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Update: Insanity defense possibility for Church shooter

Started by Koltar, August 20, 2008, 07:04:23 PM

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jswa

#15
August 20, 2008, 11:02:24 PM
Quote from: Koltar;237733The title of this thread was referring to the possible defense strategy - not whether the OP agrees with it or not.

Zheesh!


- Ed C.

Sure. But folk got words where folk got words. And folk got words about this, so they're gunna weigh in with their opinions on the issue.

gleichman

#16
August 20, 2008, 11:15:53 PM
Quote from: jswa;237728Unitarians don't look at me funny when I say things like, "I'm a secular humanist," so they get points in my book.

Unitarians are that far from being secular humanists. I think the only reason they have a church at all is for the get togethers...

I overstate of course. A little.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

gleichman

#17
August 20, 2008, 11:16:52 PM
Quote from: CavScout;237717Of course the guy was insane. It's generally the insane that butcher people. What I'll never get is why that is a valid defense.

It's a very difficult defense to pull off succesfully. Odds are he'll crash and burn using it.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Koltar

#18
August 20, 2008, 11:25:00 PM
Quote from: gleichman;237740Unitarians are that far from being secular humanists. I think the only reason they have a church at all is for the get togethers...

I overstate of course. A little.


Maybe, maybe not.

 One of the UU Churches that I went to, I discovered that many of them were 'spiritual' or philosophical refigees from more mainstream churches. They could no longer go to those churches - but they wanted the social function of going to something on Sundays and being part of a group.

The need to belong to a group and believe in something can be a pretty strong motivator and desire in people. Also noticed they were pretty intelligent and witty folks for the most part.


- Ed C.
The return of \'You can\'t take the Sky From me!\'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

jswa

#19
August 20, 2008, 11:48:45 PM
Quote from: Koltar;237744Maybe, maybe not.

One of the UU Churches that I went to, I discovered that many of them were 'spiritual' or philosophical refigees from more mainstream churches. They could no longer go to those churches - but they wanted the social function of going to something on Sundays and being part of a group.

The need to belong to a group and believe in something can be a pretty strong motivator and desire in people. Also noticed they were pretty intelligent and witty folks for the most part.

Yeah, I actually think you're right, gleichman (I'm not sure I ever expected to type that - granted, I've only really been active starting a few days ago), and Koltar sums it up nicely.

jeff37923

#20
August 21, 2008, 12:12:00 AM
The insanity defense is going to be extraordinarily difficult to maintain in this case. Even with all the fuckwit rhetoric about the influence of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy on the shooter, he has not made any claim that an outside influence caused him to pull the trigger.

The feeling around here is that people want this man made an example of. I'd bet that it will happen that way.
"Meh."

NotYourMonkey

#21
August 21, 2008, 12:12:34 AM
Quote from: CavScout;237723Not necessarily. If you are found "not guilty by reason of insanity" you can be released when your are "cured". AFAIK, there is no minimum term of confinement if found "not guilty by reason of insanity", it's basically an acquittal once you are found to be sane again.

That being said, places that house the criminally insane tend to be reeeeeeaaaaaal careful about deciding it is OK to let them out again, if nothing else, no institution wants to be the institution that lets out the guy who thinks the TV and his Guinea Pig will kill him unless he feeds hearts to the dumpster down the street.  

Also, that defense almost never works.
AKA Anubis-scales.

Koltar

#22
August 21, 2008, 12:17:15 AM
Well here's hoping that both sides of the case of fair and honest lawyers, then things might work out for the best jusatice-wise.

That might be a pipe-dream, but hey - this place is supposed to be friendly to things related to pipes.


- Ed C.
The return of \'You can\'t take the Sky From me!\'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUn-eN8mkDw&feature=rec-fresh+div

This is what a really cool FANTASY RPG should be like :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-WnjVUBDbs

Still here, still alive, at least Seven years now...

jeff37923

#23
August 21, 2008, 12:17:58 AM
Quote from: Jackalope;237662Hey, I have an idea:  If you don't want to hear about it, stop posting about it!

I know you want to delude yourself into believing that this act somehow had nothing to do with politics, but -- and listen carefully, dickcheese -- I DON'T CARE TO SUPPORT YOUR DELUSIONS AND I WILL NOT BE PARTY TO PERPETUATING THEM.  I am not going to pretend politics had nothing to do with this, because politics have everything to do with it, and ignoring that element ONLY SERVES TO ENSURE THAT IT HAPPENS AGAIN.

You can call it derailing the thread, or ruining it, but you're a fatheaded idiot, and I won't limit my analysis to only that which your feeble pinhead can accept.

I mean what the fuck do you want Ed?  A big pathetic public pity party, where we all Boo Hoo Hoo in public, rend our garments, rub ashes on our face, and beg Mighty Cheesus to explain why bad things happen to good people?  

OH WHY LORD WHY DO MENTALLY DISTURBED WHITE MEN KEEP TARGETING LIBERALS AND GAYS FOR VIOLENCE?  YOUR SERVANT ED HAS EXPLAINED THAT THE HATE LITERATURE FOUND IN HIS CAR AND THE LONG RANTING NOTE THAT MIRRORED THE HATRED IN THOSE BOOKS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TRAGIC EVENT OR HIS SELECTION OF TARGETS, AND SO LORD SINCE WE HAVE BLINDED OURSELVES TO THE FUCKING OBVIOUS EXPLANATION WE ARE AT A LOSS TO EXPLAIN THIS TRAGEDY!!!  BUT WE FEEL BAD, SO VERY BAD, LOOK AT US IN OUR PUBLIC SYMPATHY AND PITY, ARE WE NOT GOOD PEOPLE?  ARE WE NOT PROPERLY SADDENED WHEN STRANGERS DIE?

Dude, Here's something that will rock your world:  I don't give a fuck about those two people who died, or the six who were wounded.  their lives are meaningless, and certainly of no greater consequences than the lives of all the other people who died that day (the ones we aren't crying over in public).

Ah fuck it.  You're a sick, pathetic piece of shit who is too stupiud to ever understand fucking ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING.  I hope you die of a heart attack Ed, you DISGUST me, you miserable sack of shit.

What a waste of human life you are.

PS: And stop using your icon to remind us that you perv on girls way to young for you.

Be careful, Ed.

Jackalope is obviously one step away from tracking you down and throwing shit at you.

Unfortunately for the fuckwit, he won't be able to use the Insanity Defense either afterwards.
"Meh."

StormBringer

#24
August 21, 2008, 12:18:59 AM
Quote from: NotYourMonkey;237779That being said, places that house the criminally insane tend to be reeeeeeaaaaaal careful about deciding it is OK to let them out again, if nothing else, no institution wants to be the institution that lets out the guy who thinks the TV and his Guinea Pig will kill him unless he feeds hearts to the dumpster down the street.  

Also, that defense almost never works.
It is floated to a jury something like 5% of the time, and it works about 5% of the time it is tried, or something like that.

John Hinkley Jr, for example, will probably never get out of the institution.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

NotYourMonkey

#25
August 21, 2008, 12:20:42 AM
Quote from: StormBringer;237788It is floated to a jury something like 5% of the time, and it works about 5% of the time it is tried, or something like that.

That is about the same figure I've heard.
AKA Anubis-scales.

jswa

#26
August 21, 2008, 12:42:42 AM
Quote from: NotYourMonkey;237779if nothing else, no institution wants to be the institution that lets out the guy who thinks the TV and his Guinea Pig will kill him unless he feeds hearts to the dumpster down the street.

I just have to say: :rotfl:

CavScout

#27
August 21, 2008, 09:13:15 AM Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 09:25:31 AM by CavScout
Quote from: StormBringer;237788It is floated to a jury something like 5% of the time, and it works about 5% of the time it is tried, or something like that.

John Hinkley Jr, for example, will probably never get out of the institution.

No, he just gets unsupervised visits where he can leave the facility with no supervision. So he can hang with mom and dad amongst the rest of us. Not exactly prision.

Lorena Bobbitt was found "not guilty by reasons of insanity" and spent a whole three months in a facility before being released.
"Who\'s the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -Obi-Wan

Playing: Heavy Gear TRPG, COD: World at War PC, Left4Dead PC, Fable 2 X360

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CavScout

#28
August 21, 2008, 09:22:38 AM
Quote from: StormBringer;237788It is floated to a jury something like 5% of the time, and it works about 5% of the time it is tried, or something like that.

It actually is successful about 25% of the time that it is used.
"Who\'s the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him?" -Obi-Wan

Playing: Heavy Gear TRPG, COD: World at War PC, Left4Dead PC, Fable 2 X360

Reading: Fighter Wing Just Read: The Orc King: Transitions, Book I Read Recently: An Army at Dawn

Pseudoephedrine

#29
August 21, 2008, 12:48:38 PM
Americans have different and weird standards for the insanity defense. Up here in Canada for the insanity defense to work you have to be so crazy that you can no longer recognise the action was wrong, or be unable to appreciate the "quality and nature of the act". There's no such thing as "temporary insanity" - anyone who uses the defense of insanity successfully used to be indefinitely confined to the Penetanguishene institute for the criminally insane, and now is normally committed to Penetang for the length of their sentence had they been found guilty (at least), and then released with monitoring comparable to parole or probation.

This makes people much less likely to claim the defense frivolously.
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