined by a lot of the more vocal Western Feminists! Imagine!

You might want to read up on feminism. Things have progressed a fair bit outside what a few feminists were saying back in the 1970's. Amazing, but true.

The problem with the people that do the internet crusade is that their outrage isn't really about feminism, but about being cross at someone in a context they can get away with.

Context itself also ends up being something that doesn't exist.

those borders do look a bit cheesy.

tits don't offend me though.

Did you consciously try to emulate the borders of the First Editon Mongoose Conan?

Are you going to allow someone the option of getting the book with the Succubus/Cthulhu page borders?

Quote from: Rincewind1;647015I remember the mess (heck, I even remember thinking and calling you a cheap man using his Gaming With Pornstars ideas to earn cheap controversy, but was put in the wrong seeing actually decent gaming material

Yeah, there was a lot of that, and because of what I learned during that I would totally support anyone who has to deal with the ignorant shit-headed hypocrisy of people who behaved the way you did.

Quote from: Rincewind1;647015- I was always more of a "well made/poorly made" morality) - can you share on the support given, though? I am genuinely curious.

If I see the jackals circling someone who does good work, I send them all the traffic I can. By RPG Kickstarter standards it's a decent amount.

Quote from: Rincewind1;647015This is a tricky question, because you see, if I were to say "to remove the sexy art/to put more inclusive art", I could easily be branded sexist here - that's why such questions are problematic. My issue is less with what demands you gave into, but the giving into the demands themselves. There's a difference between listening to your customer/target base, and what happened here. What happened here was a small group of people with an agenda, thinking they could force someone uninterested in their social issues, to take the stance on them - and alongside them, no less. Trying to force you to pander to them, so to speak. No product is universal - that's the limitation you need to accept everywhere.

From my perspective, for us to take Blade from a piece of fanon to an Indie publication we had to own the illustrations in the book. That meant replacing all but a handful of illustrations in the Beta PDF. So the Kickstarter was needed to provide the money for commissioning the artwork and for redoing the layout.

As a result of that, in the rpg.net thread just about the first thing I said was that all the artwork was going apart from the page wrap. That led to a lot of focus on the page wrap, and by the end of the thread everyone was aware that it wasn't changing for the colour editions (and there was never any intention of using it for the B&W editions).

Quote from: Rincewind1;647015Well, that makes the two of us non - US residents discussing US problems. I think we'd agree though, that while we need to accept and be wary of those attitudes in works of the era, they are not vehemently racist & sexist, nor were they written with spread of racism & sexist as primary agenda.

Indeed that is my point -- those works were not written to promote a racist or sexist agenda, nor were the authors of those works sexist or racist. They were the products of their environment -- to say that they were sexist or racist is to say that all the people of that era were sexist and racist. I don't believe they were -- clearly there are some who do. I'm not particularly concerned about the distinction myself.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: CRKrueger;647105Did you consciously try to emulate the borders of the First Editon Mongoose Conan?

That's funny. The way you guys view storygames is the way we view d20.

Quote from: CRKrueger;647105Are you going to allow someone the option of getting the book with the Succubus/Cthulhu page borders?

There isn't any alternative -- if you want the colour PDF/softcover/hardcover of Blade then you get the colour pagewrap as used in the Beta PDF.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;647202From my perspective, for us to take Blade from a piece of fanon to an Indie publication we had to own the illustrations in the book. That meant replacing all but a handful of illustrations in the Beta PDF. So the Kickstarter was needed to provide the money for commissioning the artwork and for redoing the layout.

As a result of that, in the rpg.net thread just about the first thing I said was that all the artwork was going apart from the page wrap. That led to a lot of focus on the page wrap, and by the end of the thread everyone was aware that it wasn't changing for the colour editions (and there was never any intention of using it for the B&W editions).

Yes, I understood that was to be, therefore even weirder all that outrage, since it was just a "beta" art anyway. You did seem to negotiate, at least at first, on the issue of page wrap - although whether it was negotiation or soap in the eyes, I'm not asking. Some things need to be a trade secret, after all.

Well, while I still have some, for the lack of better word, "moral" disagreement on the issue's handling (I am of Wildian morality on the issue of art, and just a random guy on the Internet to boot), and I have no interest in the project, good luck.

QuoteIndeed that is my point -- those works were not written to promote a racist or sexist agenda, nor were the authors of those works sexist or racist. They were the products of their environment -- to say that they were sexist or racist is to say that all the people of that era were sexist and racist. I don't believe they were -- clearly there are some who do. I'm not particularly concerned about the distinction myself.

Regards,

Ian P.

Indeed, yet one can see the certain vocal minorities speak up every time such a work is mentioned - a work reminiscent of the 30s themes, such as Sword & Sorcery. I muse that the best way to minimise those voices is to simply publish something else first - something that proves you have no social agenda one way or the other.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;647204That's funny. The way you guys view storygames is the way we view d20.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wondering.  Since you're going for a S&S vibe, you have to admit, the page wrap is similar (full color page wrap, sword and sorcery vibe with characters and tits.

Quote from: Zak S;647108If I see the jackals circling someone who does good work, I send them all the traffic I can.

I do the same thing with my wallet. My buying history at RPGNow includes quite a few writers and artists who've been the target of Internet pile-ons.

Quote from: CRKrueger;647218I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wondering.  Since you're going for a S&S vibe, you have to admit, the page wrap is similar (full color page wrap, sword and sorcery vibe with characters and tits.

Don't forget about tits.

Quote from: Rincewind1;647220Don't forget about tits.

Is that even possible?

Quote from: CRKrueger;647218I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wondering.  Since you're going for a S&S vibe, you have to admit, the page wrap is similar (full color page wrap, sword and sorcery vibe with characters and tits.

You can compare the page wraps here:

http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=10138&p=219512

To me they're not similar in style or content. But YMMV.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646974I know there are people for whom their online presence is a significant part of their day. That's not me. I participate on the Blade forum, and that's about it. Our Kickstarter ran for 20 days. I was away for five of those days. Blade's authors didn't participate in the Kickstarter process for their individual reasons. So for a couple of weeks I became responsible for answering questions and addressing concerns about the game from people external to the Blade community.

This activity is of course not my family. It's not my job. It's not even my primary hobby. It's not even the main thing I'm doing with regards to Blade (which would be the development of the game). What I'm trying to get at here is that there isn't much time to dedicate to this "online presence" task. This necessitates a certain pragmatism -- is the time spent here moving the project forward? Or not? If not, can it wait until after the Kickstarter completes? That sort of thing

Participation in that rpg.net thread was ultimately about attracting Backers. But then again, participation in any thread at that time was about attracting Backers.

Now, it's a different matter. Having responded to dozens and dozens of threads about Blade over the last month, I've seen just about everything when it comes to commentary on Blade. But some threads remain interesting in their own right, such as this one.

These are some of the most common issues people run into when running a Kickstarter. They're unexpected, and Kickstarter really doesn't provide any tools or tutorials which help you address them. It's the reason I deliberately kept my first Kickstarter small, and it's STILL taking up a larger part of my time and resources than expected.

Which reminds me, I really should post another update.

Unlike dice, RPGs are complicated projects, and you will get a lot of questions. This is why many projects only really target their core communities, even going so far as to move all communication to a single forum. And if you do decide to post in another community, you need to be prepared to participate; to make sure misunderstandings are corrected; to make sure they don't feel like you're exploiting them. It's why RPG companies still use NDAs on incomplete projects.

Managing expectations is much like setting off a controlled wildfire.