TheRPGSite

The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 12:25:28 PM

Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 12:25:28 PM
I'm starting to get fucking sick of this. Like sick in a deep, penetrating sense to my very bone-tiredness.

I've run this site for 9 months or so now, and in that time I HAVE BANNED NO ONE.
I've had to use sanctions against exactly 2 people.
I've had to warn a couple more.

And EVERY FUCKING DAY I put up with the usual suspects, attacking and insulting me at every turn on this forum. Whatever I post, the usual bunch are there, insulting and lying about me.
And every Admin decision I make, they call me a fascist, and claim that this board is headed toward tyranny.  WHEN IN FACT, ITS THE LEAST-MODERATED BOARD OF ITS SIZE IN THE ENTIRE HOBBY.

So here's my deal: are you happy with what I've been doing as Admin here? Do you think that those who are attacking me are the ones who really have theRPGsite's and free speech's best interests at heart? Or is it me who does?

Do any of you really believe that JArcane or James McMurray or Jimbob would be better admins who would value and defend free speech like I have, who would put up with the abuse I put up with every fucking day, and wouldn't just have gone on a fucking banning-spree by now?

Here's your chance to convince me that there are still people on this site who support what I'm fighting for. Otherwise, what the fuck is the point of me carrying on with it?

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: One Horse Town on June 13, 2007, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit


Here's your chance to convince me that there are still people on this site who support what I'm fighting for. Otherwise, what the fuck is the point of me carrying on with it?

RPGPundit


I think that's the point. A lot of people don't want you running the site, due to your views, the perception of you on the net and to a degree, your blog. You've made enemies old chum and some of them hang out here. I would, however, hate to think that some people are only here to piss in your cornflakes, 'cos that says more about them than it does about you really.

That's free speech for you though. Some people aren't mature enough to handle it. To some, it's an excuse to slag everyone off and say naughty words. To others it means that you can express your thoughts without censure or fear. Some posters need to look at the first instance and i think that you need to look at the second instance.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 13, 2007, 12:48:09 PM
To be honest, I don't even think of this site as "moderated" at all, so the personal turf-wars you folks have going on are kinda like some brushfire war in some other country. Sucks to be them, but meh. If they're getting under your skin, that's your business, but I fail to see how it would, could, or should affect the site. Go off and yell at each other all you like. Until they decide to infect the site with a worm or attack it with denial-of-service, I don't see what their opionion of you has shit to do with the site.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: The Good Assyrian on June 13, 2007, 12:49:03 PM
Taking metric tons of shit is part of the job, I suspect.  I have disagreed with some of your calls, the original Nox banning idea for example, but overall you and the other admins have done a good job in creating a vibrant site which I enjoy.  I, of course, reserve the right to loudly castigate you for any calls that I think are bullshit in the future, but the fact that I can confidently expect to be able to do so speaks well for you and this site.

In the end, you are going to take shit no matter what you do, Pundit.  My advice is to not worry about it.  My only real concern is that you tend to be big on your "authority", which is a conceit that makes you a huge fucking target and, in my opinion, leads you to make some bad decisions.  I suggest you turn down the dial a bit on that.

TGA
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Koltar on June 13, 2007, 12:53:16 PM
Pundit,

 At times I think you're a big stinking asshole.

 HOWEVER,

 As an Admin, I think you are one of the fairest ones around.
 You're doing just fine.

 Hey - at least with you , we know what your biases are up front ...and I've actually seen you backpedal on a few things when Jeff Rients or others called you on it.

 In general, Pundit,  you're fair about most stuff. You just cuss and swear a whole lot.

 Not a big fuckung deal tho.

- Ed C.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Skyrock on June 13, 2007, 12:53:17 PM
That the board is least moderated doesn't mean that things couldn't be improved.
Moreover, it's bad style in my eyes to evade responsibility by pointing out that critics would be worse sysops. I don't have to be a better game designer than Rein*Hagen to criticize VtM for its flaws, for instance.

Look, I appreciate the policy of this place a lot, and I think that you do a good job in general. That's what intrigued me - and I doubt that I count as part of the usual anti-Pundit crowd.
However, I think that the two sanctions still run counter to this policy. They're still way better than the stuff that happens elsewhere. However, to K.O. two men a year with your bare fists is also better than to shoot fourty men a year, so I wouldn't rest on those laurels and look for improvement.
Room for improvement doesn't mean that things are bad, either.

I would simply let social dynamics take care of that. That's at least what I've read in the constitution - tell me if I understood that wrong.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Brimshack on June 13, 2007, 12:55:28 PM
2 Cents from the peanut gallery:

1) Free Speech on a website is a non issue. It's your site; you control it's content. We can ask questions about fairness and decency in the way people are treated, but the notion of free speech implies a right that does not obtain for a private forum.

2) I think the issue here is at least partly one of rhetoric. Since you have made public statements to the effect that free speech is an absolute value here, any instance of banning, topic banning, or editing, etc. is inconsistent with that message. Whether or not this is the least moderated board in the hobby doesn't matter; if you've made categorical statements to the effect that free speech will not be interfered with, then even reasonable actions will fail to match that standard. There are of course at least 2 ways to resolve any inconsistency. One would be to allow any and all statements to go without interferenace. Another would be to  reconsider your statement on the subject. Perhaps a frank statement to the effect that certain kinds of speech will be moderated would be in order.

3) Most people are less concerned about a blank check on free speech than they are the perceived fairness of moderation. Some kinds of speech can be disruptive, and few object to the notion that you can or should correct such speech. There will always be questions about specific actions, even with the best moderation. And ironic criticisms are common. At a certain point you just have to accept that things will not appear to the membership quite as they are behind the scenes. You make the call as best you see it, and you let the chatter go. But I do think a more realistic statement on the nature of moderation at this board might help to shift the question from one of do you or don't you moderate to one of whether or not the specific actions have been fair.

A few things that I do think would help, albeit they would begin you on the slide towards a more rules based moderation philosophy.

Clarity: As I recall, you describe sanctions in the form of physical punishment. It's funny, but it doesn't answer the question of what sanctions will actually occur and how they can be squared with a doctrinaire stance that free speech will not be curtailed here under any circumstances.

Depersonalization: It's tough to square the notion of fair moderation with insults to the individual moderated or arguments against his last post. One of the hardest things to stomach is a moderator weighing in on an issue at the same time he is taking official action on the subject. This is why it's often good to make a rule of thumb that if you particupate in an argument, you get another moderator to handle any official problems that arise from it. By logical extension, it also helps to have at least one mod stay out of any discussion if you can. Either way judgements ought to be handed down with as little vituperation as possible. You have the gavel and your wielding it. That matters more than any extra commentary you can deliver. So, throwing on insults serves only to weaken the significance of your official action, even as it feeds the perception that you yourself are pursuing a personal dilemma.

I doubt you'll want to take either of these suggestions as they go quite against the tone of the forum. Fair enough, but I think that does make it harder to answer your critics. Your policies do not match your explicit statements on the nature of free speech, and it does not take a personal vendetta to see this. Combined with the VERY personal nature of your official moderation, this makes every official action taken on this board an immensely personal affair. Ultimately, who is and who isn't subject to sanction and who is or isn't criticizing you will remain largely a question of your personal relationships with the specific members in question. A cadre of personal critics bashing you in harsh personal terms seems like one of the likely consequences.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: C.W.Richeson on June 13, 2007, 12:57:06 PM
I agree with One Horse Town.

I like your tolerance of criticism and free speech, and I like the idea of the site continuing with peer-based moderation for now.  I don't think that will be viable as the site continues to grow, but we'll see.

I do dislike how hateful and adversarial your posts tend to be and believe they set the tone for the site.  If the site is to grow beyond being the bitter anti-RPG.net website it so often appears to be it's only going to happen if you choose to lead the site in that direction.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: David R on June 13, 2007, 12:57:44 PM
I think you're a fucking wanker and therpgsite is probably the one positive thing you have contributed to this hobby - online anyway. Besides a few missteps - the first James M consultation thread, and definitely the Lev thread -you are doing a good job. So far besides the incidents I've mentioned you (and the other mods) have done nothing to raise my "destroyer of free speech" alarm

I'm here to talk about games and not really to test the limits of free speech. I always thought that free speech in this (rpg forum) context was to make communication more honest without the passive/aggressive BS that plagues other boards.

*shrug* Nothing much to add...oh, except that d20 poll must hurt, right?

Regards,
David R
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Pierce Inverarity on June 13, 2007, 01:03:07 PM
Pundy, you're doing just fine.

You'll have to deal with the fact that a nigh-unmoderated board will attract weirdos and free speech paladins, with the latter defending TO THE DEATH the former's right to being a pain. They're symbiots. Such is infraweb life, don't worry about it.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on June 13, 2007, 01:16:10 PM
I like the atmosphere here; I like the people, I like most of the discourse.  Sometimes people get all snarled up in pro-huamnity blah blah blah and I just roll my shoulders and keep walkin'.

So if I toss aside your personality, Pundit (which isn't an issue here), I think that the laissez-faire approach to moderation, the lack of bannings, the warning etc., are OK.  In short, I don't worry about getting shit that I didn't ask for.

I'm not fighting any damned war with you, though.  You can, and good luck.  I'm not here as a political statement -- I'm here to talk games, goof off, swap ideas and advce, and generally chill with my homies.  You whole "War" and "Swine" stuff is...fuck a duck, I don't get it.  It's like you're playing The Fringe or somethin'.  No one's lost an eye yet so I say nothing, but I stay outta that side of the yard just in case.

I like the site.  Yes.  Good job not being a modhammer, Pundit.  Now chill.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Ronin on June 13, 2007, 01:17:41 PM
I'm not a very prolific poster by any means. But I like the very light handed to not exsistant moderation. Other places I tread or have tread in the past. I felt like I had to watch my words. Lest I be struck down by the mods or regulars. I dont feel that way here. So I think this place is successful and a good place to discuss things. Or at least thats what my experience has been.
As for you and others clashing. Thats just what happens sometimes when strong personalities and egos meet. Dont let them bother you. And if its pundit that bothers you, dont let him. (I know easier said than done)
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: HinterWelt on June 13, 2007, 01:33:44 PM
Taking a different view here than others.

Simply, Pundit's post seems more about "Wah! I can dish it out but I cannot take it" than "These subversives have threatened the freedom of the People's speech". Honestly, and quite simply, if you (Pundit) do not wish to be attacked at every turn, then moderate your posting style. This is not your blog. It is a forum. Obvious to some, not so much to others.

As to admin of the site, personally, I would much prefer Jeff. Banning is not the issue, locking threads is not the issue, we could have both and still have as much latitude to speak our mind. The issue is the method those bans (and even Pundit has admitted it will happen) are laid down. In this, we need to ask ourselves, will Pundit be rational, look at the facts and make an informed unbiased decision? I would bet on no. Some folks would say yes.

Now, another aspect of the admin/owner of the board role that other have brought up, the effect such a person has on the mood/reputation of the board. I have felt, and continue to believe, that Pundit's ownership is a negative. It paints the boards as a hate-mongering anti-RPG.net site. Now, it would be bad enough if Pundit was just a member, but that would carry a different stigma than that of being "his board".

Finally, as far "defending free speech" by the methods defined in this thread, all Pundit need do is nothing (in terms of moderation). Honestly, I always though of this board as "survival of the fittest". With that in mind, what is it we truly need to discuss? Do we need to comfort our poor, reasonable and beleaguered leader? Do we need to step up to defend poor Pundit who has never lied about what others have said or driven people off the site?

I believe, very strongly, you reap what you sow.

Bill
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: JamesV on June 13, 2007, 01:36:02 PM
This is my go-to site. It has people I like and they talk about stuff I like with a minimum of admin/mod fuss. However it's hard to avoid the fact that your Pundit persona and his stances attracts heat, as a matter of fact, it may be the primary flamebait for the board. I think that if you wish to maintain the low level hand on this board you may have to reconcile your ego with the folks who make antagonizing you their online hobby.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Joey2k on June 13, 2007, 01:37:14 PM
Another vote for "no complaints, fine job".

I honestly don't pay enough attention to any feuds anyone might have with you, so I really don't know what the fuss is about, but on occasion the name-calling and cursing do make me chuckle.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: David R on June 13, 2007, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: HinterWelt
I believe, very strongly, you reap what you sow.



Very true Bill, but the question here I think is, has the Pundit done anything to fuck with free speech ? IMO, no.

Regards,
David R
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: HinterWelt on June 13, 2007, 01:48:52 PM
Quote from: David R
Very true Bill, but the question here I think is, has the Pundit done anything to fuck with free speech ? IMO, no.

Regards,
David R

See, I believe that is the stated question, but the motivation is a sense of attack on all sides by Pundit. He has phrased his question such that you are forced to agree. For instance, he offers unacceptible candidates for his replacement when the obvious choice, Jeff, is at hand. An excellent example of disingenuous debate.

So, to the point, has he done anything to abridge free speech by use of his moderator powers? No, and I admit as much.  He has threatened to ban three people. Nox, I cannot fault. The blame lies as much with Nox as others. However, Lev and James, this seems little more than not being able to take it and having the power to ban. Note, he did not ban them but he did use his powers to threaten it. I cannot do that, nor has anyone else been afforded his protection.

So, technically, no, but I do believe the issue runs much deeper than that.

Bill
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: JamesV on June 13, 2007, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: David R
Very true Bill, but the question here I think is, has the Pundit done anything to fuck with free speech ? IMO, no.

Regards,
David R


Has he fucked with the idea that posters should be able to say whatever they want? Well, if you count banning as the most definitive form of shutting someone up here it has been bandied about.  It should be noted that aside from the example of Nox, who was a de facto detriment to the site by carrying some generally offensive opinions that he wouldn't stay quiet about, the rest of the people that I can recall who have been threatened with sanctions have had directly to do with their negative relationship with Pundit.

Pundit, If you're gonna have big contentious opinions, you have to be ready and able to take the heat for it. I'm just glad you haven't banned anyone yet because of it.

In other words, what Bill said.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: One Horse Town on June 13, 2007, 01:53:16 PM
It should also be pointed out that John Wick was hounded out of here and Grubman, for a short while, by other posters, not the pundido. Let him without sin and all that...
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: JamesV on June 13, 2007, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town
It should also be pointed out that John Wick was hounded out of here and Grubman, for a short while, by other posters, not the pundido. Let him without sin and all that...


If someone gets chased out by a snarky mob, that can be pretty shitty, but it's not the same thing as someone who actually has the power to prevent someone from logging in.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: David R on June 13, 2007, 02:19:38 PM
Quote from: HinterWelt

So, technically, no, but I do believe the issue runs much deeper than that.



This reply is also to JamesV.

Yes the deeper issue is : Do we really want someone like the Pundit running this board?

Now, as far as I'm concerned, the job he is doing so far is good. Whatever problems I may have with his rhetoric I'll deal with whenever the mood suits me most probably in the rpg section of this forum.

Regards,
David R
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: beejazz on June 13, 2007, 02:21:04 PM
Well, I come here for the stuff about gaming, mostly. The stuff about posters hating each other and shouting about it? Could do without. The stuff where posters who hate each other snipe each other in gaming related threads? Could really do without.

I'm glad Nox isn't here. If someone is that disruptive and doesn't contribute, I care less about free speech than about reading about gaming. I can say whatever on my blog if I really need to vent... good info on RPGs? Hard to find. The real difficulty here I guess is that the people who are being disruptive also post interesting and constructive stuff. You could let this keep going, and threads will have pages of flames to go through to get to the good stuff... or you could ban people and there wouldn't be so many threads with stuff wort looking at. If there were an option that would lead to less arguing and more constructive posts, I'd go for it. But the constructive and disruptive aren't clearly dilineated. If they were, I'd have just ILed a couple folks and that'd be the end of it.

My advice? Stir less shit. The vitriol is just an invitation for the flames that lead to any need to ban people. And to others, call him on his shit when its shit. When something's okay, don't mention "but you said this in such and such a place." I think it was Jimbob that said something to the effect of that two people could agree in one thread and disagree in another that was good, and that letting shit bleed from one thread to the next was a big part of the problem.

My point is... do I have a point? I guess I support whatever gets us back to talking about gaming.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 13, 2007, 02:23:05 PM
My point is, it dosn't feel to ME like the board is BEING "run" by anyone. He's just another sometimes interesting, sometimes annoying poster, near as I can tell. Until such time as he starts using his "power" to actually ACT like a mod, then anyone feeling constrained by his attitude is putting those constraints on themself. HE hasn't stoped you from saying, thinking, or feeling any damn thing you please, so why is it a point of contention about who "owns" the site?

Or am I just not being hyper-sensitive enough?
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Seanchai on June 13, 2007, 02:23:20 PM
Personally, I think you should do two things:

1. Make the following part of a sticky, the rules, etc.: "fighting and arguing with me: won't get you in trouble. trying to harm the site or part of the site itself just to get back at me: will get you in trouble."

2. Care less. People are going to bitch and moan. You only get to control your response to it. You can run around trying to defend yourself against every allegation of censorship or you can be happy.

Seanchai
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Seanchai on June 13, 2007, 02:26:04 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town
It should also be pointed out that John Wick was hounded out of here and Grubman, for a short while, by other posters, not the pundido. Let him without sin and all that...


Not to mention the whole Nox business.

Seanchai
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Sacrificial Lamb on June 13, 2007, 02:26:32 PM
Pundit, you're doing fine. But you need to lighten up a bit, and develop a thicker skin. People will give you shit. So what? It comes with being a mod. Just chill out and relax a bit more; you'll feel better. :keke:
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Seanchai on June 13, 2007, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: David R
Yes the deeper issue is : Do we really want someone like the Pundit running this board?


Here's the bottom line: Do you really have a choice? Aside from leaving, that is.

Seanchai
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: David R on June 13, 2007, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: Seanchai
Here's the bottom line: Do you really have a choice? Aside from leaving, that is.



Yeah. And also has it reached the point where this question even needs to be asked.

Regards,
David R
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 02:59:47 PM
Pundit is a moderator.  That means, by pure right of his position, that his behavior is going to come down as if from an authority position.  Even more so on a board where the primary method of moderation is simply through puplic admonishment.

If you've got a problem with that, then tough shit, and I'll be sure to remind you of that problem next time everyone jumps on the "Let's bitch about Darren or Curt from RPGnet" bandwagon again.

Now, when that moderator voice is constantly attacking anyone who shows the slightest sign of wrong think, interrogating users like it's the House Subcommittee on Un-American Activities, accusing everyone and anyone who disagrees with him or he sees as a threat to his authority of "conspiracy", constantly waving around the "You should be lucky I haven't banned you!" flag, or the "You should be lucky I didn't completely ban you, I 'only' fucked with your account" he waves after he's done with whatever petty shit he's pulling lately, or the "public consultations" that he makes clear have zero fucking effect on any of his decisions, and only serve to act as yet more threats to users he doesn't like.

I mean come on people.  Pry your lips off Pundit's ass for a second and ask yourself how you'd respond if the moderator of any other fucking board on the planet behaved the same way.  

I do give a shit where this site is going, and right now the biggest threat to the "free speech" this site claimed to be about when I signed on, is the man upstairs waving the banhammer around pretty frivolously, waiting only for the moment when his paranoia and insanity overcome his pride and he really starts backing this shit up.  

And the more people trickle in here from other sites elsewhere, the more varying viewpoints drift in that don't mesh with his approved set of opinions, the more psychotic his behavior is going to get, and he'll just keep throwin' that weight around all the more.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: NYTFLYR on June 13, 2007, 03:06:44 PM
this is a game site, so is (was?) RPG.net... why there has to be a discussion about "free speech" is beyond me, just talk about games...
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 13, 2007, 03:40:15 PM
The day Pundit bans someone for anything related to HIS personality or opinions is the day the site dies. Simple as that. He can wave whatever he wants around and scream whatever he likes, but the day he crosses the line that everyone knows is there, kablooie.

And yea, his personality sucks raw eggs. If he'd stop screaming and just talk, sometimes, I imagine people's opinion of him would change a bit. Not all of us like having a conversation with the drill sargent from "Full Metal Jacket" screaming in our face constantly.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:21:05 PM
Quote from: Brimshack
2) I think the issue here is at least partly one of rhetoric. Since you have made public statements to the effect that free speech is an absolute value here, any instance of banning, topic banning, or editing, etc. is inconsistent with that message. Whether or not this is the least moderated board in the hobby doesn't matter; if you've made categorical statements to the effect that free speech will not be interfered with, then even reasonable actions will fail to match that standard. There are of course at least 2 ways to resolve any inconsistency. One would be to allow any and all statements to go without interferenace. Another would be to  reconsider your statement on the subject. Perhaps a frank statement to the effect that certain kinds of speech will be moderated would be in order.

Yeah, except that what I said from the beginning was that Free Speech would be absolutely valued here, but disruption of the site itself would not be tolerated.  I NEVER promised that no one would ever be banned, in fact I've said multiple times since the very beginning of this site that I am fairly certain that sooner or later someone will get banned. My certainty of this is because I knew that one or more people who want nothing good for this site would try to hide behind "free speech" as a way to do things that actually disrupted or endangered the functioning of this site itself, and I wanted to be perfectly clear from the beginning that this would not be allowed. Neither will cyber-stalking; as in direct and repeated personal attacks on someone that include threadcrapping and non-topical posts made only to annoy.  I can think of several posters who could be considered to be doing that very thing to me right now, but have been excessively lenient of that against my person in particular just to make sure that Free Speech was given as much leeway as possible.

In other words, this site's practice of free speech doesn't mean that posters should be allowed to do things to harm the site (ie. "yelling fire in a crowded theatre"), or be repeatedly and consistently abusive of other posters just because; not even against me.

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: David R


*shrug* Nothing much to add...oh, except that d20 poll must hurt, right?

Regards,
David R


Not really, though it did surprise me.

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:27:41 PM
Quote from: JamesV
If someone gets chased out by a snarky mob, that can be pretty shitty, but it's not the same thing as someone who actually has the power to prevent someone from logging in.


Yes, but my point is that I HAVEN'T DONE THAT: Not to anyone, not even to Nox, who half this site wanted lynched, and who hates me personally.

And the way some of my detractors are talking, it would sound like I have a pile of corpses of the banned under my skull-throne as the evil-mod King.

When its just not true, and I don't think that any of my loudest detractors would be more capable of defending the rights of people they dislike than I have been; most would in fact be far far worse at it.

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:29:26 PM
Quote from: Werekoala
My point is, it dosn't feel to ME like the board is BEING "run" by anyone. He's just another sometimes interesting, sometimes annoying poster, near as I can tell.


And THAT tells me I'm doing it right.
Now if only more people would realize the implications of what that means in regard to how good the moderation of this site really is, in all humility. :p

Anyways, thanks, Werekoala.

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Blue Devil on June 13, 2007, 04:29:30 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
And EVERY FUCKING DAY I put up with the usual suspects, attacking and insulting me at every turn on this forum. Whatever I post, the usual bunch are there, insulting and lying about me.

RPGPundit


I wanted to cover this part right here.

Pundit, is it people attacking you for no reason insulting you, etc or is it people who disagree with what you saying calling bullshit?

I am serious about this.  

Quote from: RPGPundit
Do any of you really believe that JArcane or James McMurray or Jimbob would be better admins who would value and defend free speech like I have, who would put up with the abuse I put up with every fucking day, and wouldn't just have gone on a fucking banning-spree by now?


Dude, being an Admin part of the job is taking crap and not having users agree with you.  Happens on all forums.  Look at all the crap the rpg.net admins take.

If you want to be an admin of a forum you have to take the good and the bad
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:30:31 PM
Quote from: Seanchai
Personally, I think you should do two things:

1. Make the following part of a sticky, the rules, etc.: "fighting and arguing with me: won't get you in trouble. trying to harm the site or part of the site itself just to get back at me: will get you in trouble."

2. Care less. People are going to bitch and moan. You only get to control your response to it. You can run around trying to defend yourself against every allegation of censorship or you can be happy.

Seanchai


That's certainly good advice, Seanchai.  And thank you, by the way, for the various occasions you have stood up for my administration. I appreciate it.

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb
Pundit, you're doing fine. But you need to lighten up a bit, and develop a thicker skin. People will give you shit. So what? It comes with being a mod. Just chill out and relax a bit more; you'll feel better. :keke:


I think I have a pretty thick skin... it took nine months of constant abuse hurled at me by multiple people before I even started a thread complaining about it.  :p

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: TonyLB on June 13, 2007, 04:31:36 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
So here's my deal: are you happy with what I've been doing as Admin here?
Absolutely.  You do very little, and that's just how I like it.

It saddens me on your behalf that "doing very little" (to hear you tell it) seems to require an act of monumental self-restraint that exhausts and frustrates you.

You'd get the same results by just being lazy and not giving a fig what people think of you ... and it seems like it would cost you much less effort.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RPGPundit on June 13, 2007, 04:33:51 PM
Quote from: J Arcane


I mean come on people.  Pry your lips off Pundit's ass for a second and ask yourself how you'd respond if the moderator of any other fucking board on the planet behaved the same way.  

I do give a shit where this site is going, and right now the biggest threat to the "free speech" this site claimed to be about when I signed on, is the man upstairs waving the banhammer around pretty frivolously, waiting only for the moment when his paranoia and insanity overcome his pride and he really starts backing this shit up.  


What utter bullshit, J Arcane, as usual.

If you had acted toward any mod on any other site the way you have towards me every fucking day, you wouldn't be there anymore.
You are living breathing posting proof of my level of tolerance in the name of free speech.

RPGPundit
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 04:38:56 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
What utter bullshit, J Arcane, as usual.

If you had acted toward any mod on any other site the way you have towards me every fucking day, you wouldn't be there anymore.
You are living breathing posting proof of my level of tolerance in the name of free speech.

RPGPundit

Ahh yes, the "You should be happy I haven't banned you yet" defense.

Rings pretty hollow after your shit with James.  But I suppose he's just supposed to be happy that that mysterious "other admin" didn't get his way and ban him completely right?

You're full of shit and you know it.  I don't even believe this "other admin" even exists, and even if he does we all know who wields the banstick around here anyway, don't we?
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Serious Paul on June 13, 2007, 04:45:10 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
WHEN IN FACT, ITS THE LEAST-MODERATED BOARD OF ITS SIZE IN THE ENTIRE HOBBY.

Do you count Bulldrek and AnimalBall as part of the Hobby. Both have far less moderation than this board. But I realize you may think of them as more general interest sites and less hobby devoted than this site. And to be fair, that might be a fair assessment.

Quote
So here's my deal: are you happy with what I've been doing as Admin here?

I think you do an overall good job. Obviously no one can please everyone all the time. Nor should they have to.

Quote
Do you think that those who are attacking me are the ones who really have theRPGsite's and free speech's best interests at heart? Or is it me who does?

This is a trick question. It assumes we all see the situation like you do. What you see as an attack I see as internet disagreements. My definition of censorship obviously differs from your own.


Quote
Do any of you really believe that JArcane or James McMurray or Jimbob would be better admins who would value and defend free speech like I have, who would put up with the abuse I put up with every fucking day, and wouldn't just have gone on a fucking banning-spree by now?

I have no idea. I don't know any of them. But then I also don't particularly see you as a champion of free expression, or free speech.

Quote
Here's your chance to convince me that there are still people on this site who support what I'm fighting for. Otherwise, what the fuck is the point of me carrying on with it?

Well no one will be looking for the exact same thing you are, otherwise they'd all be you. We'll all differs lightly. While this post is certainly filled with all sorts of emotion, it's pretty lacking in logic and reason.

But then you know that.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Serious Paul on June 13, 2007, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
Pundit is a moderator.  That means, by pure right of his position, that his behavior is going to come down as if from an authority position.

That's a pretty narrow view. I am friends with the moderators of several boards, and they don't run their show like that. (Well the DSF people do, but that's another story, and I'm perma-banned from there anyways.)

Quote
Even more so on a board where the primary method of moderation is simply through puplic admonishment.

Is it?

Quote
... ask yourself how you'd respond if the moderator of any other fucking board on the planet behaved the same way.

You've obviously never been to Bulldrek or AnimalBall.  You should check them out.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 04:55:15 PM
Why don't you go back to your precious Animalball?  Because right now you DO seem to be a prime example of someone who's only here to disrupt, since you've only shown up and started posting again to ride this latest flap, and haven't even showed your face around here for weeks prior.  

I, on the other hand, like to talk about games.  You do remember games don't you?  I mean, I've seen the topic and post numbers over there, they clearly dont' talk about them much, but they haven't totally forgotten them altogether, have they?
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: jrients on June 13, 2007, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
But I suppose he's just supposed to be happy that that mysterious "other admin" didn't get his way and ban him completely right?

You're full of shit and you know it.  I don't even believe this "other admin" even exists, and even if he does we all know who wields the banstick around here anyway, don't we?


The other admin exists.  I don't consider it fair to out others, but Pundit and I weren't the only two admins discussing this situation in the Double Secret Admin Clubhouse.  And back in December when James and Pundit went at it yet a fourth admin called for his outright banning back then.  So there you have it.  We all know who wields the banstick and two times he had people urging him to use it on James.  Yet James didn't get banned.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 05:00:29 PM
Quote from: jrients
The other admin exists.  I don't consider it fair to out others, but Pundit and I weren't the only two admins discussing this situation in the Double Secret Admin Clubhouse.  And back in December when James and Pundit went at it yet a fourth admin called for his outright banning back then.  So there you have it.  We all know who wields the banstick and two times he had people urging him to use it on James.  Yet James didn't get banned.
I just think it's a bit convenient that every time Pundit pulls one of his public moratoriums, or starts fucking with somebody's account, there's always someone else to blame, or some mysterious "other" who supposedly wanted worse, so we should just all be greatful for his great leniency.

It's still dictatorial bullshit, only made worse by patronizing, self-aggrandizing bullshit.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: EssEmAech on June 13, 2007, 05:20:47 PM
I only mostly lurk (a lot) here, but I do post from time to time.

Pundit, while you come off adversarially in almost every post I've ever seen you make (not all, mind), I get that it's just part of your personality.  I've never gotten the impression that you'd use your modly abilities at a whim.  Many times when you could have (and I know a lot of folks would have) brought your banstick down, you didn't.  You responded in kind, with inflamatory, derisive language.  To me, that does suggest that you value the ability to speak your mind when and where you want to.  

Whether other posters are right about your personality and ownership of the site is detrimental to it, well, I don't know if I agree or disagree, that's a very subjective thing.  

It speaks well of the site to me that I feel comfortable to post in and about political topics here, and I know there's going to be more posters that want to discuss the subject at hand than berate my political or religious belifs.  Given I haven't participated in this sort of thing much around here, but there's a good track record so far.

Personally, I like it here a lot, and I hope you decide to continue with the site.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Serious Paul on June 13, 2007, 05:20:48 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
Why don't you go back to your precious Animalball?  Because right now you DO seem to be a prime example of someone who's only here to disrupt, since you've only shown up and started posting again to ride this latest flap, and haven't even showed your face around here for weeks prior.


Like last time I find myself with more time on my hands, having been injured in the line of duty. Under normal circumstances I have less time to post. But to address you're question I feel no need to return to AnimalBall, having never left.

While a lot of topics aren't game related over there, many are.  Sheer volume doesn't equate to quality in my book, since the vast majority of threads here and there are useless to me.

Quote
I, on the other hand, like to talk about games.


Gee, what game are we discussing here? If you like games so much only post to those threads. Show your unmitigated support of games by never posting  in off topic again! Oh wait, that'd be as unreasonable as you are.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: JamesV on June 13, 2007, 05:40:24 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
Yes, but my point is that I HAVEN'T DONE THAT: Not to anyone, not even to Nox, who half this site wanted lynched, and who hates me personally.

And the way some of my detractors are talking, it would sound like I have a pile of corpses of the banned under my skull-throne as the evil-mod King.

When its just not true, and I don't think that any of my loudest detractors would be more capable of defending the rights of people they dislike than I have been; most would in fact be far far worse at it.

RPGPundit


That is true. I was just trying to illustrate the differences in power of a mob and the responsibility of an admin/mod. To your credit, no one has been outright banned, and as far as your detractors are concerned, maybe you are better off ignoring them.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: shewolf on June 13, 2007, 05:45:10 PM
I'm really new, so maybe I should sit down and STFU. But I'm not known for acting with discresion ;)

I've so far called pundit rabid, baited him a bit, and generally acted like an ass. I'm still here. I love TBP. Tangency is a fun place, if you're not discussing politics. But I came here because I heard that I could post a little more freely than over there. And once in a while, I'm a bitch (and not just once a month, so stop rolling your eyes!).

So far, I'm content here. Although we need more small, fuzzy mammals around.... :D
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Serious Paul on June 13, 2007, 05:50:02 PM
Quote from: shewolf
I'm really new, so maybe I should sit down and STFU.


Absolutely not. Todays lurker may be tomorrows prolific poster.That's the thing, this site has to keep a core group of posters, but unless it wants to stagnate it also needs to attract some fresh perspective and opinions.

People who lurk now may be the next big JimBobOz next week, or next year. The guy we run off today may be the creator of the next big thing, and that'd suck to have run someone off when we could set this place up as a clearing house for all sorts of things-games, big ideas, political discourse, entertainment, etc...
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: brettmb2 on June 13, 2007, 05:53:50 PM
It's reasons like this thread that you need to appoint a proper fascist to run one little job now and then. Personally, I can't stand the Pundit's choice of words most of the time, but he's not afraid to tell us his opinions, doesn't suck up to anyone, and has some good ideas. Say what you want about him, but HE DID fight for James. If I had a choice, I would completely do away with the off-topic forum -- to me, it only invites arguments and other problems -- or what I call nonsensical issues like this.

I enjoy reading the rpg-related posts and reply when I have some free time. I do not read the off topic discussions except to make sure everything is running smoothly. But with my limited view of off-topic, all I ever see is James McMurray in the middle of these problems. I don't know if he really is the cause behind anything or if he was egged on by Pundit. I don't care.

So for the record, Pundit was reluctant to impose any punishment on James McMurray. I was the one who said ban him, because frankly, Pundit is a lot more tolerant than I am and does very little to squash these arguments, contributing to most of them himself. He's probably also forged a love-hate relationship with him, whereas I am totally apathetic towards the whole situation. Ban or no ban -- it's all the same to me. The more bickering I see, the less I want to get involved or even read a thread, which is sure to do the same for new visitors.

This is a site about gaming, not idealogy or politics or whatever else. If you're getting that worked up over something, shouldn't it be for something important? Nothing here could possibly be that important. You're not going to change anything that matters here. You're just going to create more wasted space in the database that will just sit and sit until finally deleted.

My advice is to worry less about Pundit and off-topic, and talk about games, the sole reason for this site. The fact that I even have to waste my time writing this is pretty troubling. Again, if it were up to me, I would close this thread along with off-topic, and tell you all to just have some fun posting about or playing some games.

I'm not here to debate anything unless it's gaming-related, so don't look for any replies.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 06:00:48 PM
Quote
This is a site about gaming, not idealogy or politics or whatever else.


Except that Pundit routinely makes even the gaming threads about ideology and politics, and even trots this site out regularly as some kind of personal political statement.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Animalball Brasky on June 13, 2007, 06:05:34 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
Why don't you go back to your precious Animalball?  Because right now you DO seem to be a prime example of someone who's only here to disrupt, since you've only shown up and started posting again to ride this latest flap, and haven't even showed your face around here for weeks prior.


No way.  We don't want him.  If you haven't heard, he's a giant dickhead.

...

NAH!  I'm just fucking with you, Paul.  You know we love you at AB.  

Quote
I, on the other hand, like to talk about games.  You do remember games don't you?  I mean, I've seen the topic and post numbers over there, they clearly dont' talk about them much, but they haven't totally forgotten them altogether, have they?


Yeah, you really like talking about games in these threads where you bitch.  Don't attack my site and address his point.  Or maybe the diversion was your intent.

Here's the problem with Paul's original point, and I think it was intended in Pundit's original post- he said that this site has the most hands off moderation for "sites of this size".  And I think he's right.  This site is way bigger than Animalball and I wouldn't want my site to be this active for the very reason that I'd have the headaches and bullshit that Pundit has.  Sure I think Pundit had a bit of an overreaction and probably shouldn't have made this post seeking affirmation of what he's doing-- but I totally understand why he did it.  It's fucking hard trying to keep this site true to his vision of it.  It's fucking frustrating and fucking hard and he puts up with a bunch of assholes bitching at him.  Would I do the same thing at Animalball?  Maybe not-- but it's a completely different vibe.  Rest assured I'd have no problem banning people I thought were total assholes and I wouldn't even offer an explanation of it.  But I've just got a high threshold for what I consider a total asshole.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 06:14:28 PM
Quote
Yeah, you really like talking about games in these threads where you bitch. Don't attack my site and address his point. Or maybe the diversion was your intent.


My only point regarding Paul is basically, "Who the fuck are you then"?

It's not like the guy exactly spends a lot of time here.  Mostly he seems to just pop up whenever there's some big new drama, and tries to fan the flames as best he can.  When he wasn't getting a rise out of one side of the argument, then he turns around to the other side and starts with the sniping.

Fuck him.  What gives him the right to criticize anything on this site, when he doesn't even bother to hang around except when there's OMG DRAMA! to exploit for his own entertainment?

THAT is "disruption" if anything is.  Not James, who despite his issues with Pundit, still spends a hell of a lot of time here and contributes a lot to the RPG discussion here.  But some high-minded little pissant who's only here to start shit, and will promptly disappear again as soon as he realizes the drama's over?  Yeah, I can do without that, thanks.

I could level the same at you, it's not like you show your head here much.  But you made a funny in that RPGnet thread, so I'll leave you alone.  ;)
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 13, 2007, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: shewolf

So far, I'm content here. Although we need more small, fuzzy mammals around.... :D


Oo! Oo! Pick me!
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: EssEmAech on June 13, 2007, 06:34:12 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
My only point regarding Paul is basically, "Who the fuck are you then"?

It's not like the guy exactly spends a lot of time here.  Mostly he seems to just pop up whenever there's some big new drama, and tries to fan the flames as best he can.  When he wasn't getting a rise out of one side of the argument, then he turns around to the other side and starts with the sniping.

Fuck him.  What gives him the right to criticize anything on this site, when he doesn't even bother to hang around except when there's OMG DRAMA! to exploit for his own entertainment?

THAT is "disruption" if anything is.  Not James, who despite his issues with Pundit, still spends a hell of a lot of time here and contributes a lot to the RPG discussion here.  But some high-minded little pissant who's only here to start shit, and will promptly disappear again as soon as he realizes the drama's over?  Yeah, I can do without that, thanks.

I could level the same at you, it's not like you show your head here much.  But you made a funny in that RPGnet thread, so I'll leave you alone.  ;)


I don't contribute a lot, either, but I lurk constantly.  I enjoy the site.  I have just as much right to be a part of the site as someone who participates in inane chatter and as a result has a few thousand posts to their credit (not you specifically, I have no idea what you typically post).  So, in  your opinion, because I don't have a high post count, my opinion of the site and its dealings are fuck-all?

Come down off the pedistal, man, you're showing your ass.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 06:37:55 PM
Quote from: RooksGambit
I don't contribute a lot, either, but I lurk constantly.  I enjoy the site.  I have just as much right to be a part of the site as someone who participates in inane chatter and as a result has a few thousand posts to their credit (not you specifically, I have no idea what you typically post).  So, in  your opinion, because I don't have a high post count, my opinion of the site and its dealings are fuck-all?

Come down off the pedistal, man, you're showing your ass.

If you wanna look for excuses to be offended, then by all means, have at.  But you could at least stop to consider that maybe what I was saying really was just directed at the person I was talking about and no one else, instead of choosing to read a generalization where none was present.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Sacrificial Lamb on June 13, 2007, 07:10:42 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
If you wanna look for excuses to be offended, then by all means, have at.  But you could at least stop to consider that maybe what I was saying really was just directed at the person I was talking about and no one else, instead of choosing to read a generalization where none was present.


Yeah, whatthefuckever. :mad: You still gave the vibe that those of us who don't have a post count in the thousands don't even matter. The little guy counts too. :mad:

By the way, Arcane, plenty of your posts are about fighting with someone over various topics, rather than purely about rpgs, so you might wanna give THAT some thought. Furthermore, I don't know why you keep harping on Pundit's "fascist moderation". I guess I'm just not seeing it. Sure, he's unnecessarily combative, but he avoids banning, and gets people talking.

Even though I'm here to stay, I think I'm gonna give those Animalball guys a visit. They seem okay to me. Hey, they managed to get their website name censored on RPGnet, so surely they must be doing something right...! :mischief:
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 07:16:04 PM
Quote
Yeah, whatthefuckever.  You still gave the vibe that those of us who don't have a post count in the thousands don't even matter. The little guy counts too.


You brought your own issues to the table, and they have nothing to do with what I said.  I'm not gonna apoligize because someone decides to read things into my words that aren't there.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Koltar on June 13, 2007, 07:20:14 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
Except that Pundit routinely makes even the gaming threads about ideology and politics, and even trots this site out regularly as some kind of personal political statement.



 Right ....So what ?

 I can name at least THREE others that do the same thing.
You included at times.

 Not a a Big Fucking deal.

- Ed C.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Hackmastergeneral on June 13, 2007, 07:27:38 PM
Glad to see the freedom afforded here allows J Arcane to let out his inner dickhead.

Enjoyed his posts on RPG.net, one of the guys I enjoyed communicating with.  I'm not the biggest fan of Pundit - specifically his views on Swine and gaming, although he seems a decent enough bloke outside that - but man; chip, shoulder, brush it off.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Brimshack on June 13, 2007, 07:30:52 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
Yeah, except that what I said from the beginning was that Free Speech would be absolutely valued here, but disruption of the site itself would not be tolerated.  I NEVER promised that no one would ever be banned, in fact I've said multiple times since the very beginning of this site that I am fairly certain that sooner or later someone will get banned. My certainty of this is because I knew that one or more people who want nothing good for this site would try to hide behind "free speech" as a way to do things that actually disrupted or endangered the functioning of this site itself, and I wanted to be perfectly clear from the beginning that this would not be allowed. Neither will cyber-stalking; as in direct and repeated personal attacks on someone that include threadcrapping and non-topical posts made only to annoy.  I can think of several posters who could be considered to be doing that very thing to me right now, but have been excessively lenient of that against my person in particular just to make sure that Free Speech was given as much leeway as possible.

In other words, this site's practice of free speech doesn't mean that posters should be allowed to do things to harm the site (ie. "yelling fire in a crowded theatre"), or be repeatedly and consistently abusive of other posters just because; not even against me.

RPGPundit


So, free speech can be observed up to a point. Fair enough. The problem as I see it is a certain lack of clarity. You make some very doctrinaire statements to the effect that free speech is absolute, and you make some statements to the effect that abusive or disruptive behavior won't be allowed. What you don't do (perhaps because this would facilitate rule inflation?) is tell us how that line will be drawn. In short, it looks very much like you are trying to achieve a balance by declaring allegience to two categorically opposed values and telling us very little about how the two will actually play out. This ambiguity leaves a lot of room for selective enforcement. So, it boils down to a very personal judgement call, one made without any real established guidelines. Fair enough again, I think that's perfectly in keeping with the approach of the forum. But it does cloud the distinction between official sanction and personal animosity, and it does mean that some of the rhetoric is misplaced. This isn't really free speech; it's a tenuous liberty granted at your largess.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 07:31:28 PM
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral
Glad to see the freedom afforded here allows J Arcane to let out his inner dickhead.

Enjoyed his posts on RPG.net, one of the guys I enjoyed communicating with.  I'm not the biggest fan of Pundit - specifically his views on Swine and gaming, although he seems a decent enough bloke outside that - but man; chip, shoulder, brush it off.
And the dogpile continues, with a real RPGnet regular for old times sake.

Come on, man, I dig you too, and more importantly, I expect better from you.

SP has pulled this same act before, and I wasn't just going to sit back and let the arsehole turn on me just because he wasn't having enough fun goading Pundit anymore.  

Apparently however, I have failed, because all my "calling bullshit" has done is given the troll what he wants, more flames.  For which I WILL apologize.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: David R on June 13, 2007, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: Koltar


 I can name at least THREE others that do the same thing.
You included at times.



Name them. I mean the Pundit is extremely disruptive when it comes to discussing these issues. Are these three as disruptive as him ? Out of no where it's "fucking Swine" or "nanny state" or "pc bullshit" etc ...so seriously, name them.

Regards,
David R
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Koltar on June 13, 2007, 08:28:57 PM
Davey,
 Thats TOO easy :

 Black Flag, Pseudophedrine, yourself, J. Arcane, droog and sometimes JimBobOz...and oh yeah - Koltar.

 ...and yeah Pundit mentions his politics mixed with gaming stuff too.

 Big whooppy-doo.

 If "politics" is part of how Pundit approaches his RPG stuff - then fine, but I really don't think it is. (others appear much more "guilty" of letting their politics invadse their gaming modes.)

 His politics and mine don't really mesh from what I can tell - but so what.
 Pretty sure I could still game with the guy at a table.

 As for the site here - He appears to be doing his best to be fair, just using a lot of cusswords as adjectives at times.


- Ed C.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RedFox on June 13, 2007, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
And the dogpile continues, with a real RPGnet regular for old times sake.

Come on, man, I dig you too, and more importantly, I expect better from you.

SP has pulled this same act before, and I wasn't just going to sit back and let the arsehole turn on me just because he wasn't having enough fun goading Pundit anymore.  

Apparently however, I have failed, because all my "calling bullshit" has done is given the troll what he wants, more flames.  For which I WILL apologize.


For what it's worth, I rather agree with your main point about Pundit.

However, your rhetoric has been...  flawed, at the least.  You made an ad hominem against Paul, inadvertently sniping lurkers in the process.  You're coming off rather shrilly, which is undermining your point.

I'm not sure why, even.  Usually I find myself nodding respectfully to what you have to say about things.  But in this thread, even agreeing with you, I end up shaking my head instead.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: shewolf on June 13, 2007, 08:58:16 PM
Quote from: Werekoala
Oo! Oo! Pick me!

*starts to pet the koala*

Wait...you're not gonna bite are you? I'd prefer to howl at the moon, not eat leaves that don't grow in the states.... :p

WRT gaming - I don't have much to say about it.... I understand the rules, and what is there to say? Ooooh, Lemme tell you about my Drizzt-wannabe! Xianra Sikaani Du'Soaross, of the house Du' Soaross, 10th house of Ched Nasad. She doesn't use scimitars, though. *stops before the laughing drowns her out* Seriously, there's not that much for me to say....I rarely make house rules, so that's out. *shrug*

EDIT: Arcane, you do seem a bit freer to unmoderate yourself here. But I haven't decided if you're getting flak for good reason or not...I know you're a good guy at RPGnet...
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 09:03:24 PM
Quote from: RedFox
For what it's worth, I rather agree with your main point about Pundit.

However, your rhetoric has been...  flawed, at the least.  You made an ad hominem against Paul, inadvertently sniping lurkers in the process.  You're coming off rather shrilly, which is undermining your point.

I'm not sure why, even.  Usually I find myself nodding respectfully to what you have to say about things.  But in this thread, even agreeing with you, I end up shaking my head instead.

My comments toward SP boil down to the fact that, despite what Pundit would like to believe about me, I do not have any desire to "destroy" this site, and I have no desire to play a part with someone who actually does seem to have more interest in disrupting things and doesn't really give a shit about what happens here.  As soon as this latest big bout of drama dies, he'll disappear off to Animalball or wherever he can get his Internet Drama fix, until the next time he sees a prime topic to stir the pot here.  It's happened before, it'll happen again.

My commentary on Pundit's behavior have everything to do with the fact that excepting him, I like it here, and I like a lot of the people here, and would like the site to be the best that it can be.  

I felt it important to distance myself from someone who has no such interests in mind, especially after he decided to switch tracks and start sniping at me instead.  

If you're running a game store, whose complaints are you more likely to listen to, the guy who comes in every day because he loves the place and jsut wants it to be the best that it can be, or the guy who shows up once a month, bitches at all the staff, and then promptly disappears?
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: droog on June 13, 2007, 09:07:32 PM
Quote from: shewolf
Wait...you're not gonna bite are you? I'd prefer to howl at the moon, not eat leaves that don't grow in the states.... :p

Actually, I understand that there are imported eucalypts in California.

But koalas are stinking, aggressive creatures. Look out for the claws.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: hgjs on June 13, 2007, 09:13:37 PM
Quote from: RedFox
For what it's worth, I rather agree with your main point about Pundit.

However, your rhetoric has been...  flawed, at the least.  You made an ad hominem against Paul, inadvertently sniping lurkers in the process.


The post in question:

Quote from: J Arcane
My only point regarding Paul is basically, "Who the fuck are you then"?

It's not like the guy exactly spends a lot of time here. Mostly he seems to just pop up whenever there's some big new drama, and tries to fan the flames as best he can. When he wasn't getting a rise out of one side of the argument, then he turns around to the other side and starts with the sniping.

Fuck him. What gives him the right to criticize anything on this site, when he doesn't even bother to hang around except when there's OMG DRAMA! to exploit for his own entertainment?

THAT is "disruption" if anything is. Not James, who despite his issues with Pundit, still spends a hell of a lot of time here and contributes a lot to the RPG discussion here. But some high-minded little pissant who's only here to start shit, and will promptly disappear again as soon as he realizes the drama's over? Yeah, I can do without that, thanks.


If the criticism was "you don't post much," then yes, it would apply to all lurkers.

However, it seems clear to me that the criticism is, "you only come here to stir up or participate in drama."
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RedFox on June 13, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
I'm fuzzy and I don't bite.  :)
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RedFox on June 13, 2007, 09:17:12 PM
Quote from: hgjs
The post in question:



If the criticism was "you don't post much," then yes, it would apply to all lurkers.

However, it seems clear to me that the criticism is, "you only come here to stir up or participate in drama."


It's still an ad hominem.  He's villifying Paul rather than either ignoring him or addressing his post.  That kind of thing just comes off bad, which is (my impression anyway) why J Arcane is taking so much flak in the thread right now.

He's usually a much better debater.  Which is why I have a good deal of respect for him as a poster.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 09:22:49 PM
Quote from: hgjs
The post in question:



If the criticism was "you don't post much," then yes, it would apply to all lurkers.

However, it seems clear to me that the criticism is, "you only come here to stir up or participate in drama."

Exactly.  Thank you.

And RedFox, my response is directly salient to the post I responded to, because if he actualyl cared to hang around here, he'd know, as everyone else does, that the approach of the moderation here has generally been more a simple public addressing of the problem verbally.  Even with Nox, there were shit tons of attempts to directly address his behavior verbally.

Pundit's one solid point that I cannot refute is that by and large he doesn't really do anything but talk, but that talk carries a lot of weight, because talk by and large IS the form that the moderation around here takes, and further, that this latest event with James is a potential example of what I see as a future problem when he more regularly starts moving beyond just talk.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: droog on June 13, 2007, 09:24:04 PM
Quote from: RedFox
I'm fuzzy and I don't bite.  :)
Yeah, but foxes stink worse than koalas.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RedFox on June 13, 2007, 09:30:23 PM
Quote from: droog
Yeah, but foxes stink worse than koalas.


Speciest lies!

Besides, I use strawberry shampoo daily.

Quote from: J Arcane
Pundit's once solid point that I cannot refute is that by and large he doesn't really do anything but talk, but that talk carries a lot of weight, and further, that this latest event with James is a potential example of what I see as a future problem when he more regularly starts moving beyond this talk.


I must've missed "this event with James," which seems to be all the rage in this thread.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 09:32:02 PM
Quote from: RedFox
Speciest lies!

Besides, I use strawberry shampoo daily.



I must've missed "this event with James," which seems to be all the rage in this thread.
James McMurray got banned from posting in Off-Topic.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: droog on June 13, 2007, 09:33:32 PM
Quote from: RedFox
Speciest lies!

Fuck off back to Foxland, brushboy.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: RedFox on June 13, 2007, 09:48:16 PM
Quote from: droog
Fuck off back to Foxland, brushboy.

Don't make me bust out with the kittens and pie.  Or the kitten pies.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: droog on June 13, 2007, 09:49:32 PM
Quote from: RedFox
Don't make me bust out with the kittens and pie.  Or the kitten pies.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Thanatos02 on June 13, 2007, 10:52:47 PM
Take it to Tangency.

My bad, wrong site. :p

I kid. But, really, I don't agree with Pundit's take (on the kind of person I am), but I think he's doing a good job as a mod. I come here because I like the site. I'm glad I won't get banned for calling someone a dick if I want to.

The downside of that is, sometimes I call someone a dick. Sometimes it's Pundit. It's not anything personal, Pundit. I don't follow anyone around and try to cause trouble. I guess the biggest exception seems to be JimBob right now, and it's not like it's a vendetta or anything. He's just doing some things in threads I'm in that I take exception to.

I hope people arn't following Pundit around to slag him. That'd say more about them then it would about Pundt.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Serious Paul on June 13, 2007, 11:14:09 PM
A shame J Arcane that you know so much about me, in fact more than even I do. It's amazing your insights into me, and if any of them were remotely close to true I'd be creeped out at out how eerily accurate they are.

But it's all crap so mostly I'm unimpressed.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: EssEmAech on June 13, 2007, 11:33:03 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
If you wanna look for excuses to be offended, then by all means, have at.  But you could at least stop to consider that maybe what I was saying really was just directed at the person I was talking about and no one else, instead of choosing to read a generalization where none was present.



Hey man, that's cool.  On the one time we've interacted before  you were completely civil.  What you posted DID have a ring of "your opinion is pretty worthless to me if you haven't contributed, post-wise, heavily to this site"  With your clarification, and another read through, I see where I may have taken you too broadly, and I apologize.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 13, 2007, 11:38:54 PM
Quote from: RooksGambit
Hey man, that's cool.  On the one time we've interacted before  you were completely civil.  What you posted DID have a ring of "your opinion is pretty worthless to me if you haven't contributed, post-wise, heavily to this site"  With your clarification, and another read through, I see where I may have taken you too broadly, and I apologize.
No problem.  I really got no problem at all with lurkers. They are the forgotten audience of the Internet message board.  I've been the lurker on more than a few sites, but inevitably I eventually wind up finding something to comment on, and by that point the hoks are usually in, and then I don't shut up.  ;)
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 14, 2007, 12:01:35 AM
Quote from: droog
Actually, I understand that there are imported eucalypts in California.

But koalas are stinking, aggressive creatures. Look out for the claws.


Hell yeah, I'm ferocious! Just ask Hackmastergeneral! :)

Actually, this is a nickname I've had for over 20 years, IRL, if you can imagine it. The old saying was that by the light of the full moon, I turn fuzzy and fall asleep.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Serious Paul on June 14, 2007, 12:20:52 AM
Quote from: J Arcane
My comments toward SP boil down to the fact that, despite what Pundit would like to believe about me, I do not have any desire to "destroy" this site, and I have no desire to play a part with someone who actually does seem to have more interest in disrupting things and doesn't really give a shit about what happens here.  As soon as this latest big bout of drama dies, he'll disappear off to Animalball or wherever he can get his Internet Drama fix, until the next time he sees a prime topic to stir the pot here.  It's happened before, it'll happen again.


Sigh I wasn't going to do this, but allow me to say a few things. This is bullshit for a number of reasons.

I knwo you've erected your gaming cross, and climbed on so that all of us inners can see what a magnificent GAMER you are but that's crap,and you're a pretty shitty person for trying to do this.

I am a gamer. I have gamed for almost 23 years now. In that time I have never went a single year with out running a game. In fact there have been very months that I haven't gamed, both online and more importantly (and to my great pleasure) in real life.

I may not be the hallowed GAMER you seem to think you are, but I enjoy the hobby. I support it strongly: I purchase game materials on a frequent basis, and in some cases (Like Shadowrun) I own copies of books numbering into the triplicates. (Or int he case of frequently used books by my group I will purchase upwards of five or six copies.) I watch crappy RPG movies. I buy dice. I buy gaming books for presents for my group.

You may think gaming exists independent of the real world, and other things but that's bullshit of the highest order. My games are inspired by many things: comic books, movies, music, popular culture, history, politics, etc... Which is why I like to discuss all of these things.

I have posted exactly one disruptive thread here. One. I have never intentionally caused problems in any Game related thread. I have never once disrupted one of these threads with off topic commentary. I am in fact a model poster-I post when I have time, when I have something to say, and because I earnestly believe in what I say.

I don't claim to always be correct, or the most educated guy in the room, or even think that I am infallible, which seems more than you're capable if your posts are the judge of whom you are. I don't try to tell others how they should post, or why. I care deeply that this site, like the others I participate be as free as possible respecting the one value I prize above all others: Freedom of Expression.

Perhaps you don't value it, or perhaps you think you're values are separate from your posting style-I can not possibly know the answer to that, but I'll thank you kindly to get the fuck off my dick.

I don't have to meet your bullshit standards, I am not any less a part of this hobby than anyone else here is, let alone you. I have written gaming supplements, purchased literally thousands of dollars worth of materials, read hundreds of thousands of hours worth of game related materials, played consistently, and had fun doing. Take your brand of bullshit and stick it up your self righteous, self serving ass.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 14, 2007, 12:23:45 AM
Wow.  That's a whole lot of words spent on shit that doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with anything I said.  

Bravo.  I congratulate you on your ability to get no point across whatsoever, yet somehow still get up in arms about it.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Thanatos02 on June 14, 2007, 10:40:42 AM
Quote from: Werekoala

Actually, this is a nickname I've had for over 20 years, IRL, if you can imagine it. The old saying was that by the light of the full moon, I turn fuzzy and fall asleep.


>GASP!< Terrifying!
:haw:
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Grimjack on June 14, 2007, 02:44:28 PM
Pundit didn't stop being who he is when he took over this site.  He uses the same rhetoric, name-calling and all, that he always has and there isn't anything wrong with that.  He has never tried to force his opinions on anyone and whether you agree with him or not he tends to provoke interesting debate. In my view he has dished it out and proved he can take it.

The problem I see is that some people don't separate Pundit as a poster with him as an Admin and would love to push him into banning someone just for a "gotcha" moment where they can claim all his free-speech talk is bullshit.

Looking at Pundit as Admin, he has been extremely fair IMO and has been true to his pledge that he won't sanction people for opinions or harsh rhetoric, only for disruptions to the site.  You can debate whether or not James or even Nox were actually disrupting the site (I'm not sure on this myself) but I don't think it is fair to act as if Pundit didn't have a good faith reason for thinking that was their intent.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Bradford C. Walker on June 14, 2007, 06:39:50 PM
The Pundit has my confidence with regard to running this site.  When this is no longer the case, I shall make that known.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: jdrakeh on June 14, 2007, 09:17:49 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
Now, when that moderator voice is constantly attacking anyone who shows the slightest sign of wrong think, interrogating users like it's the House Subcommittee on Un-American Activities, accusing everyone and anyone who disagrees with him or he sees as a threat to his authority of "conspiracy", constantly waving around the "You should be lucky I haven't banned you!" flag, or the "You should be lucky I didn't completely ban you, I 'only' fucked with your account" he waves after he's done with whatever petty shit he's pulling lately, or the "public consultations" that he makes clear have zero fucking effect on any of his decisions, and only serve to act as yet more threats to users he doesn't like.


Exactly. I think that Pundit is probably the largest hypocrite that I've ever seen online. He wants to damn "The Swine" for engaging in all of the exact same behavior that he does. True, he's not engaging in that behavior to promote arthaus roleplay, though he's very much dedicated to attacking, belittling, and abusing any who don't do things the way that he thinks they should be done. HE HAS A WHOLE FORUM DEDICATED TO IT (not theRPGsite but his personal forum hosted here).

He's an Asshole Elite.

That said, he's actually done a pretty good job of being a moderator, specifically because he doesn't do much moderation. When he does, he comes dangerously close to ruining his good record, really. I think, as others have said, the best thing that Pundit could do for theRPGsite is remove himself from its day to day operations.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Imperator on June 15, 2007, 01:25:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
I'm starting to get fucking sick of this. Like sick in a deep, penetrating sense to my very bone-tiredness.

I've run this site for 9 months or so now, and in that time I HAVE BANNED NO ONE.
I've had to use sanctions against exactly 2 people.
I've had to warn a couple more.

And EVERY FUCKING DAY I put up with the usual suspects, attacking and insulting me at every turn on this forum. Whatever I post, the usual bunch are there, insulting and lying about me.
And every Admin decision I make, they call me a fascist, and claim that this board is headed toward tyranny.  WHEN IN FACT, ITS THE LEAST-MODERATED BOARD OF ITS SIZE IN THE ENTIRE HOBBY.

So here's my deal: are you happy with what I've been doing as Admin here? Do you think that those who are attacking me are the ones who really have theRPGsite's and free speech's best interests at heart? Or is it me who does?

Do any of you really believe that JArcane or James McMurray or Jimbob would be better admins who would value and defend free speech like I have, who would put up with the abuse I put up with every fucking day, and wouldn't just have gone on a fucking banning-spree by now?

Here's your chance to convince me that there are still people on this site who support what I'm fighting for. Otherwise, what the fuck is the point of me carrying on with it?

RPGPundit
My 2 cents.

I think that you're doing a good work as admin, and you really do a good work on keeping the site alive. I appreciate your determination to stick to your guns, and that we all can call you on your bullshit.

I don't think that you're heading to tiranny. I think that your online persona is a fucking paranoid nutjob, and frankly put: no one's out there going to get you. Or trying and planning how to disrupt this site. Actually, most people don't know / don't give a shit about this site.

As I said, you are doing a good work. DOn't let your paranoia get the best of you.

And no, I'm not going to give you the bullshit of "you volunteered to do this, so fuck you and suck it up." I only hope that this gives you a better understanding of what being a mod means :) And I say this seriously.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Balbinus on June 15, 2007, 05:30:01 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
are you happy with what I've been doing as Admin here?


Yes

Quote from: RPGPundit
Do any of you really believe that JArcane or James McMurray or Jimbob would be better admins...


No, I clipped it because I don't have a view on their tendency to banning sprees, but I think by and large you do a great job.

Bear in mind, many of us contributed funds to keep the site going, that really is all you need to know about people supporting what you're doing.

Talk is free, contributing money cost me.  If I didn't think this was working well, I wouldn't have bothered.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Arminius on June 15, 2007, 06:08:03 PM
Yeah, I think you do a fine job as an admin.

You do make things harder on yourself, and possibly detract from the success of the site, by being so unrestrained in expressing yourself. By that I simply mean that people who'd be great contributors are frankly scared off, and some people do disrupt the site by trying to be "rebels" instead of just ignoring you. Maybe there are side benefits too in that some blowhards also give this place a wide berth, but I think your position as owner/admin amplifies the negative effect relative to how things would be if you were just another poster. This is purely one of those things that proves the weakness of human nature--the triumph of appearances and psychology over rationality, which then arguably makes it rational to concern oneself with appearances and psychology instead of substance. Whatever.

All I have to add is that you're probably letting some of the "rebels" get to you more than you should, which makes you seem paranoid.

The success of your overall management of the site is best measured in the number & quality of discussions going on here. Personally I think that's gone down a bit in the last week or so--probably because we've just had too much talk about "Swine/Who's a Swine?/Are there Swine?/Prove to me that there are Swine!", which both sucks up attention from more worthy topics and may be turning people off. Really: to anyone who cares about the site, we should tone it down & give it a rest. The best way to "win the war" (such as it is) is to maintain a healthy amount of actual game-related discussion independent of either "swinery" or obsession with the topic of "swinery" one way or the other.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Hackmastergeneral on June 15, 2007, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: J Arcane
And the dogpile continues, with a real RPGnet regular for old times sake.

Come on, man, I dig you too, and more importantly, I expect better from you.

SP has pulled this same act before, and I wasn't just going to sit back and let the arsehole turn on me just because he wasn't having enough fun goading Pundit anymore.  

Apparently however, I have failed, because all my "calling bullshit" has done is given the troll what he wants, more flames.  For which I WILL apologize.


Dude, not dogpiling, really.  But man, you have to see - you ARE coming off as something of a dick.  I probably am too, but what the fuck.

I NEVER ONCE got the "dickhead" vibe from you on BP - maybe this place brings out the worst in some people, ya know?  Its sure as shit brought out the worst in me on occasion.  But then, its the end of the shcool year, and marking and exams are over my head, and I REALLY need a full nights sleep without worrying about where I'm going to teach next eyar - IF I'll be anywhere teaching next year...blah.

But I really don't want to insult you at all.  Should have pulled the "dick" thing back, as I do really have fond memories of your time on BP.  Cheers mate.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 15, 2007, 08:51:05 PM
Quote from: Hackmastergeneral
Dude, not dogpiling, really.  But man, you have to see - you ARE coming off as something of a dick.  I probably am too, but what the fuck.

I NEVER ONCE got the "dickhead" vibe from you on BP - maybe this place brings out the worst in some people, ya know?  Its sure as shit brought out the worst in me on occasion.  But then, its the end of the shcool year, and marking and exams are over my head, and I REALLY need a full nights sleep without worrying about where I'm going to teach next eyar - IF I'll be anywhere teaching next year...blah.

But I really don't want to insult you at all.  Should have pulled the "dick" thing back, as I do really have fond memories of your time on BP.  Cheers mate.

No worries man, I just have a sore spot when it comes to disingenuous and dishonest behavior, and SP hit the nerve.  My inability to shut the hell up and let people get away with that kind of crap had a lot to do with me getting banned from TBP.  

And hey, he's gone and proved my point well better than I ever could have, so it's all good.  Now I can just sit back and watch.  ;)
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on June 15, 2007, 10:34:43 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit
I'm starting to get fucking sick of this. Like sick in a deep, penetrating sense to my very bone-tiredness.[...]

And EVERY FUCKING DAY I put up with the usual suspects, attacking and insulting me at every turn on this forum. Whatever I post, the usual bunch are there, insulting and lying about me.
And every Admin decision I make, they call me a fascist, and claim that this board is headed toward tyranny. [...]

Do any of you really believe that JArcane or James McMurray or Jimbob would be better admins who would value and defend free speech like I have, who would put up with the abuse I put up with every fucking day, and wouldn't just have gone on a fucking banning-spree by now?[...]

I did not say that you were a fascist, or that this board was headed toward tyranny.

I simply said that racist fuckers like Dominus Nox should be banned, and that people like James McMurray shouldn't be sanctioned for stirring shit unless they actually are doing so. This is because I don't believe in free speech on an rpg board; I believe in free speech about roleplaying here on this rpg board. The rest is just cosmetic, and not really relevant. It can detract from therpgsite (like racist and sexist stuff, putting off potential members), but it can't really add to it (having intellectual debates about the existence of God may be interesting, but won't add anything rpg-wise). Since it can detract from but not add to the place, I would be more of an arsehole about moderating it. And I would certainly be called a fascist, and a tyrant, and so on.

Take for example this thread. There's a question about RPGPundit's moderation style, and there are a heap of responses about whether people personally like or dislike RPGPundit. It's irrelevant shit which does not address the question. I would prescribe "stay on-topic." For which I would no doubt be called fascist, tyrannical and so on. I would be delighted to oppress people by encouraging them to keep their comments at least within spitting distance of the topic at hand. After all, if you want to say that Poster X is a cunt, you can always start a new thread.

As an admin, I absolutely would have banned some posters by now. However, I would have been more often prescriptive than proscriptive. For example, rather than banning J_Arcane I would PM him to say that he should talk more about rpgs, and threadcrap and abuse people less.

Criticism of decisions you make is part of the job of being able to make decisions, RPGPundit. If you don't like that, then step down as an admin, and then you won't have to make any decisions. Otherwise you'll start to sound suspiciously like the admin/mods of a certain other rpg forum who are endlessly complaining that their volunteer efforts are unappreciated. Of course it's unappreciated. That's the nature of anyone who's in a position to get things done and make decisions - everyone will complain when they think you're doing something wrong, no-one will praise you when they think you're doing something right. If you don't like it, quit, because it's not going to change, it's just human nature.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: shewolf on June 16, 2007, 01:44:33 AM
Quote from: J Arcane
My inability to shut the hell up and let people get away with that kind of crap had a lot to do with me getting banned from TBP.  


Wha? When'd this happen? Permaban or a vacation?
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: J Arcane on June 16, 2007, 01:52:41 AM
Quote from: shewolf
Wha? When'd this happen? Permaban or a vacation?
I was permabanned.  It is somewhat complicated, but boils down to me being too vocal about Darren's asinine behavior, thus getting me branded a troublemaker, coupled with what they saw as a tendency towards "vigilante moderating", in other words, calling out trolls.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: shewolf on June 16, 2007, 06:06:07 AM
*blink* Well shit. I wondered wtf had happened to ya...
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 16, 2007, 11:24:30 AM
Quote from: J Arcane
I was permabanned.  It is somewhat complicated, but boils down to me being too vocal about Darren's asinine behavior, thus getting me branded a troublemaker, coupled with what they saw as a tendency towards "vigilante moderating", in other words, calling out trolls.

I actually had the effrontery to report Darren, and said so in the open, and he basically MOCKED the idea (can you imagine?) essentially saying "good luck with all that".

:rolleyes:

(Edit: I originally used a word I think I just made up - termity - for effrontery. It sounded good, but I thought "does that mean what I think it means" - so I looked it up and its not a real word (in English at least) - WTF? I know I've heard and/or seen that word used before... anyone else? Or am I'm just getting senile?)
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Drew on June 16, 2007, 11:31:19 AM
I think "temerity" is the word you're looking for.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 16, 2007, 11:38:48 AM
Oh, thanks. Phew, thought I was going crazy, but I just can't spell for shit apparently. :)  Looks like effrontery is a better word in the context anyway.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Hackmastergeneral on June 16, 2007, 02:47:01 PM
And I think its "A-ffrontery", just to throw wood on the fire.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Werekoala on June 16, 2007, 04:20:10 PM
Nope! Ha!
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: King of Old School on June 17, 2007, 04:35:12 PM
I think Pundit is doing a fine job as admin -- in fact, he's done a lot to change my opinion of him for the better through his administration of TheRPGSite.

That said, the people Pundit called out in the OP are all being significantly less disruptive of the site than Pundit himself (as "Nisarg") was on virtually every other RPG forum on the 'net before he was banned, so his complaints come off as more than a little hypocritical and indicative of a TBP-worthy martyr complex.

KoOS
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: GoOrange on June 17, 2007, 05:09:18 PM
I've only been on this site a short while, but the moderation seems fine to me.

I've seen quite a few personal insults flung at Pundit without any kind of "moderator" retaliation like banning - which says a lot in my book.

The only evidence of "moderator" activities I've seen lately is that a thread I started got moved. In retrospect, I definitely should have posted the thread here instead of the general roleplaying, but Pundit let it run a good course there anyway and only moved it after we'd beaten it to death.

So certainly no complaints on my end.
Title: Who really cares about Free Speech and TheRPGsite's welfare?
Post by: Zalmoxis on June 19, 2007, 11:03:15 AM
Pundit, keep up the good work. You have my support, even when you're a blasted asshole. :D