Can we avoid the grognards vs. WotC topic on here from now on? I really don't want this thread to devolve into YET another bitchfest about old vs. new gaming. Thanks.

Quote from: Benoist;425502Can we avoid the grognards vs. WotC topic on here from now on? I really don't want this thread to devolve into YET another bitchfest about old vs. new gaming. Thanks.

That's not what's going on. Furthermore, you posted an ad- commenting on it seems pretty on topic to me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;425434...
And this new S&W sounds just like OSRIC and abandons the concepts of S&W core / WB of getting back to the core basics.  Maybe that's a good idea since most Old Schoolers are AD&Ders and not OD&Ders or B/Xers.

The White Box version of S&W will continue to be available.  The 'core' S&W rules also will continue to be available (as a free PDF).

So lots of variants of S&W available now (much like D&D from 1974-1978).

I agree that the ad copy would be better off without the sniping (which is especially odd, given that FGG also produces material for Pathfinder).  But I don't think that it's a big deal.

Quote from: Akrasia;425515The White Box version of S&W will continue to be available.  The 'core' S&W rules also will continue to be available (as a free PDF).

So lots of variants of S&W available now (much like D&D from 1974-1978).

My one regret is that neither of the currently published print editions have a Mullen cover - I think he's one of the most charming and distinctive artists working in RPGs lately.

I agree completely; the original WB cover was awesome.

I like the interpretation of the classes - the Ranger writeup is my favourite ever and I like how the Fighter is a cool choice amongst all the  other options due to multiple attacks/parry ability/strength bonus to hit and damage. I'm glad that Jason Cone's simple balanced approach to fighting with 2 weapons or 2-handed has been incorporated. I also approve of the civilisation vs. blood-drenched anarchy approach to Law vs Chaos, the writeup gives the game a shade more 'darkness' than the Core Rules.

the total package - now with added Sea Monster!

Quote from: Spinachcat;425434Maybe that's a good idea since most Old Schoolers are AD&Ders and not OD&Ders or B/Xers.

I count it as a good idea.  I'd guess that the great majority of grognards got their start playing either Basic D&D or AD&D 1 or 2.  Hell, I started with Holmes Basic and I never even saw the original D&D rules until fairly recently.  I never was interested in S&W before mainly due to it only supporting 3 classes and having that whole bizarre elf stuff.  This new book is more what I expect D&D to be.

Quote from: Cole;425566My one regret is that neither of the currently published print editions have a Mullen cover - I think he's one of the most charming and distinctive artists working in RPGs lately.

I agree completely.  I love the original Mullen covers, for both the 'core' and 'WB' versions of S&W.

The new covers are fine, but they lack the distinctive look and quirky charm of the Mullen covers.

I strongly prefer the core rules cover to this new one.

I was reading through the S&W Complete Rules and... then I saw the Ranger. The description of the class:

Quote from: S&W Complete RulesYou and your fellow Rangers are the inheritors of ancient scholarship, students of forgotten skills and lore passed on from teacher to student over the generations, preserving the legacy through times when the light of civilization wavered and dimmed. The Rangers retreated to the wilderness and the outlands long ago; they seldom visit the decadent, glittering cities, for these are places that have turned aside from much of the lore the Rangers protect. As a Ranger, you are well-versed in the subtle skills of the wilderness, and you are a dangerous opponent in battle. Moreover, when you reach higher level, your studies and understanding of ancient lore will have developed to the point where you can actually cast spells. You are a guardian of civilization and a protector of the weak, normally hunting the creatures of chaos in the wild places where they lurk. You take the battle directly to the enemy, in its very lair.

That, to me, gentlemen, IS a Ranger. That makes me think of Aragorn, and not woodsmen somehow all wielding scimetars running through the wilderness with their bear buddies.

They are Lawful combatants, they keep to themselves, they do not accept the help of hirelings until they become Ranger Knights (8th level), they are alert, they track in the wilderness, they are keepers of ancient lores (giving them access to a few MU and Clerical spells), somehow are trained to fight against goblins and giants... man. That's a cool Ranger. I want to play this!

Quote from: Benoist;425808That's a cool Ranger. I want to play this!

Agree.  However, they sort of become less cool once the party has two of them.  Or the campaign setting has 600 of them.

Quote from: Benoist;425808That, to me, gentlemen, IS a Ranger. That makes me think of Aragorn, and not woodsmen somehow all wielding scimetars running through the wilderness with their bear buddies.

HELL YEAH!

I love this writeup.

Speaking of classes... how do they handle Thief abilities?

Quote from: winkingbishop;425870Agree.  However, they sort of become less cool once the party has two of them.  Or the campaign setting has 600 of them.

For sure (though somehow, an all ranger group fires up my imagination... hmm). The default rules indicate Str 13+ as prime attribute. If I scanned through the game well, there are no requisites for the classes, BUT these are included as a variant on p.25 of the rules (I would probably reinstate the prime requisites, precisely because part of the balance between classes is based upon them in the original game's logic). If you use this variant, you need Con 15, Int 12 and Wis 12 to be a Ranger.

Also note that until 8th level the Ranger cannot hire people, henchmen/hirelings, and that is a big drawback if you are playing the game classic AD&D style, because part of the survavibility of the characters depend on that resource management.

Quote from: The Butcher;425889HELL YEAH!

I love this writeup.

Speaking of classes... how do they handle Thief abilities?

Thieves skills are handled using percentile skills but for Hear Sounds, which uses the original d6 roll. The Thief's skills are: Climb Walls, Delicate Tasks (nimbleness if you will, from disabling some traps to picking pockets), Hide in Shadows, Move Silently and Open Locks.

Benoist, did you see Matt's explanation behind the Ranger class on the S&W forum ? If not, here it is -

'the way I put it included the words "inheritors of ancient knowledge," and there is the very strong suggestion that they are the equivalent of a secret order operating from the wilderness. It's the only way to explain the ability to use certain magic items later in the level progression, and the concept of a ranger-knight. Lots of people aren't fond of the Aragorn-ranger, but I think I have spun it in a way that captures the outcast-scholar-warrior mix without being particularly high fantasy or contrived. These guys live on the borders of civilization, they hold and study ancient mysteries, fighting for Law because that's their mission as an order, and even possibly looking down on the current form of the civilization they protect. They are the wolves that guard the borders, and being in the service of Law - here's an interesting aspect - they aren't at all allied with the neutrally-aligned druids. They aren't, necessarily, at all protective of the wilderness, as they are in the current gaming tropes. The wilderness is their hunting ground, not their mission.

Think of it this way - special-forces soldiers of the modern day are also really good at things like tracking and ambushes, but they're out there to protect their countries outside the actual borders, not to protect the trees and flowers of the ecology they parachute into. Moreover, the ecologies where they employ these skills are enemy territory.

So, imagine a military order of isolated modern commando/special forces troops, in a post-democratic nuclear holocaust society, working toward the rebuilding of a republic because the current form of government is monarchy. They won't submit to jack-all from a primitive monarchy, so they set up in the wilderness, where they are deadlier in any case. And the wilderness is chock-full of monstrous mutants who want to kill all humans. And the special forces guys know how to use certain technologies that are rare in the civilized (monarchic) world, so they have to teach these skills to new recruits and preserve the knowledge of the skills and the memory of democracy. That's more the "feel" of the S&W Complete-Rules ranger as I tried to convey it.'


He nailed it !