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Author Topic: Were the Jedi celibate?  (Read 3493 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2020, 05:41:50 PM »
Quote from: Lurkndog;1129234
Except they don't, in any way, do that. And the Force is explicitly defined as having a light side in addition to the dark side.

The dark side is a ton stronger and has all tons of powers the light side does not possess. Sorry yoda but the dark side IS more powerful.

Im not saying this was done out of intent or being well crafted. Im saying sloppiness and a tendency for repitition and uncreativity made the Star Wars universe a never ending war torn zone ravaged by darkside powers. Kinda like a more toned down 40K.

Not saying this is what I prefer either. Im just saying thats how it is in the sequels AND in the EU.

While the sequels are guilty of terrible writing, their worst ideas where accidentally stolen from the EU.

jhkim

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2020, 06:36:49 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
More broadly, they act to violently enforce the law, with no question of whether the law is wrong or right. The only exception to this, it seems, is if the law is by a Sith -- in which case they try to kill them. As Palpatine rose to power, they had some thought that it was a bad direction -- but they took no action against him. It wasn't until they learned he was a Sith that they acted. If he had just been a non-Sith bad guy, it's unclear when if ever they would have opposed his rule. Maybe they would have, but given that they took no action even to oppose slavery, he'd have to go very far for them to actively oppose him. They took wholeheartedly to owning a slave army and violently suppressing the Separatists, after all.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129304
The alternative is Jedi vigilantes without even the slight responsibility to the Republic that they had in the prequels.
Tatooine was outside the Republic. As peacekeepers for the Republic they had no juristicion there. Sending in a Jedi strike team to liberate all the slaves would not have ended slavery on Tatooine. They would have to annex Tatooine and enforce Republic law there.
Maybe the Jedi were in the wrong to place themselves (or to have been placed) in the role of peacekeepers for the Republic, but if not, then they would have no place supporting either the Republic or the Seperatists.
But the Jedi *did* liberate a slave from Tatooine. The council questioned whether it was a good idea to add the slave to their ranks as a new child soldier, but they didn't object to the illegality of liberating a slave. Though I expect if they had liberated a slave just to be good rather than to recruit a new child soldier, they would have gotten into more trouble.

Within our own history, both government officials and non-governmental organizations can and did act against slavery. Public figures spoke up against slavery, and urged others within their country to take steps against it - like economic sanctions against worlds engaging in slavery. Non-government organizations helped with the Underground Railroad, and organized resistance against slavery. If a government official were to be offered a slave army to take charge of, they could refuse to do so, and resign if they were forced to do so. For example, General David Hunter was an outspoken abolitionist even while he served before the Civil War.

As far as I can see, things could have gone better if the Jedi were either (1) regular soldiers with a basic sense of right and wrong; or (2) a non-governmental organization with a basic sense of right and wrong.


Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129304
But like I said, the prequels didn't have a clear vision of what the legalities of Jedi police actually meant. Can the Republic force the Jedi to kick out a corrupt member? Do they enforce petty laws, like littering and jaywalking? Are there departments that oversee Jedi enforcment of laws? None of this is covered and so we're left to speculate.
I agree that this was left unclear. But regardless of what is *legal*, there is the basic question about what is *moral*. And the Jedi didn't stand up for what was moral, and resist immoral laws -- except to fight the Sith.

Ratman_tf

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2020, 07:29:26 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129334
But the Jedi *did* liberate a slave from Tatooine. The council questioned whether it was a good idea to add the slave to their ranks as a new child soldier, but they didn't object to the illegality of liberating a slave. Though I expect if they had liberated a slave just to be good rather than to recruit a new child soldier, they would have gotten into more trouble.

Qui-Gonn won a slave. what he did after winning Anakin on a wager was his business. Cleig Larrs freed Shmi after purchasing her. Seems to happen often enough on Tatooine for it to be legal. Neither events ended the slave trade on Tatooine.

Quote
Within our own history, both government officials and non-governmental organizations can and did act against slavery. Public figures spoke up against slavery, and urged others within their country to take steps against it - like economic sanctions against worlds engaging in slavery. Non-government organizations helped with the Underground Railroad, and organized resistance against slavery. If a government official were to be offered a slave army to take charge of, they could refuse to do so, and resign if they were forced to do so. For example, General David Hunter was an outspoken abolitionist even while he served before the Civil War.

As far as I can see, things could have gone better if the Jedi were either (1) regular soldiers with a basic sense of right and wrong; or (2) a non-governmental organization with a basic sense of right and wrong.

I agree that this was left unclear. But regardless of what is *legal*, there is the basic question about what is *moral*. And the Jedi didn't stand up for what was moral, and resist immoral laws -- except to fight the Sith.

How much leverage could the Jedi exert on Tatooine to end the slave trade? What measures could the Republic have taken? How much trade exists between Tatooine and the Republic for them to levy sanctions?
Borka Morka's got a planetary plague to deal with, Naboo's been invaded by the Trade Federation, the damn Seperatists are demonstrating in front of the Senate again, the Coruscant Sanitation Union are on strike and garbage is piling up in the streets.
Tatooine isnt' even a member of the Republic, and the Senate takes years to decide on anything.
I guess they could send a strongly worded letter to the Hutts. I'm sure that would help.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2020, 08:04:29 PM »
In addition from what I get Tattoine lacks a real centralized government. There isn't a palace you bust down and say 'Naught Naughty!'

Its a culture. Its slave trade exists within its own borders. Stopping it would require a massive peacekeeping force because sanctions on the planet of bumfuckallistan would do nothing.

jhkim

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2020, 03:02:24 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129339
Qui-Gonn won a slave. what he did after winning Anakin on a wager was his business. Cleig Larrs freed Shmi after purchasing her. Seems to happen often enough on Tatooine for it to be legal. Neither events ended the slave trade on Tatooine.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129341
In addition from what I get Tattoine lacks a real centralized government. There isn't a palace you bust down and say 'Naught Naughty!'

Its a culture. Its slave trade exists within its own borders. Stopping it would require a massive peacekeeping force because sanctions on the planet of bumfuckallistan would do nothing.
First of all, the issue isn't just Tatooine. The clone army are a huge group of people abused as children, with no rights. The Jedi might not use the word "slave" for the troopers, but they accept that this is an army of disposable people with no rights that they use for their grunt work.

I guess the logic here is that it would be a really difficult task to stop slavery entirely -- either on Tatooine or more widely. That's true, but it was also true that in the real world, when slavery was entrenched, there were people who acted against it -- freeing slaves one at a time if necessary, and trying to turn free people against the practice. But the Jedi just go with the flow and don't have a problem with slavery.

I suppose that sort of fits. The Jedi are sort of "go with the flow" types. That actually also fits with later canon that once the Empire was established, the surviving Jedi (Yoda and Kenobi) weren't part of the Rebellion, but instead retired. Overthrowing the Empire would be a really difficult problem that would take many years to overcome, if it happened at all.

Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2020, 10:51:06 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129356
First of all, the issue isn't just Tatooine. The clone army are a huge group of people abused as children, with no rights. The Jedi might not use the word "slave" for the troopers, but they accept that this is an army of disposable people with no rights that they use for their grunt work.

What I really want to like about the prequels and what could have been empahsized more if Lucas had somebody forced him to do a second draft, is that this is the FALL of the Jedi.
The elements are already there, it just could have been stitched together into a cohesive whole.

The Jedi are arrogant and insular, and care more for beurocracy then people. In an attempt to become resistant to the darkside they instead become cold and distant and 'miss the forest for the trees'.
To the avarage person the Jedi are cold distant weirdos that rarely take a human perspective or can be friend or pals. They are seen more as somekind of cult then defenders. We follow the Jedi that are an exception to this, and they become increasingly perturbed but are powerless to stop it.

The movies have all these elements already just.....In unfinished and less conesive combinations. With some re-writes and a secondary writer it could be really great.

Lurkndog

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2020, 11:28:49 AM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129373
What I really want to like about the prequels and what could have been empahsized more if Lucas had somebody forced him to do a second draft, is that this is the FALL of the Jedi.
The elements are already there, it just could have been stitched together into a cohesive whole.

The Jedi are arrogant and insular, and care more for beurocracy then people. In an attempt to become resistant to the darkside they instead become cold and distant and 'miss the forest for the trees'.
To the avarage person the Jedi are cold distant weirdos that rarely take a human perspective or can be friend or pals. They are seen more as somekind of cult then defenders. We follow the Jedi that are an exception to this, and they become increasingly perturbed but are powerless to stop it.

The movies have all these elements already just.....In unfinished and less conesive combinations. With some re-writes and a secondary writer it could be really great.

This I agree with 100%. Even among themselves, the Jedi are arrogant and lacking basic sympathy. They don't look out for Anakin's emotional well being at any point, in fact they treat him rather poorly. They are also fairly out of touch with what is going on around them. They live in a literal ivory tower.

Ratman_tf

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2020, 12:02:23 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129356
First of all, the issue isn't just Tatooine. The clone army are a huge group of people abused as children, with no rights. The Jedi might not use the word "slave" for the troopers, but they accept that this is an army of disposable people with no rights that they use for their grunt work.

Yes, while Lucas dropped the ball in the films, in the Clone Wars cartoon, which he had a direct hand in, they go into the morality of a created warrior caste. The Republic was in a tough spot. Use an already created and ready to go army of clones who were designed to be loyal to the Republic and wanted to fight it's enemies, or lose to the Seperatists. That was Palpatine's plan to get his army in place to create the Empire.

Quote
I guess the logic here is that it would be a really difficult task to stop slavery entirely -- either on Tatooine or more widely. That's true, but it was also true that in the real world, when slavery was entrenched, there were people who acted against it -- freeing slaves one at a time if necessary, and trying to turn free people against the practice. But the Jedi just go with the flow and don't have a problem with slavery.

I suppose that sort of fits. The Jedi are sort of "go with the flow" types. That actually also fits with later canon that once the Empire was established, the surviving Jedi (Yoda and Kenobi) weren't part of the Rebellion, but instead retired. Overthrowing the Empire would be a really difficult problem that would take many years to overcome, if it happened at all.

Just because the Jedi were unable or unwilling to focus on the problems of one planet among thousands, at a very specific time and set of circumstance, doesn't mean that they were fine with slavery in general.

The Jedi were almost all destroyed. Men, women and children. Their hope was for the few survivors to bide their time and raise Anakin's children on the chance that they could redeem the Jedi and defeat the Emperor.

My point is, Lucas tried to portray a complex situtation, and didn't have the writing chops to do it. The films gloss over a lot of these topics so they can get on with the "sand gets everywhere" nonsense writing. This is the guy who made THX-1138, a movie about how a technlolgocially advanced society dehumanized it's citizens. The dude isn't ignorant about the implications of a clone army. He's just incompetent in dealing with the subject matter in his space wizards movie.
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Ratman_tf

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2020, 12:05:24 PM »
Quote from: Lurkndog;1129377
This I agree with 100%. Even among themselves, the Jedi are arrogant and lacking basic sympathy. They don't look out for Anakin's emotional well being at any point, in fact they treat him rather poorly. They are also fairly out of touch with what is going on around them. They live in a literal ivory tower.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to get at. There are good critiques of how Lucas wrote the Jedi in the prequels, and then there's the oversimplifications that miss the point of why the Jedi got into the predicament they were in.
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HappyDaze

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2020, 01:25:42 PM »
One of the Legends novels featured a Jedi that fucked one of her clone troopers.

Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2020, 03:32:45 PM »
In my opinion I really disliked the clone wars cartoon for trying to humanize the clones too much (or rebels for saying it was just a mind control chip that forced them to behave bad).

They are a ethical nightmare and trying to justify them by making them all buddy buddy I felt kinda was removed from the fact they where child slaves.

jhkim

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2020, 04:59:03 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129380
My point is, Lucas tried to portray a complex situtation, and didn't have the writing chops to do it. The films gloss over a lot of these topics so they can get on with the "sand gets everywhere" nonsense writing. This is the guy who made THX-1138, a movie about how a technlolgocially advanced society dehumanized it's citizens. The dude isn't ignorant about the implications of a clone army. He's just incompetent in dealing with the subject matter in his space wizards movie.
I have no doubt that Lucas *intended* to portray the Jedi as essentially good but flawed by their hubris.

But what came out was not what he intended, in my opinion. Much like how he intended Jar-Jar to be a lovable comic sidekick just like in the old-time serials, but that's not how it came out.

In the original trilogy, I suspect other input brought a sense of thoughtfulness and wisdom to the Jedi -- like actors Guinness and Oz along with the Empire Strikes Back team (Kershner, Kasdan, and Brackett). As portrayed, their Kenobi and Yoda were peaceful folk who saw violence as a last resort. In the prequels, though, Lucas wanted more straight action movie, and treated the moral dilemmas as delays in getting to the ass-kicking. The result, though, is that the Jedi come across as violent thugs with no time for nicey-nicey stuff or feelings. It's not a coincidence that Samuel L. Jackson was brought in to portray their leader. Especially, the prequels made a mockery of the original Yoda. In ESB, Luke was supposed to be gravely mistaken when he says that he's looking for a "great warrior" Yoda. And Yoda is portrayed as being whimsical and contrary when he says that Luke is "too old". But Lucas takes these at face value and makes them into key plot points for the prequels.

It is stunning to me that anyone can watch a factory full of children being assembly-line trained as soldiers, and not immediately think it is horrific child abuse. Lucas intended that using the clones was a lapse in judgement for the Jedi -- falling into Palpatine's trap as an honest mistake. But it's not a lapse in judgement or an honest mistake. It's a fundamental moral failing. The same applies over and over to everything that the Jedi do in the prequels. Lucas isn't interested in the morality and just want to get on to the action, so the Jedi come across as not interested in morality and just want to get on to the action.

Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2020, 06:52:43 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129402
It is stunning to me that anyone can watch a factory full of children being assembly-line trained as soldiers, and not immediately think it is horrific child abuse. Lucas intended that using the clones was a lapse in judgement for the Jedi -- falling into Palpatine's trap as an honest mistake. But it's not a lapse in judgement or an honest mistake. It's a fundamental moral failing. The same applies over and over to everything that the Jedi do in the prequels. Lucas isn't interested in the morality and just want to get on to the action, so the Jedi come across as not interested in morality and just want to get on to the action.


Again I think Lucas WAS interested in the morality. The fact that the Jedi are all ultimatly killed by their brainwashed army is a good example of this sort of thing. I didn't get the sense that Kamino was 'wonderful and whimsical' but creepy and sterile. To a certain extent if he made the payoff more clear, the introduction could be seen as more of a subtle thing, as opposed to a 'IN YOUR FACE THIS IS EVIL'.

He just needed like 2 editors.

Its such a shame that for a lack of a few editors the prequels didn't become this fantastic trilogy and the sequels would have never happened as we imagined them today.

Ratman_tf

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2020, 09:06:10 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129396
In my opinion I really disliked the clone wars cartoon for trying to humanize the clones too much (or rebels for saying it was just a mind control chip that forced them to behave bad).

I agree about the chip thing. It's not enough that they had been genetically engineered to be loyal, and indoctrinated since childhood, they also had to have some kind of physical chip thing. That was dumb.
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Ratman_tf

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2020, 09:11:10 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129402
Lucas isn't interested in the morality and just want to get on to the action, so the Jedi come across as not interested in morality and just want to get on to the action.

I can agree with that.
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