Quote from: GrimGent;249321Nobilis by Rebecca Borgstrom are the first ones that come to mind.

Are we allowed to point out that a previously-male transsexual is unlikely to have the mindset of a typical woman?

Vampire seems like the classic example of a game successfully aimed at women, specifically Anne Rice fans, also played by men.  3e D&D went to a lot of effort to appeal to women, and I've seen a lot more female D&D players in the last 8 years than previously.

The best thing to about it, in this case, really is nothing.  The women that want to play will play because they're into it.  Let the rest go their own way and do their own thing.  Everyone in the world doesn't dig our hobby; let's not cause trouble by insisting upon it.

Quote from: S'mon;249658Are we allowed to point out that a previously-male transsexual is unlikely to have the mindset of a typical woman?

What's the mindset of a typical women ? Maybe Borgstrom has some insight which is of a different kind than the average straight male into the mindset of women. But why does it really matter ? Borgstrom's name was brought up in connection with rpgs designed by women.

QuoteVampire seems like the classic example of a game successfully aimed at women, specifically Anne Rice fans, also played by men.

Vampire was aimed at goths more than anything else.There are a lot more women in this particular subculture.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: S'mon;249658Are we allowed to point out that a previously-male transsexual is unlikely to have the mindset of a typical woman?

Even if that is the case (considering that it's idle speculation based on two of her research publications from the 90s being attributed to "Ryan" rather than "Rebecca"), I'd still hesitate to make any generalized blanket assumptions about how "typical women" think. What, I'm supposed to share a similar mindset with you, complete with preferences and psychological approaches to relationships or solving problems, just because the two of us happen to be biologically male? That's unlikely, to say the least, and faintly amusing in the same way as someone expecting me to show an interest in cars or guns or sports all because of this little quirk of birth.

Quote from: S'mon;249658Are we allowed to point out that a previously-male transsexual is unlikely to have the mindset of a typical woman?

You knew the answer would be "no", didn't you?

Quote from: S'mon;249658the mindset of a typical woman?

I have yet to meet one of those and strongly doubt that there is a "typical" woman in any meaningful sense.

:rolleyes:

There are archetypal male and female experiences that shape who we are.  Men and women experience the world in different ways, not only because of the vast differences in our bodies, but also because of the radically different ways our societies perceive us.

The common experiences form the core of gendered identity, and they are the reason why men tend to find it easiest to identify and relate to other men, while women find it easiest to identify and relate to other men.

The vast majority of men here have had typically male experiences:  getting a boner in the middle of class and having to hide it, getting rejected and humiliated by women, comparing yourself to your father, feeling the pressure to measure up against the great men of history, etc.  

Likewise, the vast majority of women have had typically female experiences: getting your first period, dealing with the interest of uninteresting boys, being afraid of rape and sexual assault, feeling the pressure to become a mother and wife, etc.

Being a man or being a woman isn't a matter of gross anatomy.  You can cut a man's penis off and make a vagina out of it, but that doesn't change history, that doesn't mean that the person suddenly has had female experiences, doesn't mean they haven't had male experiences.  Gender is more than biology, far more than anatomy, it's culture and history as well.

Male transsexuals and female transsexuals have more in common with each other, in terms of experience, than male-to-female transsexuals do with women or men.  They are a third gender, and it is entirely reasonable and rational "to point out that a previously-male transsexual is unlikely to have the mindset of a typical woman?"

It's a fact.  There should be no shame in pointing it out.

Quote from: Jackalope;249822The vast majority of men here have had typically male experiences:  getting a boner in the middle of class and having to hide it, getting rejected and humiliated by women, comparing yourself to your father, feeling the pressure to measure up against the great men of history, etc.  

Likewise, the vast majority of women have had typically female experiences: getting your first period, dealing with the interest of uninteresting boys, being afraid of rape and sexual assault, feeling the pressure to become a mother and wife, etc.

But ultimately all of those boil down to the same little problems of life spiced with a bit of biological and cultural variety thrown in: coping with akward physiological changes during puberty, coming to terms with rejection by whichever sex you prefer, avoiding your grandparents' questions about when you are going to marry and have children... Men feel the pressure to become fathers, too. Women compare themselves to their mothers, as well. Their personal experiences are not separated by some unimaginably vast gulf which no one can ever hope to cross.

Quote from: Jackalope;249822:rolleyes:

There are archetypal male and female experiences that shape who we are.  Men and women experience the world in different ways, not only because of the vast differences in our bodies, but also because of the radically different ways our societies perceive us.

The common experiences form the core of gendered identity, and they are the reason why men tend to find it easiest to identify and relate to other men, while women find it easiest to identify and relate to other men.

The vast majority of men here have had typically male experiences:  getting a boner in the middle of class and having to hide it, getting rejected and humiliated by women, comparing yourself to your father, feeling the pressure to measure up against the great men of history, etc.  

Likewise, the vast majority of women have had typically female experiences: getting your first period, dealing with the interest of uninteresting boys, being afraid of rape and sexual assault, feeling the pressure to become a mother and wife, etc.

Being a man or being a woman isn't a matter of gross anatomy.  You can cut a man's penis off and make a vagina out of it, but that doesn't change history, that doesn't mean that the person suddenly has had female experiences, doesn't mean they haven't had male experiences.  Gender is more than biology, far more than anatomy, it's culture and history as well.

Male transsexuals and female transsexuals have more in common with each other, in terms of experience, than male-to-female transsexuals do with women or men.  They are a third gender, and it is entirely reasonable and rational "to point out that a previously-male transsexual is unlikely to have the mindset of a typical woman?"

It's a fact.  There should be no shame in pointing it out.

That is all fine and good, but irrelevant unless playing an RPG is about the embarassment over your first boner or some other gender-specific experience, of which there are none I am aware.

If the author of Nobilis is a transexual, I don't see that as an impediment to them being able to design a game that others of either gender can relate to UNLESS the game were to focus primarily on experiences that only a transexual would understand or relate to. I have not read Nobilis, but I have not been lead to believe that this is the case.

My point about there being no "typical woman" was simply stating that despite the similar experiences you mention that most women share, individual differences render the concept of a "typical woman" useless when dealing with the subject matter found in most mainstream RPGs. If there is a "typical woman" as you suggest, she probably has no interest in RPGs in the first place (the same probably goes for a hypothetical "typical man").

Quote from: GrimGent;249832But ultimately all of those boil down to the same little problems of life spiced with a bit of biological and cultural variety thrown in: coping with akward physiological changes during puberty, coming to terms with rejection by whichever sex you prefer, avoiding your grandparents' questions about when you are going to marry and have children... Men feel the pressure to become fathers, too. Women compare themselves to their mothers, as well.

The pressure on men to become father is nothing like the pressure on women to become mothers.  Fatherhood is always secondary to the real pressure on men: to find a career.  To make something of yourself.  Being a father is something you do on the side, it doesn't define men.  No one sees being a fatherhood as a career in the way that society sees motherhood as a career.

Likewise, women's experience of being rejected pales in comparison to men's experience of rejection.  Women are far more likely to experience being passed over and ignored by men, but there is no expectation on women to go ask men out.  A woman who asks a man out is daring and courageous, a man who doesn't ask women out is a castrated coward.

QuoteTheir personal experiences are not separated by some unimaginably vast gulf which no one can ever hope to cross.

I never said they were, though I understand the desire to make an extreme straw man out of a mild observation.

Quote from: ConanMK;249839If the author of Nobilis is a transexual, I don't see that as an impediment to them being able to design a game that others of either gender can relate to UNLESS the game were to focus primarily on experiences that only a transexual would understand or relate to. I have not read Nobilis, but I have not been lead to believe that this is the case.

No one has made that claim.  No one is discussing the role of gender on content, and certainly no one has made any claims about gender (of any sort) being an impediment to game design.

QuoteMy point about there being no "typical woman" was simply stating that despite the similar experiences you mention that most women share, individual differences render the concept of a "typical woman" useless when dealing with the subject matter found in most mainstream RPGs. If there is a "typical woman" as you suggest, she probably has no interest in RPGs in the first place (the same probably goes for a hypothetical "typical man").

I wasn't addressing your claim Conan.  I was making an argument in support of S'mon.  I agree with him that citing Nobilis as an example of a game written by a woman is of questionable validity, because it's highly questionable whether a male-to-female transsexual is a woman.

Quote from: Jackalope;249844The pressure on men to become father is nothing like the pressure on women to become mothers.  Fatherhood is always secondary to the real pressure on men: to find a career.  To make something of yourself.  Being a father is something you do on the side, it doesn't define men.  No one sees being a fatherhood as a career in the way that society sees motherhood as a career.

On the other hand, in this society no one particularly cares that our president wasn't married when she was elected, or draws any conclusions based on whether she might have children or not. Her political career overshadows everything else in her life: in this, she's no different from any man who might have claimed the position.

Half a century ago a woman might have been regarded as exceptionally bold for taking the initiative in approaching someone she fancied, incidentally, but those days are long gone.

Quote from: GrimGent;249849On the other hand, in this society no one particularly cares that our president wasn't married when she was elected, or draws any conclusions based on whether she might have children or not. Her political career overshadows everything else in her life: in this, she's no different from any man who might have claimed the position.

Half a century ago a woman might have been regarded as exceptionally bold for taking the initiative in approaching someone she fancied, incidentally, but those days are long gone.

Huzzawhat now?

Quote from: Jackalope;249851Huzzawhat now?

I'm Finnish. Tell any woman around here that she should be treated differently from men, and there's a good chance that she'll bite your head off. We take equality seriously in these parts.

Quote from: GrimGent;249852I'm Finnish. Tell any woman around here that she should be treated differently from men, and there's a good chance that she'll bite your head off. We take equality seriously in these parts.

Good for you.  You're now the second Finnish person I've met online.  The other one was also obnoxiously feminist.

I'll cut you some slack since English is presumably not your first language, but no one has said anything about telling any woman she should be treated differently.

Keep trying though, eventually you'll respond to something that someone actually said.