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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Ratman_tf on August 08, 2021, 04:29:44 PM

Title: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 08, 2021, 04:29:44 PM
New series on FX, based on a comic series.



My first reaction: Jesus is this gonna be a "Kill da menz!" show?
My 2nd reaction: Hm, maybe not.
My 3rd reaction: Oh joy, now the Trans activist community are pissed.

https://twitter.com/ambertamblyn/status/1423335726733742084

Should be good for some yuks from RPG.net

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/damian-may-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-thirty-day-ban-sexism-advocating-eugenics.885246/

My 4th reaction: Shows are no longer about the shows. They're about 15 minutes of internet outrage.

Here we go again.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 04:51:03 PM
Spoiler Alert: half the women die in episode 2 because there's nobody to open jars or kill spiders.

The RPG.net link is hysterical. May the outrage begin.

Once the show starts, there will be many more bannings over there because there's literally no way for them to have any conversation about this show while appeasing all the SJW rules.

Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 08, 2021, 04:54:23 PM
Yeah, this is gonna be entertaining. Y: The Last Man wasn't a bad yarn -- the repercussions of having half the biosphere (minus one guy and his pet monkey) keel over are pretty bad.

But considering modern day social mental retardation, I expect there to be screaming galore.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 08, 2021, 05:05:58 PM
New series on FX, based on a comic series.



My first reaction: Jesus is this gonna be a "Kill da menz!" show?
My 2nd reaction: Hm, maybe not.
My 3rd reaction: Oh joy, now the Trans activist community are pissed.

https://twitter.com/ambertamblyn/status/1423335726733742084

Should be good for some yuks from RPG.net

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/damian-may-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-thirty-day-ban-sexism-advocating-eugenics.885246/

My 4th reaction: Shows are no longer about the shows. They're about 15 minutes of internet outrage.

Here we go again.
Well, since the general consensus of commentators is that the whole disease-thing in this series started from a clandestine American biological attack on China that backfired, I can see why this show pleases Hollywood's Chinese masters.  Now is a good time to deflect away from the fact that pretty much the opposite just happened in real life...
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Spinachcat on August 08, 2021, 05:59:46 PM
I'm waiting for the rest of the world to wake up to the fact that CoronaChan was a joint US-China project funded by Fauci the Clown. Because when the world wakes up, there's gonna be a demand in the UN for reparations...from the USA, as everybody knows not to piss off China.

Those Bourne Supremacy fight scenes in the trailer are hysterical.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 08, 2021, 06:10:43 PM
We have a few Cornoavirus threads in Pundit's forum already. Can we keep on topic in this thread?
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on August 08, 2021, 07:09:25 PM
I read the first... one? two? ... graphic novels. Then I tuned out because they were portraying one political party as saints (guess) and the other as idiots.

To be fair, it was a bit more nuanced than that. But not a lot more.

Also, the sister Amazon cult was terrible.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 10, 2021, 05:12:06 PM
If such a thing ever happened in real life, there will be A LOT of people in for a very rude awakening.

Not too long ago a woman, buying into feminist dogma, started her own television production company. Women-only (of course no complaints about sex discrimination), etc.

Well, anyone who knows anything about human nature (in this case women) could guess at what happened: drama, backbiting, chaos, oh and drama. Lots of drama. It all soon fell apart.

In other words, for all the hype about women in STEM blah blah civilization would fall apart so quickly in two months tops it would make "Damnation Alley" look like "The Sound of Music."
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 06:00:38 PM
Even when this was a comic I thought it was heavy handed, I can't imagine how bad it'll be reimagined in CURRENT YEAR.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Fergurg on August 10, 2021, 08:59:30 PM
Spoiler Alert: half the women die in episode 2 because there's nobody to open jars or kill spiders.

The RPG.net link is hysterical. May the outrage begin.

Once the show starts, there will be many more bannings over there because there's literally no way for them to have any conversation about this show while appeasing all the SJW rules.

They have already pre-emptively banned discussion of it. https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/teaser-trailer-for-y-the-last-man-series-on-hulu.884821/page-4#post-24001813 (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/teaser-trailer-for-y-the-last-man-series-on-hulu.884821/page-4#post-24001813)
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 10, 2021, 09:08:16 PM
Even when this was a comic I thought it was heavy handed, I can't imagine how bad it'll be reimagined in CURRENT YEAR.

Yup. The reality of even a 'gender balanced' world mortality rate of about 20% would be apocalyptic.

A gender imbalanced world mortality rate of 51% would become a 90% mortality rate within a month.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Omega on August 16, 2021, 01:06:01 AM
World Harem pulls no punches with the same idea. And the situation is even worse in that setting as the women had relegated the men to the technical tasks of running the machinery and computers and when 99.99% of the male population dies things go to complete hell with most of the landscape outside the big cities in ruins or a mess.

Also the femnazis behind the whole thing totally underestimated just how much the other 90+% of the female population wants real dick and/or to have kids - and are starting to go insane.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: jeff37923 on August 16, 2021, 01:56:21 AM
Oh, this is going to be funny to watch......

The people reacting, not the show....
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 16, 2021, 08:44:49 AM
So the SJWs hate the show because the virus kills transwomen and doesn’t care about how they identify?
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on September 15, 2021, 06:51:20 PM
Looks like the first 3 episodes dropped on Hulu this week, with a new one on Mondays.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on September 16, 2021, 03:42:49 AM
... civilization would fall apart so quickly in two months tops it would make "Damnation Alley" look like "The Sound of Music."

This is an epic-stupid take on women. You poor incel. Can you show us on the doll where the woman hurt you? Poor thing.

The show is not terrible however...

SPOILER ALERT....
.....
...
..
.

The "last man" finds his mom (the president) and he turns out to be a GIANT TWAT WAFFLE that will likely ruin the show for me... Also, the depiction of the Republican women is a terrible caricature. They could have capitalized on the response to 9/11 and modeled everyone's behavior to be a little more patriotic/helpful vs. OHMERGAHD let's divide ourselves into Blue and Red teams. Politics has officially ruined everything.

Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: oggsmash on September 16, 2021, 09:30:08 AM
... civilization would fall apart so quickly in two months tops it would make "Damnation Alley" look like "The Sound of Music."

This is an epic-stupid take on women. You poor incel. Can you show us on the doll where the woman hurt you? Poor thing.

The show is not terrible however...

SPOILER ALERT....
.....
...
..
.

The "last man" finds his mom (the president) and he turns out to be a GIANT TWAT WAFFLE that will likely ruin the show for me... Also, the depiction of the Republican women is a terrible caricature. They could have capitalized on the response to 9/11 and modeled everyone's behavior to be a little more patriotic/helpful vs. OHMERGAHD let's divide ourselves into Blue and Red teams. Politics has officially ruined everything.


  Well....there are A LOT of jobs women have zero training or experience doing, and little to no interest in doing.  Lots of those jobs are dirty, dangerous, and take some level of experience to get done in any efficient way.  The good news is with half the population gone there will be less demand for resources, but even keeping power plants running is not something that happens by magic.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on September 16, 2021, 02:44:03 PM
  Well....there are A LOT of jobs women have zero training or experience doing, and little to no interest in doing.  ...

Kind of like during WWII?

Women step up. There are more woman in these imaginary "men-centric" jobs than you likely know. Sure, after WWII in our puritanical Judeo-Christian patriarchy where misogynists like yourself made all the rules - this may have been truer. But in 2021? I'm not buying it. Is the gender ratio in certain fields skewed one way or another? Sure. But that could be shored up with training programs run by the women already in those fields.

The only thing women need to maintain society would be an significant supply of sperm. With IVF, they could take one sample and impregnate hundreds (with a little genetic hacking of course). In this scenario they need to find a vaccine for the Y Killer Virus first, then repopulate and let the next generation of people carry forward.

If the past is any indication, these women would work together to save the species (and the planet). Things wouldn't be irrevocably ruined because men exited the scene for a generation. If something this catastrophic happens I'm confident people would act differently than what is depicted in this show.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on September 16, 2021, 03:26:58 PM
  Well....there are A LOT of jobs women have zero training or experience doing, and little to no interest in doing.  ...

Kind of like during WWII?

Women step up. There are more woman in these imaginary "men-centric" jobs than you likely know. Sure, after WWII in our puritanical Judeo-Christian patriarchy where misogynists like yourself made all the rules - this may have been truer. But in 2021? I'm not buying it. Is the gender ratio in certain fields skewed one way or another? Sure. But that could be shored up with training programs run by the women already in those fields.

The only thing women need to maintain society would be an significant supply of sperm. With IVF, they could take one sample and impregnate hundreds (with a little genetic hacking of course). In this scenario they need to find a vaccine for the Y Killer Virus first, then repopulate and let the next generation of people carry forward.

If the past is any indication, these women would work together to save the species (and the planet). Things wouldn't be irrevocably ruined because men exited the scene for a generation. If something this catastrophic happens I'm confident people would act differently than what is depicted in this show.
Learn to Code, amirite? Converting half the workforce will take years, probably a generation. I had no doubt that many women will try to step up, but WW2 isn't the shining example you think it is. Repurposing production lines and adding some more laborers can happen quickly, but losing much of your upper management and highly skilled workers in very specialized industries (like nuclear power) is something else entirely. Major collapse is nearly inevitable in that situation. Not to mention morale. In WW2, the people were rah-rah patriotic and fired up. In Y, the new president is hiding in a bunker, and and made one of the most dispiriting speeches I've seen on television. (Seriously, that speech was terrible.)
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: oggsmash on September 16, 2021, 05:23:43 PM
  Well....there are A LOT of jobs women have zero training or experience doing, and little to no interest in doing.  ...

Kind of like during WWII?

Women step up. There are more woman in these imaginary "men-centric" jobs than you likely know. Sure, after WWII in our puritanical Judeo-Christian patriarchy where misogynists like yourself made all the rules - this may have been truer. But in 2021? I'm not buying it. Is the gender ratio in certain fields skewed one way or another? Sure. But that could be shored up with training programs run by the women already in those fields.

  Opening up with name calling is pretty shit behavior,  I suppose I may have expected more.

The only thing women need to maintain society would be an significant supply of sperm. With IVF, they could take one sample and impregnate hundreds (with a little genetic hacking of course). In this scenario they need to find a vaccine for the Y Killer Virus first, then repopulate and let the next generation of people carry forward.

If the past is any indication, these women would work together to save the species (and the planet). Things wouldn't be irrevocably ruined because men exited the scene for a generation. If something this catastrophic happens I'm confident people would act differently than what is depicted in this show.

  You are calling me a misogynist because I am just telling you the truth?   I didnt say they couldnt eventually fix the gap, but you are out of your mind if you dont think there is going to be degradation to infrastructure big time in the short (5-10 years) term.   In WW2 there were still A LOT of men still in the workforce, and it is great that housewives signed on to make bombs in a factory line, but that is not the same as operating a nuclear power plant or fixing lines and lines of code, or being out in the sun all day farming or digging a ditch.

  I also feel I have overestimated your ability to discuss something with a critical thought process if your argument involves calling people names.  Or maybe I just overestimated your basic manners?
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on September 16, 2021, 09:42:19 PM

  You are calling me a misogynist because I am just telling you the truth? ...

  I also feel I have overestimated your ability to discuss something with a critical thought process if your argument involves calling people names.  Or maybe I just overestimated your basic manners?

I called you a misogynist because of the statement I quoted. Sure, there is going to be a work-shortage because there are less women in these fields (anyone can just look up the average % of women in any industry...). The interest part of your statement reeks of male privilege. They don't take on these jobs because they don't want them, they are often discouraged by the boys club that controls them. Chat with one of these women working in the boys club and ask them what obstacles they had to overcome to join.

If you wanted this to be a critical thought process with basic manners perhaps you would have framed your point with better (aka less sexist) language?
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: oggsmash on September 16, 2021, 10:14:29 PM

  You are calling me a misogynist because I am just telling you the truth? ...

  I also feel I have overestimated your ability to discuss something with a critical thought process if your argument involves calling people names.  Or maybe I just overestimated your basic manners?

I called you a misogynist because of the statement I quoted. Sure, there is going to be a work-shortage because there are less women in these fields (anyone can just look up the average % of women in any industry...). The interest part of your statement reeks of male privilege. They don't take on these jobs because they don't want them, they are often discouraged by the boys club that controls them. Chat with one of these women working in the boys club and ask them what obstacles they had to overcome to join.

If you wanted this to be a critical thought process with basic manners perhaps you would have framed your point with better (aka less sexist) language?

  Your dumbass has obviously never spent ANY Time on a construction site, and maybe not too much around women, if you think their lack of enthusiasm to be on that site has to do with obstacles placed there by the boys club.  Lots of the jobs I mention, fucking suck.  Had your soft ass ever done any actual work growing up, or at any point in your life, you would understand that maybe. 
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on September 17, 2021, 12:53:22 AM
... Had your soft ass ever done any actual work growing up, or at any point in your life, you would understand that maybe.

I see. You're the MANLY man here and I'm just soft.  :-*  :o

Your anecdotal evidence of your construction experience doesn't prove that women are not enthusiastic about working in various industry boys' clubs. Whether a job sucks in your opinion, is not evidence that women also think it sucks. Your previous statement was boldly offered "as the truth" but you have no truth here. Just your HEAVILY BIASED OPINION that blah blah blah women don't want to work my job blah blah blah. Great.

Doubling down with "I'm a manly man who sweats all day and there's no way a woman wants to do this" is like the hallmark excerpt in the misogyny 101 handbook. I could imagine it being splayed across the eye-catching poster on the back cover...

Civilization is not being held up by a penis anymore than it is being squashed by a vagina.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Eirikrautha on September 17, 2021, 06:44:34 AM
... Had your soft ass ever done any actual work growing up, or at any point in your life, you would understand that maybe.

I see. You're the MANLY man here and I'm just soft.  :-*  :o

Your anecdotal evidence of your construction experience doesn't prove that women are not enthusiastic about working in various industry boys' clubs. Whether a job sucks in your opinion, is not evidence that women also think it sucks. Your previous statement was boldly offered "as the truth" but you have no truth here. Just your HEAVILY BIASED OPINION that blah blah blah women don't want to work my job blah blah blah. Great.

Doubling down with "I'm a manly man who sweats all day and there's no way a woman wants to do this" is like the hallmark excerpt in the misogyny 101 handbook. I could imagine it being splayed across the eye-catching poster on the back cover...

Civilization is not being held up by a penis anymore than it is being squashed by a vagina.

I don't see any evidence presented by you for your highly biased view, either.  Here's something to chew on: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719?journalCode=pssa

Despite the best efforts of opponents to tear it down, this study still holds up (they even changed their methodology to that proposed by their critics, and got the same result).  I look forward to your evidence.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on September 18, 2021, 05:14:09 PM
... I look forward to your evidence.

LOL. Based on your example, I should share some random internet website study that helps make YOUR point?

Yes. There are considerably less women in STEM than men. That's doesn't mean there are NO women in STEM. Also, oggmash was suggesting that since his manly manliness was in construction and there's no women on his crew, that there are MUST be no women in construction. If I use the same quality of evidence as you two, I might was well not waste my time.

I get that the misogynists in the room believe the world revolves around men. Duh. I'm still not CONVINCED you're remotely correct.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 18, 2021, 06:28:22 PM
This is an epic-stupid take on women. You poor incel. Can you show us on the doll where the woman hurt you? Poor thing.
WWII only had a small percentage of society-uncritical men signing up for short tours of duty.

Ignoring gender, If 50% of all power plant workers died tomorrow (and just power plant workers) we would have a catastrophy that would kill hundreds of millions if not billions.
Man or woman, a sudden labour shortage drop would have cascading ramifications in our society.
The time and effort required to train a crew to replace those people (while the power is out and all the hospitals are overloaded), just losses in the millions would be considered miraculous. And thats just the power.

Thats assuming that men and women have an equal workload. Which they don't. And this is just the power.

Now apply it to every aspect of life (Food delivery, sanitation, plumbing, construction and road work). Even assuming a 50% gender balance in each of those fields the results would be apocalyptic. Society wouldn't be 'like before but with the women in charge'.
It would be maybe tens of thousands of women (survivors) hudling around campires in ruined cities.

Your so busy calling people names and kissing metaphorical woman ass (as if they where somekind of superhuman, and not normal people), your ignoring basic psychology and system engineering.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Eirikrautha on September 18, 2021, 11:25:43 PM
... I look forward to your evidence.

LOL. Based on your example, I should share some random internet website study that helps make YOUR point?

Yes. There are considerably less women in STEM than men. That's doesn't mean there are NO women in STEM. Also, oggmash was suggesting that since his manly manliness was in construction and there's no women on his crew, that there are MUST be no women in construction. If I use the same quality of evidence as you two, I might was well not waste my time.

I get that the misogynists in the room believe the world revolves around men. Duh. I'm still not CONVINCED you're remotely correct.
You're trolling, right?  Because nobody can be as stupid as you appear to be.  The assertion (of yours) was that the other poster's anecdote didn't provide any evidence that women didn't want to work in his field.  So I provided a published, peer-reviewed study that found exactly that.  What evidence would you consider sufficient to refute your point?  Because, if that answer is "none," then you aren't presenting a cogent point; you are asserting a religious belief.  And female Jesus isn't gonna suck your incel dick, no matter how much you believe stuff contrary to reality.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on September 19, 2021, 01:02:45 AM
... I look forward to your evidence.

LOL. Based on your example, I should share some random internet website study that helps make YOUR point?

Yes. There are considerably less women in STEM than men. That's doesn't mean there are NO women in STEM. Also, oggmash was suggesting that since his manly manliness was in construction and there's no women on his crew, that there are MUST be no women in construction. If I use the same quality of evidence as you two, I might was well not waste my time.

I get that the misogynists in the room believe the world revolves around men. Duh. I'm still not CONVINCED you're remotely correct.


I really wish you'd stop using the word misogynist like a punctuation mark. You may not like the scientifically documented fact that we are a sexually dimorphic species, but that doesn't change science. Men have 2000% more testosterone than women. We are on average 40% stronger. I'd provide links to document both, but you've made it clear that to you evidence is "some random internet study", so I'm not sure the point. The World Weightlifting Foundation is my source.

The nordic countries have the greatest economic mobility and flexibility of any in the world. The vast, vast majority of teachers and nurses are women. The vast, vast majority of sanitation and construction workers are men. That's politically inconvenient, but many of us have worked in construction, or sanitation.

You know how many women I saw in facilities across a 30 year career? Zero. Not one. Ever. Are you telling me the janitor's club, those evil men, are gatekeeping women? No.

It's a dirty disgusting profession with low social status, and it has to do with systems and things. In general, men have more of an affinity for systems and things. Woman have more of an affinity for people. I mean across billions of us. That doesn't mean that my wife can't take me to school about programming despite both of us being senior software engineers. She's better than I am, and I can admit it with no ego.

But she's also one of only three women she met at her company in the 12 years she worked in software. Everyone was thrilled to have her. No one threw up barriers. No one gate kept her out. The simple fact is...not that many women are interested in STEM. It grew for a while in the late 80s, and into the 90s, but leveled out by 2000.

I understand that since I'm using words, and am disagreeing with you, that your marxist training will tell you I must be insulted. Your next play is ad hominem attack, I believe.

I'll leave you with this. With rare exceptions a woman can do almost anything a man can do. With rare exceptions a man can do almost everything a woman can do. There are great male pre-school teachers, and amazing female surgeons. But in general men and women make different life choices. This is a fact, mirrored globally, everywhere they have the freedom to make their own choices.

If every man died tomorrow we'd be screwed for many of the reasons listed here.

If every woman died tomorrow we'd be screwed for a very different set of reasons. In addition to being capable of filling all the jobs a man can fill, they are also the nurturers and primary care givers in our society. See: nature. Check out every other primate. Our genders are specialized for a reason.

Recognizing that doesn't make anyone a misogynist, nor does it mean we're saying a woman can't do anything she wants to. You'll still lob the big M word my way I'm sure, though.

To everyone else reading...I am so glad for this forum's existence. Anywhere else and I would be banned for this post.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 19, 2021, 04:45:40 AM
Anyone actually watching the show, or are you all too busy hate-fucking each other?

I'm on the fence on whether I want to invest the time. Maybe after I finish my Babylon 5 rewatch and have nothing else to do.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 19, 2021, 05:36:50 PM
If both sides of the political spectrum hate it, then it might be worth watching.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 19, 2021, 05:43:55 PM
If both sides of the political spectrum hate it, then it might be worth watching.

Or it might just suck. Manos the Hand of Fate isn't even worth a comedy watch (its just so boring) and everybody hates it.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2021, 09:58:12 AM
If both sides of the political spectrum hate it, then it might be worth watching.

Or it might just suck. Manos the Hand of Fate isn't even worth a comedy watch (its just so boring) and everybody hates it.
Okay
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on September 21, 2021, 03:43:58 PM
Anyone actually watching the show, ...

I am! I'm going to stick with it a few more episodes to see where it goes. I just ALSO make time for hate-fucking.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Banjo Destructo on October 07, 2021, 03:35:46 PM
I dunno, I tend not to be interested in any new shows in general these days, and I don't find the subject of this show to be very compelling.  Is this worth signing up for Hulu? 
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: trechriron on October 07, 2021, 05:42:09 PM
I dunno, I tend not to be interested in any new shows in general these days, and I don't find the subject of this show to be very compelling.  Is this worth signing up for Hulu?

Probably not. I have several other shows like Only Murders In The Building, The Orville, The Handmaid's Tale, Ancient Aliens (I love this shit), etc. If you have Disney+ I believe you can get a discount, so it might be worth it. There are TONS of cool shows on there, but to get your money's worth, you would want to get excited about a couple things.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 07, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
Wait for Black Friday. For the past couple years, Hulu's run a deal where you can subscribe for $2/month for up to a year. So there's a good chance you'll be able to check it out for pocket change.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Wntrlnd on October 18, 2021, 04:46:35 AM
Aaand it's cancelled. Before the end of the first season.
https://deadline.com/2021/10/y-the-last-man-cancelled-fx-1234857400/
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 18, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Aaand it's cancelled. Before the end of the first season.
https://deadline.com/2021/10/y-the-last-man-cancelled-fx-1234857400/
That was quick.

Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on October 18, 2021, 09:28:02 AM
Huh, that's odd. It seemed like it would be really successful. All they did was exclude roughly half the population, because they killed them in the pilot, and the exclude most of the other half of the population, because they killed their love interests, and children.

Weird that it got cancelled so quickly.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 11:23:19 AM
Huh, that's odd. It seemed like it would be really successful. All they did was exclude roughly half the population, because they killed them in the pilot, and the exclude most of the other half of the population, because they killed their love interests, and children.

Weird that it got cancelled so quickly.
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

The graphic novel was pretty successful, but it was always going to be a perilous adaptation in today's political climate. It didn't manage to thread the needle.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: rgalex on October 18, 2021, 12:03:48 PM
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

The graphic novel was pretty successful, but it was always going to be a perilous adaptation in today's political climate. It didn't manage to thread the needle.

Years of Identity Politics invading every facet of my personal life has drilled into me that, YES, that is exactly how I am suppose to be viewing everything now.

I read the comic years ago.  I liked it.  I agree, there was no way it was going to be able to make it in today's climate.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 12:18:38 PM
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

Years of Identity Politics invading every facet of my personal life has drilled into me that, YES, that is exactly how I am suppose to be viewing everything now.
By that standard, the audience for an adaptation of LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness would be effectively zero. Identity politics and representation has successfully erased probably the single most influential feminist work in science fiction, because there are zero women and only one man to identify with.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on October 18, 2021, 03:31:02 PM
Huh, that's odd. It seemed like it would be really successful. All they did was exclude roughly half the population, because they killed them in the pilot, and the exclude most of the other half of the population, because they killed their love interests, and children.

Weird that it got cancelled so quickly.
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

The graphic novel was pretty successful, but it was always going to be a perilous adaptation in today's political climate. It didn't manage to thread the needle.

I'm using a marketing definition in this case. The core tenet of writing to market is understanding who your audience is. Doesn't matter if it's a novel, TV show, or roleplaying game. This is true in all cases.

These audiences have preferences. Everyone likes to experience content as someone like themselves. This is why ensemble cast movies such as Independence Day did so well, because everyone had someone to identify with. Someone who IS like them, not someone who LOOKS like them. Pasty white Chris wanted to be Will Smith. So did almost every boy my age.

You can give any fantasy fan a copy of the Eye of the World, and the vast majority of us can empathize with Rand immediately. It doesn't matter what his skin color is. It doesn't matter that he's a man. He's a farmer, doing some chores, living with his dad, and worried about the man in black.

Y killed off all the men. As much as we try to avoid it we are a sexually dimorphic species. Most men, and most women, want very different things. The vast, vast majority of romance readers are women. The vast, vast majority of military science fiction readers are men. These patterns are not only inescapable, but they're easy to see if you've run as much money through facebook ads as I have. I can see it all.

If you identify as a:

- Man
- Woman who wants to marry a man
- Mother of a boy

Then you are going to have a visceral reaction to seeing all the people like you, or like someone you love, die. A certain number of people will find such a story fascinating, but it is a graphic novel sized market, not a network television sized market.

People consume stories to see characters grow. We benefit from the completion of character arcs. This show removed most of the possible arcs, and the remaining arcs are only relevant to a small portion of the audience.

Smart shows seek ways to include, not exclude. Am I saying that I can't appreciate a story from any perspective? No. I grew up reading Nancy Drew and Babysitter's Club in addition to Lord of the Rings. But most people aren't that way. Most people want a PoV like them, and if they don't have it, they can easily go find it elsewhere.

You can't both tell us that diversity is important, but then tell us it's not.

Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 04:17:02 PM
You can give any fantasy fan a copy of the Eye of the World, and the vast majority of us can empathize with Rand immediately. It doesn't matter what his skin color is. It doesn't matter that he's a man. He's a farmer, doing some chores, living with his dad, and worried about the man in black.

Y killed off all the men. As much as we try to avoid it we are a sexually dimorphic species. Most men, and most women, want very different things. The vast, vast majority of romance readers are women. The vast, vast majority of military science fiction readers are men. These patterns are not only inescapable, but they're easy to see if you've run as much money through facebook ads as I have. I can see it all.
You're contradicting yourself. You can't say it doesn't matter if he's a man, and then in the next paragraph say it matters. Also, you just denied the possibility that Y could be successful as a graphic novel. Which it was.

There is some truth to marketing to stereotypes, but it's also limiting. Marketing is based on established patterns, not on new or breakout publications, or those that subvert expectations. Y definitely falls in one of the latter categories, and it seems to have worked or they wouldn't have published a total of 10 graphic novels. Y has a male protagonist, in a world of women, and is exploring what changes and what is maintained when one of the sexes vanishes. There's a universal component to that, and thus the potential for wide appeal, even if it's fundamentally not trying to follow the easy, established formula. It's more like weird little indie graphic novels, or conceptual science fiction, than most chapterbooks, thinly-veiled historical war drama set in space, or popular television series or movies. It's probably closer to Left Hand of Darkness than the Wheel of Time or the Vorksogian sagas.

I don't know what their expectations were in terms of audience size, but we've had some weird corner niche stuff that's been modestly successful on screen. Annihilation and The Man in the High Castle come to mind. Y could have been similar, but the problem is it's not good, at least based on the 2 episodes I watched. While I'm critical of the graphic novels, the TV series seems considerably worse. If contrariwise, it had improved on the graphic novel, I think it could have been a minor hit.

You can't both tell us that diversity is important, but then tell us it's not.
You just did.

And I do it all the time. It works because words can have different meanings in different contexts. The prevailing use of "diversity" is a tokenist form of racism and sexism, and is often countered by diversity of opinion, which is another narrow, but less bigoted, use. In less charged contexts, the term can be used more broadly. But it's important to signal when you're using the word in an unexpected manner, and it's essential to do so when you're switching definitions in a single work.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on October 18, 2021, 04:52:49 PM
I'm not contradicting myself. You just need more context from the snippet you quoted. I said that people crave stories about people like them, and that Rand is identifiable. However, were it just his story then you'd lose a ton of female readers. It isn't. By the midpoint in the book we've had both Egwene and Nyneave's perspectives. This grounds female readers.

Your marketing knowledge sounds theoretical. Mine is practical. I've proven I can earn my bread with my written word. I'm not just guessing about this stuff, and being right about it is why I make a great six-figure living, and Y just got cancelled midway through its first season.

Nor did I deny Y's success as a comic. I specifically mentioned that it was a graphic market sized market, not a network TV sized market. It's clear you're not even reading my entire posts.

But note what that graphic audience is saying about the show. That success availed them nothing, because they pissed off the show's original fan base.

When I talk about diversity I'm talking primarily about diversity of role within a story. If you had a bunch of spartans like in 300, but some were BIPOC, and some were women, and some were super gay dudes, and some were transitioning...they would still all be filling EXACTLY the same character archtetype.

What Rand wants in the Wheel of Time is different from what Moraine wants which is different from what the forsaken want. That kind of diverse cast of PoVs drew a lot of people to the series. Not because they were specific races, or genders. But because they had lots of interesting perspectives.

Diversity as its used in hollywood is just a club. A quota. And it is and will keep strangling productions like this.

Get woke. Go broke.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 06:48:47 PM
Except the lead character in Y is male, which you're ignoring with your claim that people need a character to identify with that matches their immutable characteristics but don't need a character with immutable characteristics to identify with, and thus can't identify with the characters of Y because all the men are dead.

I largely agree that the characteristics you're discussing can help make a movie more easily accessible to the masses. The point I'm making is not all success is based on following existing patterns. There are very successful and highly formulaic franchises that follow that advice, like the Marvel movies. But there are also stories that are not formulaic that manage to achieve success, which is what Amazon and Netflix have been aiming at with their highly experimental and creator-led productions. They've had a number of breakout successes that are at least as untraditional as Y. Whatever side of the people need to look like me/people don't need to look at me fence you're trying to Schrodinger, there are stories that manage to get people to identify with people or even not people who are very unlike them. That's why I'm emphasizing it's the quality or lack thereof that sunk Y, not some fixed sized market.

I have some experience with marketing, just not in movies. Similarly for all your experience in writing, you're not a movie or TV show producer, and it sounds like you're aiming for the mass market rather than what I'm addressing.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on October 18, 2021, 09:40:45 PM
No, I'm not ignoring that the lead is male. Once again you're missing context. Having "a man" isn't enough to get people to identify.

When marketing, in all forms, you are relying on symbolic recognition. I have flown all over the world teaching this stuff, and literally wrote Write to Market. Google the phrase and see what comes up.

It doesn't matter if you are selling apps, books, RPGs, TV Shows, or drugs. Reaching an audience requires that they understand the value proposition, and that it apply to them.

If I have romance in my books, and my target audience doesn't like romance, then all they need to see is the bare-chested hunk on my cover and they're not going to give it a further look. I have provided them a symbol that says romance. If on the other hand I use a dragon, or a crown, or a throne, or a sword, then I am much more likely to attract my target audience.

This show's title makes it clear that all but one man is dead. The marketing made it clear that it's for a woke crowd. If you are a cis-woman, or a man, then it holds very little appeal for most people. You can contest that, and I expect you will, but can you explain to me why you think it was cancelled?

Free Guy crushed it. Why? Because they knew their audience, and wrote something they knew we would love.

Y excluded a huge segment of its audience, and if you could beyond your pride and gather some empirical data you'd be forced to agree. Go anywhere from reviews to YouTube comments and hear what people have to say. Straight women have no hot men to look at. Men have no one to root for, just a world of people who the show runners have made explicitly to hate on them.

I think people you vastly underestimate the intelligence of the average consumer. It may have taken us a bit, but most SF geeks have gotten wise to the fact that the wokesters are in charge and shoveling out garbage without any understanding of their audience. Quite the opposite. Their stated goal is to exclude parts of the audience, not to go as wide as possible.

I know a lot more about television than you think. I've had people try to option my properties, and am currently helping a good friend get his production company off the ground precisely because many of us know we can do it better than Hollywood. Just like we first with ebooks, then audiobooks. Yes, we know executives at Netflix.

You can't dictate to people what they like. You have to understand the emotional resonance they are seeking, and then provide it. The arrogance of the show runners is hilarious, because this can and should have been predicted prior to the show going live.

You can try to move goalposts, but television IS trying to aim for a mass market. That's the goal of every show. That you don't know that shows me how little understanding you have of television. They'll shoehorn in entirely separate genres just to broaden appeal into a new demographic.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 10:49:34 PM
Yes, you were ignoring the male lead. And then you keep changing the goalposts from your initial contradictory post where you were simultaneously arguing for tokenism and not for tokenism, to this new one where you've completely changed your argument and said a lot of things I can actually agree with. But this is two posts in a row where you've acted like a patronizing asshole, so you can fuck the hell off.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on October 18, 2021, 10:56:35 PM
You're not wrong about me being a patronizing asshole, but go back and look at your very first post. Does it say anything about the male lead? No it calls me out and says:

Quote
Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

And then I explained why most people are, in fact, exactly this way, based on real market research. I am shifting no goalposts. I stand by my original sarcastic post. This show got cancelled because the show runners have no clue who their audience is, and don't care in the slightest. Their take what we give you approach put them all out of a job. We work for the audience, not the other way around.

I'll dial back the patronizing attitude. I was probably reading too much into your rebuttals, and I apologize for that.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 18, 2021, 11:22:54 PM
You're not wrong about me being a patronizing asshole, but go back and look at your very first post. Does it say anything about the male lead? No it calls me out and says:

Quote
Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

And then I explained why most people are, in fact, exactly this way, based on real market research. I am shifting no goalposts. I stand by my original sarcastic post. This show got cancelled because the show runners have no clue who their audience is, and don't care in the slightest. Their take what we give you approach put them all out of a job. We work for the audience, not the other way around.

I'll dial back the patronizing attitude. I was probably reading too much into your rebuttals, and I apologize for that.
I appreciate that. This board can get tiresome with the combination of sycophancy and random escalation, so it's nice to see someone willing to dial it down a bit.

The male lead ran counter to your initial assertion, and it's part of the basic premise. It created an apparent contradiction, before I said anything.

I do think you're taking too narrow a view of marketing. You seem to have the marketing careerist view. Which is generally the most effective approach, from an ongoing ROI standpoint. And that's important for people in your position, who are trying to make a career of it, because you need stable cash flow with an opportunity for growth. But I've had a fair amount of experience working with startups that are trying to break the mold. Most fail, but the ones that succeed change the baseline expectations. Both Netflix and Amazon seem to be following that pattern (from what I've read, they almost sounded like they were playing in-house venture capitalists), and fairly successfully. Look at how they've dominated the awards shows. This isn't necessarily the same as audience size; it's pretty clear both are awash in money and trying to build their reputation, rather than struggling for every penny. But they've also had some genuine hits. That's why I think Y could have succeeded, if it was done well enough.

I think the essential problem isn't the lack of checked boxes, but the lack of anything that would appeal. I'm going to refer to that speech the new president gave again -- it was dismal, dispiriting, and disjointed. That's a more fundamental problem than a lack of Chris Hemsworth's abs.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: ChrisFox on October 18, 2021, 11:38:57 PM
I think we agree on quite a lot.

Have you read a book called Writing the Breakout Novel? If not it's an amazing eye opener, and it really showed me what I was doing wrong. I attempted to follow its advice on my first book, and the content of the book was pretty solid in that regard.

The marketing failed. The title of the book was funny, which doesn't fit the tone of a serious archeological thriller. It looked more like a horror novel. That taught me to respect marketing much more than I had. We live in a data-driven world, and our job is to reach the market who will love our product. If we can do that with say 500 people, then Facebook, Google, and Amazon can all do the rest and start finding more without us having to do anything.

If your basic premise is amazing, like say Stranger Things, then it spreads. It goes viral. Each person tells another person or two, and before you know it everyone in your circle has seen it. I've gotten to watch this occur in the author world many times. I've seen several people hit the #1 spot on all of Amazon, which requires thousands of sales a day, and / or hundreds of thousands of pages read.

Anyway, the reason why I think this failed is that it only took one market into account, and that market isn't really interested in watching a show like that. Twitter hated it, because it wasn't woke enough. The graphic novel fandom hated it because they changed the source to reflect modern sensibilities, and it broke their suspension of disbelief.

When attempting to write a breakout thriller the goal (as I learned it) is to make as many audiences happy as possible.

You brought up award shows...I could go on and on about those. They've lost all respect from the community, because it's clear that they're a popularity contest. Everything from the Oscars to the Emmy's had their worst years ever, and next year will be worse. Because it's no longer about the what the audience wants. It's about self-aggrandizing. We're tired of being lectured.

For Y-- a man being in the plot doesn't satisfy the wider audience any more than saying a man would satisfy the audience of Lost when they are expecting Jack or Sawyer and get Hurley. Not just any man will do.

If the archetype is seeking an archetype like from my 300 example, then they'd rather have a big, butch woman filling that role, than a skinny, sniveling, weak pathetic cowardly man.

Abs are a problem to the romance crowd. Lack of scientific authenticity (or pseudoscience) is a problem for the graphic novel crowd. Obviously left politics are a problem for the conservative crowd. You add all those together, and who is watching your show?

Contrast this to the Walking Dead. I feel like they really missed here, and were quite clear about trying to miss by not wanting certain demographics. I absolutely agree that this same show, and concept, could have been successful.

If your last man is Jason Momoa, or Denzel Washington, or Peter Dinklage now we're talking. Now we have a hook. From reviews that doesn't seem to be what we got.

Anyway, apologies again for being patronizing. I felt like I was getting that from you and I was wrong.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Pat on October 19, 2021, 12:15:09 AM
Now I'm picturing a really short Aquaman...

No, I haven't read that. I've read King's On Writing and a handful of others, but it's been a while. Regarding your failed book, I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm an inveterate patron of used book stores, and can scan a shelf of book spines and immediately know their genre, and focus in on the ones that interest me. There are a lot of visual cues, from fonts and size to art and colors. It's a form of signaling.

To touch on the lead man in Y, I think it's more he just isn't there. He's sort of soft, and maybe hippyish... I don't have a strong sense of who he is, and he isn't buoyed up by any charisma. I'm going to throw back to another show I mentioned a few posts back: The Man in the High Castle. There's Julia, who is pretty and little stubborn, but takes a while to develop into a character. Her boyfriend is a nebbish, who bad things happen to. Joe's a little better, because he's got the boy next door look, but we know he has a dark secret. But the real seller of that series wasn't any of them, it was the villain. The Nazi Obergruppenfuhrer. More than anyone else, Sewell probably probably carried the show. With his intensity and the almost palpable malice he could exude with those bony cheekbones, while still managing to come across as human.

That's one difference between written and visual media; there needs to be a compelling character, and what makes the character compelling is a complex of visual and verbal cues. Sometimes the character can be scenery, like with Annihilation (to circle back again), though that's hard to sustain. But usually, it's a person. It doesn't need to be a sex symbol, though that helps. Or a hero, though that's the default expectation. But it does need to be someone we want to know more about. I think that's more important than politics or abs.

And I suppose bringing up award shows in the vicinity of a sf writer was a bad idea. I think your set have become uniquely bad, though Ricky Gervais' take on the Golden Globes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR6UeVptzRg) might be the best thing that came out of 2020 unless you happen to be a huge fan of totalitarianism.

Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: SHARK on October 20, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
Greetings!

Hey there! I haven't seen this particular show being discussed, as I don't watch much television at all. However, it did occur to me in reviewing your discussion--particularly Chris Fox and Pat--that, your misunderstandings aside, the show has failed because you are both correct at the same time. I could easily see the show failing because it doesn't appeal to a broader audience--as Chris Fox commented--while also failing because it is a shit program, with shit writing, directing, and soon, which is what I inferred from Pat's critique of the show being poorly produced in general.

I also wanted to commend you both--PAT AND CHRIS FOX. Your conversation has been excellent, and enjoyable. I am glad the two of you recognized your misunderstandings, and have reconciled.

The side-running commentary on marketing concepts--based both on theory and practical experience--has been illuminating, informative, and thoroughly enjoyable. The analysis of award shows, and the other aspects of your conversation--related to physiology, sex appeal, all that good stuff, is fucking awesome.

Award shows...*Laughing* Yeah, they have become fucking woke and they're going down the fucking drain. GOOD! Go woke, go broke, indeed! God these people are fucking morons. I know, I know. It all isn't accidental. All of this bullshit, all of the failure and raging against the culture, and efforts to create a new kind of Marxist culture, right in our midst before our eyes as we speak--is all *INTENTIONAL*. Yeah, let your minds marinate on that truth.

Recognizing that truth is part of what gets me enraged, and so ferocious against these woke, Marxist fucktards. Arrgghh. I know there isn't much I can do about it, as the culture struggles in the culture war daily, as we speak. I often have to take a deep breath, light up my fine pipe, make some good coffee, and just unplug and focus on other things. So frustrating, but we have to also live the best life we can, my friends. I find enjoyment whenever I can.

Keep up the good fight, gentlemen. And also, be kind to each other. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Wrath of God on October 23, 2021, 07:58:02 PM
I think "Y - The Last Man" is quite decent idea, and I don't really get representation arguments from Chris. I think dystopia and post-apo are meant to be catastrophic, and killing off wide swaths of mankind and biological life is proper way to go. This is option within genre. So I guess reason was either pushing woke above all, or overall screenwriting failure, or both.
I guess they tried to umph some feminist agends, and threads of some cherry picked women from vast array of female characters above, forgetting it's ultimately one man's road story in fallen world. For what I see they decided to demonize further for instance quite dark character of Yorrick's sister, that join some radfem death cult in books, here making her utterly terrible person even before Y-event, because God forbide anyone who will or would become radfem ergo TERF and SWERF would be in anyway sympathetic.

So there's that.
Title: Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
Post by: Svenhelgrim on November 17, 2021, 04:14:45 PM
Anyone actually watching the show, or are you all too busy hate-fucking each other?

I'm on the fence on whether I want to invest the time. Maybe after I finish my Babylon 5 rewatch and have nothing else to do.
I refuse to watch any TV series that isn’t finished.  I got burned too many times with great shows that went south in their 3rd season, or outright got cancelled. 

I do however own the graphic novels and I loved them.  So if the TV series follows the comics, it should be a good show…until they write in some lame-ass shit for politically correct reason, or just outright cancel the show.