Quote from: Hastur T. FannonBecause a bad Christian touched them in a naughty place

For some that's true, sure, there's a revenge trip.

But other than being forced to sit through prayers at Primary School when I just wanted to start eating I have no particular religious-based trauma

As the husband of a wonderfullly endowed woman, I can tell you that great boobs + gaming = Heaven on Earth. And no amount of atheist progandizing will convince me otherwise.

Quote from: GRIMWell, let me answer this for me. I can't say any broader than that because atheism isn't a unified philosophy or anything, its just people who don't believe in god/gods/the supernatural of any sort (depending on the person).

So, let's see...



In part this is true. I think in the past 'we', so much as we can be thought of as a collective group, were willing to let it slide. Science and liberal, rational thought seemed to be on the march, inexorably and it was just a matter of time until that won out. After all, science provides provable results and answers the overwhelming majority of questions - now - that were previously the province of religion.

Something in the zeitgeist has changed though and thus there is a feeling that seems to be growing, at least in the atheist and humanist talking shops that I participate in, that ignoring the problem is no longer enough. Its the 21st century now and, instead of flying to the moon in my personal rocket car I'm watching the news about new crusaders in the middle east fighting jihaddies, stem cell research being blocked, fights over abortion, 'Intelligent Design' being taught in schools, astrology and new age philosophy, the 'teen witch' phenomenon and all manner of other nonsense going on.

For me at least I've been feeling a profound sense of... reverse future shock since 9/11 related to this. That, and the events after it, really brought home just how deeply rooted the problem of faith (and not just religious faith) is still rooted in the human psyche.

It might be part of their religion to witness to people. My belief system requires me to do all I can to stop the spread of bullshit, counter their claims and do what I can to preserve the future of the human species, and yes, I do think the stakes are that high.

Thanks. Actually, this is just what I was asking. Your belief system says you should witness your beliefs on others. Just because there is not emoticon for it, no, I am not being sarcastic.

Quote from: GRIMAgain I can't speak for all atheists but I would say my choice isn't a faith, it is an absence of faith. I demand evidence before I believe something. In every other facet of someone's life than religion they will generally act the same way as I do in all aspects of my life. Making decisions based upon evidence.

It isn't just that they believe differently, many of these beliefs are demonstrably wrong and yet these people are making decisions based upon faith, not reason. Voting for things for the same reason, being played for suckers by leaders using religious rhetoric and it does impact on others. Anything you can do to counteract that, be it personal argument or stunts like The Blasphemy Challenge, why the hell not?

To me it seems like you're arguing that going after their faith is impolite. I agree with Dawkins and Harris on this matter. Religion should not be given a free pass when it comes to criticism of this sort any more than politics or what football team you support gets special reverence.

Quite the opposite. My intention is to look at the internal motivation of an atheist. This will be as varied as any group of people of faith you care to name. I am not saying "Don't pick on religion of people of faith". Heck, I do it all the time. I am more interested in why atheists feel the need to convert/witness to to people of faith. Your post has done a great job from your POV.

Quote from: GRIMReligion does cause war, and persecution, and it retards progress. Sure, other things cause war, resources being the best example, but these conflicts are often justified with religious or faith reasons. Do you think the war on Iraq would have been so supported had the given reason been 'We need to secure oil supplies, contain China and send a message to those considering changing to the petroeuro' had been the reasons given?

Religion divides by, mostly, giving each group the message that they are special and chosen, destined, correct above all others and leaving them with an irreconcilable position.

I disagree. People cause war. Religion might be the excuse or the tool to accomplish the ends but wars are caused by self interest. However, that is a whole different thread.

Quote from: GRIMNot so much to convert/enlighten as to criticise and break down, to show the flaws and problems and try to educate. If I talk to someone about evolution, I'm not necessarily saying 'you must become an atheist like me', I'm just saying this is how we're pretty damn sure things actually happened. Here's why. What do you have to back up your belief?

Etc.

Good post. Thanks for your POV.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltYeah, sounds like a "well-duh" kind of question but bear with me.

Should I slip in the "Why are the religious so anti-atheist?" counter-question, or shall we presume it as read?

QuoteI have seen similar behavior here. I have asked the same questions of friends showing the same behavior and it comes out like this:

Is there where I come in, having been the freshest on the topic? :keke: Alright, what the hey. I can only answer for me, and for my part I couldn't care less about converting people because I don't get in on Sisyphean struggles.

Quote1. They (those of faith) are always trying to convert me so give as good as you get!
I reply that it is part of their religion (for the most part) to witness to the unconverted.

I reply that's a non-starter. "You have to let me try to convince you of things you don't believe in, things you don't believe in say so!" I am not beholden to suffer the commands of the voices in anyone's head.

QuotePoint out the them that you are not interested and they will usually leave you alone. Again, this is my experience.

Or try harder, showing up more often. Or follow you down the street as you walk away, exhorting you about their gibberish. Or jump you, beat you, and leave you in a park spitting blood because you happened to mention the four accounts of the Resurrection have more contradictions than similarities. I, likewise, have only personal experience to work on.

Quote2. They are wrong and need to be shown the truth.
My reply is that they aren't wrong, they just believe differently than you.

Like Flat Earthers, phrenologists, and Nox, right? Nobody's wrong, they just believe differently.

Quick tip: Beliefs can in fact be wrong.

QuoteIs they an Athiest's bible that tells you to enlighten those not of your faith. (oh, they don't like it when I use the F word). What are they hurting in worshiping their religion.

I've found atheists tend to want more than one source for their information. :haw: But that was cheap, so let's move on.

I've got no problem with your use of "faith" here, if we're using it the same way it's used when people talk about their "faith"; fidelity. I hold to what can be proved and consider what we cannot prove, discarding the absurdly unlikely. And I'm assuming the third sentence is facetious, given the historical record of religious belief in general. If not, I ask it simply; "What are they hurting in just being fascists? They're not in power."

Quote2.a Religion causes war!
People cause war. If you were to eliminate religion their would be people fighting over non-religion, resources, and land along with anything else they could think up.

Oh, certainly. But there's nothing quite like religion to make an otherwise decent man feel good about going to war and killing somebody from another tribe.

QuoteFor me, at least, it seems like a person (and this goes for those of any spiritual outlook) should be concerned with their conduct and personal beliefs more than converting the next person. Yes, if you feel the burning need, mention it but let it drop.

So, the point of the thread. Do the atheists of the board feel a burning need to convert/enlighten those of faith to the Truthiness of their convictions? If so, why?

For the record I haven't been converting anyone, but I make no bones about the fact that I do not offer a person's unfounded convictions, typically born of youthful indoctrination, the unquestioning respect that is often demanded. We don't feel obligated to respect delusions held by one person, and I don't think quantity of believers makes up for quality of evidence, or weight of evidence against. YMMV, and all that, but I can certainly try to hold my tongue if someone's getting scared by the unbeliever.

Recently, I discovered a site called whydoesgodhateamputees.com.  It was eye opening because it was pretty much a summary of how I feel and have felt for many years on the subject.  

On the same site was an essay about the word "atheist" which I found especially truthful and enlightening.  The site says that being labeled an "atheist" is the same as being labeled a "communist" during the McCarthy era.  I've found that true my entire life.  And it really is rather backwards when you think about it.  If I believed that unicorns were real and would appear whenever I asked, I'd justifiably be seen as insane.  But, American culture labels the people who don't believe in the Unicorns as the dangerous people while the unicorn faithful are seen as the balanced ones.

As for why people who don't subscribe to religious beliefs get so militant, you'd need to look around their environment.  The religious people are creating an incredibly hostile environment, and are being outright damaging in many areas by following the agenda of their imaginary supreme being by forcing everyone to obey laws from a history book of highly dubious accuracy.  We all laugh at Chick tracts.  Have you read the one where a secular government has established a fascist state where Christians are tracked and executed?  Non-religious people can easily look at that tract and recognize that it's exactly what the fundamentalists would do to everyone labeled "atheist" if they got their way.  And with what is going on in this nation right now, that future looms WAY too close.

To put my cards on the table.  I think anyone who honestly believes in a god is being irrational, but everyone has little goofy things like that.  If you believe in a god, I really don't care.  But, if your beliefs restrict my rights as a human being, then not only are you irrational, but you're fucking dangerous.  So, for most people, your religion is nothing more than a quirk to me.  I don't give a fuck whether you believe in some Magic Deer or unicorns or whatever.  But once you start telling me that I can't read certain things, can't play certain games, can't get certain medical care, that I have to pray to your Magic Deer, or that I have some kind of lesser status as a human being because of my dismissal of your Magic Deer, then you become someone I fucking loathe.

If other people are like me, then there's your answer right there.  We look around and see our abilities to go on about our lives curtailed constantly by idiots and religious lunatics and idiot religious lunatics.  The sane people are under attack by those who demmand everyone follow the way of the One True Unicorn.

Quote from: GRIMBut other than being forced to sit through prayers at Primary School when I just wanted to start eating I have no particular religious-based trauma

I'm at least half-convinced that Church of England Primary Schools are a satanic plot to inoculate children against real religion

Quote from: Christmas ApeShould I slip in the "Why are the religious so anti-atheist?" counter-question, or shall we presume it as read?

I was going to post a thread about this but it went too far to the "Well, duh" range. They are commanded to do so in their religious documentation (for the most part).

Quote from: Christmas ApeIs there where I come in, having been the freshest on the topic? :keke: Alright, what the hey. I can only answer for me, and for my part I couldn't care less about converting people because I don't get in on Sisyphean struggles.

I reply that's a non-starter. "You have to let me try to convince you of things you don't believe in, things you don't believe in say so!" I am not beholden to suffer the commands of the voices in anyone's head.

Or try harder, showing up more often. Or follow you down the street as you walk away, exhorting you about their gibberish. Or jump you, beat you, and leave you in a park spitting blood because you happened to mention the four accounts of the Resurrection have more contradictions than similarities. I, likewise, have only personal experience to work on.

Like Flat Earthers, phrenologists, and Nox, right? Nobody's wrong, they just believe differently.

Quick tip: Beliefs can in fact be wrong.

Sigh. Yes, i did not use a fully qualified statement. Religious beliefs.

And, please, for you and any others who want to bring it up. I would like this not to turn into a "Nox is wrong thread" or "You are Nox" thread. Please.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI've found atheists tend to want more than one source for their information. :haw: But that was cheap, so let's move on.

I've got no problem with your use of "faith" here, if we're using it the same way it's used when people talk about their "faith"; fidelity. I hold to what can be proved and consider what we cannot prove, discarding the absurdly unlikely. And I'm assuming the third sentence is facetious, given the historical record of religious belief in general. If not, I ask it simply; "What are they hurting in just being fascists? They're not in power."

Oh, certainly. But there's nothing quite like religion to make an otherwise decent man feel good about going to war and killing somebody from another tribe.

And he can feel equally good about killing a man for being proven inferior due to science. People propagate lies. Different people use different means and I am not trying to say that religion is good, that is your job.

Quote from: Christmas ApeFor the record I haven't been converting anyone, but I make no bones about the fact that I do not offer a person's unfounded convictions, typically born of youthful indoctrination, the unquestioning respect that is often demanded. We don't feel obligated to respect delusions held by one person, and I don't think quantity of believers makes up for quality of evidence, or weight of evidence against. YMMV, and all that, but I can certainly try to hold my tongue if someone's getting scared by the unbeliever.

Unfortunately, I feel you have missed the whole point of the exercise. That is not bad since it has given me another POV to review.

Bill

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI'm at least half-convinced that Church of England Primary Schools are a satanic plot to inoculate children against real religion

I have this wishful dream that the CoE will become entirely secular and end up like the United Church in Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth.

Quote from: HinterWeltAnd he can feel equally good about killing a man for being proven inferior due to science.

Objection.
Science has proven otherwise, though persons of faith have attempted to use science to back up faith based positions on this matter.

For my part, i'm not rabidly anti-religious. I just don't believe. What other people choose to believe is none of my business and what i choose to believe is none of theirs. And that's where the problems start for me. I don't go knocking on peoples doors or acost them on the street to tell them of my beliefs and ask them about theirs. I'm comfortable with my own views on the subject and don't need 'saving'. Effectively, bearing witness seems to be a licence to a lot of folks to poke their noses into other folks business. If i was interested, i'd go to church. Simple.

On a slightly more critical note perhaps, i got into a discussion with my niece the other day about life, the universe and everything. Things moved on and lots of ground was covered and finally the bible cropped up in conversation. Now, this is fairly ancient stuff for modern man and although there is some knowledge of the disciples and how the gospels were written etc, hard evidence is thin on the ground. She then said "Say in 2000 years time, after who knows what wars, plagues etc have happened in the interim, there is a new religion based on documents handed down during that time. The great prophet Harry Potter and his disciples cast down the evil *insert baddies name here*, created the miracle of the flying car among others...." you get the point.

Quote from: GabrielRecently, I discovered a site called whydoesgodhateamputees.com.  It was eye opening because it was pretty much a summary of how I feel and have felt for many years on the subject.  

On the same site was an essay about the word "atheist" which I found especially truthful and enlightening.  The site says that being labeled an "atheist" is the same as being labeled a "communist" during the McCarthy era.  I've found that true my entire life.  And it really is rather backwards when you think about it.  If I believed that unicorns were real and would appear whenever I asked, I'd justifiably be seen as insane.  But, American culture labels the people who don't believe in the Unicorns as the dangerous people while the unicorn faithful are seen as the balanced ones.

As for why people who don't subscribe to religious beliefs get so militant, you'd need to look around their environment.  The religious people are creating an incredibly hostile environment, and are being outright damaging in many areas by following the agenda of their imaginary supreme being by forcing everyone to obey laws from a history book of highly dubious accuracy.  We all laugh at Chick tracts.  Have you read the one where a secular government has established a fascist state where Christians are tracked and executed?  Non-religious people can easily look at that tract and recognize that it's exactly what the fundamentalists would do to everyone labeled "atheist" if they got their way.  And with what is going on in this nation right now, that future looms WAY too close.

To put my cards on the table.  I think anyone who honestly believes in a god is being irrational, but everyone has little goofy things like that.  If you believe in a god, I really don't care.  But, if your beliefs restrict my rights as a human being, then not only are you irrational, but you're fucking dangerous.  So, for most people, your religion is nothing more than a quirk to me.  I don't give a fuck whether you believe in some Magic Deer or unicorns or whatever.  But once you start telling me that I can't read certain things, can't play certain games, can't get certain medical care, that I have to pray to your Magic Deer, or that I have some kind of lesser status as a human being because of my dismissal of your Magic Deer, then you become someone I fucking loathe.

If other people are like me, then there's your answer right there.  We look around and see our abilities to go on about our lives curtailed constantly by idiots and religious lunatics and idiot religious lunatics.  The sane people are under attack by those who demmand everyone follow the way of the One True Unicorn.

hmm, I think things have gone off track but here goes.

I totally agree with you. Let me point out, if Pipe Layers Union were doing the things you note, I would fight them. I just do not believe (i.e. it is not my experience) that it is "Some Evil Religious Conspiracy TM" programming the faithful to suppress you atheist commies. It is people. Do not doubt, if you get beat up in the park "for believing as you do" it is those people who have decided to do harm. Sure, the church may be the social club or it might be the hunting club, or the knitting circle. Does this mean we need to dissolve all social clubs? Yes, absurd but to the point which is not the point of the thread. Let's just say, whether it is the pope commanding the faithful to invade a country or Bobby getting beat up on the playground because he is a catholic, it is still people making those choices. However, it is easier to say "Catholics are evil and stupid and dress funny". Now, that may sound like I am defending the Catholics but I equally abhor the in your face Christians who beat on non-believers. I personally believe the whole thing (on both sides) is silly as all get out. I believe if people took a little more time to worry about their own actions it would be much better than worrying about your neighbors;i.e. lead by example. Note: this does not mean inaction but acting against the points you wish to defend based on your beliefs. Fight injustice if that is what you believe in. It is a waste of time to convince someone that their long held beliefs are wrong unless they are looking for new beliefs. Yeah, how do you know if you do not ask? Ask, explain, but engage in discussion, not preaching.

That said, I am still very interested in personal views. I just hope it will help in the discussion if I share my views.

Bill

Quote from: GRIMObjection.
Science has proven otherwise, though persons of faith have attempted to use science to back up faith based positions on this matter.

It has now. 60 years ago, science "proved" the Jews inferior. It was used as a tool.

My point, before everyone goes off on the "Tired Nazi Argument", is that people will find justification for war. Religion as a social structure often facilitates this as the most convenient but is seldom the "cause" of war. People willing to kill their brothers over a piece of land, some resource or just because they are different will always be the root.

Again, let me point out that the above is just my view of it.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI totally agree with you. Let me point out, if Pipe Layers Union were doing the things you note, I would fight them. I just do not believe (i.e. it is not my experience) that it is "Some Evil Religious Conspiracy TM" programming the faithful to suppress you atheist commies. It is people.

Bill, it isn't the same thing as the Piper Fitters deciding to smash your head in, or whatever, because the Piper Fitter's charter doesn't say in its clauses and membership details 'Thou shalt dash Grim's head in with a monkeywrench' while religious texts DO contain many such intructions.

Quote from: HinterWeltIt has now. 60 years ago, science "proved" the Jews inferior. It was used as a tool.

I would still argue that this was due to prevalent religious opinion biasing both results and interpretation of those results.

Unlike religious dogma, however, science is self-correcting.

Quote from: One Horse TownFor my part, i'm not rabidly anti-religious. I just don't believe. What other people choose to believe is none of my business and what i choose to believe is none of theirs. And that's where the problems start for me. I don't go knocking on peoples doors or acost them on the street to tell them of my beliefs and ask them about theirs. I'm comfortable with my own views on the subject and don't need 'saving'. Effectively, bearing witness seems to be a licence to a lot of folks to poke their noses into other folks business. If i was interested, i'd go to church. Simple.

On a slightly more critical note perhaps, i got into a discussion with my niece the other day about life, the universe and everything. Things moved on and lots of ground was covered and finally the bible cropped up in conversation. Now, this is fairly ancient stuff for modern man and although there is some knowledge of the disciples and how the gospels were written etc, hard evidence is thin on the ground. She then said "Say in 2000 years time, after who knows what wars, plagues etc have happened in the interim, there is a new religion based on documents handed down during that time. The great prophet Harry Potter and his disciples cast down the evil *insert baddies name here*, created the miracle of the flying car among others...." you get the point.

Let me say, I am not keen on the "witnessing" either. I am willing to carry on discussions but I feel it is inherently wrong on a personal level. Witnessing, IMO, should be limited as you point out. However, I think many religions would be non-existent at this point if such commandments were not in place. I find it a minor inconvenience in the larger scheme of things. This is my view on it though, and I could see someone holding a much stronger objection to it.

Interesting perspective from your niece. How old is she? That seems very insightful.

Bill