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Author Topic: Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"  (Read 9757 times)

Kyle Aaron

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2008, 07:12:56 pm »
Kellri, that's brilliant. Thespian Ballbreaker. I love it!
Quote from: Ian Absentia;274894
Ah, and just to add spice to this thread, I note that, right beneath Ron's post,  Old Geezer is pushing his way to the front of the queue to suck moderator dick.
He does that. It's because he's an old communist. Grovelling to self-important authority figures comes with the ideology.

Poor Uncle Ronny gets upset with the thread.
Quote from: Ron Edwards
I've seen what happens to threads after this point before. Anyone who's interested in talking about the actual essays, or the games in them, contact me or come talk about playing them at the Forge.
Translation: "Even the mild criticism I receive at rpg.net is too much for me." I guess he prefers a place where he can have his last word and then shut down the discussion...

Oh well, even if he is a spineless coward he at least has some buddies to defend him by reporting the thread as a personal attack. Well done, mannydipresso!

And -E. says sensible and thoughtful things, which really are out of place on rpg.net.
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David R

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2008, 07:44:27 pm »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274955
Kellri, that's brilliant. Thespian Ballbreaker. I love it!


I'm sad. All my games are thespy...even my fantasy heartbreakers.

Regards,
David R

-E.

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2008, 09:41:05 pm »
Quote from: Kellri;274877
I posted this on another, similarly titled thread a few months earlier on RPGnet:

I think it's time to whip that one out again. Would it qualify as a personal attack?? Let's see.

Hee hee hee hee... Thespy Ballbreaker. Hee hee hee. You should write a Manifesto!

Edited to add: the surest way to get accused of attacking Edwards is to quote him.

Cheers,
-E.
 

Kyle Aaron

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2008, 10:33:30 pm »
That's true with all wilfully blind ideologue types, -E. They hate it when you judge or argue with them based on what they've actually said.
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-E.

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2008, 11:38:23 pm »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274974
That's true with all wilfully blind ideologue types, -E. They hate it when you judge or argue with them based on what they've actually said.


Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I know that but... I keep thinking that if *my* big thing was that I'd come up with this incredibly insightful way of thinking about RPG's but I couldn't bring myself to face what I'd written in a public message board I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning.

I just ... don't *get* these guys.

Cheers,
-E.
 

Kyle Aaron

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2008, 12:02:19 am »
Some people have a strong belief system that can withstand or is even strengthened by critique. Other people have a weak one that can't bear scrutiny.

It's not the ideas or the belief systems themselves, not anything part of them, it's just the brains and courage of the person holding them.

Compare discussing the resurrection of Jesus with (say) a Jesuit theologian and discussing it with some farmer bloke who never finished high school, sitting on his porch out in the countryside somewhere. One welcomes intelligent discussion and is genuinely interested in other points of view, the other one just punches you.

I suppose that implies that education's a part of it. Which it is in some respects, but really I think that open-minded and reasonable people seek education, rather than the education making them open-minded and reasonable. If you're the sort of person who is sure they know everything already then you won't tend to seek new information... You might still have a PhD, but you'll be one of those super-specialised guys, your education will be deep rather than broad.

Another thing, I noticed that on the rpg.net discussion Uncle Ronny said that people could discuss it on his forums. The thing is though, he already shut down the rpg theory forum. So this leaves nowhere he'll discuss his essays with you.
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Arminius

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2008, 12:27:19 am »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274955
Oh well, even if he is a spineless coward he at least has some buddies to defend him by reporting the thread as a personal attack. Well done, mannydipresso!
Manny (formerly Eric J-D or something like that) has written a few good things and I've even had a nice PM chat with him a couple times. But for quite a while all I see out of him is, well, Vladimir-Posnerism (to coin a term).

Quote
And -E. says sensible and thoughtful things, which really are out of place on rpg.net.


Yeah, on the one hand Mr. -E seems to miss the main textual thrust of the heartbreaker essays--I mean "uninformed derivatives of D&D with just one or two nuggets of gold", sure I've seen those. What was that one, Knights and Berserkers and Legerdemain?....pretty much defined the idea, if not by the system (which I really don't know at all) then the utter failure of the author to really explain why anyone should bother with it at all. Which he did to me (i.e., utterly fail to explain the reason for his game) in person at Origins lo these many years ago, BTW.

But it all falls down in the face of Palladium, and Bard's Atlantis, and Talislanta, and very likely Earthdawn. And that's just on the raw mechanical level; once you get to the bit that -E highlighted, the part about "social contract time bombs", the net becomes wider...and less accurate. This is one of the deep messages of the essays. The other message, or implication, really, whether RE realizes it or not, is that heartbreakers are heartbreakers largely because of failures of marketing, not design. And this leads right into his other agenda, which is the creation and maintenance of a market-as-community. I don't think this can be denied, it's only a matter of whether you put a positive spin on it or negative.

Kyle Aaron

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2008, 12:37:17 am »
Vladimir Posner? I had to google that guy. You should have just said "fifth columnist" instead :)

"Market-as-community" is just another way of saying, "only my mum and my friends would buy this." Successful artistic movements don't begin by half a dozen creators getting together and promising to buy and shill each-other's stuff.

-E. made a good jab when he noted that a "heartbreaker" is described as such when it achieves sales which are low... but still more than most Forger stuff which is... called a great success. The standards are of course inconsistent.

Note sig, I have resurrected #therpgsite.
Rules for effective DMing:
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3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
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Arminius

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2008, 02:06:37 am »
Posner wasn't a fifth columnist. Apologies to the non-USians, and really anyone too young to remember the last decade of the Cold war. He wasn't covert at all. He seemed reasonable except that he never really engaged in discussion, it was all uncompromising refutation and apologia. (Ari Fleischer is a more recent practitioner of the art.)

Anyway, yeah, that's one way of seeing "market-as-community". I mean, heck if "hitting chat rooms and usenets with a team of partners" isn't the blueprint for it, what is?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 02:11:45 am by Arminius »

One Horse Town

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2008, 06:00:15 am »
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;275011

Anyway, yeah, that's one way of seeing "market-as-community". I mean, heck if "hitting chat rooms and usenets with a team of partners" isn't the blueprint for it, what is?


Huh. I know that's often the MO employed, but i didn't realise it was a bone fide part of the program.

Drohem

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2008, 11:55:21 am »
Wow, it's crazy how the fanboyz come out of the woodworks immediately on some of the topics over at rpg.net.  -E wrote a well-written post, and was almost immediately accused of trying to start a flame war.  -E never catered to their attacks and responded well in every instance.

Sacrificial Lamb's post was well-written as well.  It called Ron Edwards out for his cowardly and craven attempt to get -E banned or a warning for nothing.  Edward's and his fanboys' claims of character assassination and personal attacks were completely unfounded.

luke

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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 12:38:52 pm »
Hey Lamb,

You know you misread that paragraph of his essay, right? He's not talking about his games or Forge games or my games. He's talking about the Legendary Lives and Darkurthe and Forge of Chaos and all of the kids who are going to continue to design games like that. He's saying that these games may be derivative at first glance, but they're worth playing and discussing. He's saying that they should not be dismissed because they are ostensibly D&D clones.

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jeff37923

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 12:53:46 pm »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274955

Oh well, even if he is a spineless coward he at least has some buddies to defend him by reporting the thread as a personal attack. Well done, mannydipresso!


Why hasn't anyone reported that to the ModSquad as abuse of the Report Function?

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 02:11:05 pm »
Quote from: jeff37923;275098
Why hasn't anyone reported that to the ModSquad as abuse of the Report Function?
Because the Report Function is just a method for the sycophants on rpgnet to display loyalty to the mods?  I mean, they could send in pictures of themselves submissively urinating, or presenting their backsides for dominance humping by the alpha-mods, but that takes up too much bandwidth.

So, they hit the feeder bar, and the mods pet them on their heads, and everyone is happy.  :)
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Halfjack

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Uncle Ron Strikes Again: "the Fantasy Heartbreaker"
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 05:48:10 pm »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274988

Another thing, I noticed that on the rpg.net discussion Uncle Ronny said that people could discuss it on his forums. The thing is though, he already shut down the rpg theory forum. So this leaves nowhere he'll discuss his essays with you.


That's not what Ron said. He said you could discuss it as it pertains to actual play in the actual play forums.
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