Hey, I typed it with a straight face. That's almost like being serious.

But, hey. I was all meaningfully contributing until the 'let's blame the liberals' call. And, actually, we could work a discussion of post-modernism in here if we wanted to, but it'd be a mistake.

Quote from: Thanatos02But, hey. I was all meaningfully contributing until the 'let's blame the liberals' call. And, actually, we could work a discussion of post-modernism in here if we wanted to, but it'd be a mistake.

I'm sure I'll be seeing your straight-faced contribution to the "let's blame the conservatives" treads, since you obviously aren't making a partisan political point yourself, right?

At the end of the day, folks, there are lots of nasty things that the right thingking among us would like to see go away, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Live-action child porn?  Something aweful clearly happened to some actual kids.  This needs to be banned.  Twice.  In the ear.  With Fire.

Lolli or what have you is fucking creepy.  Ditto "beauty pageants" for little girls.  Ditto again, with context, little girls wearing a hijab.  There are maybe all sorts of bad things that come crawling in from arround the edges because of these things.  Now what can we do about it?  What are the unintended consequences of whatever we do about it?  Are the unintended consequences worth whatever the benefit is?  Whatever means we use to stop this horrid crap, can they be subverted to bad ends?  Is that a risk worth taking?  

And as for Planned Parenthood Sting opperations, what kind of fucked up bullshit is that?  Clearly sometimes someone is going to make the in the field decission that it is better that the scarred 15 year old get an abortion/information/whatever than some 22 year old go to jail.

Which is another tough question.  We don't generally want 22 year olds having sex with 14 year olds, but is it more important to catch that fucker right this second than it is to get a scarred kid something they maybe need.

Lots of context there to sort through.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyAnd as for Planned Parenthood Sting opperations, what kind of fucked up bullshit is that?  Clearly sometimes someone is going to make the in the field decission that it is better that the scarred 15 year old get an abortion/information/whatever than some 22 year old go to jail.

The sting in question claimed that the girl was 13, not 15.  Yes, someone has to make that decision but the law for the places in question requires Planned Parenthood to report it, which is why they were telling the girl on the call how to help them evade the law.  Should Planned Parenthood be given a pass on obeying the law?

What about the woman suing Planned Parenthood in Ohio because they returned her to the father who was molesting her with reporting it, even after she told them her father was molesting her?  How about the 14 year-old girl who was sexually assaulted by her 21 year-old soccer coach who paid for her abortion and they didn't report it?  Or what about the 11 year-olds apparently given abortions in Michigan without any report being filed as required by law?  Should they still have had discretion to break the law in all of those cases and not report what was going on?

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyWhich is another tough question.  We don't generally want 22 year olds having sex with 14 year olds, but is it more important to catch that fucker right this second than it is to get a scarred kid something they maybe need.

So when exactly are they going to catch him?  When he finally brings a pair of 11 year-old in for an abortion a year later and the decide that crosses the line?  Do you think he's automatically going to stop molesting underage girls after his current girlfriend has an abortion?  And what if he's not a girlfriend but just an older guy molesting her and trying to cover it up?  Maybe part of the reason why she's scared is some guy nearly twice her age is pushing her to have an abortion to cover up a sexual encounter the girl didn't agree to?  How is Planned Parenthood supposed to tell the difference?

Quote from: John MorrowI'm sure I'll be seeing your straight-faced contribution to the "let's blame the conservatives" treads, since you obviously aren't making a partisan political point yourself, right?

What, seriously?

Quote from: John MorrowSnip

So, did they have an honest-to-Jesus pregnant 13 year old and get her an abortion to catch planned parenthood out?  Because that is pretty sick in and of itself.

Is this Planned Parenthood policy?  Did someone act on there own?  What are all the facts?

To me it sort of looks like someone was trying to solve an immediate problem in whatever way they could and hoping the big one in the background would solve itself, or be solved when it can.

Putting out the house fire rather than looking for termites and such.

Could have been the wrong decision.  Neither you nor I no all the facts on the matter.

And, once again.  Bad things happen.  What is the cure?  Charge the individuals responsible with a crime?  Sure, if you can find evidence they committed one.

Ban abortion?  We've been down that road.  The result is worse than the disease. Let some states ban it?  OK, so then some states get a worse problem than they had.  Put in extra little legal stops?  Same issue.  If you are talking about abortion, you are talking about a limited time window, and courts take a long time to go about there business.  The longer you make people wait, the less likely they are to be able to get an abortion, particularly since late term abortions are more or less illegal, and we probably don't want folks having those as a matter of course anyway.

To be clear, the worse situation we are discussing, is that limiting abortion by law doesn't do a whole lot to prevent abortions.  Wealthy women bribe a medical professional, less well off women stick coathangers up themselves.

You don't actually do a lot to stop abortions, or prevent crime, or whatever.  You end up with desperate young women dieing ugly, painful deaths.  Full stop.  It even happens today in states where girls can't get an abortion without parental permission.  Pregnant 15 year olds are afraid to tell their parents and either give birth in a bathroom stall (often killing the infant due to lack of medical care or out of fear) or go the back ally abortion rout and end up dead.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeySo, did they have an honest-to-Jesus pregnant 13 year old and get her an abortion to catch planned parenthood out?  Because that is pretty sick in and of itself.

They had an person pose as a 13 year-old and call Planned Parenthood.  They had her clearly explain that she was pregnant by her 22 year-old boyfriend.  At that point, over 90% of the Planned Parenthood locations called (over 900) advised the caller to hide the age of her boyfriend or otherwise help them avoid the legal requirement that they report a relationship like that.

Of course there were real girls who went to Planned Parenthood actually looking for help, like the Ohio girl being molested by her father and the 14 year-old molested by her soccer coach that wasn't reported but those weren't stings.  The claims there are that it really happened.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyIs this Planned Parenthood policy?  Did someone act on there own?  What are all the facts?

Planned Parenthood claims that it's not their policy and I'm willing to believe that.  However, something is seriously wrong with their organizatoin when over 90% of them, when called, seek to evade reporting laws, including explaining to the caller why she shouldn't mention her boyfriend's age when she comes in.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyTo me it sort of looks like someone was trying to solve an immediate problem in whatever way they could and hoping the big one in the background would solve itself, or be solved when it can.

And it's not their place to decide that.  And what if it doesn't work itself out?  What if she's back in a few months wanting another abortion or the boyfriend brings his next 13 year-old girlfriend in for an abortion?  Are they going to notice?

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyPutting out the house fire rather than looking for termites and such.

Putting out the house fire by purposely covering up for the arsonist, you mean?  The pregnancy and desire for abortion ore not unconnected to the statutory rape the way termites are unconnected to a fire.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyCould have been the wrong decision.  Neither you nor I no all the facts on the matter.

Neither did the Planned Parenthood employees who were on the phone advising the caller how to break the law.  That's why the law requires them to report it, so that someone qualified to get all of the facts can do an investigation and get them.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyAnd, once again.  Bad things happen.  What is the cure?  Charge the individuals responsible with a crime?  Sure, if you can find evidence they committed one.

Uh, the abortion, itself, contains evidence of a crime in the form of a paternity test -- that is unless the evidence gets disposed of.

The rest of your reply basically deals with whether abortion should be legal or not, which is irrelevant to my points.  All I'll say is that if you really care about knowing what you are talking about on that issue, take a good look at what things were really like before Roe v. Wade and what the abortion laws are like in various other countries, including European countries widely praised for their liberal attitudes toward sex.

Quote from: John MorrowThe rest of your reply basically deals with whether abortion should be legal or not, which is irrelevant to my points.  All I'll say is that if you really care about knowing what you are talking about on that issue, take a good look at what things were really like before Roe v. Wade and what the abortion laws are like in various other countries, including European countries widely praised for their liberal attitudes toward sex.

There's a map of abortion policies in European countries at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6235557.stm

Quote from: jhkimThere's a map of abortion policies in European countries at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6235557.stm

Very nice summary, but read the detailed summaries and don't just look at the map (not directed specifically to you, John).  Many of those countries colored "on demand" on the map have a 12 week limit, counseling and waiting periods, require parental notification for minors, allow conscientious objection, and so on -- all things that are considered "extremist" or unacceptable when proposed in the United States but the way things look when they are worked out democratically because even liberal European countries consider them reasonable limits.  Since that's half of the story I was talking about, you can find the main historical issue to consider with respect to possible consequences of changing abortion laws in the US here.

Quote from: John MorrowThey had an person pose as a 13 year-old and call Planned Parenthood.  They had her clearly explain that she was pregnant by her 22 year-old boyfriend.  At that point, over 90% of the Planned Parenthood locations called (over 900) advised the caller to hide the age of her boyfriend or otherwise help them avoid the legal requirement that they report a relationship like that.

Snip Rest

I don't think I'd be uncomfortable with the cops doing that.

A private organization?  I think that is probably wrong.  I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the person posing as a 13 year old made the story skew as far as possible toward "the right thing here is to help this girl get an abortion ASAP."

I could craft you a scenario, but that will have to wait, due to me being tired and unwilling to send my brain into territory that skeve worthy right this second.

I'm sure you understand that the law and morality are not always on the same side.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyI don't think I'd be uncomfortable with the cops doing that.

Thank you.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyA private organization?  I think that is probably wrong.  I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the person posing as a 13 year old made the story skew as far as possible toward "the right thing here is to help this girl get an abortion ASAP."

The calls weren't that way at all, in my opinion.  You can actually listen to some of them in the TV report I provided a link to earlier in the thread. They sound pretty natural to me except maybe that the caller went out of her way to point out she was 13 and her boyfriend was 22 (necessary to see what the response would be).  I suggest that you listen to them and you can make up your own mind whether you think they were skewing their test or not.

Quote from: NotYourMonkeyI'm sure you understand that the law and morality are not always on the same side.

Correct, but one of the reasons why the law has mandatory reporting is because the morality of the situation is going to be difficult to assess without a real investigation.