Quote from: Jackalope;251262My IQ -- which is 154...

Really. Which test did you take, and when?

Quote from: Engine;251771Really. Which test did you take, and when?

I'm not sure which tests they were, I'd have to check my school records at my parent's place.  Which I have to admit is not going to make it onto my priorities list.  I was tested twice, once at 7 and once at 13.  Both were administered by the Seattle school system.

Quote from: Jackalope;251657David, I will never be able to prove John's racism to you, because you are a racist the same as he is.  You have convinced yourself that doing something to address the ongoing effects of racism is racist.

Anyone who has read my discussions with John Morrow (esp on the thread you linked to) will know that neither of us are racist. The problem here is not that I have convinced myself that doing something about racism is a racist act but rather your inability to realize that yours is not the only way to do something about racism. The fact that you label others - I'm including  minorities in this group as well - who have other solutions as racists says more about your attitude to minorities than the remarks Morrow has made.

QuoteThere is no chance that I will convince you that John Morrow is racist, because you and I mean very different things by racism.  I use a definition of racism that I was exposed to in college, the definition of racism used in academic circles.  This is a definition far more complex and in-depth than the simple definition given in the dictionary.

This is the problem right here. You conflate acadamic knowledge with real world experience. To say nothing of the fact that academia is riddled with intellectual dishonesty and partisan politics, so one has to prowl about very carefully. Perhaps if you listened to the diverse experiences , paying close attention to the discourse of minorities from the frontlines (who operate in the fringes) you would realize that racism as defined by colleges is a far different beast then racism defined by people living with it. And the liberal ideas of combatting it are not the only legitimate ones.

QuoteI'm not sure exactly what this means.  Your grammar is horribly confused, and the meaning of this sentence is very unclear.  The fragment "another way to look at it as black conservatives do is that it's akin" in particular is bewildering.

Let me clarify then. For many black conservatives the term crypto bigotry is very much like the concept of political correctness. It's used to silence dissent and manipulate the discourse.

QuoteAre you attempting to make the argument that liberals, by working towards addressing racism, are the cause of the "victimhood and maintaining the status quo of perpetual poverty?"

Sometimes yes. I don't know how familiar you are with the works of black conservatives....any minority conservative for that matter. Policies like affirmative action, goverment handouts etc are viewed by them as perpetuating the vicitmhood of minorities.  (I don't necessarily subscibe to these views - see my discussion with Morrow)

You must remember that the ideas of blacks as an underclass is fraught with misconceptions. As many conservatives have pointed out, in the bad old days they owned property, banks and generally sustained themselves by their own intiative. Some feel that the community has lost this spirit.

Here's a comment from a liberal website - it's about white feminism  but appropriate for this thread don't you think ?- that may you give an idea of what I'm talking about when I say, that liberals although well meaning may be causing more harm than good.

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/81260/on_prisons%2C_borders%2C_safety%2C_and_privilege%3A_an_open_letter_to_white_feminists/?page=1

QuoteThis is crypto-bigotry David.  You are blaming the people seeking a solution to the problem for the problem, and crediting the people actively opposed to finding solutions for the problem for...opposing finding solutions.

Not at all. This is a sophist argument. What I'm objecting to is your contention that there can only be one way to address the problems of racism. That anyone (even though they may be the very minorities you are seeking to help) who does not share your ideas of what the solution is, is racists.

Check out any of the links I have posted on threads about race in America for the diverse solutions offered by many blacks who don't subscribe to the traditional liberal solutions.

QuoteThat's right.  Only if you make the utterly bizarre assumption that women gamers are representative of all the women I know, or even a larger fraction of the women I've met.

QuoteOf the women I've met who I would consider gamers, the vast majority were people I would not want to associate with for any length of time.

QuoteI mean women have a real gift for playing social ostracizing games

QuoteIt doesn't help that women will do things like sulk for days while denying a male partner sex if

You were talking about women in general.

QuoteIf you're point is that I think gaming is a male-interest oriented hobby and that most of the female gamers I've met are weird, then fine, that's true.  But to make the leap from that to "You think all women are devious and manipulative." is ridiculous.

That's not my point at all.

QuoteThat's right.  It's not my job to make you comfortable.

But if you ever feel the need to make any of your liberal friends uncomfortable, expose them to some diverse views from minorities, like some of the ones I have linked to here on therpgsite.

QuoteYes, one could argue that, but then one would be a disingenuous sophist.

For an example of a disingenuous sophist I refer you to "this is crypto bigotry David.." post. Start acknowledging the diversity out there Jackalope.

QuoteYeah, because I just re-read the thread and you started it.  You make it worse by asking tons of non-rhetorical questions, each of which then spawns a little sub-conversation.

Says the guy who assumed that everyone was influenced by the dogma of Judith Butler. Who distorts arguments. Who claims he does not want point by point refutation but starts it twice for post totally unrelated to the subject of the thread.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;251843Anyone who has read my discussions with John Morrow (esp on the thread you linked to) will know that neither of us are racist. The problem here is not that I have convinced myself that doing something about racism is a racist act but rather your inability to realize that yours is not the only way to do something about racism. The fact that you label others - I'm including  minorities in this group as well - who have other solutions as racists says more about your attitude to minorities than the remarks Morrow has made.

What is your solution then?  John's solution is for black people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  What's yours?

QuoteHere's a comment from a liberal website - it's about white feminism  but appropriate for this thread don't you think ?- that may you give an idea of what I'm talking about when I say, that liberals although well meaning may be causing more harm than good.

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/81260/on_prisons%2C_borders%2C_safety%2C_and_privilege%3A_an_open_letter_to_white_feminists/?page=1

Dude...dude.  You blow me away.  You can see the racism in white feminism, but you can't see in in the conservative movement and Republican party?

Read this:   Yet it doesn't look to me like you've really reckoned with those critiques. It looks more like you appropriate or tokenize them, using their language while continuing to center white, class-privileged women's experiences in your "feminism" and engaging in political work that upholds and strengthens white supremacy and economic exploitation -- sometimes directly undermining the social-change work of feminists of color.I mean seriously, you -- coming from the position you are -- citing this article without seeing how it applies to YOU is simply mind-blowing.

Don't you get that this is EXACTLY what I'm accusing you of?  When you cite Thomas Sowell's critiques of affirmative action you are appropriating and tokenizing them, using their language while continuing to center white, class-privileged men's experiences in your "conservatism" and engaging in political work that upholds and strengthens white supremacy and economic exploitation.

QuoteNot at all. This is a sophist argument. What I'm objecting to is your contention that there can only be one way to address the problems of racism. That anyone (even though they may be the very minorities you are seeking to help) who does not share your ideas of what the solution is, is racists.

I've never made that contention.  I have only argued that doing nothing will not address the problems of racism, and that conservative solutions amount to doing nothing.

Quote from: Jackalope;251853What is your solution then?  John's solution is for black people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.  What's yours?

Pretty much the same as John's although your language is unnecessarily inflamatory. If you bothered to read the thread you linked to, you would realize that I got into trouble with my fellow racists Morrow, Gleichman and spike (I think) because I suggested that perhaps it was time for blacks to engage in solidarity. You would also have discovered that part of this would be to take into account both liberal and conservative views that are a part of the black community . Furthermore I gave a link to such a project being carried out in New York which was an example of this. Not a perfect example because funding came from the govenrment besides corporations.

QuoteDude...dude.  You blow me away.  You can see the racism in white feminism, but you can't see in in the conservative movement and Republican party?

Not at all. I see the racism in the conservative movement and the Republican party...more in the latter because the conservative movement has been hijacked by the Republican agenda. Again if you read any of the black conservative links I posted you would realize that this angers many black conservatives and is why people like Sowell who have since become Republican shills have lost credibility with many conservatives, black and white.

QuoteDon't you get that this is EXACTLY what I'm accusing you of?  When you cite Thomas Sowell's critiques of affirmative action you are appropriating and tokenizing them, using their language while continuing to center white, class-privileged men's experiences in your "conservatism" and engaging in political work that upholds and strengthens white supremacy and economic exploitation.

Then I put it to you that you have never studied Sowell - early Sowell - in any great depth. If anything he was a fierce advocate of minority self reliance and rejected the uplifting of race through political parties which he found riddled with partisan politics and displaying an almost contemptible and cynical view of race relations.

He was dangerous to white supremacist because he made them irrelevent and his appeal to the marignalized including whites, took away from their power and influence. Furthermore esp during the early days Sowell did not indentify with conservatism....he tried to establish that he was a libertarian....which let's face it, is a pretty dodgy idoelogy.

Please try to understand that Sowell's work esp his early work appealed to many subaltern cultures in Asia , Africa and the Middle East because of his rejection of established power structures and his call for self reliance. All this has changed now of course since he has become a lapdog for the Republican warmachine.

Again if you read any of the comment pieces I have linked to, you would see this.

QuoteI've never made that contention.  I have only argued that doing nothing will not address the problems of racism, and that conservative solutions amount to doing nothing.

Cute. But therein lies the rub. You are rejecting the voices of minorities, esp those who hold conservative views, in the belief that your way is superior. I don't think that you are a white supremacist but talk like this reeks of white supremacy and privilege.

The last few posts have been pretty civil and I think we both managed to salvage some of the dignity we lost. Are we done here ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;251861Cute. But therein lies the rub. You are rejecting the voices of minorities, esp those who hold conservative views, in the belief that your way is superior. I don't think that you are a white supremacist but talk like this reeks of white supremacy and privilege.

Wait...wait...wait.  Because I've called a handful of black conservatives strongly associated with the Republican party -- Sowell, Rice, Thomas, Keyes --  "Uncle Toms" you think I rejecting the voices of minorities, but you your self say about Sowell:

QuoteRepublican shill...lost credibility...a lapdog for the Republican warmachine.

What exactly do you think I meant when I called Sowell a Uncle Tom?  Did you think I was referring to Sowel of years ago, or Sowell now?  You and I seem to have pretty much the exact same opinion of Sowell, we just use different words.

And look, I get that you draw a distinction between the conservative movement and the Republicans, but I don't.  The conservative movement has been wedded to the Republican party since it's inception, and to outsider the two are largely indistinguishable.

Quote from: Jackalope;251870Because I've called a handful of black conservatives strongly associated with the Republican party -- Sowell, Rice, Thomas, Keyes -- "Uncle Toms" you think I rejecting the voices of minorities...

That you think using a using a racial pejorative is ok as long as it is against your ideology is rather enlightening.

Quote from: Jackalope;251870Wait...wait...wait.  Because I've called a handful of black conservatives strongly associated with the Republican party -- Sowell, Rice, Thomas, Keyes --  "Uncle Toms" you think I rejecting the voices of minorities, but you your self say about Sowell:

I think you are rejecting the voices of minorities with conservative views because many of them who have since abandoned Sowell still advocate his views about race. I disagree with the term Uncle Tom in general ...for me it's kinda of like the term feminazi.

QuoteWhat exactly do you think I meant when I called Sowell a Uncle Tom?  Did you think I was referring to Sowel of years ago, or Sowell now?  You and I seem to have pretty much the exact same opinion of Sowell, we just use different words.

I think we have the same view on a great many things. I have no idea which era Sowell you are refering to because many of his ideas you seem to reject when they come up in discussions about race esp when people like Morrow and Gliechman use them. That's when the term crypto bigot gets thrown around. Don't get me wrong I'm sure his ideas are used by bigots too.....I remember a friend linking me to a white hate site where elements of Sowell's theories inspired a "separate but equal" thread.

QuoteAnd look, I get that you draw a distinction between the conservative movement and the Republicans, but I don't.  The conservative movement has been wedded to the Republican party since it's inception, and to outsider the two are largely indistinguishable.

I think those with a more indepth knowledge of conservative philosophies would disagree with you but I'm not going to debate this with you. You may be right or wrong. I can just point out situations where conservative thinking departs from Republican dogma esp when it comes to minorities.

Regards,
David R

How did this go from a discussion of women's RPGs to one about racism? Does every discussion have to come down to racism?

Quote from: Demonoid;251885How did this go from a discussion of women's RPGs to one about racism? Does every discussion have to come down to racism?

Anyone who debates Jackie is racist, you haven't caught on?

Quote from: Jackalope;251775I'm not sure which tests they were, I'd have to check my school records at my parent's place.  Which I have to admit is not going to make it onto my priorities list.

Yes, of course.

You'll have to forgive my skepticism. Nothing in my previous experience would lead me to have anticipated that you had an IQ at 7 or 13 which was roughly analogous to that projected for Copernicus at his prime. Did you suffer some sort of brain damage between then and now, or do you simply not communicate your intellect particularly well?

Quote from: Engine;252694You'll have to forgive my skepticism. Nothing in my previous experience would lead me to have anticipated that you had an IQ at 7 or 13 which was roughly analogous to that projected for Copernicus at his prime. Did you suffer some sort of brain damage between then and now, or do you simply not communicate your intellect particularly well?

It's the internet.  Do you know what I'm usually doing while I'm arguing on the internet?

:emot-350:

It's the intellectual equivalent of dueling with a blindfold on.

Also, and this will sound conceited, but it's true: when you're arguing with people who aren't particular rational or reasonable -- which is most people, in my experience -- there isn't much pressure to try one's hardest.  

I mean seriously, if I put real effort into making an argument, and truly focus in on the problem, and show every faulty assumption and questionable conclusion made by the person I'm arguing with, do you know what happens?

A bunch of obfuscation, double-talk and just plain old obtuse denial.  Look at the argument with CavScout about age discrimination.  Why on Earth would anyone make a full effort to argue the difference between age discrimination and considering John McCain's age to someone who cites "age discrimination laws" without any understanding of them, for what are clearly disingenuous reasons?

I mean, given sufficient time and energy, I could make an incredibly powerful argument that CavScout is racist.  And I don't mean a little bit racist, I mean his entire opposition to Barack Obama is rooted in his absolutely irrational hatred of black people.  I could show you the pattern in his comments that I see, the mechanics of his mind, how he connects pieces of information, how he reacts to accusations of racism.  I could link the lines of thought in his posts to statements by other racists.

But what's the point?

It won't convince Koltar, gleichman, John Morrow, Spike or CavScout of anything.  They wouldn't even read it.  The people who would be open to being convinced don't need me to make anywhere near that effort, and the people who need to be convinced won't appreciate the effort.

Most of the time, there's no actual possibility of convincing anyone who is wrong that they are wrong.  Irrational people can't recognize when they are being irrational -- if they could, they would be rational people!  That's why the civil rights movement only achieved broad success amongst white people when the media started showing them the violence being perpetuated.  It was the emotional reaction to things like little girls getting blown up in church bombings that mobilized people to change their minds, not rational arguments.

Did he just say his arguments suck because he's so smart and his opponents are not?

Quote from: jackalopeIt's the intellectual equivalent of dueling with a blindfold on.

So discussion on internet (or in general) is only about showing these less manly than you, who's da boss...? I allways throught, that it's about exchanging ideas...

Quote from: CavScoutDid he just say his arguments suck because he's so smart and his opponents are not?

Quote from: FritzsSo discussion on internet (or in general) is only about showing these less manly than you, who's da boss...? I allways throught, that it's about exchanging ideas...

Thanks for illustrating my point.

CavScout gives us a rhetorical question with a loaded assumption that completely fails to comprehend the point.  If CavScout is interested in the exchange of ideas, he makes no effort to understand other peoples.  So clearly he's only interested in a one-way exchange, where we listen to him.

Fritzs' comment seems less disingenuous and more simply confused.  The conclusion he draws ("discussion is only about superiority") is not supported in any way by statements, he pulled it out of left field.  I always wished internet forums were only about the exchange of ideas, but sadly most people aren't actually very open to new ideas.

I'd be glad to hear CavScout's ideas, for example.  But he has no interest in sharing them -- notice his absolute evasion of requests for his opinion of Sarah Palin, or any request for clarification -- because he's not interested in exchanging ideas, he's interested in grinding axes and having people pay attention to him.