Quote from: KoltarHave you seen some of the more blatant anime images? How about just the mild average every damn girl is in a school uniform thing???

 Thats pretty twisted right there.

They have stores that sell used schoolgirl outfits.  They apparently charge more if they aren't washed.

And for those who think it's harmless and Japanese men don't actually do anything to real women, explain posters like this:





(I found more doing a search in Japanese...)

(the first word is "chikan" or molester)

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/taro/images/Chikan_No.jpg
http://frottage.narod.ru/foto/subway-manners-chikan4.jpg
http://frottage.narod.ru/foto/dcp_0453.jpg
http://frottage.narod.ru/foto/subway-manners-chikan5.jpg

Yeah, these are real posters in Japanese subways (URLs provided where they don't seem to like direct links -- from Google Images, search on "chikan" and "subway").  Note how many depict girls in schoolgirl outfits.

Oh, and let's not forget:

Quote from: Koltarfocuses on adult characters doing their jobs.

What an exciting fellow you are.

Quote from: John MorrowI find that a curious attitude to have when you spend so much time on your web site talking about feminism and role-playing and link to pages where they count the images of men and women and whether they are active and passive and so on.  If fantasies are really not anyone's business and nobody is being harmed, then we shouldn't be bothered by a Gor role-playing game, games like FATAL or RaHoWa, or even a role-playing game about men who hunt down, rape, and murder women for fun, should we?  And we shouldn't care how role-playing books depict women or minorities or gays or any other group because it's all a fantasy and nobody is really getting hurt, right?

I would be upset about these things, and voice my opinion about being upset about these things you mention; that doesn't mean that I would have a right to call for them to be censored just because I don't like them.

If someone into writing Gor fanfiction goes out and rapes some woman, he should be prosecuted for raping a woman, he should not be prosecuted for writing Gor fanfiction, no matter how puerile and disgusting one might find it.

RPGPundit

Some of those posters seem a little outrageous. For example, the one where the guy is just idly setting the seat next to him on fire with a zippo.... Is this also common because there is a sign warning against it? How about punching strangers?

In addition, you realize high school girls wear uniforms too? And you're aware of American Pie? The Girl Next Door? And the movies about teen sex that come out more or less every summer?

The pedophilia I can't get behind, and the fanservice in some animes I find a little juvenile (the ecchi/hentai/whatever category I avoid entirely), but I think it's hypocritical to make the teen sex thing a strictly Japanese phenomenon.

Yeah, there's also horrible loli cartoons out there. But what are we going to censor the internet now? The internet is a dumptruck, not a series of tubes

Quote from: VellorianI'm just generally of the opinion that when you're addicted to something, the answer is to avoid it, in every form.

Not many alcoholics in Saudi Arabia

Quote from: beejazzSome of those posters seem a little outrageous. For example, the one where the guy is just idly setting the seat next to him on fire with a zippo.... Is this also common because there is a sign warning against it? How about punching strangers?

Remember that after-work drinking is common.  If it's on the poster, it happens because if it didn't happen, why would they be plastering the subways full of posters telling people not to do it?  The other thing I've seen on posters is vending machine abuse.  The groping is common enough that they run women-only train cars from certain stations at certain hours and one of the guys at JIGG (Japan International Gamer's Guild) talked about his Japanese wife running in to one.  It's not a phantom problem.

Quote from: beejazzIn addition, you realize high school girls wear uniforms too? And you're aware of American Pie? The Girl Next Door? And the movies about teen sex that come out more or less every summer?

Yes.  But I wasn't aware that American Pie or The Girl Next Door had rape scenes or used actresses that looked like they were 13 or younger.

Quote from: beejazzThe pedophilia I can't get behind, and the fanservice in some animes I find a little juvenile (the ecchi/hentai/whatever category I avoid entirely), but I think it's hypocritical to make the teen sex thing a strictly Japanese phenomenon.

I'm not making it a strictly Japanese phenomenon but let's not forget the topic of the original article in this thread.  And don't forget that before that 1999 law mentioned in the article, the creation of child pornography wasn't illegal in Japan and Japan was the top source of child pornography on the Internet.  The point is that that 1999 law didn't make it illegal to possess it.  And we're not talking just high school girls but also little girls.  The little girl fetish stuff in anime as well as the tentacle rape and a generally dysfunctional and nasty attitude toward women and sex is part of a much larger package deal in Japan that doesn't always confine itself neatly to the fantasy realm, which is my point.  

Quote from: beejazzYeah, there's also horrible loli cartoons out there. But what are we going to censor the internet now? The internet is a dumptruck, not a series of tubes

Yet, somehow, the Chinese manage to censor it.  That's not what I'm advocating, however, since there are other ways to deal with it.

Quote from: John MorrowThe little girl fetish stuff in anime as well as the tentacle rape and a generally dysfunctional and nasty attitude toward women and sex is part of a much larger package deal in Japan that doesn't always confine itself neatly to the fantasy realm, which is my point.  

While not denying the particular adolescent and child focus of the Japanese cartoons, I would note that lots of porn has a pretty nasty attitude towards women. "Gagging", "cum dumpster", "tamed teens" and so on, there's some really misogynistic shit out there. Unfortunately misogyny is universal.

Misogyny plus child abuse is of course worse than either one of them alone, but really only in the way that having your leg cut off at the hip is worse than having it cut off at the knee; either is shitty.

Obviously it needs to be made illegal to possess any form of child pornography.

Quote from: John MorrowYet, somehow, the Chinese manage to censor it.  That's not what I'm advocating, however, since there are other ways to deal with it.

What are you advocating then? If this is as big a deal (in the sense of ubiquity that is... it's always a big deal if some real person's getting exploited) as they say... I mean... understatement of the year would be "bummer" but it's all I can come up with at this hour.

Generally, I'm reluctant to believe in the idea that cartoons and video games put ideas in peoples' heads, but I could probably be convinced. And if cartoons on the internet are really prompting Japanese guys to go grope kids on trains then the whole thing needs to get shut down.

And Kyle... you're hella right about misogynistic porn.


Oh... and on a final note... so somebody has lit train seats on fire? That's awesome! I gotta try that some time.

Quote from: beejazzGenerally, I'm reluctant to believe in the idea that cartoons and video games put ideas in peoples' heads, but I could probably be convinced.

I wouldn't expect the stuff to put ideas in anyone's heads, but if the ideas are already there, it can encourage them.

I walk into a game store and see all the game books, that makes me want to game; if I buy a game book and read it, reading it makes me want to game even more! If I'm hungry and walk into a restaurant, I get more hungry, if I smell the food, hungrier still. So if someone fantasises about deviant stuff and then sees it online, well...

I don't think anyone or anything, generally speaking, can make anyone do anything that's not already in them. But it can sure as shit encourage it.

Maybe making kiddie porn should be like "incitement to riot" or "incitement to murder". They're saying "go for it! It's awesome!"

On the other hand, having this shit around lets us track the perverts more easily. Years ago there was a Paedophile's Association in my home state. The government and public wanted to ban it, the police said, "please allow it." See, whenever they had meetings, the police would visit, note down all the licence plates, photograph people coming in and out... They'd be very open about it so that the guys knew they were being watched. Then if it turned out the guy had a family, the police would let the family know the guy was a member, see if they'd had any problems, offer them a chance to get away. And if any kid turned up molested or disappeared, they'd pay the local association members a visit.

So if the cops can do stuff like that with computers, then that perhaps is a reason to let some of these fucked-up cartoons go through - ban them, sure, but let some slip on through by "accident."

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhile not denying the particular adolescent and child focus of the Japanese cartoons, I would note that lots of porn has a pretty nasty attitude towards women. "Gagging", "cum dumpster", "tamed teens" and so on, there's some really misogynistic shit out there. Unfortunately misogyny is universal.

Fair point, though I don't think the intensity of the misogyny is always equal.

Quote from: John MorrowFair point, though I don't think the intensity of the misogyny is always equal.

I wouldn't know, really. You'd have to do a thorough review of all the different published pr0n in each country, make up some sort of misogyny rating to put each on, and then weigh each according to how popular it is.

Sounds like rather a depressing topic for a PhD thesis.

I think it's fair to say the Japanese haven't exactly cornered the market on misogyny and violence against women and children. They just happen to make a lot of cartoons about it.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI wouldn't expect the stuff to put ideas in anyone's heads, but if the ideas are already there, it can encourage them.

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty much it.  And when certain things become ubiquitous, it gives them a certain air of legitimacy and acceptability that they wouldn't have if they were forced into the shadows.  There will always be creeps in this world but when being a creep is mainstream, society has a lot more of them.

There´s a Traveller adventure inside this thread:

It´s their culture (the Japanese´s)!

Who is the UNICEF to take it away from them?

I´d propose the UNICEF also bans firearms in the US. Getting raped is one thing, but getting shot is even worse, no?


Unrelated: WTF is "German Porn"?

Quote from: John MorrowYeah, I'd say that's pretty much it.  And when certain things become ubiquitous, it gives them a certain air of legitimacy and acceptability that they wouldn't have if they were forced into the shadows.  There will always be creeps in this world but when being a creep is mainstream, society has a lot more of them.

I'm all for chasing them to the shadows in the form of criticizing them and condemning them -- I just don't want fantasy equated with real crime.

Quote from: jhkimI'm all for chasing them to the shadows in the form of criticizing them and condemning them -- I just don't want fantasy equated with real crime.

Fair enough.