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Author Topic: Were the Jedi celibate?  (Read 3415 times)

jhkim

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2020, 01:44:51 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129642
This is something I found bizarre about interpretations of the Force. Apparently chopping someone in half isn't considered dark or destructive, but tasing someone with a non-lethal zap is considered inherently evil?!? What's up with that? I get that the *character* of the Emperor is evil, but just like light sabers or anything else -- I would think that the morality of Force use is in what is done with it.
Quote from: Orphan81;1129652
Come on man. You can't really tell me you believe Force Lightning is "non-lethal". That's just a disingenuous argument there. The shit was so powerful we could see Darth Vader's skeleton in flashes while he was being hit by it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129656
I will agree on this point. Force Lightning even as 'Non-lethal' is effectively torture.
This is not at all disingenuous. I think you're both stuck in the basic association that the Emperor used force lightning, therefore anyone who uses force lightning is the Emperor. There is some sort of movie logic that when an element is introduced, it is associated with the previous appearance. Say, since the first Rodian we see in the movies is a bounty hunter, therefore the whole species of Rodians are associated with bounty hunting.

But that's viewer logic based on the story of the movies. If we treat the setting as if it is it's own world, though, then these associations aren't necessarily true.


Force lightning *is* demonstrated as non-lethal. Luke took many blasts and was able to not just walk away, but help carry his huge father. I don't see how seeing someone's skeleton logically demonstrates anything about lethality. X-rays are non-lethal too.

As for force lightning being torture -- that's in how it is used. It is exactly parallel to a Taser here. Yes, being shocked by a Taser really fucking hurts, and repeatedly shocking someone who is down is torture. But that doesn't mean that the device itself is inherently an instrument of torture. Using a Taser shock instead of shooting someone with a bullet can be a more ethical alternative, to avoid lethal force.

Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2020, 01:53:40 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129680
As for force lightning being torture -- that's in how it is used.

This is a dumb literal materialistic interpretation of the force. Its space magic and in space magic its a bolt of hate. This isn't a Wizard using lightningbolt. Its evil negative poison energy.

This view that 'Darkside lightning is a taser' is a silly one.

jhkim

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2020, 04:38:40 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
As for force lightning being torture -- that's in how it is used.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1129681
This is a dumb literal materialistic interpretation of the force. Its space magic and in space magic its a bolt of hate. This isn't a Wizard using lightningbolt. Its evil negative poison energy.

This view that 'Darkside lightning is a taser' is a silly one.
That's a different argument than you just made, though. And that was my intended point.

I agree that Lucas intended that the force lightning was a symbol of the Emperor's hate. But people then confuse this movie logic with actual morality.


This is my problem with the the prequel Jedi. We are told they represent light and goodness, so symbolically they are good, but their actual morality is horrible. Growing children in vats and assembly-line training them as soldiers is clearly a horrific act, yet none of the Jedi ever express this.

Orphan81

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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2020, 05:57:09 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129700
That's a different argument than you just made, though. And that was my intended point.

I agree that Lucas intended that the force lightning was a symbol of the Emperor's hate. But people then confuse this movie logic with actual morality.


This is my problem with the the prequel Jedi. We are told they represent light and goodness, so symbolically they are good, but their actual morality is horrible. Growing children in vats and assembly-line training them as soldiers is clearly a horrific act, yet none of the Jedi ever express this.

Jesus Christ Jhkim, this is one of the reasons you can be so fucking infuriating to debate with. You're attempting to put your own interpretation and logic, on the rules of the setting. It doesn't work that way. Force Lighting is Lethal, it is evil, it is poison. It's not a Non-lethal torture attack. Darth Vader stood up to it, because he's tough. When Mace Windu deflected Palapatine's own lightning back at him, it horrifically scarred his body and gave him the melting wrinkle looks he's known for.

Fuck sake man.. Here's your "Non-lethal" Force Lightning in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVy5MMl6puA

Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2020, 06:44:28 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129700
This is my problem with the the prequel Jedi. We are told they represent light and goodness, so symbolically they are good, but their actual morality is horrible. Growing children in vats and assembly-line training them as soldiers is clearly a horrific act, yet none of the Jedi ever express this.

And I agreed with you on this point. I think this could have been intentional but bungled in implimentation.

jhkim

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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2020, 06:58:20 PM »
Quote from: Orphan81;1129722
Jesus Christ Jhkim, this is one of the reasons you can be so fucking infuriating to debate with. You're attempting to put your own interpretation and logic, on the rules of the setting. It doesn't work that way. Force Lighting is Lethal, it is evil, it is poison. It's not a Non-lethal torture attack. Darth Vader stood up to it, because he's tough. When Mace Windu deflected Palapatine's own lightning back at him, it horrifically scarred his body and gave him the melting wrinkle looks he's known for.

Fuck sake man.. Here's your "Non-lethal" Force Lightning in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVy5MMl6puA
OK, fair enough. I had forgotten about that example from The Rise of Skywalker. Force lightning can come in different power levels, and when powerful enough I agree that it can kill.  Still, it *can* be a non-lethal attack. It's not just Vader that survived it. Luke was subjected to force lightning repeatedly, without crippling or scarring him.

I accept that the filmmaker's intent is that force lightning symbolizes hatred and evil, but the point is that it's a magical association -- not actual morality. Even using a lethal attack isn't inherently evil. The Jedi use lethal attacks all the time, and characters in myth and fiction often use lightning for good -- from Thor to the Thunderbird.

My issue is that you had cited force lightning as a demonstration that the Dark Side is evil, as if it showed from their evil from an objective view -- when it's just a symbolic association.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2020, 07:12:45 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129751
My issue is that you had cited force lightning as a demonstration that the Dark Side is evil, as if it showed from their evil from an objective view -- when it's just a symbolic association.

This is a stupidly literalist interpretation of cinema. Unless you believe that in a film the characters should state objective reality out loud, using symbology is a shorthand for conveying such information.

Should the Emperor had said: 'And my evil lightning bolts will cause you to experience a pain uncomparable! Its totally poisoning your objectively existing force soul with my evil magic!'

You have to assume that good and evil are objective forces in the star wars universe as its base premise.

HappyDaze

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« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2020, 03:16:52 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129680

Force lightning *is* demonstrated as non-lethal. Luke took many blasts and was able to not just walk away, but help carry his huge father. I don't see how seeing someone's skeleton logically demonstrates anything about lethality. X-rays are non-lethal too.


If enough x-rays are projected at you from across a room that I can see your skeleton glow through your armored clothing and body with my naked eyes then I can assure you, that exposure would be quite lethal. In fact, I probably picked up a not-so-healthy dose just witnessing it...

Orphan81

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2020, 07:26:34 AM »
You have to accept the rules put forward in the setting of the world, to judge them within the context of the world itself. You can't apply outside morality to make an inworld judgement. Sure, on the face of it as well, the fact Jedi basically use Child Soldiers, taking their Padawans with them into dangerous situations would be considered horrible by real world standards.

But then we don't live in a world where people are born with magical powers that can hurt everyone around them... and Where the Forces of Good and Evil are tangible.

We know in the rules of the world as it's established, Jedi are Good and Sith are bad.

We also know from Primary Sources, Jedi were celibate, and with the EU wiped out and the new Trilogy being established, Luke kept that practice going. Leia while obviously learning how to use her Force Powers, never actually became a full fledged Jedi like her brother. She also never used her Force abilities except in cases of extreme emergency.

Now when the EU is brought in, things get all kinds of weird and different, with even different Graded levels of Canon for them, but that's neither here nor there. Just going with the Primary Sources, this is what we know.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2020, 11:55:51 AM »
Quote from: Orphan81;1129808
We also know from Primary Sources, Jedi were celibate,

My original question! What primary source says that they were celibate?
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jhkim

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« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2020, 12:39:59 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129838
My original question! What primary source says that they were celibate?
The ban on romantic attachments and marriage is explicit in Attack of the Clones.

As far as casual sex, it's not explicitly stated in the films that it is forbidden -- but it's strongly implied. Not only do the other Jedi not show any interest in getting some, but they are all oblivious to the blatant sexual attraction between Padme and Anakin. It also goes against the tenor of their teaching of detachment, and doesn't fit the model of Shaolin monks that they are patterned on.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2020, 12:51:16 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1129842
The ban on romantic attachments and marriage is explicit in Attack of the Clones.

As far as casual sex, it's not explicitly stated in the films that it is forbidden -- but it's strongly implied. Not only do the other Jedi not show any interest in getting some, but they are all oblivious to the blatant sexual attraction between Padme and Anakin. It also goes against the tenor of their teaching of detachment, and doesn't fit the model of Shaolin monks that they are patterned on.

Yeah, but Lucas cherry picked a lot of stuff to make the Jedi, not just eastern religions.

All this vagueness brings up another question I have. What happens when a Jedi quits?

We see Dooku left the Jedi, he kept his force powers and didn't even turn in his lightsaber. There's no mention the Jedi prohibit a member from leaving, or that they'd go after a member who leaves.

What's to stop a Jedi from hitting 35 and saying "Eh, this was great, but I'm moving on. Turns out I do want a family after all. Thanks for the training!"
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 01:04:09 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Shrieking Banshee

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Were the Jedi celibate?
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2020, 01:21:10 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129844
What's to stop a Jedi from hitting 35 and saying "Eh, this was great, but I'm moving on. Turns out I do want a family after all. Thanks for the training!"

Jedi Brainwashing and isolationism. I like to imagine they spiked the food with anti-puberty pills or used the force to cloud their minds.

Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2020, 02:18:56 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129844
All this vagueness brings up another question I have. What happens when a Jedi quits?

We see Dooku left the Jedi, he kept his force powers and didn't even turn in his lightsaber. There's no mention the Jedi prohibit a member from leaving, or that they'd go after a member who leaves."

  There's a deleted scene from AotC and some supplemental material that goes into it--if you leave in good standing (as opposed to falling to the Dark Side or washing out of training), you get numbered among 'the Lost' and remembered with a certain reverence, even getting a bust in the Archives. Apparently there are only twenty such Jedi (counting Dooku) in history, although it's never been clear if that applies to the whole Order or just to Masters.

Omega

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« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2020, 05:54:21 PM »
That is part of the problem really. There is so much contradictory material that there is no way to sort it out. You have to cut off one or more of the hydras heads.

Same with Star Trek at this point. Its become a contradictory mess well into TNG and writer comments just fuck things up even more.
Transporters KILL you.
Transporters dont kill you.
Transporters can copy you.
Transporters cant rejuvinate you.
Transporters can recreate you. (which kills the old you)
And so on.
And thats just the damn transporter!

Can jedi fire the force mega smasher from their chests by screaming "GUYVERRRRR!" ? Odds are its been done in one of the damn books or comics, or will be soon.