I like how Kyle is, as usual, focusing on the people arguing the debate and trying to bash them for kicks and making himself sound smarter, rather than the debate itself.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditPost-modernism has nothing to do with this in the context of History.  All historians today admit that there is inherent bias in the telling of history, and bias inherent in historical sources, and that its the job of the historian to work around that; and that understanding has nothing to do with the influence of post-modernism. In fact, modernism itself was a reaction that idea (proving it existed long before POST-modernism came along), trying to argue that you could somehow struggle to reach a state of "scientific" objectivity in the study of history.

What is the main difference between post-modernist historians and other historians is that the post-modernist historians believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to even approach truth in historical study.  Instead, everything is opinion, and the exercise of history is really something that is only useful as semantic exercise to support whatever modern sentiment or ideology you wish to promote.

As I already said, all historians will admit that accounts of history will depend on one's view -- the difference is in how you approach it.  It is not like modernism invented the idea of believing in minimizing bias -- they just had a different spin on previous efforts.  But even in histories written prior to the advent of modernism (i.e. 19th century and earlier), I've never seen anything more than token self-reflection on their context.  In practice, both modernists and prior historians strove to make their histories unbiased, as I said before, without seriously admitting or analyzing the agenda of their accounts.  

Where I know about most is the history of science.  In practice, when I read history of science books written in the 1950s and earlier, I find that they are generally promotions that are often blatantly revisionist to make heroes of the defined great scientists, and explaining their mistakes using the hindsight of later discoveries.  Based on your position, I would think that histories of the 1950s and earlier would be more-or-less accurate, while histories written after the popularity of post-modernism would be filled with blatant falsehoods and more biased.  In practice, I found the opposite.

I have certainly seen "more bias" in history works after post-modernism. In many cases they choose to ignore any element of fact or even any area of consideration that doesn't fit with their desired understanding of what happened or the reasons why it might have happened; and in many cases have attempted to blatantly superimpose modern issues and agendas into historical work.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditand in many cases have attempted to blatantly superimpose modern issues and agendas into historical work.

Yes, I have seen that, especially in history and literature.

It makes me so furiously angry that fire shoots out my ass.

However, we used to simply call it "bad history".

I have given more thought to this complex matter, in light of which I shall extend and refine my observations to date.

The definitive list of what shall henceforth be known as Pundy Goes Apeshit Subjects (PGAS) would have to include:

- Green Ronin
- women
- Foucault
- R. Edwards
- gay persons
- relativism, VERY broadly conceived

The Apeshit-o-Meter will go off the scale when one or several PGASs cluster around a d20 game. The psycho-analytically inclined will call such occurrences "overdetermined"; for our part we shall refer them as Apeshit Nodes (ANs).

Blue Rose is a formidable AN under this description: gay person designs d20 game geared to female sensibilities; Pundy engages in protracted internet war with female GR employee.

All this is history. However, like Dark Matter in physics, more dramatic applications of the present model are at least theoretically imaginable, and are henceforth designated Major Apeshit Nodes (MAN).

For example.

Among the papers of the late Michel Foucault is found the draft for a roleplaying game.

This game, subsequently translated into English by Green Ronin and finalized by Steve Kenson, uses the d20 system and is set in a modern-day variant of Blue Rose: namely, the pre-HIV San Francisco sauna scene, in which a bunch of lesbian Amazons (the only admissible character class) is vicariously exploring their sexuality, in the process creating meaningful stories of eroticism and ritual castration that are subsequently praised for their therapeutic value by V. Baker in a glowing review on the Forge.

Should this ever happen, I presage one of two consequences:

1) Space-time will bend, annihilating us all;
2) New Postmodernism thread on therpgsite.

Quote from: Old GeezerYes, I have seen that, especially in history and literature.

It makes me so furiously angry that fire shoots out my ass.

However, we used to simply call it "bad history".

Well that's just it: Postmodernism excuses bad history. Because suddenly you're not just being a crappy historian, instead you're "speaking through another perspective" or some bullshit like that.

RPGPundit

Amusing, Pierce, but I wouldn't include either women or "gay people" (huh?) on there.
Did you say the latter because of Foucault? I mean, there's a serious difference between someone being gay and someone being a BDSM fanatic with a suicide/snuff fetish going around giving people AIDS, right?

As for Kenson or Snead, its not their being gay/bisexual that I have issue with, its their being smug about it, and trying to push that smugness into the books they write.

I would include feminists and collectivists, though; and new agey hippie-wiccans. And the fucking pretentious goth poseurs.
White Wolf.
Warhammer 40k (though that could fall under Green Ronin in general)
D&D 4e, more recently.

I'm sure there are others.
What does any of this have to do with defending Post-modernism, though? Have you all just basically admitted defeat and you are now moving on to trying to do cheap sour-grapes insults on the guy that beat you?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI have given more thought to this complex matter, in light of which I shall extend and refine my observations to date.

You win everything there is to win.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI have given more thought to this complex matter, in light of which I shall extend and refine my observations to date.

Sir, you are a genius.

Question: Would the "fact" all women are whores be PGAS or an AN?

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Bill