I guess nobody wants to look at the misogyny and contempt for children underlying many cultures in the world. It's easier just to bitch about cultural relativism or everyone hating America or whatever the fuck Morrow is on about.

Japan's not unique. Again I point to Western porn.  Porn is just another expression of a culture. The West has relatively liberated women, and so we get porn where women are abused and degraded; Japan has men who are more like boys and who spend so much time at work they can't develop relationships with adults, and so we get porn with infantilised women, or sexualised children.

What we're talking about is men who are unable to deal with women as equals, men who are socially inadequate. But I guess that's going someplace nobody wants to look at. Much easier to change the topic to irrelevant shit.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI think you're seeing what you want to see, John.  Poking the eye of hypocrisy isn't "squeamishness" about criticising another culture, it's spreading the love around.

:rolleyes:

What hypocrisy?  And what does it mean to "spread the love around"?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAs David pointed out quite clearly, no one was defending the more egregious social issues in Japan; instead, the discussion rapidly shifted from an accusation against the Japanese to consideration of the root problem, regardless of cultures or borders.

And what is this root problem that's being discussed, and for what problem?  And why do we need to discuss root problems "regardless of cultures or borders" or do you think that culture has no impact on things like child pornography, pedophilia, misogyny, etc.?

Quote from: John MorrowWhich brings us back, yet again, to what I said: "typical squeamishness about criticizing another culture no matter what it is".  I said it was either that or making excuses for Japan.  People keep saying that's not it and then wind up saying, yeah, that is it.  Why not just say that you don't think it's appropriate to comment negatively on someone else's culture?

I find it amusing that you, who can't help but to go on about the hypocrisy of the left, media, Democrats etc in about every political/social discussion (always straying away from the original topic, never condemning outright) on this site finds it difficult to understand where I'm coming from. I'll make it easy for you. Criticize another culture all you want, but acknowledge that your own may suffer from the same faillings.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Kyle AaronNot many alcoholics in Saudi Arabia

You might be surprised.  Most of the people I met were heavy drinkers.

There just happens to be a very vibrant black market.

There's also a huge difference between "one person avoiding" something and "goverment restriction to everyone".

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhat we're talking about is men who are unable to deal with women as equals, men who are socially inadequate. But I guess that's going someplace nobody wants to look at. Much easier to change the topic to irrelevant shit.

I think that your observations in this thread have been either spot on or pretty near the mark, by the way.  But part of my point is that we can't talk about pornography as a reflection of culture if are forced to talk about problems without regard for cultures or borders.  And I think it's not only about men who have issues but what their respective cultures allow them to get away with both in and out of the shadows.  Before international pressure all but forced Japan to ban the production of child pornography in 1999 (9 years ago), Interpol estimated that 80% of the child pornography sites on the Internet originated in Japan.  It wasn't internal Japanese cultural pressure that stopped that.

Quote from: John MorrowYet, somehow, the Chinese manage to censor it.  That's not what I'm advocating, however, since there are other ways to deal with it.

Such as?

RPGPundit

Quote from: droogMeanwhile, in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave:

Touche.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle AaronSo simple possession of photographs of actual child abuse shouldn't be a crime?

For the possessor of the photographs, it's just a fantasy, after all.

I mean, try doing an anime giving a friendly look at Arab suicide bombers, see what happens.

As I see it, there is some shit we just shouldn't tolerate, and the law's good for that. That includes "just fantasy", when it's in a certain form, explicit and published like that.

I think there's two issues here that need to be addressed:

1. The implication that anime is somehow all about perverse sexuality, or that Japanese society itself is somehow fucked up beyond belief on this matter; this is a pretty ignorant point of view, and I'd hope everyone here could agree with that.

2. That there has to be a difference between condemning Japan for permitting actual child pornography, which is one thing; as opposed to the creation of drawings or stories with no actual children involved, which is another.  The UNICEF business seems unwilling to make that distinction.

Now, I'm no fan of either perverts or anime for that matter, I'm certainly not an "otaku", and the one and only anime I was ever a dedicated fan of was Robotech (which as I understand, hardcore anime fans don't even consider a genuine article or something).  But that said, to me the idea that artwork (using the term "art" loosely) must be censored or illegalized because it will somehow encourage someone (who WOULDN'T have otherwise done so) to commit child abuse seems as utterly moronic as the idea that "violent" video games must be censored or illegalized because they will somehow encourage someone (who wouldn't have otherwise done so) to go kill people.

Come to think of it, I'm no fan of video games either.
But this is very much a case of me not caring for or at all approving of the individuals in question who partake of this stuff, while defending their right to do so, their right to think or express what they want to so long as it doesn't result in the actual harm of a real living human being.
The idea of criminalizing expression based on the notion that it could somehow trend to have harmful effects or could somehow "lead" to crime, rather than leaving it at actually punishing the crime itself, is to me a very dangerous idea that can lead to all kinds of abuse and social repression.

Again, if you don't think that video games should be criminalized for "encouraging" violence, how can you be of the opinion that art or writing could be criminalized for "encouraging" something either (barring, perhaps, actual direct incitements to criminal activity)?

RPGPundit

Quote from: John MorrowI think that your observations in this thread have been either spot on or pretty near the mark, by the way.  But part of my point is that we can't talk about pornography as a reflection of culture if are forced to talk about problems without regard for cultures or borders.

The particular style of it is a reflection of the culture; the nasty heart of it is universal. In West Africa they prefer genital mutilation of their women, in Pakistan throwing acid in their face. The source of each is misogyny and a social imbalance of power, joined in reasonably enthusiastically by the women, too.

I think we have to look at the source of things, rather than fussing about the particular way they happen to come out. When one man's alcoholism loses him his job and another's loses him his wife matters a lot to each man, but the source of each man's problems is his drinking. While dealing with their rejection by woman or employer is important, more important is dealing with their drinking.

Quote from: John MorrowAnd I think it's not only about men who have issues but what their respective cultures allow them to get away with both in and out of the shadows.

Certainly. Just as the particular expression of misogyny will be unique to the culture, so will be the steps you have to take to fix things up. However, we should not mistake symptom for cause; when a doctor deals with an illness, they certainly give medicine to alleviate the symptoms, but they also look at the underlying causes of the illness. That's why just banning vile porn isn't enough. We have to look at the kinds of societies we have.

This does not mean that all societies are equal in their vileness. Plainly it is better to be a child in the United States than in the Congo with a civil war going on, and better to be a woman in rural China than rural Pakistan, and so on. Nonetheless oppression of women and children and the poor is pretty much universal, and there are common causes to these and other problems.

Quote from: David RThe sexualization of children takes many forms. droog's picture is one side. In my country amongst the Muslims it's covering the child up in the hijab (tudung). Non-Muslims have always found this a bit strange. The hijab is supposedly for covering up the so-called "enticing" sexuality of a woman.  So why are little girls encouraged to wear it. See where I'm going with this?

Regards,
David R

That's also contrary to Islamic tradition: The Hijab is supposed to be worn by women, which according to Islamic tradition is when a girl begins to menstruate, and not before.

But its obviously a case of your society becoming increasingly extremist in its overreaction and fervour toward puritanism; not unlike similar things going on in western society.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhen people start jerkin' off to 24, Rambo, or Lord of the Rings, let us know.

The claim of certain puritans in the United States (and elsewhere in the west) is that violent movies or video games "caused" school shootings and the like, or Ozzy Osbourne and D&D "caused" suicides. How is this any difference?

Lets face it, if some stupid fucker is planning to go apeshit in his high school because he feels picked on or isn't getting any handjobs from the cheerleader he likes, he's going to have done it whether or not he played Diablo II or listened to Marilyn Manson. People predisposed to violence are going to be violent, and will likely be drawn to "violent" media-fantasy because of their predisposition, not become violent because of the media they choose to view.

Likewise, if some stupid fucker goes off and rapes a schoolgirl, he's going to have done it whether or not he saw a bunch of little coloured squiggles depicting japanese schoolgirls in perverted situations. And again, he was drawn to the latter because of his nature, the nature was not created by the drawings he saw.

The idea that erotic literature or drawings (deviant in their sexuality or not) will "lead to" sexual criminality is as stupid as the idea some protestant sects have that dancing will "lead to" sex.

Let me put it another way: I'm quite certain that I could look at a metric fuckload of gay porn, and still wouldn't go out and have gay sex, or even become attracted to men.
Much less if they were a bunch of drawings.
Do you really think that if you looked at a bunch of drawings of japanese anime schoolgirls being raped, you'd end up going off and raping a schoolgirl?

Of course, some guys who are already planning to go off and abuse children might look at drawings or read stories to get off on it; and then go ahead and do it anyways, but it doesn't follow that they'll not have done it if only those things hadn't existed.  And personally, I'm of the conviction that if some guy wants to draw pictures or write stories about illegal acts of any kind, but doesn't ever actually go off and commit any of those acts, then its none of my fucking business.

Shit, imagine if the government got to charge with treason anyone who ever wrote revenge porn on the internet about a revolution against the current government or head of state?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle AaronI guess nobody wants to look at the misogyny and contempt for children underlying many cultures in the world. It's easier just to bitch about cultural relativism or everyone hating America or whatever the fuck Morrow is on about.

Japan's not unique. Again I point to Western porn.  Porn is just another expression of a culture. The West has relatively liberated women, and so we get porn where women are abused and degraded; Japan has men who are more like boys and who spend so much time at work they can't develop relationships with adults, and so we get porn with infantilised women, or sexualised children.

What we're talking about is men who are unable to deal with women as equals, men who are socially inadequate. But I guess that's going someplace nobody wants to look at. Much easier to change the topic to irrelevant shit.

I can't help but ask where Anglo-German fascination with whip-wielding leather mistresses or dominant schoolmatrons fits into your little international psychoanalysis?

While we're at it, what about the infamous Jewish oedipal complex?

And who the fuck even knows what Australians get off on?!  I'm pretty sure I don't want to know...

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RI find it amusing that you, who can't help but to go on about the hypocrisy of the left, media, Democrats etc in about every political/social discussion (always straying away from the original topic, never condemning outright) on this site finds it difficult to understand where I'm coming from. I'll make it easy for you. Criticize another culture all you want, but acknowledge that your own may suffer from the same faillings.

My own culture certainly suffers from failings when it comes to the sexualization of children but being reluctant to ban child pornography is not among those failings, which is why UNICEF is singling Japan out and not the United States.  

Japan did not ban the production and sale of child pornography in 1999 because of internal pressure to do so.  They banned it because of international pressure from Interpol and others to do so because they were one of the chief sources of child pornography on the Internet.  And they are showing a similar reluctance to ban the possession of child pornography, again doing so only in the face of international pressure.  Again, not a problem the United States has.  Nor any other Western nation, to my knowledge.  Which is, again, why UNICEF is singling Japan out.

Now you could certainly argue that things as bad, if not worse, happen to women and children in the United States, but do you have anything in particular in mind that's relevant?  My complaint here is not a reluctance to acknowledge that the United States has its own problems with the sexualization of children (it does, and I'd be happy to discuss them if you want to get specific) but this idea that that one must acknowledge that their own side may suffer from the same vaguely defined failings even though nobody can think of one that's comparable is a bit odd.  

Yeah, little girl "beauty pageants" are creepy and probably should be illegal (for reasons that extend beyond the sexualization of children) but I get the feeling that pedophilia isn't the goal there.  If it was, why would they dress the little girls to look like adults?  If someone is attracted to little girls, wouldn't they want them looking like a little girl, which is exactly what you'll see in the Japanese material?

Quote from: RPGPunditSuch as?

Simply making it illegal and enforce it.  International pressure got Japan to make the manufacture and sales of child pornography illegal in 1999 and they went from being the source of about 80% of the child pornography available on the Internet down to about 2%, according to one source that I looked at.  I suspect that the reason why UNICEF is after them is that because it's still legal to possess that a lot of it still gets traded in to and out of Japan.

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, if you don't think that video games should be criminalized for "encouraging" violence, how can you be of the opinion that art or writing could be criminalized for "encouraging" something either (barring, perhaps, actual direct incitements to criminal activity)?

The difference is the dick in hand.

A penis in hand is more tangible and closer to the real experience of sex than a mouse click (or dice roll, for that matter) is to the real experience of violence. Masturbation is, by virtue of giving you an orgasm, a more intense experience than any computer game. Having one intense experience builds the appetite more intense experiences.

You can also consider it empirically: of all the people who own violent videogames and movies, very few actually commit acts of violence; but of all the people who own child pornography, a much larger proportion commit acts of child abuse.

Turning from the empirical to the personal, if I go to someone's house and he's watching Rambo, I don't back out of the house nervously expecting that he might do me physical harm. Is my lack of fear rational? If I go to someone's house and he's watching child pornography, I'm not likely to ask him to babysit my kid. Is that fear rational?

I don't think we're talking about prudishness or fucked-up values where violence is okay but sex is wrong; I think we're talking pretty rationally. People with violent games and movies are rarely violent; people with child pornography are much more commonly abusers.