To answer the thread title : Yeah I notiiced, but I was at work most of the day .

 Besides I'd rather talk gaming then do another politics discussion that might wind up yet again seeming like a bunch of Tangency-poop.


- Ed C.

This was the main headline in every news outfit I read or watched today, but I didn't post about it here because I was busy working.

I agree with Pundit, by the way. The idea that Russia cares about minorities is laughable (see: Chechnya).

EDIT: Interesting resource.

Map of Georgia's South Ossetia.

Washington Post editorial:

QuoteStopping Russia

The U.S. and its allies must unite against Moscow's war on Georgia.

Saturday, August 9, 2008; Page A14

THE OUTBREAK of fighting between Russia and the former Soviet republic of Georgia was sudden but not surprising. Conflict has been brewing between Moscow and its tiny, pro-Western neighbor for months. The flashpoints are two breakaway Georgian provinces, Abkhazia and South Ossetia -- the latter being the scene of the latest fighting. The skirmishing and shelling around Georgian villages that prompted Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to launch an offensive against the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, may or may not have been a deliberate Russian provocation, to which Russia's tank and air assault was the inevitable follow-up.

Russian military probes, always denied b y Moscow, have been frequent in recent years. But certainly the deeper source of tension between the two countries is Russia's insistence on maintaining hegemony in the Caucasus. Georgia's democratically elected government has accepted U.S. military and economic aid, supported the mission in Iraq and pursued NATO membership. Moscow will not tolerate such independence -- even by a relatively poor country of just 4.6 million people.

At its summit in Bucharest, Romania, in April, NATO offered Georgia eventual membership. This was not the more concrete promise that Georgia and the Bush administration had wanted. But Tbilisi and Washington settled for less in deference to European NATO members who wanted to avoid inflaming Russia. It didn't work, because Moscow responded by increasing its ties to Abkhazia and South Ossetia, including by beefing up the "peacekeeping" forces it maintains in both regions under the settlement that concluded Moscow-backed secessionist wars in the early 1990s. Even before these latest maneuvers, Russia had issued passports to most inhabitants of the two breakaway regions, which is why it claims to be defending its own people now.

It's doubtful, though not unthinkable, that Russia plans to conquer all of Georgia. But its objectives are no less cynical for that. Simply by keeping the country in a constant state of territorial division and conflict, it hopes to show NATO that Georgia is too unstable for membership -- thus giving Georgia no choice but to submit to Moscow's "influence." Probably Russia intends to administer a quick military "punishment" (as Russian President Dmitry Medvedev described Moscow's war aim) to Mr. Saakashvili, and then restore some version of the unstable status quo ante.

This is a grave challenge to the United States and Europe. Ideally, the U.N. Security Council would step in, authorizing a genuine peacekeeping force to replace the Russian one that has turned into a de facto occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But a Russian veto rules that out. Thus, the United States and its NATO allies must together impose a price on Russia if it does not promptly change course.

The principles at stake, including sovereignty and territorial integrity, apply well beyond the Caucasus. To abandon Georgia and its fragile democratic Rose Revolution would send a terrible signal to other former Soviet and Warsaw Pact republics that to Moscow's dismay have achieved or are working toward democracy and fully independent foreign policies. The West has made that sort of mistake before and must not do so again.

Quote from: gleichman;233637http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

I guess not, or maybe it's just that no one cares. I'm rather old fashion, and tend to take notice when a nuclear power invades or attacks another nation.

Georgia's not a nuclear power:

"Georgia, a former Soviet state, sent troops into South Ossetia on Thursday, aiming to crack down on the separatists, who want independence or unification with North Ossetia, which is in Russia. Russia responded Friday, sending troops into the Georgian province where it had peacekeepers stationed."

Edit: Y'all who oppose independence from Georgia for Ossetia, I take it you also opposed independence from Serbia for Kosovo?  Or is this just an anti-Russian thing?

The Russians are spearheading right into the center of Georgia, aimed at Tblisi. The Georgian president was practically pleading on CNN last night, and today it seems the whole government has fled the capital. How much do you want to bet the Russians are gonna bring up Grenada when it comes to excuses?

QuoteEdit: Y'all who oppose independence from Georgia for Ossetia, I take it you also opposed independence from Serbia for Kosovo? Or is this just an anti-Russian thing?

Kosovo emphatically was not being annexed by a bordering superpower. The map makes it clear where the border lies. Russia already issued passports to most of the ethnic Russians - either that's a incentive for them to go home or that's an infringement on Georgia's national sovereignty.

Imagine if Mexico was issuing passports to Texans who remained loyal to Mexico, then just said -aww, fuck it, let's invade. Oops, can't take it back...all these Mexicans living here must mean it was ours all along. To answer your question, it could be an anti-Russian thing. Then again, it could be just an anti-bullying thug thing.

Quote from: Kellri;233879Kosovo emphatically was not being annexed by a bordering superpower.

Yeah - Albania's not a superpower and the USA's not neighbouring.   I don't see why that makes any difference.  The West (USA & EU) have been on the offensive since the end of the Cold War and I'm sick of it, and sick of the hypocrisy about self determination and independence when who's entitled to independence depends purely on who's Western-backed and who's Russian-backed.

Quote from: Kellri;233879Imagine if Mexico was issuing passports to Texans who remained loyal to Mexico, then just said -aww, fuck it, let's invade.

Then that would be an issue for the US to deal with.  

The US bombed Serbia to detach Serbia from Kosovo, that's just as much bullying thug behaviour as anything the Russians have been doing in Georgia.  And Georgia is Russia's back yard; Kosovo is not the US's back yard.  Of course the Georgians are pleading on CNN, they're hoping for US military intervention against the Russians.

S'mon, did you notice the fighting has spread to the capital? Do you think after they've bombed the place into submission they'll help in the rebuilding? Saakashvili was quoted as saying "This is the worst nightmare one can encounter." That doesn't sound like a man playing at political banter. Would it help if you saw the bombs destroying his office as he sits there on-camera?

No body here is saying this kind of thing is cool - whether from the US, Russians, or Chinese. Its possible for any rational human being to look at the situation and see that it sucks for the Georgians and Bosnian Serbs and Tibetans alike.

Quotewho's entitled to independence depends purely on who's Western-backed and who's Russian-backed.

It helps to have friends, no doubt about it. No revolution that I can think of was ever successful without foreign aid, intervention or diplomatic support.

Oh fuck, this is bad... allmost seem like russians started slow proces of rebuilding soviet union...

I heard about it, and I think it sucks, but wanting to be the dominant/imperial power of Central Asia has been a part of Russia for a very long time.

Before you know it we'll be sending troops to the Crimea or something like that.

QuoteBefore you know it we'll be sending troops to the Crimea or something like that.

Hmmm...Cossacks have been reported to be mustering up for battle (no joke - Cossacks!). Maybe we'll see a Georgian Charge of the Light Brigade...."theirs is not to question why..."

Quote from: Kellri;233903Would it help if you saw the bombs destroying his office as he sits there on-camera?

I really wouldn't care either way.  I have no interest in Georgia and I think they were stupid to attack south Ossetia.  Even if the US does intervene to support them, even if Russia eventually abandons south Ossetia (unlikely in the foreseeable future), it won't have been worth it.  I was fooled by the Croats, Muslim Bosniaks and Albanian Kossovars, I'm through with being fooled by aggressors claiming the mantle of victimhood in search of NATO air support.

Quote from: S'mon;233867Georgia's not a nuclear power:

Just going by the map dude, on it Ossetia is part of Georgia and Russian troops (the nuclear power) have crossed that boarder.

Quote from: S'mon;233867Edit: Y'all who oppose independence from Georgia for Ossetia, I take it you also opposed independence from Serbia for Kosovo?  Or is this just an anti-Russian thing?

I don't oppose Independence for Ossetia yet, as I said up front. Collecting more information.

Nor have I made up my mind really on the whole Serbia and Kosovo issue.

Quote from: gleichman;233963Just going by the map dude, on it Ossetia is part of Georgia and Russian troops (the nuclear power) have crossed that boarder.

Russian troops have been in south Ossetia for many years, but only a small 'peacekeeping' force intended to deter Georgian attack.  The Georgians attacked south Ossetia as part of their Western-backed dictator's plan to reunite Georgia's several breakaway republics, which don't want to be part of Georgia.  Russia has counter-attacked.

I'm guessing this means that Russian intelligence is pretty confident that nobody is left to oppose their retaking of their old satellite states.

The United States is broke.  China is in the middle of the olympics and trying to win some public relations battles.  I'm not sure about Europe but I'm guessing that short of the re-invasion of East Germany or perhaps Poland it will take forever for them to agree to unite and take action.

This looks pretty bad.