Quote from: Rincewind1;646564This thread has truly disgusted me. The man has bent backwards, and for what? A vague promise of a few dollars? To sell one's vision for golden bars, I can understand, but for a mess of pottage? Then again, it may be one big switcheroo (seeing as he artfully dodged, in the end, the boo boo about page corners or w/e), to sucker - punch the SJW crowd out of their 5$, in which - well, I prefer when lowly demagoguery is done for golden bars, but I'll also understand if it's done for a pint.

I've quite enjoyed this thread on two fronts. So while I'm new here, I'd like to respond to what you are saying here.

In essence a thread similar to the rpg.net thread with the same motif occurred over on storygames.com when the free Beta was released back in January. I responded to the questions regarding the mechanics and comparisons to TRoS, and sought clarification about a comment that the game was about "whites killing blacks". I responded to that one simply because I was genuinely mystified as to how anyone could draw that conclusion. The thread soon died for lack of oxygen.

On rpg.net the thread attracted far more posters and was far more vocal. The choice then is clear -- ignore it and hope it dies. The problem with that approach is that it was clear that people were posting based on what other people had posted and not on any sighting of the game. In a sense this is more problematic than people posting who have seen the game.

Keep in mind that at the time we're running a Kickstarter so the only point to any use of our time over those 20 days is to attract the funding we needed to make our Funding Goal. So it only makes sense to engage at that time if it will end up contributing funds.

In the end 9% of our total funding came from people who clicked through the link on that thread to our Kickstarter. After our own website members, it was the single largest source of funding -- including Kickstarter itself. Without those funds coming in on the last Friday and Saturday we may not have made our Funding Goal.

Regards,

Ian P.

Ian,

Did you have to feed the beast?

Someone translates "there are topless women in the preview art" into "OMG, are they saying women can't be heroes!??!!"

If you just have the courage to tell those people "Listen, you're a stupid and terrible person and a cancer on the real struggle for social equality and it is important that you kill yourself as soon as you find a tall enough building" and I can guarantee your funding would've gone through the roof.

Quote from: CRKrueger;646570Take TRoS, "streamline" the combat and add mechanics such as "Limelight" and, I shit you not "Scene Request".

Have you played the Beta of Blade?

TRoS always followed one particular PC melee combatant until "something interesting happened" and then moved to the next PC combatant. As such, it was not an "I Go/You Go" combat system. Instead, combat was described as "cinematic" -- not unrealistic, as some might interpret that, but as functionally similar to literary or cinema scenes.

Blade formalises that concept. Combat is cinematic, in that the camera stays with a particular combatant until something interesting happens to them and then the camera cuts to the next PC. Rather than desribing a set amount of time for actions, the duration of that character's activity is described as a Limelight. It seemed sensible given that the combat is "cinematic."

TRoS had a number of holes in its system and holdovers from past versions that made it through to the final print run even though they didn't belong. An example of this would be the references to miniatures -- where movement ranges are described and thrown/missile weapon ranges are described, yet the melee combat environment is abstracted and so there is no distance reference used in combat. Blade "streamlines" the combat system by removing the holes and holdovers. The combat system itself contains all of the manoeuvres present in TRoS and has been described as crunchy.

TRoS had its Luck SA and The Companion has a Drama mechanic. Blade has a revised Drama mechanic that is far more powerful, but rarer to use. It's usage largely serves the design goal of "player-driven story".

More than happy to discuss Blade's design goals and add thoughts on the comparison of aspects of TRoS to Blade.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: Zak S;646909If you just have the courage to tell those people "Listen, you're a stupid and terrible person and a cancer on the real struggle for social equality and it is important that you kill yourself as soon as you find a tall enough building" and I can guarantee your funding would've gone through the roof.

So I lack courage and you would have put up your own money to get us over the line?

If only I'd known both those things before we launched the Kickstarter...



Regards,

Ian P.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for coming to us for this discussion Ian, so that I may not feel like a coward hiding in a hole and talking behind your back. I was going to post my words on RPG.net, but then removed the post as I consider a distant possibility of sometime using that site as a platform for an advertisement of my own. I've also considered sending you an e - mail, but I couldn't find one.  Then again, I admit I was not very diligent in my search

I understand your position all too well - I myself am a bit torn on this issue. On one hand, I have often voiced the notion that RPGs are a commercial product, and therefore ought to target the largest audience as possible. On the other, if you are designing an RPG that is actually a setting & mechanics, rather than just the mechanics themselves,  there is a certain motion of a vision to the work, and one has at least some of the typical artist's responsibilities.

 I have long argued that a developer can not just sit in an ivory tower, ignorant of the opinions of the customers. But on the other hand, witnessing what happened to you, got me thinking. Because you have allowed a group of armchair critics and political agendas warriors to burst into your work, and start claiming it as their own. I'm not an enemy of inclusive art in RPGs, but that conversation was looking as a borderline threat of boycott.

I understand why you chose to give into these demands. I am not entirely saying you should not have. But on the other hand, the question is, where does this stop? We see organised minorities put their muddy fingers in more and more works of art, both from the right wing and the left wing, as we witness a war for the culture. I know that what transpired here was not exactly a world - shattering event (no offence), but I think this not as much creates, but showcases a much larger precedent, a precedent of another form of censorship, as minorities threaten to destroy projects with the powers of boycott. I do not know what I'd do in your situation - well, truth be told, I do. I'd price the more inclusive art at 20k on the Kickstarter, ensuring I'd pocket a fair bit of that, if I am to sell my soul to the naysayers. After all, as the old joke goes, the worst crime of Judas was that he sold Jesus on the cheap.

I, personally, think you could have pulled the Kickstarter while ignoring the voices here. Whenever a Sword & Sorcery RPG or book crops up, you hear the voices about the legacy of racism and sexism - and while I may be inclined to agree that not all is right in the realm of Howard on the former, the latter is kind of laughable to anyone who read Red Nails or Queen of the Black Coast. And even the racial issues are often overblown, but I understand that America has a problematic cultural war on that subject nowadays. Countless authors just moved away from the issues, and were successful. Ultimately, it was your decision, and the effects but remain to be seen.

Quote from: Zak S;646909Ian,

Did you have to feed the beast?

Someone translates "there are topless women in the preview art" into "OMG, are they saying women can't be heroes!??!!"

If you just have the courage to tell those people "Listen, you're a stupid and terrible person and a cancer on the real struggle for social equality and it is important that you kill yourself as soon as you find a tall enough building" and I can guarantee your funding would've gone through the roof.

Yes, I think that Sharia laws and the "abort all girls" social standard of the Thailand, China and India are far more damaging to the women equality than all the nude pictures.

But hey, those women don't have access to donate to your cause on the Internet, so why bother?

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915First of all, I'd like to thank you for coming to us for this discussion Ian...

Heh, no problem. Happy to chat!

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I understand your position all too well - I myself am a bit torn on this issue. On one hand, I have often voiced the notion that RPGs are a commercial product, and therefore ought to target the largest audience as possible. On the other, if you are designing an RPG that is actually a setting & mechanics, rather than just the mechanics themselves,  there is a certain motion of a vision to the work, and one has at least some of the typical artist's responsibilities.

From our perspective we certainly don't see Blade as a commercial work. It was written as a free download for the Blade community -- a piece of fanon, if you like. Community members asked us to produce a hardcopy they could buy. So we built the Kickstarter Rewards on the forum and when that thread settled we created the actual Kickstarter project. The bulk of project Backers came from within our own community. Our intention was to use Kickstarter as a tool for collecting the funds of our members -- to some extent it didn't occur to us that people who had never seen the Beta PDF would be interested in Backing us.

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I understand why you chose to give into these demands. I am not entirely saying you should not have.

From your perspective, what do you see as the demands that we gave in to?

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915Whenever a Sword & Sorcery RPG or book crops up, you hear the voices about the legacy of racism and sexism - and while I may be inclined to agree that not all is right in the realm of Howard on the former, the latter is kind of laughable to anyone who read Red Nails or Queen of the Black Coast. And even the racial issues are often overblown, but I understand that America has a problematic cultural war on that subject nowadays. Countless authors just moved away from the issues, and were successful. Ultimately, it was your decision, and the effects but remain to be seen.

I'll be candid here -- as I'm not a US resident, I don't really get the hypersensitivity to these issues. I don't think I could unless I had been raised there. That said, when you read the pulps of the era you see little difference in the values expressed between genres. The attitudes prevelent in the S&S tales are there in the detective stories, and the war stories, and the cowboy stories. Even when you move from low-brow fiction to high-brow fiction, the sexism and racism are still there in the works of that era.

But in the end -- does it matter? I don't know -- but I'm not sure I care much either. I like playing RPGs. In our gaming group the gender split is even. I suspect that has more to do with whether the scenario material is sexist that any game artwork or mechanics ever could.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646911So I lack courage and you would have put up your own money to get us over the line?

If only I'd known both those things before we launched the Kickstarter...



Regards,

Ian P.

People supported Raggi when (and because) he took a stand against puritanical bullshit, and they supported me too.

I think you probably took the best route really. The problem with some of the people that were berating you is that they aren't arguing in good faith.

They just want to be angry with someone and be seen as championing the cause.

The irony, as we have seen, is that the way they do this is often pretty counterproductive.

Big fan of Riddle, so looking forward to our group eventually giving Blade a go. I'm shit at mechanics, but the wonks in our group have liked what they have read from the free release.

Also, sticking this in other games is monumentally fuckwitted.

It's an rpg. All this pathetic guff about 'ooh, it's teh storygame' is sadsack city and people that push it should feel bad about themselves.

Get over it, it's terribly embarrassing.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646905I've quite enjoyed this thread on two fronts. So while I'm new here, I'd like to respond to what you are saying here.

In essence a thread similar to the rpg.net thread with the same motif occurred over on storygames.com when the free Beta was released back in January. I responded to the questions regarding the mechanics and comparisons to TRoS, and sought clarification about a comment that the game was about "whites killing blacks". I responded to that one simply because I was genuinely mystified as to how anyone could draw that conclusion.

Ian, I just want to say shine on.

You went to Storygames, and they accused you of Racism. You went to RPG.NET, and they accused you of Sexism (and somehow homophobia), now you're at TheRPGSite, and they accuse you of writing a Storygame, which here is WORSE than Sexism and Racism combined!

Mind you I have no idea how much truth there is to most of this, but the accusations on RPG.NET were overblown, even if there was a valid basis for them and I partly agreed. But that's the thing: Hyperbole is designed to force you to take sides as opposed to resolve conflicts, and renders reasoned positions ineffective.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646905Keep in mind that at the time we're running a Kickstarter so the only point to any use of our time over those 20 days is to attract the funding we needed to make our Funding Goal. So it only makes sense to engage at that time if it will end up contributing funds.

On the other hand, this is actually worse that inadvertent racism/sexism/storygaming. Basically, you're saying you were ONLY doing it for the money, and not to participate in the community or address the issues involved, which makes it look like you were deliberately manipulating the community with controversy as a marketing tactic.

Just be aware that the RPG market is too small for these sorts of tactics to work in the long term. Also, for a really successful Kickstarter you should talk about your game before the Kickstarter begins.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646905In the end 9% of our total funding came from people who clicked through the link on that thread to our Kickstarter. After our own website members, it was the single largest source of funding -- including Kickstarter itself.

Interesting.

Quote from: Zak S;646909Did you have to feed the beast?

Dude, the beast shat out 9%. And Ian handled it in a way that he didn't get banned. I respect that, even if I don't admire the tactics.

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I was going to post my words on RPG.net, but then removed the post as I consider a distant possibility of sometime using that site as a platform for an advertisement of my own.

Like a wayward son, they'll complain about their homelife at their friend's house, but would never take that tone with mommy, and will go right back home when they need money

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I've also considered sending you an e - mail, but I couldn't find one.

I know. It's not like RPG.NET's PM system is obvious or easy to use

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I understand why you chose to give into these demands. I am not entirely saying you should not have. But on the other hand, the question is, where does this stop?

PREACH IT!

If a man can marry a man, then why shouldn't he be able to marry his goat, or his car, or his business? And once we restrict gun clips to 10 rounds, you know the next step is 9, until the clips themselves are illegal!

Remember what I said about Hyperbole? QED.

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915We see organised minorities put their muddy fingers in more and more works of art, both from the right wing and the left wing, as we witness a war for the culture.

Art reflects culture as much as it defines it. Also I see more fine art and titties now than ever thanks to the internet. So art is doing fine.

Now the War on Christmas on the other hand...

Quote from: Rincewind1;646915I'd price the more inclusive art at 20k on the Kickstarter, ensuring I'd pocket a fair bit of that, if I am to sell my soul to the naysayers. After all, as the old joke goes, the worst crime of Judas was that he sold Jesus on the cheap.

You reminded me of the joke I heard at PAX, where Mike Krahulik jokingly suggested that the first stretch goal should be Dick Wolf t-shirts, the next one for their removal, and the next for their re-inclusion, etc.

Of course he was joking, while you're being a douchbag.

Many thanks for your post Anon. I appreciate what you've said, both here and on rpg.net.

Quote from: Ian.PlumbKeep in mind that at the time we're running a Kickstarter so the only point to any use of our time over those 20 days is to attract the funding we needed to make our Funding Goal. So it only makes sense to engage at that time if it will end up contributing funds.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;646968On the other hand, this is actually worse that inadvertent racism/sexism/storygaming. Basically, you're saying you were ONLY doing it for the money, and not to participate in the community or address the issues involved, which makes it look like you were deliberately manipulating the community with controversy as a marketing tactic.

I know there are people for whom their online presence is a significant part of their day. That's not me. I participate on the Blade forum, and that's about it. Our Kickstarter ran for 20 days. I was away for five of those days. Blade's authors didn't participate in the Kickstarter process for their individual reasons. So for a couple of weeks I became responsible for answering questions and addressing concerns about the game from people external to the Blade community.

This activity is of course not my family. It's not my job. It's not even my primary hobby. It's not even the main thing I'm doing with regards to Blade (which would be the development of the game). What I'm trying to get at here is that there isn't much time to dedicate to this "online presence" task. This necessitates a certain pragmatism -- is the time spent here moving the project forward? Or not? If not, can it wait until after the Kickstarter completes? That sort of thing

Participation in that rpg.net thread was ultimately about attracting Backers. But then again, participation in any thread at that time was about attracting Backers.

Now, it's a different matter. Having responded to dozens and dozens of threads about Blade over the last month, I've seen just about everything when it comes to commentary on Blade. But some threads remain interesting in their own right, such as this one.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: Swiss Toni;646963I'm shit at mechanics, but the wonks in our group have liked what they have read from the free release.

That one made me laugh. Thanks Toni! When you give Blade a go, I hope the combat isn't too crunchy for you. It can be a bit tricky at the start, but makes more sense as you get into it.

Regards,

Ian P.

Quote from: Ian.Plumb;646975That one made me laugh. Thanks Toni! When you give Blade a go, I hope the combat isn't too crunchy for you. It can be a bit tricky at the start, but makes more sense as you get into it.

Regards,

Ian P.

We've played Riddle a fair bit over the years and can get the combats to go pretty smoothly so we should be ok with this too.

I just checked out the offending thread, and the PDF art work. I like the cover. Reminds me of something... I will go and read more in a bit.

But, the art that got a lot of people upset? Seriously? Really? I must be living under a very privileged rock. People do allow the funniest things get to them.

I could imagine a lot of knickers getting very twisted if they walked around where I live. Not only are men paying to spend time talking to women (and to do other things quite openly), there are women here who WANT to be housewives and don't want the kind of power structure as defined by a lot of the more vocal Western Feminists! Imagine!