Quote from: MOB;956242Horus started a discussion in the RuneQuest forum at BRP Central which is bringing in RQ players of various stripes, as well as Jason Durall the RQ line editor.

I'll have to thank Jason, he and another poster really cleared up Rune points for me.

Quote from: HorusArisen;956243I've got to say that it's this attitude that got me interested in Glorantha, there was so much material and so many erudite scholars that it would be easy to be intimidated and put off but overall everyone is way more forgiving of canon breaks than virtually any other setting I've seen.

Sadly, that hasn't been my experience of it. Though I think Traveller zealots were/are probably worse IME.
And I'm sure some of my gruff regarding RQ7/RQG is still just sour grapes over Glorantha sucking up Chaosium's attention/affection vs. other stuff that would have interested me more.

QuoteEspecially not when you could just, say, make Choose Location a crit-only SE. Which, from what I hear, seems to be a common house rule already, due to some groups having problems with players who always just take "Choose Location: Head" at every opportunity. If that really is the problem, then getting rid of SEs entirely is like swatting a fly with a howitzer.

To quote from the Choose Location SE description in both RQ6 and Mythras: '...the attacker may freely select the location where the blow lands as long as that location is normally within reach.' Plus, the rules already have certain options built-in to assist with countering those who naively believe that 'Choose Location>Head' is the only worthwhile effect to select - Passive Blocking, Ward Location, the Prepare Counter Special Effect... In fact, if you're going to rely on Choose Location as your primary MO, then you need to ensure that you can deal enough damage in one go to incapacitate your foe - and if you factor-in armour and the Endurance opposed roll, it isn't a guarantee.

The most effective SEs tend to be the ones that deny opponents a chance to retaliate or force them to spend Action Points on something other than attacking. Mythras combat isn't about Hit Point attrition at all; it's far more subtle than that.

Quote from: Simlasa;956137I read the argument, over on the BPR forums, that Mythras combat maneuvers/special effects make it too easy to circumvent the special 'Gloranthy' nature of various creatures and characters.
For example, the 'choose location' effect lets you target specific weaknesses of opponents.
The example given is that a scorpion man, using random hit locations in RQ2, is particularly scary because, since it had so many legs (each a separate hit location) you have a hard time hitting its vitals... whereas with Mythras every combatant is going to be trying to get a 'choose location' effect so as to get past those pesky legs.
The same argument describes the weakening of various Gloranthan notables that go without armor in certain locations.

Not a very convincing argument IMO.

beyond the reach and warding considerations, one has to consider that it also has an additional non-critical but damage-causing location - the tail. This takes up a couple of spots, and is an important place to target AND is hard to reach.

An additional consideration is that, if one was to use the Mythras rule, those legs are somewhat of a complication, as a leg is subject to Endurance checks on serious wounds just like any other limb, and thus Stunned with pain for 1d3 turns. Nothing quite as bad as completely not being able to act - you are pretty much done at that point. This applies to all creatures, it just so happens that the scorpion man has spindly little legs that are ripe for severing or impaling.

so, yes, not a particularly convincing argument.

Quote from: Loz;956254The most effective SEs tend to be the ones that deny opponents a chance to retaliate or force them to spend Action Points on something other than attacking. Mythras combat isn't about Hit Point attrition at all; it's far more subtle than that.

I've noticed that on my second read through. I'm really hoping it's something my players pick up on.

Quote from: Loz;956254To quote from the Choose Location SE description in both RQ6 and Mythras: '...the attacker may freely select the location where the blow lands as long as that location is normally within reach.' Plus, the rules already have certain options built-in to assist with countering those who naively believe that 'Choose Location>Head' is the only worthwhile effect to select - Passive Blocking, Ward Location, the Prepare Counter Special Effect... In fact, if you're going to rely on Choose Location as your primary MO, then you need to ensure that you can deal enough damage in one go to incapacitate your foe - and if you factor-in armour and the Endurance opposed roll, it isn't a guarantee.

The most effective SEs tend to be the ones that deny opponents a chance to retaliate or force them to spend Action Points on something other than attacking. Mythras combat isn't about Hit Point attrition at all; it's far more subtle than that.

I explained to members of my group that Mythras follows John Silver's "Paradox of Defence" rule and they got the idea;).

Quote from: Simlasa;956145The Glorantha fans were part of what put me off that setting early on.

Unfortunately, that is a common experience.

I was very lucky. Our local crew played a crapton of RuneQuest 2e and never had any issues. ZERO. Then RQ3e came out and canon pissing matches broke out at any convention where I was running RQ. It was this weird devotion to THE Glorantha vs. whatever we were doing at the table.

It's one of the reasons I switched out to running Stormbringer as my BRP fantasy game.

BTW, I just found an ancient copy of Magic World! I totally forgot it was an early Chaosium release. It's only 20 pages and a supplement to Basic Roleplaying pamphlet. Its mostly all the BRP stuff from their other games...except Spells were used as Skills!

Quote from: AsenRG;956312I explained to members of my group that Mythras follows John Silver's "Paradox of Defence" rule and they got the idea;).

I gave his writing a quick lookover but apart from his disdain of Italian fencing teachers and rapiers... and warnings against using overly lengthy weapons... I'm not sure I got the clear gist of how his methods apply to an understanding of Mythras.
Could you elaborate?

Quote from: Simlasa;956336I gave his writing a quick lookover but apart from his disdain of Italian fencing teachers and rapiers... and warnings against using overly lengthy weapons... I'm not sure I got the clear gist of how his methods apply to an understanding of Mythras.
Could you elaborate?

Yes, but the typing is going to take a while, since I'm on my phone:). Hang on now, I'm starting!

And BTW, the worst fans I'd met were Savage Worlds and D&D fans, splitting the palm of the ignominy;).

So, imagine this scene...
Ugh and Srebrin had met in a tavern. They were discussing their lots in life and what they could do to improve them.
"Ugh can teach fighting to people that are ci-vi-lizi...liji...weak!", the caveman said. "Me make them strong. They give Ugh shiny coin! What?"
Srebren was sipping disapproving.
"What means to be strong, Ugh? Can you tell me?"
"Hah! Easy, Ugh smarter he looks! Strong means you can kill anyone! Like Ugh killed funny guy in female leathers with tiny sword! Then females dig Ugh, and tell Ugh he can dig them!"
Having demonstrated his newly learned mastery of city slang and double-entendre (not to mention having inadvertently explained the circumstances surrounding the mystery death of Maestro Scipio), Ugh roared and guffawed his beer in one go. To him, the matter was fully clarified.
Yet Srebrin frowned.
"Killing ain't hard", he said. "A kid can do it with a knife. Can you kill, and remain unhurt?"
Ugh almost spat the beer out. Civil....Weak people sure we're dreaming!
"That hard", the caveman said. "Ugh just kills enemy 'fore he kills Ugh! Ugh strong!"
"And yet. It's possible.", Srebrin retorted, while making sure his head isn't in reach-the caveman could well try to test his assertion.
He didn't. Instead, Ugh stared at him, seemingly trying to determine whether it was a joke, an uniquely qualified shaman, or a funny misunderstanding.
"You hunt your enemies?", Ugh suggested helpfully. "That be good, but they hunt you, too. And when in corner, Ugh hafta FIGHT! Show Ugh strong...er".
Comparative words were still a hard concept, but Ugh was learning.
"No hunting men", Srebrin answered, though the idea was interesting. "When you have learned the proper measure, the four Wards, and have the perfect fight, with a weapon suited to your size, the enemy never gets a chance to attack and cause you undue suffering!"
Ugh's eyes opened wide. But, having known Srebrin for a while, he had never seen the smaller man speak an untruth, or make up a deed.
Thus Ugh made the only natural thing, and bowed his head before Srebrin, exposing the neck.
"Teach Ugh your magic, my friend!"
Before Srebrin could answer, voices echoed from nowhere.
"That's smells of bull! No. It smells of Ugh!", a gal with a skull-adorned t-shirt argued. "My character is the best wizard. He should be the one to teach Ugh magic!"
"I trust my bro to make it fun", Ugh's player shrugged her shoulders.
"Besides, I told them: No lessons, you join the caravan tomorrow in IC time. And his character has no magic, anyway. We'll see how AsenRG is going to work around that" the woman behind the screen answered. "Maybe it's going to be pure roleplaying until they have time for a proper lesson?"
"Kinda", the man called AsenRG answered, smirking. "I'm going to explain you the tactics OOC, and give Ugh a reason to use some Special effects. Now listen: the system is written by at least one fellow historical fencer, so John Silver applies in spades. Use Special effects that prevent the enemy from attacking! If he's not rolling to hit, even a Special effect isn't immediately hurtful. So, exchange blows until you get an advantage. Then ground him with an Overextend, or, for a not very skilled enemy, trip him to reduce his attack and defence even further, and attack. And of course, if he fumbles, Compel Surrender resolves a fight in one roll...in short, remember: defense is paramount, for you cannot win if you're dead! Still, even the best defense fails, so don't tempt the fate: control what the enemy is rolling for, or failing that,saddle him with penalties. In the perfect fight of Silver, you never open yourself".
"Silver, Silver. . . Now I know why you named your character Srebrin!", the other guy commented.
"True", AsenRG nodded. "Shall we play, now?"

Quote from: estar;955916This from Part 2 is total horseshit

Careful Estar.  Say something they don't like here, you'll find yourself unable to post on BRPCentral and your whole posting history erased.

How's that for reputable?

Maybe Durall can head over here.  I was interested in the Rune system, but from the designer's notes, all I'm getting is:
RQG Passions = Mythras Passions
RQG Runes = Mythras Passions focused on Rune Aspects
RQG Rune Points = Mythras Devotional Pool

Sounds like they just took what they wanted from Mythras and bolted it on to RQ2.

Quote from: CRKrueger;956393Maybe Durall can head over here.  I was interested in the Rune system, but from the designer's notes, all I'm getting is:
RQG Passions = Mythras Passions
RQG Runes = Mythras Passions focused on Rune Aspects
RQG Rune Points = Mythras Devotional Pool

Sounds like they just took what they wanted from Mythras and bolted it on to RQ2.

It might have a lot more to do with David Cheng's Runepower article from TotRM #12 (1994) and from how David Dunham and I incorporated KAP passions into RuneQuest with PenDragon Pass (back from 1997).

Cool, another person I could wait to answer my query about the Special effects:)!

Hi, Mr. Richards! Care to answer this for oneof your potential customers;)?

Quote from: AsenRG;956063Also, is there a reason why you avoided my question?
Why would I* want to "get rid of the Special effects"? What do I, as a GM or player, gain by reducing at once the realism and the variety of events in the game?

*I mean, I do know at least part of what Chaosium gains by it. You gain backwards-compatibility with RQ2, which, given the KS, seems to be your strongest seller, which makes strong financial sense for you. My question is why I would want to follow suit, and what would I gain to compensate for the reduced realism and variety:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;956405Cool, another person I could wait to answer my query about the Special effects:)!

Hi, Mr. Richards! Care to answer this for oneof your potential customers;)?

Hopefully you'll get an official answer but from the blogs and BRP forums I've inferred that it's to simplify combat, discourage targeted attacks (which seems to be a result of the designers misunderstanding of how choose location works) and to encourage characters to fall back in rune magic  as tie breakers.

That's my belief anyway, I'd like to see the official answer clearly stated though. Not a deal breaker for me but it does seem a bit odd to take options away.