Quote from: Jackalope;251315Granted.  However, that is not a rebuttal of my point, which is that there is no reason to believe in an objective entity that can't be defined in any meaningful way.

I would argue "Because you choose to" as the reason. There are many things that may lead you to that choice ranging from hard reasoning (you will most likely have a very weak view of the God character in this set of beliefs) to the real need to find strength outside oneself (the ability to say "God gives me the strength" regardless of whether he truly does or the strength merely is a trick of your belief). Those are not the only two, there are many others. In this way, whether God or gods exist is meaningless to the action. You choose to believe, in something, and that something happens to be a an external God, provable or not. It is an exercise then, to see what you do with the belief and in fact, again, the very existence of the external does not matter as much as the belief itself.

Or, anyone who does not believe like you do is deluding themselves.

Bill

Can I just say that there are 4 or 5 of you that I'm ejoying reading your posts?
Hinterwelt, Wulfgar, and Drew are 3 of 'em, the other 2 or 3 kind of vary.

Also - I think its possible to believe that people have souls, even if you don't believe in a God or gods existing.

One version of that might be a belief in re-incarnation.


 Another version is what one professor or friend of mine called the "Omni-Soul". That would be all the souls of humankind (and intelligent aliens if there are any) make up the great big one SOUL! or "Omni-Soul". While we are on Earth we are detached from the Omni Soul, and when we die we go back to it a bit different. Sometimes we go back to it better sometimes worse.


There are variations on that idea. A friend of mine had the thought that EVERYONE goes to a "Heaven" when they die - but that we all go to our iundividual version of what we think the afterlife is. Christians go to their version, atheists go to either blankness /sleep - or they reincarnate with no knowledge that they had a previous life. His idea was also that the Vikings got their "Valhalla" - because thats what they believed. Also, that people who believed that they had been real scummy bastards go to a version of "Hell" - because thats what they believe they deserve.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;251327Can I just say that there are 4 or 5 of you that I'm ejoying reading your posts?
Hinterwelt, Wulfgar, and Drew are 3 of 'em, the other 2 or 3 kind of vary.

Dude, I made a joke about the Black Fleet; how obscure is that? What's a brother got to do to earn some love from you?

Quote from: Engine;251330Dude, I made a joke about the Black Fleet; how obscure is that? What's a brother got to do to earn some love from you?

You're in there - you're in "My Five" dude.

Its been a weird morning and not enough coffee.


- Ed C.

Quote from: HinterWelt;251321I would argue "Because you choose to" as the reason.

"Because you choose to." isn't a reason.  It explains exactly nothing.

This is really getting beyond the topic of thread -- and despite what Koltar says, I think it's bit ridiculous to start a conversation about the meaning of life and the existence of the soul and then acted disappointed when the topic of God comes up -- but now we're moving into a discussion of faith.

Faith certainly does seem to have some degree of merit, but it is also fraught with danger.  The uncritical acceptance of faith as self-justifying has many troubling consequences, from the terrifying (Eric Rudolph) to the embarrassing (Otherkin).

I'd highly recommend Robert Anton Wilson's Cosmic Trigger: Final Secrets of the Illuminati (read the preface here) to anyone really interested in examining faith and belief.

Its NOT ridiculous.

There are people who have had moral codes or righteous ways of behaving - without believing in a religion, God or being religious.

 It is possible to believe in a Soul and even believe that Life might have a meaning...while also not believing in a God.

Such a thing is possible and plausible.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;251343Its NOT ridiculous.

There are people who have had moral codes or righteous ways of behaving - without believing in a religion, God or being religious.

 It is possible to believe in a Soul and even believe that Life might have a meaning...while also not believing in a God.

Such a thing is possible and plausible.

And again, Ed demonstrates his absolute inability to read with comprehension and follow an argument.  Everything you just said is correct Ed.  Sadly, it has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made -- that it is ridiculous to think that God won't come up in a conversation about the soul and the meaning of life.

Because while it is entirely true that some people believe in the soul, and believe life has meaning, and do not reference God in these beliefs, it is also true that some people believe in the soul, and believe life has meaning, and do reference God in these beliefs.

And yes, it is ridiculous of you to think that because some people believe in the soul, and believe life has meaning, and do not reference God in these beliefs, that everyone involved in the conversation will not reference God in their beliefs.

Again, I estimate your IQ to be about 80.  And I'd seriously like to administer a reading test to you, since I'm pretty sure you read at a less than 6th grade level.

Quote from: Jackalope;251338"Because you choose to." isn't a reason.  It explains exactly nothing.

Precisely, it explains nothing. I will try to explain my point but I do not think you will get it. No, that is not a dig but a reference to what you have explained as your views in past posts.

When a person chooses to believe, they do so for many reasons but the choice is based on self interest. That is to say, it brings them a form of pleasure. It may be the type of thing that it unlocks the inner reserves of will power they had before but they cannot admit that, not to them selves and are probably uncapable of admitting it to others. If they did, then the outer defined source of strength would disappear.

Now, on top of that, it is not necessary int he least to explain it to anyone. It does not matter if it is a belief in a flying unicorn that lives on the moon. It is the belief that give the benefit. The benefit can come in many forms including but not limited to willpower, strength, courage, the ability to love in spite of hatred, compassion, and many others.

So, to turn the issue around. Why is it important they explain it to you? or anyone? So that you will believe? Unlikely. So that you can understand their God? Not likely or necessary (since they admit to not understanding thier God). If their belief brings benefits to them, then what does it matter if they can explain their God to you, give you reasons for worshipping?

Quote from: Jackalope;251338This is really getting beyond the topic of thread -- and despite what Koltar says, I think it's bit ridiculous to start a conversation about the meaning of life and the existence of the soul and then acted disappointed when the topic of God comes up -- but now we're moving into a discussion of faith.

No argument but I understand his sentiment. I think it is difficult for many to discuss such matter without God as a framework.

Quote from: Jackalope;251338Faith certainly does seem to have some degree of merit, but it is also fraught with danger.  The uncritical acceptance of faith as self-justifying has many troubling consequences, from the terrifying (Eric Rudolph) to the embarrassing (Otherkin).

Most definitely. However, faith alone without the framework of Religion, seldom is as dire as Eric Rudolph makes it. So, if a Religion tells you to hate and kill a group of people, Faith then can supply the passion. The lesson we should take here is to review your interpretations of Religions and the articles of your religion critically. "Because the Church told me so" is never an acceptable answer to me. I am never in favor of abdication of moral responsibility to an external source.

Quote from: Jackalope;251338I'd highly recommend Robert Anton Wilson's Cosmic Trigger: Final Secrets of the Illuminati (read the preface here) to anyone really interested in examining faith and belief.

I will endeavor to do so but I already have a formidable reding list with research for Britannia.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;251047No, that is exactly what I meant. If we start taking exceptions based on an individual sect, we can each site exceptions. Accepting Christ is a prerequisite. This cuts across any sect. Having a specific exception in an individual sect can be sited by anyone. I find that confusing to a discussion.

Bill

There is no possible theological discussion at a scope above the sect. A dogma like "Accepting Christ" is so vague as to be useless in practice. Accept him as what? Saviour? Many of the early gnostic Christians didn't, nor do many later day Christians (they take him as a wise teacher).

You're trying to have an overly general discussion here. There's simply nothing worth saying at the level of abstraction you wish to hold it at.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;251519There's simply nothing worth saying at the level of abstraction you wish to hold it at.

Then problem solved.

Thanks!
Bill

Quote from: Jackalope;251315Wulfgar was talking about an impersonal, objective God that is unknowable.  I was arguing that there is no point in believing in an objective, and unknowable God.  You objected, claiming that the belief in a "personal god" saved your life.  Thus, I naturally assumed you were defending religious beliefs, such as the belief in god.

I'm starting to gather that you took my comment out of context, and I did not realize you had done this.

Fair enough. My response was to what I perceived to be an aspect of your position that isn't there. I won't pursue it further.

Quote from: HinterWelt;251177For what it is worth Drew, your experiences are the kind of thing I respect and admire about faith. To me, faith and religion are two different but related things. In the end, if either aids you in getting through a hard time then it has served a good purpose.

Cheers mate.

Quote from: Drew;251933Cheers mate.

...along similar lines. A good friend of mine that lives out west. She is technically a wiccan. She is in a 12 step program and has been sober for 7 plus years now.
Her faith or belief has helped her in this similir way.

She confuses me at times , but I still love her and I want her to succeed.
If there is a God - I want him to watch out for her.


- Ed C.

People have souls.
There is meaning to life.

Please check your private messages, Blackthorne.