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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Abyssal Maw on February 21, 2008, 01:31:32 pm

Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 21, 2008, 01:31:32 pm
When a significant contingent of the people I hate the most are suddenly agreeing with me, and making my arguments better than I have ever done.. (and yeah, I know, hate is a strong word, but follow me on this).. have I successfully gotten my point across?

Let me be clear, I think I get bonus points, because they aren't making these points in response to or in the context of an argument with *me* at all. They are making these points to each other. Independently. And loudly, as if they had just discovered them.

It's so perplexing for me! I almost want to chime in like a chimey chimerson and be like "TOLD YA!" or do the /Nelson "ha-haa" or something. But I think I might just quietly observe.

Perhaps there's hope for some of these people after all...
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: James J Skach on February 21, 2008, 03:11:54 pm
Would you be at all open to pointing out exactly where this is taking place? I'm curious as to what you...won...
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 21, 2008, 03:15:12 pm
Quote from: James J Skach
Would you be at all open to pointing out exactly where this is taking place? I'm curious as to what you...won...


Dude, I can't because I'm afraid if they take notice of me gloating they'll stop, and I am ENJOYING THIS HUGELY.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Callous on February 21, 2008, 03:18:41 pm
I disagree with everything that you've ever said, Abyssal Maw.

Crisis averted!  :)

Seriously, enjoy your moment.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Ian Absentia on February 21, 2008, 03:35:21 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
When a significant contingent of the people I hate the most are suddenly agreeing with me, and making my arguments better than I have ever done.. (and yeah, I know, hate is a strong word, but follow me on this).. have I successfully gotten my point across?
I'm sorry, but in a situation like this, the best you can hope for is assured mutual destruction.

!i!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: droog on February 21, 2008, 03:44:29 pm
Maybe it's you that's altered. It looks like business as usual to me.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 21, 2008, 03:48:36 pm
Quote from: droog
Maybe it's you that's altered. It looks like business as usual to me.


I think Droog knows what I am gloating about!!!

:cheers:
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: droog on February 21, 2008, 03:50:14 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
I think Droog knows what I am gloating about!!!

:cheers:

Yes, but I don't see the gloat factor. That's why I say that maybe it's you.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 21, 2008, 04:05:05 pm
Quote from: droog
Yes, but I don't see the gloat factor. That's why I say that maybe it's you.


Perhaps you've misunderstood my true motives all along then!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: James J Skach on February 21, 2008, 04:38:34 pm
Don't gloat, AM - just bookmark.  History has a funny way...and having quick reference to how what you predicted last time came true is often handy...
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Settembrini on February 21, 2008, 04:48:52 pm
I have that thread SOOOO bookmarked.

It´s quite sad, though.
The pyramid crumbles, and the peons get rocks on their heads.
A bit ugly.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: jrients on February 21, 2008, 05:26:12 pm
I don't mind everyone being coy, but please at least PM me a link.

Throw me a bone, people!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Settembrini on February 21, 2008, 05:44:51 pm
PM sent. I *think* this is what AM is alluding to.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: David R on February 21, 2008, 07:06:03 pm
Could someone - AM - PM me the link.

Regards,
David R
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Ian Absentia on February 21, 2008, 07:22:37 pm
Or, you know, just come out with it already.

!i!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Blackleaf on February 21, 2008, 09:02:56 pm
Quote from: Settembrini
The pyramid crumbles


Heh. :)
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Thanatos02 on February 21, 2008, 10:40:17 pm
Quote from: James J Skach
I'm curious as to what you...won...

The internet, dude.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Koltar on February 21, 2008, 11:28:41 pm
Could someone PM me a link to what he's talking about ?

 The snowstorm here knocked out our cable for a bit - I could use a small does of entertainment.  (Tho, I did see the whammy moment at the end of "LOST" tonight)


- Ed C.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Thanatos02 on February 22, 2008, 02:31:35 am
Quote from: Koltar
Could someone PM me a link to what he's talking about ?

The Internet (http://www.google.com)
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: droog on February 22, 2008, 05:20:28 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Perhaps you've misunderstood my true motives all along then!

I don't think so, Professor. In any case, perhaps it's me who should be gloating. I see a wee bit of reinventing the wheel happening roundabout.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 07:46:37 am
Quote from: droog
I don't think so, Professor. In any case, perhaps it's me who should be gloating. I see a wee bit of reinventing the wheel happening roundabout.


You don't see it because you've never been more of a fad consumer. Which I'm sorry about that, but there it is.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: droog on February 22, 2008, 08:05:22 am
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
You don't see it because you've never been more of a fad consumer. Which I'm sorry about that, but there it is.

Your grammar confuses me. Are you insulting me?
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 08:33:46 am
Well, not a grievous insult.

Here's what I'm saying:

Being a fan of roleplaying games is one thing. Thats all of us. This type of person participates in roleplaying fandom (like these online hangouts) because he games. Thats a fan. Often this itself is derogatory. The crime of honestly liking something enough to follow the developments and enjoy it used to be the height of gauche behavior. FAAANBOYSSS!!!!!

Heh. I am pretty much one of those guys. I'm as gauche as they come.


Being involved only with of a certain specific kind of roleplaying games because buying in and pledging allegiance gives you a special sense of belonging to an exclusive "movement"  is like.. an entirely different thing. This person is involved in gaming as an excuse to be involved in the online communities. That's a fad consumer. Fad consumers always think they are cooler than fans (or "fanboys").

But the wonderful irony is, every year, fad consumers have to wonder what the fuck they are doing stil hanging about in a hobby they no longer truly enjoy. This usually happens approximately 3-4 days after every convention. The pattern every year is 1) glowing convention report, 2)then... silence, 3) sudden despair, self-examination,  and self-loathing.

It's been going on for a few years, and I always get a kick out of it!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: droog on February 22, 2008, 08:52:15 am
Well, I don't think I'm a fad consumer, but feel free. But the grammar still confuses me. Am I supposed never to have been a fad consumer, or to have been a fad consumer becoming ever more faddish?
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: David R on February 22, 2008, 09:03:19 am
Quote from: droog
But the grammar still confuses me......or to have been a fad consumer becoming ever more faddish?


Maybe it's like being gay but becoming more girlie....

Regards,
David R
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 09:59:59 am
It must be tough for you, David. To always wants to jump in and get all snarky and stuff, yet not actually be involved.

And your snarky skills are lacking...

Villiany is an art!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: David R on February 22, 2008, 10:06:28 am
Not tough at all AM. And what snark, it was an honest question.

Does being involved mean stalking sites and finding things to be insulted at ?

Regards,
David R
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 10:33:44 am
By 'stalking' do you mean "reading stuff posted publicly on the internet"? And by "insulted" do you mean "amused and pleased that these fucks are now saying the things to each other what I was saying 3 years ago"?

That was the hysterical accusation of last year. I got a kick out of that, especially because I knew some of these same guys were going way out of their way to follow everything I was saying.  The swarm defenders, after all, must know where to swarm. Anyhow, it's a weak defense. The insinuation of course is that there is something sinister or violent or threatening going on, but that's 1) obviously not the case, and 2) a desperation defense put forward by weaklings who simply don't feel like they should be accountable for things they say.

When people are actively insulting and degrading my hobby and culture, I want to do something about it. Now obviously we can't simply drive the merchants out of the temple. But anytime these guys self-assess and see how dishonest they are and wonder whether they should still be doing the fucked up and mediocre things they are doing? I take it as a positive sign. I rejoice.

Is that wrong?
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: David R on February 22, 2008, 10:41:06 am
Wrong ?

These people have no real influence on the hobby. Most gamers have never heard of them except when folks like you bring them up. Most of the stuff is online BS

So is it wrong.... it's probably kind of creepy. Kind of pathetic. Kind of silly.

Regards,
David R
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 11:15:48 am
Quote from: David R
Wrong ?

These people have no real influence on the hobby. Most gamers have never heard of them except when folks like you bring them up. Most of the stuff is online BS

So is it wrong.... it's probably kind of creepy. Kind of pathetic. Kind of silly.

Regards,
David R


Reading things posted on the internet in public places is that disturbing to you? So who has the right to read what? and who dispenses that right? Are you creepy and pathetic and silly for responding to me? You seem to read everything I write.

I'm ok with that!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Ian Absentia on February 22, 2008, 11:21:09 am
AM, I've likened your devotion to D&D as being akin to the devotion of the born-again.  And here you throw me a bone like this:
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
When people are actively insulting and degrading my hobby and culture, I want to do something about it. Now obviously we can't simply drive the merchants out of the temple...
Honestly, I'm not sure you can separate your desire to see "[your] hobby and culture" kept healthy and vibrant from your desire to see your chosen game declared supreme.  Your gloating has the sick odor of both born-again religion and the team sport fan.  And I don't think you see what you are doing to degrade your own hobby and culture.

!i!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 11:50:07 am
Quote from: Ian Absentia
AM, I've likened your devotion to D&D as being akin to the devotion of the born-again.  And here you throw me a bone like this:Honestly, I'm not sure you can separate your desire to see "[your] hobby and culture" kept healthy and vibrant from your desire to see your chosen game declared supreme.  Your gloating has the sick odor of both born-again religion and the team sport fan.  And I don't think you see what you are doing to degrade your own hobby and culture.

!i!

Dude, my favorite game pretty much already reigns supreme, which is why I don't have to advocate anyone else jump on board, or complain why people aren't playing it or any of that stuff. Those aren't issues for me. I like what I like. I can accept that other people (in turn) like what they like, and I seriously, no-kidding, even though you might not think so... have no judgement of other people based on that. Believe it or not, I honestly have more dislike for Gurps and Shadowrun than I do for the forgie games. Personal preference being what it is, right? And yet, I still love Koltar. He's cool. He's a decent guy. And he's honest.

Have you ever seen me jump into a Gurps or a Shadowrun discussion?  Ever? Check me on this.

But the forgies themselves as people and as a "movement" are worth the venom. The games are blameless. Some of them are good, some of them are hilariously bad. Artists have the right to suck, and many of them enthusiastically use that right! There's no accounting for taste..ever. And thats fine.

But I see that particular cult of personality movement as being very damaging, very insulting, and I should point out that they only exist in our hobby because they parasitically exploit the vanity of gamers who are already well on their way out, who have ceased to be a part of it, who have lost the ability to enjoy it. In MMO parlance, they're griefers. They talk about it openly, practically brag about it. And until just a few years ago.. nobody knew any better. Pointing it out is easy.

Eventually I hope they all go on and become amateur improv performers or community theater guys, or they get involved in group therapy circles as psychodramatists or juicer-demonstrators on infomercials. I wish them success in that. But they really don't need roleplaying games for that, do they?
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Ian Absentia on February 22, 2008, 12:03:43 pm
I don't know, man, because you state this just up-thread:
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
But the wonderful irony is, every year, fad consumers have to wonder what the fuck they are doing stil hanging about in a hobby they no longer truly enjoy. This usually happens approximately 3-4 days after every convention. The pattern every year is 1) glowing convention report, 2)then... silence, 3) sudden despair, self-examination, and self-loathing.

It's been going on for a few years, and I always get a kick out of it!
That story's about you, too, right?  I can't find the exact thread where you related your story about your losing faith in AD&D and your eventual salvation in 3.x, but it was the same progression you describe in the quote.  And it's the same sad progression I see in so many of the born-again.  As you say, the games themselves are blameless, but I can't help but wonder if you despise these people so because you expect them to arrive at the same revelation you have.

You seem to have been insulting droog as a "fan"* gamer, but, honestly, you fit the same description yourself.  Taking joy in seeing other people go through your same troubles is just kind of sad.

!i!

[*Edit: Oops.  You were accusing him of being a "fad" gamer.  Aside from that mis-attribution, though, my statement stands.]
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 12:31:05 pm
Quote from: Ian Absentia
I don't know, man, because you state this just up-thread:That story's about you, too, right?  I can't find the exact thread where you related your story about your losing faith in AD&D and your eventual salvation in 3.x, but it was the same progression you describe in the quote.  And it's the same sad progression I see in so many of the born-again.  As you say, the games themselves are blameless, but I can't help but wonder if you despise these people so because you expect them to arrive at the same revelation you have.

You seem to have been insulting droog as a "fan" gamer, but, honestly, you fit the same description yourself.  Taking joy in seeing other people go through your same troubles is just kind of sad.

!i!

Oh I am a fan gamer too. Absolutely. I'm as gauche as they come. I said so.

And I did lose faith AD&D2, absolutely. And here's something really shameful; I was a real jerk about people who still played it. And I was one of those jerks at the Gaming Outpost who thought I was part of a revolution too. In 1997. I still don't think I would play AD&D2 unless it was as a goof.

But I don't think I will ever insult the fans just for being fans again. I believe I said it once: The main characteristic about RPG Online fandom is that anyone out of the mainstream resents the mainstream. Now I represent the mainstream, and yes, I remember what it is like to be on the outs. It's a unique perspective to have.

Here's what I realized pretty quickly: membership in the exclusive society that talks about gaming all the time but only plays at conventions just isn't that great compared to actually playing every week with great people that you like. And actually putting all that work into marketing hype to try and help sell stuff because it's your friend who wrote the thing? It's only worth it until you run across that same friend talking about how much he resents the "crap eating fan boys" who aren't buying his stuff. Especially when the crap-eating fan boys you find out are so resented? Are you and your friends.

And finally, well, this hobby isn't really just about buying and owning stuff, is it?  "Actual Play" is what most gamers do every week. You know what it means now? It's a cover term for stealth marketing to guys who can barely manage to game over skype and IRC, let alone around a table.

You know what kills me? When people actually take pictures of all their special membership games and post them as proof. Or when people write posts about what they wish they were playing so they can drop links all over the place.

Edit: just caught the fan/fad thing. I don't agree, really. I'm here because I game. I don't actually maintain all of my friendships through gaming or hang around and game only with people I know online. I'll game with anyone. And finally, some of these guys are just such pathetic mediocre schmucks that I can't believe we tolerate their smugness.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: David R on February 22, 2008, 12:36:18 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Reading things posted on the internet in public places is that disturbing to you? So who has the right to read what? and who dispenses that right? Are you creepy and pathetic and silly for responding to me? You seem to read everything I write.

I'm ok with that!


I'm not the one obsessed about by what an obscure group of posters are saying about the hobby. I never once questioned your right to obsess about them, just that, well it's creepy. It's creepy how you started a thread about your hate for a fellow gamer, just because of his gaming rethoric which if a little muddled is not really that offensive.

I'm responding to you here. For what you say here. The day I start making threads here about the things you say on other sites, I'll take my place beside you.

Regards,
David R
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 12:47:10 pm
Quote from: David R
I'm not the one obsessed about by what an obscure group of posters are saying about the hobby. I never once questioned your right to obsess about them, just that, well it's creepy. It's creepy how you started a thread about your hate for a fellow gamer, just because of his gaming rethoric which if a little muddled is not really that offensive.

I'm responding to you here. For what you say here. The day I start making threads here about the things you say on other sites, I'll take my place beside you.

Regards,
David R


Dave, I really mean no offense but you aren't my target audience, and the main reason I respond to you is because I don't think you actually kinda get what is going on. (And thats fine too).

Here it is: This has nothing to do with me, really. In years past, I left an argument unresolved. Now, completely independent of me, without any prodding or involvement from me whatsoever, I saw other people saying the same things I wanted to say. Some of those people are the exact same people I was arguiing with back then. But now they seem to be agreeing with me! My argument lives on! And I am not even involved.. which is kinda neat.  

I hope you can accept that. I have this feeling you think I'm going to battle ya, but I'm probably not.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: David R on February 22, 2008, 12:55:40 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
Dave, I really mean no offense but you aren't my target audience, and the main reason I respond to you is because I don't think you actually kinda get what is going on. (And thats fine too).

Here it is: This has nothing to do with me, really. In years past, I left an argument unresolved. Now, completely independent of me, without any prodding or involvement from me whatsoever, I saw other people saying the same things I wanted to say. Some of those people are the exact same people I was arguiing with back then. But now they seem to be agreeing with me! My argument lives on! And I am not even involved.. which is kinda neat.  

I hope you can accept that. I have this feeling you think I'm going to battle ya, but I'm probably not.


No offense taken. However since I like you, I think you should know, you don't really have an audience. I'm glad you see some people saying the things you used to say. This must be a real confidence builder, I guess. I hope you win this imaginary war, because then you can get back to talking about games you like to play, not the games you hate that others enjoy.

Regards,
David R
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Ian Absentia on February 22, 2008, 01:26:44 pm
Quote from: Abyssal Maw
This has nothing to do with me, really.
"Wait...did I win?"

This is totally about you.

!i!
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on February 22, 2008, 01:48:36 pm
Quote from: Ian Absentia
"Wait...did I win?"

This is totally about you.

!i!


:D
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: droog on February 22, 2008, 05:13:44 pm
Okay, so what AM wants to say is "You've never been more than a fad consumer." Alternatively, "You've never been anything but a fad consumer." Is this correct, Professor?
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Balbinus on February 23, 2008, 12:34:57 pm
AM, for those of us in the peanut gallery, could you possibly explain what the fuck you're talking about?

I get the impression there's an interesting topic here, but I'm fucked if I can understand what it is.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Koltar on February 23, 2008, 12:37:02 pm
DITTO
 (again/......)

Could someone link me to the reason Abyssal Maw started this thread in the first place.

 I am understandably curious.


- Ed C.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Settembrini on February 23, 2008, 03:09:29 pm
http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=5729&page=1#Item_0

At least that´s what I´m talking about.

I blogged about it today, so no need to be coy.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: Balbinus on February 23, 2008, 09:27:48 pm
Self-flagellatory bollocks.

A couple of folk have burnt out, which is hardly surprising, it happens in all hobbies.

A bunch of folk have, as ever on Story-Games, the same understanding of trad rpgs as I have of mecha anime.  The difference being I don't pontificate on what mecha anime is or what it's fans understand and don't.

Some breast beating about clarity, when many of the games in my experience are perfectly clear.

And the usual thing they have there about the fact the place is utterly positive so there's no criticism.  That's the site, it's a positive site, either enjoy it for that or post somewhere else for fuck's sake.

Self-flagellatory bollocks, I draw no wider conclusions from it.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: walkerp on February 25, 2008, 04:25:51 pm
AM, what I don't see is story-gamers not playing regularily.  My main contact with that world is through podcasts and those guys seem to be playing all the time and definitely not just at conventions.

When you look at the Story-games site, there does seem to be a wing of over-enthusiastic wannabe's who are caught up in the creative excitement and probably will burn out and fade away over time.  But I suspect they are a minority.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: walkerp on February 25, 2008, 04:27:33 pm
Quote from: Balbinus
A bunch of folk have, as ever on Story-Games, the same understanding of trad rpgs as I have of mecha anime.  The difference being I don't pontificate on what mecha anime is or what it's fans understand and don't.


Well put.  With this understanding, I can now peruse Story-Games from time to time without flying off the handle and wanting to sign up to counter every 5th post (fortunately, the layout is so unreadable there, I always lose the urge).
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: RChandler on February 25, 2008, 07:07:40 pm
"Did I win?"

No. Since you completely ignored my incredible Johnny Cash song, you lose.

All of you lose.

Settembrini! Thanks for the blog post! I'm glad to know that "any longer completely down would stand the birds to play for few the plays are one of the gurus are incomplete a inkonsequenter geschaeftemacher".

*ducks*
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: J Arcane on February 25, 2008, 10:00:28 pm
Quote
Settembrini! Thanks for the blog post! I'm glad to know that "any longer completely down would stand the birds to play for few the plays are one of the gurus are incomplete a inkonsequenter geschaeftemacher".

I think I understand the German section of that sentence better than the rest of it.  And I don't speak a word of German.
Title: Wait.. did I win?
Post by: RChandler on February 26, 2008, 12:16:59 am
Quote from: J Arcane
I think I understand the German section of that sentence better than the rest of it.  And I don't speak a word of German.


I'm just pulling his leg. I babelfished it, and (of course), it didn't work very well.