Quote from: Dominus NoxHistorian or not, I'll stick to my guns on this issue. The luger jammed a lot due to it's complex mechanism, and did so an an unacceptable rate in battlefield conditions. (I.E. rough handling, dirt, etc.)

Now the P-38 may have been adopted as a replacement due to it's cost, but the luger was replaced due to it's habit of jamming too often.

Sticking to your guns doesn't make you right.  It's mechanism isnt all that complex, outside of the Desert Eagle most automatic pistols have a very straightforward design: the Luger included.

I haven't read anything reliable that stated the Luger jammed any more than the P38 on the battlefield.  German guns from the period tend to have that problem.

Quote from: joewolzSticking to your guns doesn't make you right.  It's mechanism isnt all that complex, outside of the Desert Eagle most automatic pistols have a very straightforward design: the Luger included.

I haven't read anything reliable that stated the Luger jammed any more than the P38 on the battlefield.  German guns from the period tend to have that problem.

Check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol

Also here under the bit about the US Army adopting the colt 1911.

http://www.tdasys.com/the_bengal_club/bisrev06.asp

This site has a box with a summary of the luger 9mm pistol.

http://www.swelt.demon.co.uk/descpro.htm

Quote from: Dominus NoxCheck this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_pistol

Also here under the bit about the US Army adopting the colt 1911.

http://www.tdasys.com/the_bengal_club/bisrev06.asp

I certainly won't argue with you on the adoption of the M1911, although I can expand upon it.  That's an awesome pistol, and should have been refined instead of being ditched for the Beretta 92FS.

I don't trust Wikipedia, but that's okay.  The Luger argument comes from a bit of bad weapons history being propagated by lazy or amateur historians.  German records are very clear on the subject: the P38 had the same, acceptable, problems as the Luger, but was about 1/2 as much to make.  This is not to put a value judgement on either weapon.  I've fired both and found them to be in excellent working condition for weapons made sixty years ago.  I haven't ever fired a gun on "battlefield conditions" however, so I can't judge personally.  

I'll dredge up some sources for you on Monday, in English if I can, to back my side up.  I'll try to make sure they're online, but I'll provide library reference numbers for you if I can't.

Quote from: joewolzI certainly won't argue with you on the adoption of the M1911, although I can expand upon it.  That's an awesome pistol, and should have been refined instead of being ditched for the Beretta 92FS.

I don't trust Wikipedia, but that's okay.  The Luger argument comes from a bit of bad weapons history being propagated by lazy or amateur historians.  German records are very clear on the subject: the P38 had the same, acceptable, problems as the Luger, but was about 1/2 as much to make.  This is not to put a value judgement on either weapon.  I've fired both and found them to be in excellent working condition for weapons made sixty years ago.  I haven't ever fired a gun on "battlefield conditions" however, so I can't judge personally.  

I'll dredge up some sources for you on Monday, in English if I can, to back my side up.  I'll try to make sure they're online, but I'll provide library reference numbers for you if I can't.

The thing is (trying to be civil here) I've seen a luger fired, and the way that exposed assembly on top racks back and forth, up and down just looks like it's be very, very vulnerable to dirt, grit and dust getting into it because it's totally exposed instead of enclosed.

Quote from: Dominus NoxThe thing is (trying to be civil here) I've seen a luger fired, and the way that exposed assembly on top racks back and forth, up and down just looks like it's be very, very vulnerable to dirt, grit and dust getting into it because it's totally exposed instead of enclosed.

It does look that way.  And it is sensitive to dirt if you drop it, or maybe if you're in a sandstorm.  But so is almost every other gun from the period.

Quote from: joewolzIt does look that way.  And it is sensitive to dirt if you drop it, or maybe if you're in a sandstorm.  But so is almost every other gun from the period.

Well, the colt .45 was developed a while after the original luger, I admit, but it had a rep for being able to fire reliably after being used to drive nails.

Really, a military weapon meant to see use "in the field" must be reliable and easy to maintain above all else. That's why the AK-47 is thw world's most produced gun.

Joe,
 I showed my Dad a printout of the first page of this thread day before yesterday   -  his only response was to suggest several new 9mm handguns and pistols that Ruger just came out with.

- E.W.C.

Rugers?  Do you have a specifics?  I'm going to my Friendly Local (to my parent's house anyway) Gun Store ina  few weeks, and I'm renting a few of the suggestions here.

Rugers are excellent reliable guns for the shooter on a budget. They call them the poor man's Glock. They're kind of bulky and not all that great for concealed carry though, which I think was something Joe was looking for.

Quote from: TechnomancerRugers are excellent relaible guns for the shooter on a budget. They call the the poor man's Glock. They're kind of bulky and not all that great for concealed carry though, which I think was something Joe was looking for.

 I'll go look at the ad /newsletter Dad showed me.  Might not be able to post until Monday about it. I'm going to be at a Sci-Fi convention all weekend.

- E.W.C.