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Author Topic: Wait.. did I win?  (Read 1704 times)

Ian Absentia

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Wait.. did I win?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2008, 11:21:09 am »
AM, I've likened your devotion to D&D as being akin to the devotion of the born-again.  And here you throw me a bone like this:
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
When people are actively insulting and degrading my hobby and culture, I want to do something about it. Now obviously we can't simply drive the merchants out of the temple...
Honestly, I'm not sure you can separate your desire to see "[your] hobby and culture" kept healthy and vibrant from your desire to see your chosen game declared supreme.  Your gloating has the sick odor of both born-again religion and the team sport fan.  And I don't think you see what you are doing to degrade your own hobby and culture.

!i!

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2008, 11:50:07 am »
Quote from: Ian Absentia
AM, I've likened your devotion to D&D as being akin to the devotion of the born-again.  And here you throw me a bone like this:Honestly, I'm not sure you can separate your desire to see "[your] hobby and culture" kept healthy and vibrant from your desire to see your chosen game declared supreme.  Your gloating has the sick odor of both born-again religion and the team sport fan.  And I don't think you see what you are doing to degrade your own hobby and culture.

!i!

Dude, my favorite game pretty much already reigns supreme, which is why I don't have to advocate anyone else jump on board, or complain why people aren't playing it or any of that stuff. Those aren't issues for me. I like what I like. I can accept that other people (in turn) like what they like, and I seriously, no-kidding, even though you might not think so... have no judgement of other people based on that. Believe it or not, I honestly have more dislike for Gurps and Shadowrun than I do for the forgie games. Personal preference being what it is, right? And yet, I still love Koltar. He's cool. He's a decent guy. And he's honest.

Have you ever seen me jump into a Gurps or a Shadowrun discussion?  Ever? Check me on this.

But the forgies themselves as people and as a "movement" are worth the venom. The games are blameless. Some of them are good, some of them are hilariously bad. Artists have the right to suck, and many of them enthusiastically use that right! There's no accounting for taste..ever. And thats fine.

But I see that particular cult of personality movement as being very damaging, very insulting, and I should point out that they only exist in our hobby because they parasitically exploit the vanity of gamers who are already well on their way out, who have ceased to be a part of it, who have lost the ability to enjoy it. In MMO parlance, they're griefers. They talk about it openly, practically brag about it. And until just a few years ago.. nobody knew any better. Pointing it out is easy.

Eventually I hope they all go on and become amateur improv performers or community theater guys, or they get involved in group therapy circles as psychodramatists or juicer-demonstrators on infomercials. I wish them success in that. But they really don't need roleplaying games for that, do they?
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Ian Absentia

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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2008, 12:03:43 pm »
I don't know, man, because you state this just up-thread:
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
But the wonderful irony is, every year, fad consumers have to wonder what the fuck they are doing stil hanging about in a hobby they no longer truly enjoy. This usually happens approximately 3-4 days after every convention. The pattern every year is 1) glowing convention report, 2)then... silence, 3) sudden despair, self-examination, and self-loathing.

It's been going on for a few years, and I always get a kick out of it!
That story's about you, too, right?  I can't find the exact thread where you related your story about your losing faith in AD&D and your eventual salvation in 3.x, but it was the same progression you describe in the quote.  And it's the same sad progression I see in so many of the born-again.  As you say, the games themselves are blameless, but I can't help but wonder if you despise these people so because you expect them to arrive at the same revelation you have.

You seem to have been insulting droog as a "fan"* gamer, but, honestly, you fit the same description yourself.  Taking joy in seeing other people go through your same troubles is just kind of sad.

!i!

[*Edit: Oops.  You were accusing him of being a "fad" gamer.  Aside from that mis-attribution, though, my statement stands.]

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2008, 12:31:05 pm »
Quote from: Ian Absentia
I don't know, man, because you state this just up-thread:That story's about you, too, right?  I can't find the exact thread where you related your story about your losing faith in AD&D and your eventual salvation in 3.x, but it was the same progression you describe in the quote.  And it's the same sad progression I see in so many of the born-again.  As you say, the games themselves are blameless, but I can't help but wonder if you despise these people so because you expect them to arrive at the same revelation you have.

You seem to have been insulting droog as a "fan" gamer, but, honestly, you fit the same description yourself.  Taking joy in seeing other people go through your same troubles is just kind of sad.

!i!

Oh I am a fan gamer too. Absolutely. I'm as gauche as they come. I said so.

And I did lose faith AD&D2, absolutely. And here's something really shameful; I was a real jerk about people who still played it. And I was one of those jerks at the Gaming Outpost who thought I was part of a revolution too. In 1997. I still don't think I would play AD&D2 unless it was as a goof.

But I don't think I will ever insult the fans just for being fans again. I believe I said it once: The main characteristic about RPG Online fandom is that anyone out of the mainstream resents the mainstream. Now I represent the mainstream, and yes, I remember what it is like to be on the outs. It's a unique perspective to have.

Here's what I realized pretty quickly: membership in the exclusive society that talks about gaming all the time but only plays at conventions just isn't that great compared to actually playing every week with great people that you like. And actually putting all that work into marketing hype to try and help sell stuff because it's your friend who wrote the thing? It's only worth it until you run across that same friend talking about how much he resents the "crap eating fan boys" who aren't buying his stuff. Especially when the crap-eating fan boys you find out are so resented? Are you and your friends.

And finally, well, this hobby isn't really just about buying and owning stuff, is it?  "Actual Play" is what most gamers do every week. You know what it means now? It's a cover term for stealth marketing to guys who can barely manage to game over skype and IRC, let alone around a table.

You know what kills me? When people actually take pictures of all their special membership games and post them as proof. Or when people write posts about what they wish they were playing so they can drop links all over the place.

Edit: just caught the fan/fad thing. I don't agree, really. I'm here because I game. I don't actually maintain all of my friendships through gaming or hang around and game only with people I know online. I'll game with anyone. And finally, some of these guys are just such pathetic mediocre schmucks that I can't believe we tolerate their smugness.
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David R

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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2008, 12:36:18 pm »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Reading things posted on the internet in public places is that disturbing to you? So who has the right to read what? and who dispenses that right? Are you creepy and pathetic and silly for responding to me? You seem to read everything I write.

I'm ok with that!


I'm not the one obsessed about by what an obscure group of posters are saying about the hobby. I never once questioned your right to obsess about them, just that, well it's creepy. It's creepy how you started a thread about your hate for a fellow gamer, just because of his gaming rethoric which if a little muddled is not really that offensive.

I'm responding to you here. For what you say here. The day I start making threads here about the things you say on other sites, I'll take my place beside you.

Regards,
David R

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2008, 12:47:10 pm »
Quote from: David R
I'm not the one obsessed about by what an obscure group of posters are saying about the hobby. I never once questioned your right to obsess about them, just that, well it's creepy. It's creepy how you started a thread about your hate for a fellow gamer, just because of his gaming rethoric which if a little muddled is not really that offensive.

I'm responding to you here. For what you say here. The day I start making threads here about the things you say on other sites, I'll take my place beside you.

Regards,
David R


Dave, I really mean no offense but you aren't my target audience, and the main reason I respond to you is because I don't think you actually kinda get what is going on. (And thats fine too).

Here it is: This has nothing to do with me, really. In years past, I left an argument unresolved. Now, completely independent of me, without any prodding or involvement from me whatsoever, I saw other people saying the same things I wanted to say. Some of those people are the exact same people I was arguiing with back then. But now they seem to be agreeing with me! My argument lives on! And I am not even involved.. which is kinda neat.  

I hope you can accept that. I have this feeling you think I'm going to battle ya, but I'm probably not.
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David R

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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2008, 12:55:40 pm »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Dave, I really mean no offense but you aren't my target audience, and the main reason I respond to you is because I don't think you actually kinda get what is going on. (And thats fine too).

Here it is: This has nothing to do with me, really. In years past, I left an argument unresolved. Now, completely independent of me, without any prodding or involvement from me whatsoever, I saw other people saying the same things I wanted to say. Some of those people are the exact same people I was arguiing with back then. But now they seem to be agreeing with me! My argument lives on! And I am not even involved.. which is kinda neat.  

I hope you can accept that. I have this feeling you think I'm going to battle ya, but I'm probably not.


No offense taken. However since I like you, I think you should know, you don't really have an audience. I'm glad you see some people saying the things you used to say. This must be a real confidence builder, I guess. I hope you win this imaginary war, because then you can get back to talking about games you like to play, not the games you hate that others enjoy.

Regards,
David R

Ian Absentia

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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2008, 01:26:44 pm »
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
This has nothing to do with me, really.
"Wait...did I win?"

This is totally about you.

!i!

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2008, 01:48:36 pm »
Quote from: Ian Absentia
"Wait...did I win?"

This is totally about you.

!i!


:D
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droog

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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2008, 05:13:44 pm »
Okay, so what AM wants to say is "You've never been more than a fad consumer." Alternatively, "You've never been anything but a fad consumer." Is this correct, Professor?
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Balbinus

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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2008, 12:34:57 pm »
AM, for those of us in the peanut gallery, could you possibly explain what the fuck you're talking about?

I get the impression there's an interesting topic here, but I'm fucked if I can understand what it is.

Koltar

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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2008, 12:37:02 pm »
DITTO
 (again/......)

Could someone link me to the reason Abyssal Maw started this thread in the first place.

 I am understandably curious.


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Settembrini

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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2008, 03:09:29 pm »
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=5729&page=1#Item_0

At least that´s what I´m talking about.

I blogged about it today, so no need to be coy.
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Balbinus

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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2008, 09:27:48 pm »
Self-flagellatory bollocks.

A couple of folk have burnt out, which is hardly surprising, it happens in all hobbies.

A bunch of folk have, as ever on Story-Games, the same understanding of trad rpgs as I have of mecha anime.  The difference being I don't pontificate on what mecha anime is or what it's fans understand and don't.

Some breast beating about clarity, when many of the games in my experience are perfectly clear.

And the usual thing they have there about the fact the place is utterly positive so there's no criticism.  That's the site, it's a positive site, either enjoy it for that or post somewhere else for fuck's sake.

Self-flagellatory bollocks, I draw no wider conclusions from it.

walkerp

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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2008, 04:25:51 pm »
AM, what I don't see is story-gamers not playing regularily.  My main contact with that world is through podcasts and those guys seem to be playing all the time and definitely not just at conventions.

When you look at the Story-games site, there does seem to be a wing of over-enthusiastic wannabe's who are caught up in the creative excitement and probably will burn out and fade away over time.  But I suspect they are a minority.
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