Quote from: John Morrow*snip a shole lot of lunatic yammering*

wow.  What a whole load of bollocks that doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with anything anyone was talking about.  

This ladies and gentlemen, is a textbook example of what is known as "the smokescreen".

In today's example, notice how the poster has thrown everytihng from unrelated issues, inflammatory stereotypes, partisan talking points, and just plain bollocks, all at once, in the hopes of derailing any attempt at a reasonable conversation.

A fascinating performance, but also a cautionary one.

Quote from: J Arcanewow.  What a whole load of bollocks that doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with anything anyone was talking about.

So what exactly were you talking about?  How horrible it is that recruiters use marketing techniques to get 17 year-olds to think about a career in the Air Force?

Quote from: J ArcaneThis ladies and gentlemen, is a textbook example of what is known as "the smokescreen".

And talking about them going off and getting blown up by IEDs wasn't a texbook appeal to emotion?  No, that wasn't a partisan talking point at all, right?

Quote from: J ArcaneIn today's example, notice how the poster has thrown everytihng from unrelated issues, inflammatory stereotypes, partisan talking points, and just plain bollocks, all at once, in the hopes of derailing any attempt at a reasonable conversation.

And what exactly were you trying to accomplish with your "reasonable conversation"?  You pointed out that something makes you uncomfortable.  I said that I don't see it as being all that different than marketing anything else to those kids.  You whipped out the IEDs.  I saw your IEDs and raised you some inflamatory stereotypes and partisan rhetoric.  

And while I certainly evoked some stereotypes, I'm quite serious about the overall argument I was making about colleges.  Perhaps you've never talked to a parent with no equity left in their house and no savings or a recent graduate looking at tens of thousands of dollars of debt.  But you'll notice that they never talk about that in those shiny brochures that they send out to underage kids each year.

Quote from: J ArcaneA fascinating performance, but also a cautionary one.

And what, exactly, is it supposed to caution about?

By the way, people should notice the key word "partisan" above.  That's a key word that indicates that we're really having a crypto-political debate without coming out and actually saying so.

Quote from: KoltarYou're expecting J. Arcane to make sense??

If they're old enough to drive a car and get into R-rated movies then talking to a recruiter is not that big a deal.


- Ed C.

Yes, they can talk to a recruiter, but they cannot enlist until they are 18 (legal adult) without special permission from their parents.

1)  If the game is not rated for 17 year olds, which the store manager implied, the Air Force broke the law.  Fuck the recruiting, they just plain did something illegal.

2)  "I was warned when I got to New Hampshire that it was a very liberal, not exactly pro-military environment" commented the Staff Sergeant.

Obviously, the people who briefed him, like so many others, cannot tell the difference between New Hampshire and Vermont.

Quote from: Old Geezer1)  If the game is not rated for 17 year olds, which the store manager implied, the Air Force broke the law.  Fuck the recruiting, they just plain did something illegal.

2)  "I was warned when I got to New Hampshire that it was a very liberal, not exactly pro-military environment" commented the Staff Sergeant.

Obviously, the people who briefed him, like so many others, cannot tell the difference between New Hampshire and Vermont.

Incorrect. Game ratings are stictly voluntary measures instituited by game companies with no force of law behind them. Ironically, this is pretty much the same as movie ratings, though the Gubemint does care if someone takes your kids to an X rated movie... though not because you violated rating regulations.


Oh, and please enlighten me what the difference between New Hampshire and Vermont is, I'm a Midwesterner who has migrated west, not east. Don't talk crypto-geography to me, mister!

Wow.

My father served in the Air Force for 22 years in combat and noncombat capacities.  The last decade or so of this time, he was the local Air Force recruiter.  These kinds of stunts are things he would never pull, and in fact most recruiters looked down on that sort of thing (trawling mall parking lots, etc.).  And he never BS'd the kids that came to his office; he would pointedly remind them what they might be in for if they joined the service.  And he missed his quota; in fact, he regularly garnered awards for top performance in his district.

Of course, this was in the early-to-mid-eighties, when we had the Cold War and a big bear of an enemy in the Soviet Union.  The military wasn't seen in the same light it is now.

While I have a lot of respect for the military in this country and understand that they have to make up for recruiting shortfalls, I'd say that this guy's tactics are pretty slimy.  There's nothing immoral about recruiting people into the armed services, but at least do it with some dignity.

Quote from: KenHRWhile I have a lot of respect for the military in this country and understand that they have to make up for recruiting shortfalls, I'd say that this guy's tactics are pretty slimy.  There's nothing immoral about recruiting people into the armed services, but at least do it with some dignity.

OK.  I think that's a useful critique.  Can you be a bit more specific about why you find this slimy?  Is it in the same sense that telemarketers, door-to-door salesmen, and other marketers who approach people in mall parking lots can be seen as slimy or is it something specifically because this is military recruitment?

Quote from: KenHRWhile I have a lot of respect for the military in this country and understand that they have to make up for recruiting shortfalls, I'd say that this guy's tactics are pretty slimy.  There's nothing immoral about recruiting people into the armed services, but at least do it with some dignity.

Dignity? Have you been keeping up with our culture these last, oh, 20 years? There's no dignity anymore, especially among the young. If they saw a standard recruiter using the standard line, they wouldn't give him the time of day. But by tryin' ta "keep it real!" (and by bribing them with free stuff) they at least get a once-over.

Damn kids. Get off mah lawn. And pull your pants up. And quit with all that hip-hoppin'. And respect girls. And go outside and get some fresh air.

Quote from: WerekoalaDamn kids. Get off mah lawn. And pull your pants up. And quit with all that hip-hoppin'. And respect girls. And go outside and get some fresh air.

What makes it all the more frightening is that they'll be the ones taking care of you in the nursing home.

Quote from: John MorrowOK.  I think that's a useful critique.  Can you be a bit more specific about why you find this slimy?  Is it in the same sense that telemarketers, door-to-door salesmen, and other marketers who approach people in mall parking lots can be seen as slimy or is it something specifically because this is military recruitment?

A little of both, I think.  It cheapens the "product" they're trying to sell.  It also implies a lot about their sales pitch, and that's the truly scary part.

See, the building where my father worked had recruiting offices for all four branches.  I remember quite a few times him talking about the Army guys selling kids on promises of adventure and/or free education.  They would downplay the whole messy bit of what would happen should the United States actually, you know, become engaged in an armed conflict.  Which, granted, is part of sales, but they were selling these kids a very romantic package that had nothing to do with the reality.  Again, I remember many times spending the day with my father at his office, and hearing his talks with prospects; he was very up front about what would be expected from people in the military if the shit ever hit the fan.

Now, you could say that the kids talking to the recruiter should have an idea of what they're getting into (this is the military, after all).  And you'd be right to an extent.  But the snake oil sales pitch can make people doubt themselves, and they play right into the recruiter's hands.  I don't think I'm explaining this bit well.

Anyway, if you're still reading...to bring it back to the original question, these guys are trying to sell these FPS gamer kids on a life in the military.  Nothing wrong with that in and of itself.  But it looks like they're taking the local rock radio station approach.  I wouldn't doubt that guy is trying to make it all seem like a grand adventure and everyone will be piloting F-16s (oh, wait, we don't use those anymore, do we?), etc.

I believe in honesty as a salesperson.  I'm in sales, and I make my goals by being honest.  It builds client loyalty, gets me referrals, and I can show my face to my clients without being embarrassed after I've sold them my product.  This guy doesn't seem to be playing the game honestly.

Quote from: John MorrowWhat makes it all the more frightening is that they'll be the ones taking care of you in the nursing home.

I've always said that I hope that either a) the Revolution comes while I'm still young enough to take some of them with me or b) after I'm dead, because the idea of laying helplessly in a bed while some punk clubs me to death with a baseball bat isn't appealing in the least.

I had a recruiter who reminds me of you description of your dad Ken, a straight shooter. A lot of kids complained over the years while I was in the Marine Corps about how their recruiter lied to them. For me it was the opposite experience-I was told just what being a grunt would entail, and why.

But I don't think having fun while you're selling something like this is wrong. My recruiter arranged for us, kids who had enlisted with me, do all sorts of things: rappelling, forced marches, firearms practices, and occasionally gatherings in which we just hung out as a bunch of guys.

It's got to be extra hard to sell the military during war, especially with wing nuts like Jenny Arcane running around like chicken little, and making it seem like the end is nigh.

Quote from: John MorrowHow do you feel about Microsoft advertising to people in the same demographic to get them to fork over $70 or so (not to mention substantially more for the special edition) for the game?

Quote from: John MorrowSo what do you think the military should do?  Actively discourage recruits, perhaps by posting pictures of victims of IEDs throughout their recruiting offices?

Marketing techniques like this are always slimy.  However, I consider it far worse to use when the stakes are people's lives rather than 70 bucks and a few hours.  

I don't think the military should be "marketing" at all in this sense.  If we can't get enough volunteer recruits by dignified and honest methods, then we should have compulsory military service like many other countries do.

Quote from: jhkimI don't think the military should be "marketing" at all in this sense.  If we can't get enough volunteer recruits by dignified and honest methods, then we should have compulsory military service like many other countries do.

Or tailor foreign policy to the limitations of a smaller army.

Quote from: jhkimI don't think the military should be "marketing" at all in this sense.  If we can't get enough volunteer recruits by dignified and honest methods, then we should have compulsory military service like many other countries do.

That is a very interesting take. I've heard people wax poetic about the value of compulsary service before, but this is the first time I've heard it suggested that it is preferrable to (scary word here...) marketing...

Contrast this to the Military's 'Pride' about being an 'all volunteer' force.  Marketing, in some form, is necessary to keep a reasonably sized force.  If you are opposed to the military in principle (as Jenny seems to be) then anything the military does to recruit is going to seem disturbing.