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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Ratman_tf on May 07, 2020, 12:07:09 PM

Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 07, 2020, 12:07:09 PM
I've seen this comment pop up in the fandom from time to time.

I don't remember any time in the prequels were it's claimed the Jedi were celibate. They were forbidden to form attachment, but friendships were clearly tolerated, and a general "love your fellow man (being)" ethos was encouraged.

So, could Jedi get it on, as long as they didn't form an attachment? Could Jedi form families? How did this affect alien Jedi who maybe had different ways of relating to their mates and offspring?
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 07, 2020, 01:47:17 PM
Answer is no and the prequels fucked up majorly because of this. Its a mix of Bhuddism and Christianity. The end result is incongrous with itself.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Thornhammer on May 07, 2020, 02:23:17 PM
"No passion?  Heh!  Misled, you have been.  Many younglings have I left behind.  Hiding on Dagobah?  Not just from Empire."  Yoda chuckles and slowly shakes his head.  "Much child support, Master Yoda owes.  Collect now, they will not."
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 07, 2020, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129124
I've seen this comment pop up in the fandom from time to time.

I don't remember any time in the prequels were it's claimed the Jedi were celibate. They were forbidden to form attachment, but friendships were clearly tolerated, and a general "love your fellow man (being)" ethos was encouraged.

So, could Jedi get it on, as long as they didn't form an attachment? Could Jedi form families? How did this affect alien Jedi who maybe had different ways of relating to their mates and offspring?
Prior to the prequels, the Jedi were assumed to have families and were portrayed as such in the expanded universe. But as of the prequels, the canonical answer is that the act of sex isn't strictly forbidden as such, but attachments are forbidden and it's certainly against the portrayal of the prequel Jedi for them to engage in casual sex. None of the canonical Jedi are portrayed as engaging in casual sex, or having families.

I understand there were some potential romantic encounters in the Knights of the Old Republic video game -- but it's unclear what those represent. (Are they breaking the Jedi rules like Anakin and Padme?)

It's dumb, like a lot of things in the prequels. Actually, as of the prequels, I've found the Jedi to be not just dumb but actively horrible and evil -- thuggish killers whose only redeeming feature is that they're not quite as bad as the Sith they want to exterminate.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on May 07, 2020, 03:18:00 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129146
Prior to the prequels, the Jedi were assumed to have families and were portrayed as such in the expanded universe. But as of the prequels, the canonical answer is that the act of sex isn't strictly forbidden as such, but attachments are forbidden and it's certainly against the portrayal of the prequel Jedi for them to engage in casual sex. None of the canonical Jedi are portrayed as engaging in casual sex, or having families.

I understand there were some potential romantic encounters in the Knights of the Old Republic video game -- but it's unclear what those represent. (Are they breaking the Jedi rules like Anakin and Padme?)

   My understanding in the old canon--or at least my headcanon--is that the celibacy rules only get introduced after the last Sith War as part of the Order's "play it safe, avoid anything that might lead to the Dark Side" approach. (This is the same reason they start only training babies.)
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 07, 2020, 03:27:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129146
It's dumb, like a lot of things in the prequels. Actually, as of the prequels, I've found the Jedi to be not just dumb but actively horrible and evil -- thuggish killers whose only redeeming feature is that they're not quite as bad as the Sith they want to exterminate.

Ugh. I agree that the Jedi were not well thought out in the prequels and it brought up a lot of odd questions about how their system actually worked, but the idea that the Jedi were actively evil is as tedious as the idea that the Empire were really just misunderstood "good guys".
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 07, 2020, 07:26:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129146
Prior to the prequels, the Jedi were assumed to have families and were portrayed as such in the expanded universe. But as of the prequels, the canonical answer is that the act of sex isn't strictly forbidden as such, but attachments are forbidden and it's certainly against the portrayal of the prequel Jedi for them to engage in casual sex. None of the canonical Jedi are portrayed as engaging in casual sex, or having families.

I understand there were some potential romantic encounters in the Knights of the Old Republic video game -- but it's unclear what those represent. (Are they breaking the Jedi rules like Anakin and Padme?)

It's dumb, like a lot of things in the prequels. Actually, as of the prequels, I've found the Jedi to be not just dumb but actively horrible and evil -- thuggish killers whose only redeeming feature is that they're not quite as bad as the Sith they want to exterminate.

Yes, yes, agreed, the prequels turned the Jedi in just an extremist cult in some regards worst than the Sith.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129149
Ugh. I agree that the Jedi were not well thought out in the prequels and it brought up a lot of odd questions about how their system actually worked, but the idea that the Jedi were actively evil is as tedious as the idea that the Empire were really just misunderstood "good guys".

Both the Jedi and the Empire can be the baddies with the Sith aligning themselves with the Empire to get help in fighting those who seek to exterminate them.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 07, 2020, 09:13:15 PM
Given that Force ability is clearly depicted as a genetic trait, wouldn't that mean that celibacy was self-defeating? By selecting for force sensitivity, and then demanding that their members be celibate, the Jedi would effectively be breeding force abilities out of the general population.

Of course, the prequels also imply that the Jedi order had lost its way to some extent.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 07, 2020, 09:22:26 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1129203
Given that Force ability is clearly depicted as a genetic trait, wouldn't that mean that celibacy was self-defeating? By selecting for force sensitivity, and then demanding that their members be celibate, the Jedi would effectively be breeding force abilities out of the general population.

An argument can be made that the force is evil and is incredibly dangerous without insane self control and the Jedi work to eliminate the force from the galaxy.

Thats what the prequels and sequels taught me anyway.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 07, 2020, 11:58:32 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129204
An argument can be made that the force is evil and is incredibly dangerous without insane self control and the Jedi work to eliminate the force from the galaxy.

Except they don't, in any way, do that. And the Force is explicitly defined as having a light side in addition to the dark side.

In Star Wars Rebels, we saw the Empire attacking force users via the Inquisitors, but that was an "if you're not with us, you're against us" situation. The Empire didn't deal in ethics, to put it mildly.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 08, 2020, 02:27:40 PM
Quote from: jhkim
It's dumb, like a lot of things in the prequels. Actually, as of the prequels, I've found the Jedi to be not just dumb but actively horrible and evil -- thuggish killers whose only redeeming feature is that they're not quite as bad as the Sith they want to exterminate.
Quote from: Ratman_tf
Ugh. I agree that the Jedi were not well thought out in the prequels and it brought up a lot of odd questions about how their system actually worked, but the idea that the Jedi were actively evil is as tedious as the idea that the Empire were really just misunderstood "good guys".
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129189
Both the Jedi and the Empire can be the baddies with the Sith aligning themselves with the Empire to get help in fighting those who seek to exterminate them.
The Jedi's moral code doesn't even include opposing slavery. If Anakin was just a child slave and didn't have force powers, they wouldn't have lifted a finger to help him -- as indeed they did nothing for his mother. When given the "gift" of thousands of people with abusive childhoods, they decide "Hey, let's take these kids and use them as shock troops." There is no effort to give them rights or help them recover from their abusive childhoods. They don't just tolerate slavery -- they actively participate in it.

More broadly, they act to violently enforce the law, with no question of whether the law is wrong or right. The only exception to this, it seems, is if the law is by a Sith -- in which case they try to kill them. As Palpatine rose to power, they had some thought that it was a bad direction -- but they took no action against him. It wasn't until they learned he was a Sith that they acted. If he had just been a non-Sith bad guy, it's unclear when if ever they would have opposed his rule. Maybe they would have, but given that they took no action even to oppose slavery, he'd have to go very far for them to actively oppose him. They took wholeheartedly to owning a slave army and violently suppressing the Separatists, after all.

As portrayed, the Separatists are evil -- but the Jedi attack them not because they're evil, but because they are Separatists. They don't take any action - even mild action - to oppose other evil regimes like the Hutts.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 08, 2020, 02:41:35 PM
The answer is simple really.

There is no answer.

Whatever has been presented before can and will get tossed right out the window and turned on its head without warning.

Jedi have families and emotions.
Something in between.
Jedi dont have families or emotions.
Something totally fucked up like all Jedi and Sith are force babies with no father. Or Jedi are really vampires that need to suck the midiclorians from the veins of the living!
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2020, 02:49:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129302
The Jedi's moral code doesn't even include opposing slavery. If Anakin was just a child slave and didn't have force powers, they wouldn't have lifted a finger to help him -- as indeed they did nothing for his mother. When given the "gift" of thousands of people with abusive childhoods, they decide "Hey, let's take these kids and use them as shock troops." There is no effort to give them rights or help them recover from their abusive childhoods. They don't just tolerate slavery -- they actively participate in it.

More broadly, they act to violently enforce the law, with no question of whether the law is wrong or right. The only exception to this, it seems, is if the law is by a Sith -- in which case they try to kill them. As Palpatine rose to power, they had some thought that it was a bad direction -- but they took no action against him. It wasn't until they learned he was a Sith that they acted. If he had just been a non-Sith bad guy, it's unclear when if ever they would have opposed his rule. Maybe they would have, but given that they took no action even to oppose slavery, he'd have to go very far for them to actively oppose him. They took wholeheartedly to owning a slave army and violently suppressing the Separatists, after all.

As portrayed, the Separatists are evil -- but the Jedi attack them not because they're evil, but because they are Separatists. They don't take any action - even mild action - to oppose other evil regimes like the Hutts.

The alternative is Jedi vigilantes without even the slight responsibility to the Republic that they had in the prequels.
Tatooine was outside the Republic. As peacekeepers for the Republic they had no juristicion there. Sending in a Jedi strike team to liberate all the slaves would not have ended slavery on Tatooine. They would have to annex Tatooine and enforce Republic law there.
Maybe the Jedi were in the wrong to place themselves (or to have been placed) in the role of peacekeepers for the Republic, but if not, then they would have no place supporting either the Republic or the Seperatists.
But like I said, the prequels didn't have a clear vision of what the legalities of Jedi police actually meant. Can the Republic force the Jedi to kick out a corrupt member? Do they enforce petty laws, like littering and jaywalking? Are there departments that oversee Jedi enforcment of laws? None of this is covered and so we're left to speculate.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 08, 2020, 03:00:34 PM
IIRC, one of the Jedi council, Ki-Adi-Mundi, was specifically given permission to have a family due to his species' relatively low birthrates.

Which of course muddies the water further. Man, Star Trek's explanation of Vulcan logic was more consistent.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: David Johansen on May 08, 2020, 05:00:22 PM
Quote from: Thornhammer;1129144
"No passion?  Heh!  Misled, you have been.  Many younglings have I left behind.  Hiding on Dagobah?  Not just from Empire."  Yoda chuckles and slowly shakes his head.  "Much child support, Master Yoda owes.  Collect now, they will not."


Really, that's very close to how I thought Rey's parentage would work.  Suppose you're Luke Skywalker, last Jedi, bearer of the Skywalker Jedi Genes (TM) and its all falling apart and the Sith are winning again because Disney lacks the conviction to innovate, so you go and you spread those Skywalker Genes, you spread 'em til your junk drops off and twenty years later you back track and collect all those dozens of super force sensitive kids and train them in secret.  Really, the Bene Gessert would have a field day with the Star Wars universe.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 08, 2020, 05:41:50 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1129234
Except they don't, in any way, do that. And the Force is explicitly defined as having a light side in addition to the dark side.

The dark side is a ton stronger and has all tons of powers the light side does not possess. Sorry yoda but the dark side IS more powerful.

Im not saying this was done out of intent or being well crafted. Im saying sloppiness and a tendency for repitition and uncreativity made the Star Wars universe a never ending war torn zone ravaged by darkside powers. Kinda like a more toned down 40K.

Not saying this is what I prefer either. Im just saying thats how it is in the sequels AND in the EU.

While the sequels are guilty of terrible writing, their worst ideas where accidentally stolen from the EU.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 08, 2020, 06:36:49 PM
Quote from: jhkim
More broadly, they act to violently enforce the law, with no question of whether the law is wrong or right. The only exception to this, it seems, is if the law is by a Sith -- in which case they try to kill them. As Palpatine rose to power, they had some thought that it was a bad direction -- but they took no action against him. It wasn't until they learned he was a Sith that they acted. If he had just been a non-Sith bad guy, it's unclear when if ever they would have opposed his rule. Maybe they would have, but given that they took no action even to oppose slavery, he'd have to go very far for them to actively oppose him. They took wholeheartedly to owning a slave army and violently suppressing the Separatists, after all.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129304
The alternative is Jedi vigilantes without even the slight responsibility to the Republic that they had in the prequels.
Tatooine was outside the Republic. As peacekeepers for the Republic they had no juristicion there. Sending in a Jedi strike team to liberate all the slaves would not have ended slavery on Tatooine. They would have to annex Tatooine and enforce Republic law there.
Maybe the Jedi were in the wrong to place themselves (or to have been placed) in the role of peacekeepers for the Republic, but if not, then they would have no place supporting either the Republic or the Seperatists.
But the Jedi *did* liberate a slave from Tatooine. The council questioned whether it was a good idea to add the slave to their ranks as a new child soldier, but they didn't object to the illegality of liberating a slave. Though I expect if they had liberated a slave just to be good rather than to recruit a new child soldier, they would have gotten into more trouble.

Within our own history, both government officials and non-governmental organizations can and did act against slavery. Public figures spoke up against slavery, and urged others within their country to take steps against it - like economic sanctions against worlds engaging in slavery. Non-government organizations helped with the Underground Railroad, and organized resistance against slavery. If a government official were to be offered a slave army to take charge of, they could refuse to do so, and resign if they were forced to do so. For example, General David Hunter was an outspoken abolitionist even while he served before the Civil War.

As far as I can see, things could have gone better if the Jedi were either (1) regular soldiers with a basic sense of right and wrong; or (2) a non-governmental organization with a basic sense of right and wrong.


Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129304
But like I said, the prequels didn't have a clear vision of what the legalities of Jedi police actually meant. Can the Republic force the Jedi to kick out a corrupt member? Do they enforce petty laws, like littering and jaywalking? Are there departments that oversee Jedi enforcment of laws? None of this is covered and so we're left to speculate.
I agree that this was left unclear. But regardless of what is *legal*, there is the basic question about what is *moral*. And the Jedi didn't stand up for what was moral, and resist immoral laws -- except to fight the Sith.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 08, 2020, 07:29:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129334
But the Jedi *did* liberate a slave from Tatooine. The council questioned whether it was a good idea to add the slave to their ranks as a new child soldier, but they didn't object to the illegality of liberating a slave. Though I expect if they had liberated a slave just to be good rather than to recruit a new child soldier, they would have gotten into more trouble.

Qui-Gonn won a slave. what he did after winning Anakin on a wager was his business. Cleig Larrs freed Shmi after purchasing her. Seems to happen often enough on Tatooine for it to be legal. Neither events ended the slave trade on Tatooine.

Quote
Within our own history, both government officials and non-governmental organizations can and did act against slavery. Public figures spoke up against slavery, and urged others within their country to take steps against it - like economic sanctions against worlds engaging in slavery. Non-government organizations helped with the Underground Railroad, and organized resistance against slavery. If a government official were to be offered a slave army to take charge of, they could refuse to do so, and resign if they were forced to do so. For example, General David Hunter was an outspoken abolitionist even while he served before the Civil War.

As far as I can see, things could have gone better if the Jedi were either (1) regular soldiers with a basic sense of right and wrong; or (2) a non-governmental organization with a basic sense of right and wrong.

I agree that this was left unclear. But regardless of what is *legal*, there is the basic question about what is *moral*. And the Jedi didn't stand up for what was moral, and resist immoral laws -- except to fight the Sith.

How much leverage could the Jedi exert on Tatooine to end the slave trade? What measures could the Republic have taken? How much trade exists between Tatooine and the Republic for them to levy sanctions?
Borka Morka's got a planetary plague to deal with, Naboo's been invaded by the Trade Federation, the damn Seperatists are demonstrating in front of the Senate again, the Coruscant Sanitation Union are on strike and garbage is piling up in the streets.
Tatooine isnt' even a member of the Republic, and the Senate takes years to decide on anything.
I guess they could send a strongly worded letter to the Hutts. I'm sure that would help.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 08, 2020, 08:04:29 PM
In addition from what I get Tattoine lacks a real centralized government. There isn't a palace you bust down and say 'Naught Naughty!'

Its a culture. Its slave trade exists within its own borders. Stopping it would require a massive peacekeeping force because sanctions on the planet of bumfuckallistan would do nothing.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 09, 2020, 03:02:24 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129339
Qui-Gonn won a slave. what he did after winning Anakin on a wager was his business. Cleig Larrs freed Shmi after purchasing her. Seems to happen often enough on Tatooine for it to be legal. Neither events ended the slave trade on Tatooine.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129341
In addition from what I get Tattoine lacks a real centralized government. There isn't a palace you bust down and say 'Naught Naughty!'

Its a culture. Its slave trade exists within its own borders. Stopping it would require a massive peacekeeping force because sanctions on the planet of bumfuckallistan would do nothing.
First of all, the issue isn't just Tatooine. The clone army are a huge group of people abused as children, with no rights. The Jedi might not use the word "slave" for the troopers, but they accept that this is an army of disposable people with no rights that they use for their grunt work.

I guess the logic here is that it would be a really difficult task to stop slavery entirely -- either on Tatooine or more widely. That's true, but it was also true that in the real world, when slavery was entrenched, there were people who acted against it -- freeing slaves one at a time if necessary, and trying to turn free people against the practice. But the Jedi just go with the flow and don't have a problem with slavery.

I suppose that sort of fits. The Jedi are sort of "go with the flow" types. That actually also fits with later canon that once the Empire was established, the surviving Jedi (Yoda and Kenobi) weren't part of the Rebellion, but instead retired. Overthrowing the Empire would be a really difficult problem that would take many years to overcome, if it happened at all.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 09, 2020, 10:51:06 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1129356
First of all, the issue isn't just Tatooine. The clone army are a huge group of people abused as children, with no rights. The Jedi might not use the word "slave" for the troopers, but they accept that this is an army of disposable people with no rights that they use for their grunt work.

What I really want to like about the prequels and what could have been empahsized more if Lucas had somebody forced him to do a second draft, is that this is the FALL of the Jedi.
The elements are already there, it just could have been stitched together into a cohesive whole.

The Jedi are arrogant and insular, and care more for beurocracy then people. In an attempt to become resistant to the darkside they instead become cold and distant and 'miss the forest for the trees'.
To the avarage person the Jedi are cold distant weirdos that rarely take a human perspective or can be friend or pals. They are seen more as somekind of cult then defenders. We follow the Jedi that are an exception to this, and they become increasingly perturbed but are powerless to stop it.

The movies have all these elements already just.....In unfinished and less conesive combinations. With some re-writes and a secondary writer it could be really great.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 09, 2020, 11:28:49 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129373
What I really want to like about the prequels and what could have been empahsized more if Lucas had somebody forced him to do a second draft, is that this is the FALL of the Jedi.
The elements are already there, it just could have been stitched together into a cohesive whole.

The Jedi are arrogant and insular, and care more for beurocracy then people. In an attempt to become resistant to the darkside they instead become cold and distant and 'miss the forest for the trees'.
To the avarage person the Jedi are cold distant weirdos that rarely take a human perspective or can be friend or pals. They are seen more as somekind of cult then defenders. We follow the Jedi that are an exception to this, and they become increasingly perturbed but are powerless to stop it.

The movies have all these elements already just.....In unfinished and less conesive combinations. With some re-writes and a secondary writer it could be really great.

This I agree with 100%. Even among themselves, the Jedi are arrogant and lacking basic sympathy. They don't look out for Anakin's emotional well being at any point, in fact they treat him rather poorly. They are also fairly out of touch with what is going on around them. They live in a literal ivory tower.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 09, 2020, 12:02:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129356
First of all, the issue isn't just Tatooine. The clone army are a huge group of people abused as children, with no rights. The Jedi might not use the word "slave" for the troopers, but they accept that this is an army of disposable people with no rights that they use for their grunt work.

Yes, while Lucas dropped the ball in the films, in the Clone Wars cartoon, which he had a direct hand in, they go into the morality of a created warrior caste. The Republic was in a tough spot. Use an already created and ready to go army of clones who were designed to be loyal to the Republic and wanted to fight it's enemies, or lose to the Seperatists. That was Palpatine's plan to get his army in place to create the Empire.

Quote
I guess the logic here is that it would be a really difficult task to stop slavery entirely -- either on Tatooine or more widely. That's true, but it was also true that in the real world, when slavery was entrenched, there were people who acted against it -- freeing slaves one at a time if necessary, and trying to turn free people against the practice. But the Jedi just go with the flow and don't have a problem with slavery.

I suppose that sort of fits. The Jedi are sort of "go with the flow" types. That actually also fits with later canon that once the Empire was established, the surviving Jedi (Yoda and Kenobi) weren't part of the Rebellion, but instead retired. Overthrowing the Empire would be a really difficult problem that would take many years to overcome, if it happened at all.

Just because the Jedi were unable or unwilling to focus on the problems of one planet among thousands, at a very specific time and set of circumstance, doesn't mean that they were fine with slavery in general.

The Jedi were almost all destroyed. Men, women and children. Their hope was for the few survivors to bide their time and raise Anakin's children on the chance that they could redeem the Jedi and defeat the Emperor.

My point is, Lucas tried to portray a complex situtation, and didn't have the writing chops to do it. The films gloss over a lot of these topics so they can get on with the "sand gets everywhere" nonsense writing. This is the guy who made THX-1138, a movie about how a technlolgocially advanced society dehumanized it's citizens. The dude isn't ignorant about the implications of a clone army. He's just incompetent in dealing with the subject matter in his space wizards movie.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 09, 2020, 12:05:24 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1129377
This I agree with 100%. Even among themselves, the Jedi are arrogant and lacking basic sympathy. They don't look out for Anakin's emotional well being at any point, in fact they treat him rather poorly. They are also fairly out of touch with what is going on around them. They live in a literal ivory tower.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to get at. There are good critiques of how Lucas wrote the Jedi in the prequels, and then there's the oversimplifications that miss the point of why the Jedi got into the predicament they were in.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 09, 2020, 01:25:42 PM
One of the Legends novels featured a Jedi that fucked one of her clone troopers.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 09, 2020, 03:32:45 PM
In my opinion I really disliked the clone wars cartoon for trying to humanize the clones too much (or rebels for saying it was just a mind control chip that forced them to behave bad).

They are a ethical nightmare and trying to justify them by making them all buddy buddy I felt kinda was removed from the fact they where child slaves.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 09, 2020, 04:59:03 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129380
My point is, Lucas tried to portray a complex situtation, and didn't have the writing chops to do it. The films gloss over a lot of these topics so they can get on with the "sand gets everywhere" nonsense writing. This is the guy who made THX-1138, a movie about how a technlolgocially advanced society dehumanized it's citizens. The dude isn't ignorant about the implications of a clone army. He's just incompetent in dealing with the subject matter in his space wizards movie.
I have no doubt that Lucas *intended* to portray the Jedi as essentially good but flawed by their hubris.

But what came out was not what he intended, in my opinion. Much like how he intended Jar-Jar to be a lovable comic sidekick just like in the old-time serials, but that's not how it came out.

In the original trilogy, I suspect other input brought a sense of thoughtfulness and wisdom to the Jedi -- like actors Guinness and Oz along with the Empire Strikes Back team (Kershner, Kasdan, and Brackett). As portrayed, their Kenobi and Yoda were peaceful folk who saw violence as a last resort. In the prequels, though, Lucas wanted more straight action movie, and treated the moral dilemmas as delays in getting to the ass-kicking. The result, though, is that the Jedi come across as violent thugs with no time for nicey-nicey stuff or feelings. It's not a coincidence that Samuel L. Jackson was brought in to portray their leader. Especially, the prequels made a mockery of the original Yoda. In ESB, Luke was supposed to be gravely mistaken when he says that he's looking for a "great warrior" Yoda. And Yoda is portrayed as being whimsical and contrary when he says that Luke is "too old". But Lucas takes these at face value and makes them into key plot points for the prequels.

It is stunning to me that anyone can watch a factory full of children being assembly-line trained as soldiers, and not immediately think it is horrific child abuse. Lucas intended that using the clones was a lapse in judgement for the Jedi -- falling into Palpatine's trap as an honest mistake. But it's not a lapse in judgement or an honest mistake. It's a fundamental moral failing. The same applies over and over to everything that the Jedi do in the prequels. Lucas isn't interested in the morality and just want to get on to the action, so the Jedi come across as not interested in morality and just want to get on to the action.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 09, 2020, 06:52:43 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129402
It is stunning to me that anyone can watch a factory full of children being assembly-line trained as soldiers, and not immediately think it is horrific child abuse. Lucas intended that using the clones was a lapse in judgement for the Jedi -- falling into Palpatine's trap as an honest mistake. But it's not a lapse in judgement or an honest mistake. It's a fundamental moral failing. The same applies over and over to everything that the Jedi do in the prequels. Lucas isn't interested in the morality and just want to get on to the action, so the Jedi come across as not interested in morality and just want to get on to the action.


Again I think Lucas WAS interested in the morality. The fact that the Jedi are all ultimatly killed by their brainwashed army is a good example of this sort of thing. I didn't get the sense that Kamino was 'wonderful and whimsical' but creepy and sterile. To a certain extent if he made the payoff more clear, the introduction could be seen as more of a subtle thing, as opposed to a 'IN YOUR FACE THIS IS EVIL'.

He just needed like 2 editors.

Its such a shame that for a lack of a few editors the prequels didn't become this fantastic trilogy and the sequels would have never happened as we imagined them today.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 09, 2020, 09:06:10 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129396
In my opinion I really disliked the clone wars cartoon for trying to humanize the clones too much (or rebels for saying it was just a mind control chip that forced them to behave bad).

I agree about the chip thing. It's not enough that they had been genetically engineered to be loyal, and indoctrinated since childhood, they also had to have some kind of physical chip thing. That was dumb.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 09, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129402
Lucas isn't interested in the morality and just want to get on to the action, so the Jedi come across as not interested in morality and just want to get on to the action.

I can agree with that.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 09, 2020, 09:12:08 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129433
I agree about the chip thing. It's not enough that they had been genetically engineered to be loyal, and indoctrinated since childhood, they also had to have some kind of physical chip thing. That was dumb.

No to me the issue was if you could have a chip control them why bother with the mental conditioning stuff.

My problem was it took away the Jedis culpability. I like the idea being that all the clones loyalty was just mind control. They where only loyal to their conditioning and what the Jedi assumed otherwise was just wishfull thinking.When they where issued their new command they remained loyal to their conditioning ten times more.

This chip thing means that their loyalty programming didn't work. Its trying to cutsify a army of brainwashed drones.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Koltar on May 09, 2020, 10:00:10 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129124


So, could Jedi get it on, as long as they didn't form an attachment?
Could Jedi form families? How did this affect alien Jedi who maybe had different ways of relating to their mates and offspring?


YES - see the TV show "Star Wars Rebels" - Kaanan Jarrus proved that Jedi could have romantic relationships and even sex without acting all stupid. His relationship with Captain Hera was 'adult' and mature in the right way.

Their imagined rules against 'attachments' were probably self destructive in many ways.

Anakin Skywalker was an obsessive sociopath - his stupidity does not prove anything about 'attachments' one way or the other. He was young, immature, and stupid.

- Ed C.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 09, 2020, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Koltar;1129440
YES - see the TV show "Star Wars Rebels" - Kaanan Jarrus proved that Jedi could have romantic relationships and even sex without acting all stupid. His relationship with Captain Hera was 'adult' and mature in the right way.

Their imagined rules against 'attachments' were probably self destructive in many ways.

Anakin Skywalker was an obsessive sociopath - his stupidity does not prove anything about 'attachments' one way or the other. He was young, immature, and stupid.

- Ed C.

Huh. I've watched Rebels, and I don't remember them having sex. And it's kinda too late for the Jedi Order to care at that point anyway.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 10, 2020, 09:59:23 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129433
I agree about the chip thing. It's not enough that they had been genetically engineered to be loyal, and indoctrinated since childhood, they also had to have some kind of physical chip thing. That was dumb.


I thought the chip made sense. Yes they were brought up to be loyal, but they were brought up to be loyal to the Jedi, who were their commanders.

The chip was there to make them turn on the Jedi.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 10, 2020, 10:44:40 AM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1129480
Yes they were brought up to be loyal, but they were brought up to be loyal to the Jedi, who were their commanders.

They where not and it makes no sense that they would be. This whole thing was orchastrated by Palpatine, and it makes no sense for him to create an army that was loyal to the people he wanted gone. This 'Loyalty to the Jedi' thing was a thing never specified and only implied later in clone wars and rebels.
The Clones where Loyal to the republic. And when they recieved the command 'Jedi B gone' they where flushed out like turds in a bowl.

The chip thing is dumb because if that could be applied to clones, why wouldn't it be applied to almost every Trooper ever? Its a lazy copout.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on May 10, 2020, 08:27:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1129386
One of the Legends novels featured a Jedi that fucked one of her clone troopers.


Written by a writer who hates the Jedi and most of the OT heroes.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Koltar on May 11, 2020, 12:30:27 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129443
Huh. I've watched Rebels, and I don't remember them having sex. And it's kinda too late for the Jedi Order to care at that point anyway.

Between episodes or during commercial breaks - there are plenty of hints that they did. Also, apologies on the spoiler - but according to the last episode of the series he and Hera conceived a child before he died - look again at the final scenes of the last episode of Season 4.

Also, Black & White movies in the 1950s you would see two characters kiss and hold each other, then they fade to black. Next time we see the two characters they are adjusting clothing or giving each other knowing looks - yes, we are suppose to realize they made love off screen - same thing with the show "Rebels".

- Ed C.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 11, 2020, 06:19:06 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1129520
Written by a writer who hates the Jedi and most of the OT heroes.

Still, she was a paid writer for the IP regardless of those feelings.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Orphan81 on May 11, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
During the Prequel era and the Old Republic, sexual relationships and romantic attachments were strictly forbidden among the Jedi. The Jedi in particular forbid relationships because not only was it about attachments, but to prevent Force dynasties from being formed.

The Jedi are supposed to be the equivalent of Shaolin Monks. You're a bad ass Kung Fu master dedicated to the greater good. The novels and expanded material set after the original Trilogy has the Jedi form families and the like.

Personally, I prefer my Jedi Celibate, like Shaolin monks who have become enlightened and given up their attachments to the world in order to serve the Greater Good.

And yes, the Light Side IS stronger than the Dark side. The Dark side is just quicker and more selfish.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 11, 2020, 09:51:31 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129624
And yes, the Light Side IS stronger than the Dark side. The Dark side is just quicker and more selfish.

Only in a plot Armor Sense. The dark side has way more cool toys, has way more effects, and does more and is more easily prevalent. This is the end result of lots of lazy writing. No Light side user has ever made warp storms that ravage the galaxy. No Lightside user ever ressurected themselves. No lightside user could save a planet from destruction as a darkside user could consume one whole. The superpower of the light side is having protagonists use be set in it.

And 'Christian Knight vs Shoilin Monk' has always been a problematic element of Jedi it can't reconcile. Shoilin Monks generally stuck to themselves and detachment serves that well.
Christian Knights where active and crusadery and where not detached.

This mixed together as well as motor oil and jam.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Orphan81 on May 11, 2020, 10:58:32 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129629
Only in a plot Armor Sense. The dark side has way more cool toys, has way more effects, and does more and is more easily prevalent. This is the end result of lots of lazy writing. No Light side user has ever made warp storms that ravage the galaxy. No Lightside user ever ressurected themselves. No lightside user could save a planet from destruction as a darkside user could consume one whole. The superpower of the light side is having protagonists use be set in it.

And 'Christian Knight vs Shoilin Monk' has always been a problematic element of Jedi it can't reconcile. Shoilin Monks generally stuck to themselves and detachment serves that well.
Christian Knights where active and crusadery and where not detached.

This mixed together as well as motor oil and jam.

The Light Side is stronger because it's able to counter and undo every effect you just mentioned. As Master Yoda said while catching Force Lighting in his hand.... "Much to learn you still have."

The point of the Lightside, the point of being Good, is not destruction... Which is why it doesn't do those effects, and why it counters those effects. The Light side of the Force is not about seeking destructive toys, it's about bringing Good to the world around you. As for Shaolin Monks, apparently you haven't watched enough Kung Fu movies, because the Shaolin monks in those are always getting involved to protect the common people from oppressors and villains. Fuck dude, why do you think there's a D&D class entirely devoted to playing one?
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 11, 2020, 11:46:39 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129631
The Light Side is stronger because it's able to counter and undo every effect you just mentioned. As Master Yoda said while catching Force Lighting in his hand.... "Much to learn you still have."


Don't fan wank me here. Im asking for concrete counter arguments to my point that Star Wars writers invested new powers for the darkside for new villains while the light side countered....none of it. Can the force bring life to a dead planet? No. Can it counter darkside storms? No. Can it heal the wounded? On wait thats a Darkside power. He was able to catch some Sith Lightning. Thats it.

At BEST the Light Side was capable of defending against the darkside. But in no way countered it outside of the 'Lightning reflects off a lightsaber' thing. But that requires them to keep zapping you, instead of just stopping.

The end result after decades of creative sterility that the light sides main power was plot armor.
Quote
As for Shaolin Monks, apparently you haven't watched enough Kung Fu movies


As an  counter argument for how Oxymoronic Jedi are, saying 'Watch Kung Fu movies' is a rather weak one.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 12, 2020, 01:08:53 AM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129631
The Light Side is stronger because it's able to counter and undo every effect you just mentioned. As Master Yoda said while catching Force Lighting in his hand.... "Much to learn you still have."

The point of the Lightside, the point of being Good, is not destruction... Which is why it doesn't do those effects, and why it counters those effects. The Light side of the Force is not about seeking destructive toys, it's about bringing Good to the world around you.
This is something I found bizarre about interpretations of the Force. Apparently chopping someone in half isn't considered dark or destructive, but tasing someone with a non-lethal zap is considered inherently evil?!? What's up with that? I get that the *character* of the Emperor is evil, but just like light sabers or anything else -- I would think that the morality of Force use is in what is done with it.


Quote from: Orphan81;1129631
As for Shaolin Monks, apparently you haven't watched enough Kung Fu movies, because the Shaolin monks in those are always getting involved to protect the common people from oppressors and villains. Fuck dude, why do you think there's a D&D class entirely devoted to playing one?
It varies from film to film. In a most of them that I've seen, it's someone who was *kicked out* of the Shaolin temple that goes and helps people. Actually, it occurs to me that Jet Li's "Tai Chi Master" is an interesting parable for the Star Wars prequels. Two friends are both taken in by the Shaolin temple as boys. Their lives are extremely harsh, unloving, and they are toughened by constant beating, but they learn to fight well before escaping. One joins the military and becomes a horrendous warlord. The other, though, goes to a good household -- where he gets married and unlearns the abusive ways taught to him by the Shaolin -- then invents Tai Chi as a reaction against the Shaolin. The story is that getting married and having a family is a key to balance and goodness, while being with a bunch of celibate men constantly training for violence just begets more violence.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Orphan81 on May 12, 2020, 05:26:16 AM
Quote
tasing someone with a non-lethal zap is considered inherently evil?!?


Come on man. You can't really tell me you believe Force Lightning is "non-lethal". That's just a disingenuous argument there. The shit was so powerful we could see Darth Vader's skeleton in flashes while he was being hit by it.

Quote
It varies from film to film. In a most of them that I've seen, it's someone who was *kicked out* of the Shaolin temple that goes and helps people. Actually, it occurs to me that Jet Li's "Tai Chi Master" is an interesting parable for the Star Wars prequels. Two friends are both taken in by the Shaolin temple as boys. Their lives are extremely harsh, unloving, and they are toughened by constant beating, but they learn to fight well before escaping. One joins the military and becomes a horrendous warlord. The other, though, goes to a good household -- where he gets married and unlearns the abusive ways taught to him by the Shaolin -- then invents Tai Chi as a reaction against the Shaolin. The story is that getting married and having a family is a key to balance and goodness, while being with a bunch of celibate men constantly training for violence just begets more violence.


I've seen Tai Chi Master, let me counter with "The 36th Chamber of Shaolin" based on San Te. Troubled kid learns Shaolin, frees the people from oppression, then returns to the Temple and teaches Martial Arts. A more modern example I particularly like is Bullet Proof Monk.

Quote
Can the force bring life to a dead planet? No. Can it counter darkside storms? No. Can it heal the wounded? On wait thats a Darkside power.
Alright, yes to the first and last question, no to the middle. Also you're dead wrong. Healing people is specifically a Light Side power. You can see for yourself here https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_healing. The Light Side is also capable of holding Black Holes in place if we want to start whipping out expanded universe examples. You seem to be going with this idea that "More destruction and killing ability" equals "Better".

Quote
As an counter argument for how Oxymoronic Jedi are, saying 'Watch Kung Fu movies' is a rather weak one.


Considering those are the actual inspiration for the Jedi, just trying to dismiss them is weak as hell on your part. They're not Christian Knights in any sense of the word, except for the fact they use swords. Come on man, give me a better example.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 12, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129652
Come on man. You can't really tell me you believe Force Lightning is "non-lethal". That's just a disingenuous argument there. The shit was so powerful we could see Darth Vader's skeleton in flashes while he was being hit by it.
I will agree on this point. Force Lightning even as 'Non-lethal' is effectively torture.

Quote
Alright, yes to the first and last question, no to the middle.
This is mostly fanwank as what the Jedi can do changes from thing to thing. The EU full of retarded shit like viruses that turn you into robots and dakrside force bombs. And at least 3 aggressive species of biotech users.
I will digress to the idea that in some book somewhere the Jedi Re-light suns and shit. I will say that it was stupid of me to bring up the EU of evidence of ANYTHING because the EU stands for many things depending on the decade and the writer. Its my fault and I accept credit for bringing this stupidity into the argument.

And the Jedi have many inspirations. Im saying that those inspirations don't mix well. Your example of commercialized versions that themselves don't mix well are also a good example of that.

Shoilin Monks where isolationist. Even your examples show of monks BREAKING the Shoilin way by breaking isolation.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 12, 2020, 01:44:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129642
This is something I found bizarre about interpretations of the Force. Apparently chopping someone in half isn't considered dark or destructive, but tasing someone with a non-lethal zap is considered inherently evil?!? What's up with that? I get that the *character* of the Emperor is evil, but just like light sabers or anything else -- I would think that the morality of Force use is in what is done with it.
Quote from: Orphan81;1129652
Come on man. You can't really tell me you believe Force Lightning is "non-lethal". That's just a disingenuous argument there. The shit was so powerful we could see Darth Vader's skeleton in flashes while he was being hit by it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129656
I will agree on this point. Force Lightning even as 'Non-lethal' is effectively torture.
This is not at all disingenuous. I think you're both stuck in the basic association that the Emperor used force lightning, therefore anyone who uses force lightning is the Emperor. There is some sort of movie logic that when an element is introduced, it is associated with the previous appearance. Say, since the first Rodian we see in the movies is a bounty hunter, therefore the whole species of Rodians are associated with bounty hunting.

But that's viewer logic based on the story of the movies. If we treat the setting as if it is it's own world, though, then these associations aren't necessarily true.


Force lightning *is* demonstrated as non-lethal. Luke took many blasts and was able to not just walk away, but help carry his huge father. I don't see how seeing someone's skeleton logically demonstrates anything about lethality. X-rays are non-lethal too.

As for force lightning being torture -- that's in how it is used. It is exactly parallel to a Taser here. Yes, being shocked by a Taser really fucking hurts, and repeatedly shocking someone who is down is torture. But that doesn't mean that the device itself is inherently an instrument of torture. Using a Taser shock instead of shooting someone with a bullet can be a more ethical alternative, to avoid lethal force.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 12, 2020, 01:53:40 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129680
As for force lightning being torture -- that's in how it is used.

This is a dumb literal materialistic interpretation of the force. Its space magic and in space magic its a bolt of hate. This isn't a Wizard using lightningbolt. Its evil negative poison energy.

This view that 'Darkside lightning is a taser' is a silly one.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 12, 2020, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: jhkim
As for force lightning being torture -- that's in how it is used.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129681
This is a dumb literal materialistic interpretation of the force. Its space magic and in space magic its a bolt of hate. This isn't a Wizard using lightningbolt. Its evil negative poison energy.

This view that 'Darkside lightning is a taser' is a silly one.
That's a different argument than you just made, though. And that was my intended point.

I agree that Lucas intended that the force lightning was a symbol of the Emperor's hate. But people then confuse this movie logic with actual morality.


This is my problem with the the prequel Jedi. We are told they represent light and goodness, so symbolically they are good, but their actual morality is horrible. Growing children in vats and assembly-line training them as soldiers is clearly a horrific act, yet none of the Jedi ever express this.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Orphan81 on May 12, 2020, 05:57:09 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129700
That's a different argument than you just made, though. And that was my intended point.

I agree that Lucas intended that the force lightning was a symbol of the Emperor's hate. But people then confuse this movie logic with actual morality.


This is my problem with the the prequel Jedi. We are told they represent light and goodness, so symbolically they are good, but their actual morality is horrible. Growing children in vats and assembly-line training them as soldiers is clearly a horrific act, yet none of the Jedi ever express this.

Jesus Christ Jhkim, this is one of the reasons you can be so fucking infuriating to debate with. You're attempting to put your own interpretation and logic, on the rules of the setting. It doesn't work that way. Force Lighting is Lethal, it is evil, it is poison. It's not a Non-lethal torture attack. Darth Vader stood up to it, because he's tough. When Mace Windu deflected Palapatine's own lightning back at him, it horrifically scarred his body and gave him the melting wrinkle looks he's known for.

Fuck sake man.. Here's your "Non-lethal" Force Lightning in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVy5MMl6puA
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 12, 2020, 06:44:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129700
This is my problem with the the prequel Jedi. We are told they represent light and goodness, so symbolically they are good, but their actual morality is horrible. Growing children in vats and assembly-line training them as soldiers is clearly a horrific act, yet none of the Jedi ever express this.

And I agreed with you on this point. I think this could have been intentional but bungled in implimentation.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 12, 2020, 06:58:20 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129722
Jesus Christ Jhkim, this is one of the reasons you can be so fucking infuriating to debate with. You're attempting to put your own interpretation and logic, on the rules of the setting. It doesn't work that way. Force Lighting is Lethal, it is evil, it is poison. It's not a Non-lethal torture attack. Darth Vader stood up to it, because he's tough. When Mace Windu deflected Palapatine's own lightning back at him, it horrifically scarred his body and gave him the melting wrinkle looks he's known for.

Fuck sake man.. Here's your "Non-lethal" Force Lightning in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVy5MMl6puA
OK, fair enough. I had forgotten about that example from The Rise of Skywalker. Force lightning can come in different power levels, and when powerful enough I agree that it can kill.  Still, it *can* be a non-lethal attack. It's not just Vader that survived it. Luke was subjected to force lightning repeatedly, without crippling or scarring him.

I accept that the filmmaker's intent is that force lightning symbolizes hatred and evil, but the point is that it's a magical association -- not actual morality. Even using a lethal attack isn't inherently evil. The Jedi use lethal attacks all the time, and characters in myth and fiction often use lightning for good -- from Thor to the Thunderbird.

My issue is that you had cited force lightning as a demonstration that the Dark Side is evil, as if it showed from their evil from an objective view -- when it's just a symbolic association.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 12, 2020, 07:12:45 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129751
My issue is that you had cited force lightning as a demonstration that the Dark Side is evil, as if it showed from their evil from an objective view -- when it's just a symbolic association.

This is a stupidly literalist interpretation of cinema. Unless you believe that in a film the characters should state objective reality out loud, using symbology is a shorthand for conveying such information.

Should the Emperor had said: 'And my evil lightning bolts will cause you to experience a pain uncomparable! Its totally poisoning your objectively existing force soul with my evil magic!'

You have to assume that good and evil are objective forces in the star wars universe as its base premise.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 13, 2020, 03:16:52 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1129680

Force lightning *is* demonstrated as non-lethal. Luke took many blasts and was able to not just walk away, but help carry his huge father. I don't see how seeing someone's skeleton logically demonstrates anything about lethality. X-rays are non-lethal too.


If enough x-rays are projected at you from across a room that I can see your skeleton glow through your armored clothing and body with my naked eyes then I can assure you, that exposure would be quite lethal. In fact, I probably picked up a not-so-healthy dose just witnessing it...
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Orphan81 on May 13, 2020, 07:26:34 AM
You have to accept the rules put forward in the setting of the world, to judge them within the context of the world itself. You can't apply outside morality to make an inworld judgement. Sure, on the face of it as well, the fact Jedi basically use Child Soldiers, taking their Padawans with them into dangerous situations would be considered horrible by real world standards.

But then we don't live in a world where people are born with magical powers that can hurt everyone around them... and Where the Forces of Good and Evil are tangible.

We know in the rules of the world as it's established, Jedi are Good and Sith are bad.

We also know from Primary Sources, Jedi were celibate, and with the EU wiped out and the new Trilogy being established, Luke kept that practice going. Leia while obviously learning how to use her Force Powers, never actually became a full fledged Jedi like her brother. She also never used her Force abilities except in cases of extreme emergency.

Now when the EU is brought in, things get all kinds of weird and different, with even different Graded levels of Canon for them, but that's neither here nor there. Just going with the Primary Sources, this is what we know.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2020, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129808
We also know from Primary Sources, Jedi were celibate,

My original question! What primary source says that they were celibate?
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 13, 2020, 12:39:59 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129838
My original question! What primary source says that they were celibate?
The ban on romantic attachments and marriage is explicit in Attack of the Clones.

As far as casual sex, it's not explicitly stated in the films that it is forbidden -- but it's strongly implied. Not only do the other Jedi not show any interest in getting some, but they are all oblivious to the blatant sexual attraction between Padme and Anakin. It also goes against the tenor of their teaching of detachment, and doesn't fit the model of Shaolin monks that they are patterned on.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 13, 2020, 12:51:16 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1129842
The ban on romantic attachments and marriage is explicit in Attack of the Clones.

As far as casual sex, it's not explicitly stated in the films that it is forbidden -- but it's strongly implied. Not only do the other Jedi not show any interest in getting some, but they are all oblivious to the blatant sexual attraction between Padme and Anakin. It also goes against the tenor of their teaching of detachment, and doesn't fit the model of Shaolin monks that they are patterned on.

Yeah, but Lucas cherry picked a lot of stuff to make the Jedi, not just eastern religions.

All this vagueness brings up another question I have. What happens when a Jedi quits?

We see Dooku left the Jedi, he kept his force powers and didn't even turn in his lightsaber. There's no mention the Jedi prohibit a member from leaving, or that they'd go after a member who leaves.

What's to stop a Jedi from hitting 35 and saying "Eh, this was great, but I'm moving on. Turns out I do want a family after all. Thanks for the training!"
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 13, 2020, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129844
What's to stop a Jedi from hitting 35 and saying "Eh, this was great, but I'm moving on. Turns out I do want a family after all. Thanks for the training!"

Jedi Brainwashing and isolationism. I like to imagine they spiked the food with anti-puberty pills or used the force to cloud their minds.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on May 13, 2020, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129844
All this vagueness brings up another question I have. What happens when a Jedi quits?

We see Dooku left the Jedi, he kept his force powers and didn't even turn in his lightsaber. There's no mention the Jedi prohibit a member from leaving, or that they'd go after a member who leaves."

  There's a deleted scene from AotC and some supplemental material that goes into it--if you leave in good standing (as opposed to falling to the Dark Side or washing out of training), you get numbered among 'the Lost' and remembered with a certain reverence, even getting a bust in the Archives. Apparently there are only twenty such Jedi (counting Dooku) in history, although it's never been clear if that applies to the whole Order or just to Masters.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 13, 2020, 05:54:21 PM
That is part of the problem really. There is so much contradictory material that there is no way to sort it out. You have to cut off one or more of the hydras heads.

Same with Star Trek at this point. Its become a contradictory mess well into TNG and writer comments just fuck things up even more.
Transporters KILL you.
Transporters dont kill you.
Transporters can copy you.
Transporters cant rejuvinate you.
Transporters can recreate you. (which kills the old you)
And so on.
And thats just the damn transporter!

Can jedi fire the force mega smasher from their chests by screaming "GUYVERRRRR!" ? Odds are its been done in one of the damn books or comics, or will be soon.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 13, 2020, 05:58:34 PM
Quote from: Omega;1129880
Can jedi fire the force mega smasher from their chests by screaming "GUYVERRRRR!" ? Odds are its been done in one of the damn books or comics, or will be soon.

No joke one of my pasttimes is ranomly typing a sci fi comcept into the star wars wiki to see if its in star wars.

I typed in 'Winged Cat people'.....There are winged cat people.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 14, 2020, 12:15:37 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1129854
There's a deleted scene from AotC and some supplemental material that goes into it--if you leave in good standing (as opposed to falling to the Dark Side or washing out of training), you get numbered among 'the Lost' and remembered with a certain reverence, even getting a bust in the Archives. Apparently there are only twenty such Jedi (counting Dooku) in history, although it's never been clear if that applies to the whole Order or just to Masters.


Interesting! I found it, BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX5Na9gcDz0
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 14, 2020, 04:40:35 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129844
All this vagueness brings up another question I have. What happens when a Jedi quits?

In Star Wars: The Clone Wars, Anakin's apprentice Ahsoka Tano quits the Jedi Order. This happened before she became a full-fledged Jedi, but she is for all intents and purposes fully trained.

I haven't watched the new Clone Wars stuff off of Disney Plus, or tracked down all her appearances in comics, but as far as I know, the short answer is that the Jedi let her go.

This was done primarily to explain why Ahsoka doesn't appear in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (she was created after the movie), and to allow the character to survive Order 66.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: jhkim on May 14, 2020, 05:18:27 PM
Quote from: Orphan81;1129808
You have to accept the rules put forward in the setting of the world, to judge them within the context of the world itself. You can't apply outside morality to make an inworld judgement. Sure, on the face of it as well, the fact Jedi basically use Child Soldiers, taking their Padawans with them into dangerous situations would be considered horrible by real world standards.

But then we don't live in a world where people are born with magical powers that can hurt everyone around them... and Where the Forces of Good and Evil are tangible.

We know in the rules of the world as it's established, Jedi are Good and Sith are bad.
The internal morality of the prequels isn't even consistent in the slightest. The Jedi are implied to be flawed in some way, but it's unclear what the right policies and choices are supposed to be.

Crucially, the Jedi claim to support democracy, but democracy in the setting is portrayed as dysfunctional. Both Sidious and the Separatists are more popular and successful at democratic negotiation than the Jedi. The Jedi never successfully turn public opinion against any of Gunray, Dooku, Grievous, or Palpatine. When the Separatists appear to be gaining popularity, their solution is always to try to kill the Separatist leader rather than to help people and win more allies to their side. When it is revealed that Palpatine is a Sith, rather than try to get him democratically impeached, they try to assassinate him. It's not even clear that this is their flaw -- it seems implied that allowing them to speak freely would allow them to gain more allies and grow in popularity, so it's best that they be silenced by force.

Even if the setting were consistent, though, that doesn't mean that I can't or shouldn't call out what I'm seeing in real world terms. For example, within the setting, Jar Jar is a popular lovable skamp, whose political speech was well received. That doesn't mean I have to regard him that way, though -- either in a Star Wars game or in how I talk about him.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Warder on May 15, 2020, 03:32:46 PM
My question would be why didnt the Jedi just go to sperm banks to create force sensitive offspring with no ties to them, to be raised by some foster families. They had clone troopers, why didnt they clone Jedi themselves, why not alien hybrids with super usefull battle utility? I guess they were strepped for time and the vanilla version was just the fastest way to get the buyer happy.

Back to the Jedi question, im pretty sure nobody cared if the Sith were celibate. Why didnt they just drown the galaxy in their disciples? Since im not that familiar with star wars lore its possible it has been covered already. Yes, i know''There are always two, Master and Apprentice''. The clone trooper army was probably what the evil Sith wanted to use as fodder. But i dont believe that doing a big purge with the help of force sensitive dark side users was never considered. I mean its just a matter of numbers.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2020, 06:35:58 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129884
No joke one of my pasttimes is ranomly typing a sci fi comcept into the star wars wiki to see if its in star wars.

I typed in 'Winged Cat people'.....There are winged cat people.

Try "green carnivorous rabbit people" or "Don Quixote".
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 15, 2020, 06:44:58 PM
Quote from: Warder;1130082
My question would be why didnt the Jedi just go to sperm banks to create force sensitive offspring with no ties to them, to be raised by some foster families. They had clone troopers, why didnt they clone Jedi themselves, why not alien hybrids with super usefull battle utility? I guess they were strepped for time and the vanilla version was just the fastest way to get the buyer happy.

Been tried in various media and seems to invariably fail in some disastrous and/or horrific way. Its "unnatural" which seems to be something the force shies away from. The sith just dont care and have played with cloning and breeding pogroms willy nilly.

Pretty much anything we think hasnt been done in Star Wars. Probably HAS been done at some point in some form.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 17, 2020, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: Warder;1130082
My question would be why didnt the Jedi just go to sperm banks to create force sensitive offspring with no ties to them, to be raised by some foster families. They had clone troopers, why didnt they clone Jedi themselves, why not alien hybrids with super usefull battle utility? I guess they were strepped for time and the vanilla version was just the fastest way to get the buyer happy.

Power? Domination? A Jedi seeks not these things. ;)

They were maneuvered into accepting the clone army in the first place, with much misgivings.

Quote
Back to the Jedi question, im pretty sure nobody cared if the Sith were celibate. Why didnt they just drown the galaxy in their disciples? Since im not that familiar with star wars lore its possible it has been covered already. Yes, i know''There are always two, Master and Apprentice''. The clone trooper army was probably what the evil Sith wanted to use as fodder. But i dont believe that doing a big purge with the help of force sensitive dark side users was never considered. I mean its just a matter of numbers.

The official quote is that the Sith don't spam out disciples because they don't want to share power. But that's during the Clone Wars. I've seen things in Legends where there were armies of evil force users. Star Wars: Legacy had something like that.

I think the standard Sith methodology is to have regular armies with the Sith installed as their overlords.

In Star Wars: Rebels, the Empire employed a cadre of Inquisitors, who were below the level of a true Sith Lord, but useful for terrorizing the population and murdering any fledgling force users that manifested.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 17, 2020, 05:15:54 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1130301
I think the standard Sith methodology is to have regular armies with the Sith installed as their overlords.

Which is fitting in a Sauron/Saruman evil wizard and his army of minions way.

Quote
In Star Wars: Rebels, the Empire employed a cadre of Inquisitors, who were below the level of a true Sith Lord, but useful for terrorizing the population and murdering any fledgling force users that manifested.

I liked the Inquisitors from a gaming standpoint. It meant we could have lesser evil force dudes for the PCs to contend with.

Not fond of the flying saber thing.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OblongFinishedBirdofparadise-size_restricted.gif)

It's a striking image, but damn goofy at the same time.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 17, 2020, 11:26:12 PM
Its a strikingly stupid image...
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 18, 2020, 06:09:54 AM
Quote from: Omega;1130410
Its a strikingly stupid image...

I suggested to someone that they make an Inquisitor that uses one of those spin-bladed double sabers in each hand and goes in "Full Osprey." He was not amused.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Lurkndog on May 18, 2020, 10:40:40 AM
Oh, I agree about the helicopter lightsabers.

There was a great bit at the end of Rebels Season 1 where the Inquisitor does his rotating blade gimmick, and Kanan simply thrusts into the hub. Chopped off one of the blades, and put an end to that nonsense real quick.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Pat on May 18, 2020, 11:25:55 AM
It might be interesting to consider the force users from a population dynamic standpoint. With one master, one disciple and the Skywalker legacy, the movies represent the population after a crash. The number of force users almost went extinct, which might be a natural historical cycle. Force use spreads in the population until it reaches a critical level, and then they turn on each other. Horrible infighting, splitting into factions like the Jedi and Sith, and wars of extinction as the most powerful consolidate power and wipe out the rest. Then there's a population bottleneck, followed by a new flowering until a critical mass is achieved again, and the cycle repeats.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 18, 2020, 03:28:03 PM
Quote from: Pat;1130465
It might be interesting to consider the force users from a population dynamic standpoint. With one master, one disciple and the Skywalker legacy, the movies represent the population after a crash. The number of force users almost went extinct, which might be a natural historical cycle. Force use spreads in the population until it reaches a critical level, and then they turn on each other. Horrible infighting, splitting into factions like the Jedi and Sith, and wars of extinction as the most powerful consolidate power and wipe out the rest. Then there's a population bottleneck, followed by a new flowering until a critical mass is achieved again, and the cycle repeats.

As I said, in the EU universe the force is a horrible curse.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 21, 2020, 01:28:54 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1130438
I suggested to someone that they make an Inquisitor that uses one of those spin-bladed double sabers in each hand and goes in "Full Osprey." He was not amused.

no no no! They have to hold one in their hands and one with their feet so can go full Chinook. :D
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Omega on May 21, 2020, 01:32:33 AM
Quote from: Pat;1130465
It might be interesting to consider the force users from a population dynamic standpoint. With one master, one disciple and the Skywalker legacy, the movies represent the population after a crash. The number of force users almost went extinct, which might be a natural historical cycle. Force use spreads in the population until it reaches a critical level, and then they turn on each other. Horrible infighting, splitting into factions like the Jedi and Sith, and wars of extinction as the most powerful consolidate power and wipe out the rest. Then there's a population bottleneck, followed by a new flowering until a critical mass is achieved again, and the cycle repeats.

All indicators is that it doesnt work that way. Yes there are bloodlines. But the greater majority seem to just spring up on their own. And that the Force can, and will make more if it deems so.
Title: Were the Jedi celibate?
Post by: Pat on May 21, 2020, 08:28:26 AM
Quote from: Omega;1130796
All indicators is that it doesnt work that way. Yes there are bloodlines. But the greater majority seem to just spring up on their own. And that the Force can, and will make more if it deems so.

The idea's not really based on any of that. It's not incompatible with force users springing up spontaneously, and doesn't need bloodlines or descent. All it requires is population booms and crashes. Which could, if you want, be based on the will of the Force. The cycles might have some greater spiritual meaning, anything from the necessity of change, to a crucible or test.