Yeah, sounds like a "well-duh" kind of question but bear with me.

I know a few atheists and consider them friends. Two of them have what I would consider a healthy attitude. They do not believe in gods but do not feel the need to campaign against those that do. Other atheists I know are hard core witnesses of the One True Enlightened Right Way. They will hound my friends of faith relentlessly until I tell them to lighten up. Usually they will take the hint.

I have seen similar behavior here. I have asked the same questions of friends showing the same behavior and it comes out like this:
1. They (those of faith) are always trying to convert me so give as good as you get!
I reply that it is part of their religion (for the most part) to witness to the unconverted. Point out the them that you are not interested and they will usually leave you alone. Again, this is my experience.

2. They are wrong and need to be shown the truth.
My reply is that they aren't wrong, they just believe differently than you. Is they an Athiest's bible that tells you to enlighten those not of your faith. (oh, they don't like it when I use the F word). What are they hurting in worshipping their religion.

2.a Religion causes war!
People cause war. If you were to eliminate religion their would be people fighting over non-religion, resources, and land along with anything else they could think up. Watch South Park.


For me, at least, it seems like a person (and this goes for those of any spiritual outlook) should be concerned with their conduct and personal beliefs more than converting the next person. Yes, if you feel the burning need, mention it but let it drop.

So, the point of the thread. Do the atheists of the board feel a burning need to convert/enlighten those of faith to the Truthiness of their convictions? If so, why?

Disclaimer: I am not a member of any church nor am I an atheist. I am honestly on the outside looking in and curious. I am not looking to make either group look bad nor do I have a hidden agenda.

Bill

I suspect an observer-phenomenon:  Your view of the group as a whole is biased by the fact that a vocal minority commands much more attention than a silent majority.

It´s a US thing. I heard a radio show, in which that was discussed.They said some Atheist groups in the US are getting quite militant and cultish these days.

Over here, it´s a total non-subject.

Atheists proselytize for the same reasons that theists do, ranging from a need to belong, a need to feel superior, a need to "help others see the truth," a belief that "he can't really be happy if he believes that," or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse.

Quote from: James McMurrayAtheists proselytize for the same reasons that theists do, ranging from a need to belong, a need to feel superior, a need to "help others see the truth," a belief that "he can't really be happy if he believes that," or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse.

And, on post #4, James nails it.

Quote from: TonyLBI suspect an observer-phenomenon:  Your view of the group as a whole is biased by the fact that a vocal minority commands much more attention than a silent majority.

I fully admit to the possibility of this being a lack of valid statisitcal population sampling on my part. I would go as far as to say, it is one of the motivations for this thread. I am hoping to hear, not only from the atheists, but also from those who know atheists to widen the population.

If it is only my experience as such,then that will be helpful to me as well in understanding the "why" of atheist proselytizers.

Bill

Quote from: TonyLBI suspect an observer-phenomenon:  Your view of the group as a whole is biased by the fact that a vocal minority commands much more attention than a silent majority.

Perhaps, but as an atheist myself I am often embarrassed by those I term the "asshole atheists" (Madeline Murry O'Hair, is a prime example).  I have noticed that many are ex-Catholics with a huge chip on their shoulders.

In the end, we all have to make sense of living on this rock-ball.  I don't begrudge people the explanation that works for them as long as they afford me the same respect.


TGA

Quote from: Zachary The FirstAnd, on post #4, James nails it.

Bingo.  What do we want to talk about now?


TGA

I forsee this ending badly.  We've got too many people with too many philosophy degrees and not enough to do for it to go any other way.


And just so I can contribute instead of witness: This sort of thing isn't limited to the atheists and theists either. I've had freinds cast spells and charms on me, dispell curses etc... quite often without asking if I really wanted them to try to hoodoo me.   I can see why some people get upset over that sort of thing.  They (the friends) believe they are honestly doing right by me to 'protect' me from evil spells, intent or spirits (or whatever), so much so that asking is rather like a paramedic asking a victim of a car wreck if it's okay to stop the bleeding.

I think it's a natural tendency for people to think everyone believes as they do... obviously this isn't true, but rather than accept it they must assume the other people are wrong...

Quote from: James McMurrayAtheists proselytize for the same reasons that theists do, ranging from a need to belong, a need to feel superior, a need to "help others see the truth," a belief that "he can't really be happy if he believes that," or any of a thousand other possible desires, practically none of which is a good enough excuse.

I find it strange but true James. To me, an atheists' beliefs, as they have been explained to me, should be all internal. They should almost be happier in knowing they can live this life to the fullest as it will be their only chance to experience it.

Sadly, I have found Jehovah's witnesses (who I often invite in and have vigorous discussions on religion with) less pushy than some atheists I know.

I hope you understand that I agree with you but hope for some broader, less mundane explanation. I fear though, you have the whole of it.

Bill

Well, let me answer this for me. I can't say any broader than that because atheism isn't a unified philosophy or anything, its just people who don't believe in god/gods/the supernatural of any sort (depending on the person).

So, let's see...

Quote1. They (those of faith) are always trying to convert me so give as good as you get!
I reply that it is part of their religion (for the most part) to witness to the unconverted. Point out the them that you are not interested and they will usually leave you alone. Again, this is my experience.

In part this is true. I think in the past 'we', so much as we can be thought of as a collective group, were willing to let it slide. Science and liberal, rational thought seemed to be on the march, inexorably and it was just a matter of time until that won out. After all, science provides provable results and answers the overwhelming majority of questions - now - that were previously the province of religion.

Something in the zeitgeist has changed though and thus there is a feeling that seems to be growing, at least in the atheist and humanist talking shops that I participate in, that ignoring the problem is no longer enough. Its the 21st century now and, instead of flying to the moon in my personal rocket car I'm watching the news about new crusaders in the middle east fighting jihaddies, stem cell research being blocked, fights over abortion, 'Intelligent Design' being taught in schools, astrology and new age philosophy, the 'teen witch' phenomenon and all manner of other nonsense going on.

For me at least I've been feeling a profound sense of... reverse future shock since 9/11 related to this. That, and the events after it, really brought home just how deeply rooted the problem of faith (and not just religious faith) is still rooted in the human psyche.

It might be part of their religion to witness to people. My belief system requires me to do all I can to stop the spread of bullshit, counter their claims and do what I can to preserve the future of the human species, and yes, I do think the stakes are that high.

Quote2. They are wrong and need to be shown the truth.
My reply is that they aren't wrong, they just believe differently than you. Is they an Athiest's bible that tells you to enlighten those not of your faith. (oh, they don't like it when I use the F word). What are they hurting in worshipping their religion.

Again I can't speak for all atheists but I would say my choice isn't a faith, it is an absence of faith. I demand evidence before I believe something. In every other facet of someone's life than religion they will generally act the same way as I do in all aspects of my life. Making decisions based upon evidence.

It isn't just that they believe differently, many of these beliefs are demonstrably wrong and yet these people are making decisions based upon faith, not reason. Voting for things for the same reason, being played for suckers by leaders using religious rhetoric and it does impact on others. Anything you can do to counteract that, be it personal argument or stunts like The Blasphemy Challenge, why the hell not?

To me it seems like you're arguing that going after their faith is impolite. I agree with Dawkins and Harris on this matter. Religion should not be given a free pass when it comes to criticism of this sort any more than politics or what football team you support gets special reverence.

Quote2.a Religion causes war!
People cause war. If you were to eliminate religion their would be people fighting over non-religion, resources, and land along with anything else they could think up. Watch South Park.

Religion does cause war, and persecution, and it retards progress. Sure, other things cause war, resources being the best example, but these conflicts are often justified with religious or faith reasons. Do you think the war on Iraq would have been so supported had the given reason been 'We need to secure oil supplies, contain China and send a message to those considering changing to the petroeuro' had been the reasons given?

Religion divides by, mostly, giving each group the message that they are special and chosen, destined, correct above all others and leaving them with an irreconcilable position.

QuoteSo, the point of the thread. Do the atheists of the board feel a burning need to convert/enlighten those of faith to the Truthiness of their convictions? If so, why?

Not so much to convert/enlighten as to criticise and break down, to show the flaws and problems and try to educate. If I talk to someone about evolution, I'm not necessarily saying 'you must become an atheist like me', I'm just saying this is how we're pretty damn sure things actually happened. Here's why. What do you have to back up your belief?

Etc.

EDIT : Actually... not worth it.

Because a bad Christian touched them in a naughty place

Quote from: SpikeI forsee this ending badly.  We've got too many people with too many philosophy degrees and not enough to do for it to go any other way.

I will say, this was a concern when starting this thread. I am waiting for the long-winded definition of Faith, Religion, Gods, and belief structures to pop up. To me, I was hoping for peoples views not resertations from college level philosophy books. But, I am sure we will get what we get. I have found the thread useful already.

Quote from: SpikeAnd just so I can contribute instead of witness: This sort of thing isn't limited to the atheists and theists either. I've had freinds cast spells and charms on me, dispell curses etc... quite often without asking if I really wanted them to try to hoodoo me.   I can see why some people get upset over that sort of thing.  They (the friends) believe they are honestly doing right by me to 'protect' me from evil spells, intent or spirits (or whatever), so much so that asking is rather like a paramedic asking a victim of a car wreck if it's okay to stop the bleeding.

I think it's a natural tendency for people to think everyone believes as they do... obviously this isn't true, but rather than accept it they must assume the other people are wrong...

To me, and I might be splitting hairs, it is much the same. These people believe in spells. It is their religion and their religion states they can do special things for their friends. I would suppose, more then just a sense of friendship, they are trying to "show" or "witness" to you the power of their faith.

That said, I am sure I am throwing around religion pretty loosely. Still, it seems to fit and I agree, such actions are not limited to the groups described here. Politics, athletics or any enthusiast can be so sited. For the purposes of this thread though, I am looking at atheists since it would seem they have no mandate (unlike most religious groups) to witness their beliefs on others and they are in direct opposition to those who do (i.e. religions and people of faith).

Bill

Quote from: The Good AssyrianBingo. What do we want to talk about now?
 
 
TGA

Boobs, gaming.  Possibly a mix of the two.