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Author Topic: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!  (Read 3127 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2021, 05:43:55 PM »
If both sides of the political spectrum hate it, then it might be worth watching.

Or it might just suck. Manos the Hand of Fate isn't even worth a comedy watch (its just so boring) and everybody hates it.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2021, 09:58:12 AM »
If both sides of the political spectrum hate it, then it might be worth watching.

Or it might just suck. Manos the Hand of Fate isn't even worth a comedy watch (its just so boring) and everybody hates it.
Okay

trechriron

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2021, 03:43:58 PM »
Anyone actually watching the show, ...

I am! I'm going to stick with it a few more episodes to see where it goes. I just ALSO make time for hate-fucking.
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
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Banjo Destructo

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2021, 03:35:46 PM »
I dunno, I tend not to be interested in any new shows in general these days, and I don't find the subject of this show to be very compelling.  Is this worth signing up for Hulu? 

trechriron

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2021, 05:42:09 PM »
I dunno, I tend not to be interested in any new shows in general these days, and I don't find the subject of this show to be very compelling.  Is this worth signing up for Hulu?

Probably not. I have several other shows like Only Murders In The Building, The Orville, The Handmaid's Tale, Ancient Aliens (I love this shit), etc. If you have Disney+ I believe you can get a discount, so it might be worth it. There are TONS of cool shows on there, but to get your money's worth, you would want to get excited about a couple things.
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
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Pat

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2021, 10:12:03 PM »
Wait for Black Friday. For the past couple years, Hulu's run a deal where you can subscribe for $2/month for up to a year. So there's a good chance you'll be able to check it out for pocket change.

Wntrlnd

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2021, 04:46:35 AM »
Aaand it's cancelled. Before the end of the first season.
https://deadline.com/2021/10/y-the-last-man-cancelled-fx-1234857400/
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 04:50:25 AM by Wntrlnd »

Ghostmaker

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2021, 08:06:47 AM »

ChrisFox

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2021, 09:28:02 AM »
Huh, that's odd. It seemed like it would be really successful. All they did was exclude roughly half the population, because they killed them in the pilot, and the exclude most of the other half of the population, because they killed their love interests, and children.

Weird that it got cancelled so quickly.

Pat

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2021, 11:23:19 AM »
Huh, that's odd. It seemed like it would be really successful. All they did was exclude roughly half the population, because they killed them in the pilot, and the exclude most of the other half of the population, because they killed their love interests, and children.

Weird that it got cancelled so quickly.
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

The graphic novel was pretty successful, but it was always going to be a perilous adaptation in today's political climate. It didn't manage to thread the needle.

rgalex

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2021, 12:03:48 PM »
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

The graphic novel was pretty successful, but it was always going to be a perilous adaptation in today's political climate. It didn't manage to thread the needle.

Years of Identity Politics invading every facet of my personal life has drilled into me that, YES, that is exactly how I am suppose to be viewing everything now.

I read the comic years ago.  I liked it.  I agree, there was no way it was going to be able to make it in today's climate.

Pat

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2021, 12:18:38 PM »
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

Years of Identity Politics invading every facet of my personal life has drilled into me that, YES, that is exactly how I am suppose to be viewing everything now.
By that standard, the audience for an adaptation of LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness would be effectively zero. Identity politics and representation has successfully erased probably the single most influential feminist work in science fiction, because there are zero women and only one man to identify with.

ChrisFox

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2021, 03:31:02 PM »
Huh, that's odd. It seemed like it would be really successful. All they did was exclude roughly half the population, because they killed them in the pilot, and the exclude most of the other half of the population, because they killed their love interests, and children.

Weird that it got cancelled so quickly.
You're using a bizarre definition of the word "exclude". Are you incapable of enjoying media where none of the major characters are exactly like you when it comes to certain immutable characterstics?

The graphic novel was pretty successful, but it was always going to be a perilous adaptation in today's political climate. It didn't manage to thread the needle.

I'm using a marketing definition in this case. The core tenet of writing to market is understanding who your audience is. Doesn't matter if it's a novel, TV show, or roleplaying game. This is true in all cases.

These audiences have preferences. Everyone likes to experience content as someone like themselves. This is why ensemble cast movies such as Independence Day did so well, because everyone had someone to identify with. Someone who IS like them, not someone who LOOKS like them. Pasty white Chris wanted to be Will Smith. So did almost every boy my age.

You can give any fantasy fan a copy of the Eye of the World, and the vast majority of us can empathize with Rand immediately. It doesn't matter what his skin color is. It doesn't matter that he's a man. He's a farmer, doing some chores, living with his dad, and worried about the man in black.

Y killed off all the men. As much as we try to avoid it we are a sexually dimorphic species. Most men, and most women, want very different things. The vast, vast majority of romance readers are women. The vast, vast majority of military science fiction readers are men. These patterns are not only inescapable, but they're easy to see if you've run as much money through facebook ads as I have. I can see it all.

If you identify as a:

- Man
- Woman who wants to marry a man
- Mother of a boy

Then you are going to have a visceral reaction to seeing all the people like you, or like someone you love, die. A certain number of people will find such a story fascinating, but it is a graphic novel sized market, not a network television sized market.

People consume stories to see characters grow. We benefit from the completion of character arcs. This show removed most of the possible arcs, and the remaining arcs are only relevant to a small portion of the audience.

Smart shows seek ways to include, not exclude. Am I saying that I can't appreciate a story from any perspective? No. I grew up reading Nancy Drew and Babysitter's Club in addition to Lord of the Rings. But most people aren't that way. Most people want a PoV like them, and if they don't have it, they can easily go find it elsewhere.

You can't both tell us that diversity is important, but then tell us it's not.


Pat

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2021, 04:17:02 PM »
You can give any fantasy fan a copy of the Eye of the World, and the vast majority of us can empathize with Rand immediately. It doesn't matter what his skin color is. It doesn't matter that he's a man. He's a farmer, doing some chores, living with his dad, and worried about the man in black.

Y killed off all the men. As much as we try to avoid it we are a sexually dimorphic species. Most men, and most women, want very different things. The vast, vast majority of romance readers are women. The vast, vast majority of military science fiction readers are men. These patterns are not only inescapable, but they're easy to see if you've run as much money through facebook ads as I have. I can see it all.
You're contradicting yourself. You can't say it doesn't matter if he's a man, and then in the next paragraph say it matters. Also, you just denied the possibility that Y could be successful as a graphic novel. Which it was.

There is some truth to marketing to stereotypes, but it's also limiting. Marketing is based on established patterns, not on new or breakout publications, or those that subvert expectations. Y definitely falls in one of the latter categories, and it seems to have worked or they wouldn't have published a total of 10 graphic novels. Y has a male protagonist, in a world of women, and is exploring what changes and what is maintained when one of the sexes vanishes. There's a universal component to that, and thus the potential for wide appeal, even if it's fundamentally not trying to follow the easy, established formula. It's more like weird little indie graphic novels, or conceptual science fiction, than most chapterbooks, thinly-veiled historical war drama set in space, or popular television series or movies. It's probably closer to Left Hand of Darkness than the Wheel of Time or the Vorksogian sagas.

I don't know what their expectations were in terms of audience size, but we've had some weird corner niche stuff that's been modestly successful on screen. Annihilation and The Man in the High Castle come to mind. Y could have been similar, but the problem is it's not good, at least based on the 2 episodes I watched. While I'm critical of the graphic novels, the TV series seems considerably worse. If contrariwise, it had improved on the graphic novel, I think it could have been a minor hit.

You can't both tell us that diversity is important, but then tell us it's not.
You just did.

And I do it all the time. It works because words can have different meanings in different contexts. The prevailing use of "diversity" is a tokenist form of racism and sexism, and is often countered by diversity of opinion, which is another narrow, but less bigoted, use. In less charged contexts, the term can be used more broadly. But it's important to signal when you're using the word in an unexpected manner, and it's essential to do so when you're switching definitions in a single work.

ChrisFox

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Re: Y The Last Man, INTERNET OUTRAGE IS MANDATORY!
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2021, 04:52:49 PM »
I'm not contradicting myself. You just need more context from the snippet you quoted. I said that people crave stories about people like them, and that Rand is identifiable. However, were it just his story then you'd lose a ton of female readers. It isn't. By the midpoint in the book we've had both Egwene and Nyneave's perspectives. This grounds female readers.

Your marketing knowledge sounds theoretical. Mine is practical. I've proven I can earn my bread with my written word. I'm not just guessing about this stuff, and being right about it is why I make a great six-figure living, and Y just got cancelled midway through its first season.

Nor did I deny Y's success as a comic. I specifically mentioned that it was a graphic market sized market, not a network TV sized market. It's clear you're not even reading my entire posts.

But note what that graphic audience is saying about the show. That success availed them nothing, because they pissed off the show's original fan base.

When I talk about diversity I'm talking primarily about diversity of role within a story. If you had a bunch of spartans like in 300, but some were BIPOC, and some were women, and some were super gay dudes, and some were transitioning...they would still all be filling EXACTLY the same character archtetype.

What Rand wants in the Wheel of Time is different from what Moraine wants which is different from what the forsaken want. That kind of diverse cast of PoVs drew a lot of people to the series. Not because they were specific races, or genders. But because they had lots of interesting perspectives.

Diversity as its used in hollywood is just a club. A quota. And it is and will keep strangling productions like this.

Get woke. Go broke.