Quote from: gleichmanTo my knowledge and in the case of Christianity, those statements are one of the people claiming the religion and not of the religion itself. It would be a grave error to confuse the two.

I think this is very much like the debate on the "Problem of Evil" which didn't seem to be such a terrible problem for the people who actually believe in God.

Quote from: BalbinusPeople differ on whether this is a good or a bad thing.

I think it's a bad thing to the extent that in the more class-mobile United States, people would look at successful people and try to emulate them because they looked up to them but now they tend to believe that successful people are just like them and are successful only because they were lucky or because they unfairly took advantage of people.

Too much idealist folderol in this thread. People think (a) what they're told to think by their family and leaders (b) what their material conditions lead them to think. Morality follows society, not the other way around.

Quote from: John MorrowDo I need to go past the part where it explains why he was jailed for torturing someone for 6 hours and collecting their blood in a cup or are the pretty landscapes supposed to help me forget that mental image?

You need to go past that part.

Quote from: John MorrowIf those "truths" come in a package deal with torturing people, I think I'm going to have to reject the package.  Sorry.

I'd be surprised if you did otherwise.  I wasn't advocating his religion, only confirming that, yes, even that religion may have some "truths"... even if I don't agree with the total package.

Quote from: John MorrowHitler and John Wayne Gacey were both painters but I'm not going to spend the effort to try to find beauty in their art.

I'm not defending him.  You were the one who brought it up, probably not expecting the answer I gave you, but the truth is that even in that religion there can be truths about our existance.

It really is an interesting documentary, and worth your effort.  It doesn't make Gaul seem "cool" and it's not full of offensive material.  It's up to you though -- but you were the one who was asking.

Quote from: StuartI'd be surprised if you did otherwise.  I wasn't advocating his religion, only confirming that, yes, even that religion may have some "truths"... even if I don't agree with the total package.

A broken clock is right twice a day.  That doesn't make it an accurate clock or something that I want to keep around.  If all you are telling me is that even a broken clock is right sometimes, which is is two times a day, that's fine.  But I think defining things like "truths" so broadly that you essentially create a tautology no matter what you tack "contains some 'truths'" on to that you've done an injustice to the terms "truth" and "truths".

Quote from: EngineLet me try this: if humans did not exist, would the BMW be a better car?

Local TV commercial run during Fox News just before William Shatner appeared on the Bill O'Reilly's show started out:

"When it comes to what you drive, you want the best...  You want a BMW"

Quote from: John MorrowA broken clock is right twice a day.  That doesn't make it an accurate clock or something that I want to keep around.  If all you are telling me is that even a broken clock is right sometimes, which is is two times a day, that's fine.  But I think defining things like "truths" so broadly that you essentially create a tautology no matter what you tack "contains some 'truths'" on to that you've done an injustice to the terms "truth" and "truths".

If you want to actually watch the documentary, then we could discuss it. I'm pretty confident that it's not what you're expecting. Otherwise we can leave it at me confirming that, yes, I think all religions* have insights, truths, lessons, interesting perspectives, or just "things to think about".  That's not a point-of-view that you need to share.

* This includes some very old clocks that people no longer use to tell time.

Quote from: StuartIf you want to actually watch the documentary, then we could discuss it. I'm pretty confident that it's not what you're expecting. Otherwise we can leave it at me confirming that, yes, I think all religions* have insights, truths, lessons, interesting perspectives, or just "things to think about".  That's not a point-of-view that you need to share.

I found the beginning a fairly distasteful but I'll consider it.

Quote from: John MorrowI found the beginning a fairly distasteful but I'll consider it.

Agreed.  Once you get to the actual film crew going out to Gaul's house -- that's when it changes gears and becomes much more interesting.  I think they put that stuff at the beginning so you'd appreciate why the film crew is so freaked out about going to his house in the middle of nowhere.

I watched another documentary on metal -- A Headbanger's Journey -- and Gaul has a short interview in that as well.  Interesting to compare and see what parts are his stage persona and what parts are more genuine.  Also in the second documentary is Alice Cooper talking about how he doesn't believe any of them are "real" satanists and it's all "Halloween".  (Alice Cooper is a pretty funny guy -- good sense of humour.

Quote from: StuartAlso in the second documentary is Alice Cooper talking about how he doesn't believe any of them are "real" satanists and it's all "Halloween".  (Alice Cooper is a pretty funny guy -- good sense of humour.

Alice Cooper has become a born-again Christian.

(I'm willing to believe that much of the Satanism of Heavy Metal music is all show, but I'm not sure all of it is.)

I didn't know that.

Alice Cooper is awesome.  Here's his interview from the 2nd documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XE4Cv5tBlg (just Alice C making jokes)

"It's so Spinal Tap"

Quote from: John Morrow(I'm willing to believe that much of the Satanism of Heavy Metal music is all show, but I'm not sure all of it is.)

Okay, another short clip from A Headbanger's Journey where he talks about that (Venom and Slayer aren't real Satanist... but what about Norwegian Black Metal?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3QpAIsAhao

I think you'll like this doc more than the first.  It's more funner.

Quote from: StuartOkay, another short clip from A Headbanger's Journey where he talks about that (Venom and Slayer aren't real Satanist... but what about Norwegian Black Metal?)

Based on the actions and interviews of the musicians in question, I think Alice Cooper's assessment is inaccurate.  And I'm sorry but I don't find pictures of churches being burned down all that funny.  

And I've reviewed the lyrics of Therion (because I unfortunately actually enjoy their music) and almost every single song (except for their cover of an ABBA song and a few others) is what I would call gnostic-Satanic in a fairly subtle way.  That's a lot of work for a stage act.

At least there is hope for Finland. (also here)

Of course one of RPGPundits heroes also finds burning churches fodder for a joke.

Quote from: John MorrowAnd I'm sorry but I don't find pictures of churches being burned down all that funny.

...

Um... what?

The tone of the entire documentary (A Headbanger's Journey), the music, editing and narration make it a lot lighter and more "fun" than the other documentary (True Norwegian Black Metal) which is very interesting -- but quite serious.  AHBJ is more fun(ner) than TNBM.  There's serious topics in it -- Arson isn't funny.  Murder is even less funny.  Yet there are more funny moments in AHBJ than TNBM.  Alice Cooper's bit is funny.  And it *is* pretty funny when Ghaal answers the question: what's your music about?

...
...
"Satan"
>Sips Wine<

Because he does the *exact same thing* in the other documentary.  Regardless if he believes that or not, it's a campy bit of theatrics, and pretty over the top.

Anyway... that's enough of this for me.