Note in  the following post I'm using the phrase western and eastern rather loosely.

Lately as A fan of animation I have been thinking of the state of western animation and it's current failings. As such I think I have stumbled on some insight and would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
First I would like to make sure we are all on the same page more or less, in that animation is actuly several different markets. They are TV animation, direct to video releases and full theatrical releases, and that these markets all have there own business norms. That is to say there is a big difference between the next big Disney release and power puff girls or the next Barbie movie.

I'll now try to to out line each idea separately with a bold title.

The lack of action shows

When I was a kid action programing was still the mainstay of cartoons. But has fallen off and frankly died pretty much entirely. There used to be some fantastic shows out like Thundercats and Silverhawks or Galaxy Rangers. I have come to think that the lack of action cartoons on TV is a contributing factor, while the like's of Adventure time and Gravity falls are fine shows in there own right I do not believe they can fully replace action and action adventure programing.

The lack of "adult" animation beyond "family guy"

While it's not literally only Family guy I do think the lack in diversity is A part of the problem. After all what was the last adult cartoon to be made in the west that was more then A pile of crude jokes? Heavy mettle or Fire and ice as far as I know.

The popularity of anime is do to the failings of western animation not the other way round
I expect this idea may be controversial but I have come to believe this to be true and ties in the lack of diversity in the western animation market. After all what competition is there for anime from western animation? Little and none.
This can easily be demonstrated by looking at shows and comparing them to there lack of western equivalents. Whats more it can be done while avoiding the 800lb gorillas. Such examples include but are not limited to Witch Hunter Robin,noir, and Aria. What does the Western animation have to compete with programs like these? nothing and whats more the success of these programs proves there is A demand for such programing.

This is the first half or so of the thoughts I have but its a good star what do the rest of you think?

I thought we were in a Western Animation Renaissance!

Adventure Time? Regular Show? They have embraced absurdity in comedy and drama in a way I had not seen before in East or West animation.

And there's my fav, Wander Over Yonder which is consistently surprising for weaving philosophy into its childish (on the surface) plots.

As for action, what about the Star Wars animated series?

True, none of these are "adult shows", but they are more mature than any Western animation I grew up with in the 70s.

Eh, I think there's something to what Kosmos was saying.

Western Animation MUST be one of the three...
1. Only for kids.
2. If there's any merit for adults, it has to be on top of a children's movie and certainly be drawn that way.
3. Be for adults, in which case it's comedy or porn.

Disney/Pixar do a great job of movies that can play to both adults and children with both thoroughly enjoying them, but aside from them any animation series worth anything is comedy.  Animation is not seen as a vehicle for "real drama" or whatever.

Quote from: kosmos1214;938925There used to be some fantastic shows out like Thundercats and Silverhawks or Galaxy Rangers.

While these provide useful and comforting nostalgia for me, and Galaxy Rangers is a particular favorite of mine (to the point that remaking it is still one of my 'when I grow up' goals), these shows sucked, as did He-Man, Transformers, My Little Pony, G.I. Joe, Ghostbusters, and everything else that was based solely to exploit trends or market toys. It was only after Disney raised the bar and my biological childhood that we got South Park, Rick and Morty, Steven Universe, Futurama, Adventure Time, the DC animated shows (which barring a few exceptions has been some of the best storytelling I've ever seen) and anything Lauren Faust has ever touched.

Quote from: Spinachcat;938950I thought we were in a Western Animation Renaissance!

We are.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939071Western Animation MUST be one of the three...

And Anime has its target markets too.

But that's a problem with the market, not the art.

Quote from: kosmos1214;938925The lack of "adult" animation beyond "family guy"[/b

While it's not literally only Family guy I do think the lack in diversity is A part of the problem. After all what was the last adult cartoon to be made in the west that was more then A pile of crude jokes? Heavy mettle or Fire and ice as far as I know.

see also: Titan AE, The Corpse Bride, Beowulf, The Triplets of Bellville, A Scanner Darkly, The 2 Hellboy animated films, Persepolis, 9, Coraline, The Amazing Screw-on Head, The many, many Bruce Timm DC Animated films, Dead Space: Aftermath, Where the Dead Go to Die, Anomalisa, and When Black Birds Fly

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;939236While these provide useful and comforting nostalgia for me, and Galaxy Rangers is a particular favorite of mine (to the point that remaking it is still one of my 'when I grow up' goals), these shows sucked, as did He-Man, Transformers, My Little Pony, G.I. Joe, Ghostbusters, and everything else that was based solely to exploit trends or market toys.

I can make the argument that all entertainment is solely based on exploting trends or to market toys. Shit, I don't even have to broaden the definition of Toy, since there's a collectables market that adults participate in.



I still enjoy the Transformers cartoons. I enjoy them for what they are, and I'm not going to hop on a soapbox and proclaim they're something deeper than kid's adventure cartoons. But I will say that there's some level of effort that went into a lot of of those 80's cartoon that went beyond just making 30 minute commercials.

Quote from: kosmos1214;938925The popularity of anime is do to the failings of western animation not the other way round
I expect this idea may be controversial but I have come to believe this to be true and ties in the lack of diversity in the western animation market. After all what competition is there for anime from western animation? Little and none.
This can easily be demonstrated by looking at shows and comparing them to there lack of western equivalents. Whats more it can be done while avoiding the 800lb gorillas. Such examples include but are not limited to Witch Hunter Robin,noir, and Aria. What does the Western animation have to compete with programs like these? nothing and whats more the success of these programs proves there is A demand for such programing.

This is the first half or so of the thoughts I have but its a good star what do the rest of you think?

I think a lot of Anime is crap. There's some that I really like, some that I kinda like, and a lot of shovelware shows that I fire up on Netflix, watch about 3-15 minutes, and then turn off because its boring or stupid or the thousandth iteration of Harem Comedies, or Tournament Fighters, etc.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;939547I think a lot of Anime is crap. There's some that I really like, some that I kinda like, and a lot of shovelware shows that I fire up on Netflix, watch about 3-15 minutes, and then turn off because its boring or stupid or the thousandth iteration of Harem Comedies, or Tournament Fighters, etc.

I think a lot of Marvel and DC capeshit is crap too. And superheroes are dominating the geek scene right now, unfortunately.

But I'll admit that both anime and the Marvel/DC capeshit are better than a lot of these brain-dead "lol random" comedies that dominate Western Animation right now. Especially the bullshit that is Adult Swim's original comedies (with the notable exception of Rick and Morty, which is actually good) or the likes of Teen Titans Go! (which combines the worst aspects of lol random comedy and capeshit)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;940132... or the likes of Teen Titans Go!

*TRIGGERED*

Easily one of the top 10 most willfully despicable things ever done to an IP. The fact that the original voice actors have gone along with that deliberately self-destructive travesty is infuriating.

Modern anime is leagues ahead of western animation (barring the moe crap). I'd say this has happened over the last decade or so. I just wish more anime was released in the US with good english dubs. Reading subs is a bit annoying.

Quote from: danbuter;940236Modern anime is leagues ahead of western animation (barring the moe crap). I'd say this has happened over the last decade or so. I just wish more anime was released in the US with good english dubs. Reading subs is a bit annoying.

Amen

Quote from: danbuter;940236Modern anime is leagues ahead of western animation (barring the moe crap). I'd say this has happened over the last decade or so. I just wish more anime was released in the US with good english dubs. Reading subs is a bit annoying.

Actually modern Anime is all over the place. You just tend to see only the good stuff. Japan pumps out alot of low grade stuff too that is right on par with the lower end of US animation. Theres also been an increasing over-use of CG that really detracts.

The main problems with US animation is that A: Its going to forever be seen as kids stuff. B: Will forever be heavily censored. Even the new MLP has had the censor eraser applied to episodes. C: Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon post 2000 have dragged down animation quality to new lows while mocking older cartoons. D: Nothings given time to garner ratings and tends to die stillborn.

Its the same in Russia. Though they still sometimes get out another great piece.

Quote from: Omega;940303Actually modern Anime is all over the place. You just tend to see only the good stuff. Japan pumps out alot of low grade stuff too that is right on par with the lower end of US animation. Theres also been an increasing over-use of CG that really detracts.

Right, just Sturgeon's Law as usual, nothing to see here.

Keep in mind though that a portion of the non anime cartoons we grew up with are in fact anime as they were produced in Japan or Korea. Same with some of the French animated shows. Possibly moreso as they commission alot more joint ventures with Japan.

Ulysse 31 and Il était une fois… l'Espace comes to mind as two of those. Meitantei Hōmuzu (aka: Sherlock Hound) is another, except as an Italian venture. Not to mention TSR/Marvel's own D&D animated series. That was done Toei Animation.

Note while parts of this are directed at you as individuals it is also intended to be a general response of sorts so please read the whole thing
Note 2 I intended to post this the day after my 1st post but real life kept getting in the way as such there are several days worth of reply here that I felt where necessary to post as a cohesive group as to not confuse my point.

Quote from: Spinachcat;938950I thought we were in a Western Animation Renaissance!

Adventure Time? Regular Show? They have embraced absurdity in comedy and drama in a way I had not seen before in East or West animation.

And there's my fav, Wander Over Yonder which is consistently surprising for weaving philosophy into its childish (on the surface) plots.

As for action, what about the Star Wars animated series?

True, none of these are "adult shows", but they are more mature than any Western animation I grew up with in the 70s.

While yes there have been some fantastic shows there is one major point I believe you are over looking.You see all of those shows have something in common they are over or ending. Adventure time is coming to an end you can already watch the finale of the regular show on the cartoon network app and Wander Over Yonder was canned back in june,while Craig McCrackenn may want to continue the series the simple fact is unless another channel picks it up its DOA.As to the idea that western animation is in a Renaissance 8 to 10 months ago before I started baking on this line of thought I would have agreed with you. While I would say that Disney is in a Renaissance but not western animation as A whole.As to Star Wars I will openly admit it was not on my mind when I wrote up my last post, but what you need to ask your self is this would the Star Wars animated series be being made if it where not tied to A larger property??? The answer is no it would not. The same is true for the TMNT series on nick.
As to the maturity I very much see A one step forward two steps back sort of dance going on.Consider that the like of Thundercats(2011) was canned after A single season despite solid ratings for its time slot.While there are some very solid shows out there I also see in the TV market A distinct lack of verity.An industry that produces A large amount of quality material may not be healthy if there is A lack of verity.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939071Eh, I think there's something to what Kosmos was saying.

Western Animation MUST be one of the three...
1. Only for kids.
2. If there's any merit for adults, it has to be on top of a children's movie and certainly be drawn that way.
3. Be for adults, in which case it's comedy or porn.

Disney/Pixar do a great job of movies that can play to both adults and children with both thoroughly enjoying them, but aside from them any animation series worth anything is comedy.  Animation is not seen as a vehicle for "real drama" or whatever.

Yes the animation age ghetto this is part of but not the whole problem.Though it does have A bit of A circular effect on what gets produced(all animation is for kids there for all animation we green light must be safe for kids ect  ect).A good resent example comes from the movie sausage party.Look at the cast of people they had on board. Look at the successful track record they makers of the film have. Now consider that it took them forever to fine funding, combined with the fact that again and again they had someone  interested in funding it and the funding disappeared as soon as they told them it was to be an animated movie. Four or five years ago I was convinced the animation age ghetto was dead, as it turns out not only was I wrong I feel it is safe to say it is worse then ever. Another thing to consider is the matrix movies. The creators of those movies where originally inspired by Ghost in the shell, they actuly brought A copy in to the pitch with them and show one of the bigger fight scenes and said "we want to do this but for real". If they had wanted to do an animated movie I have A funny feeling they would have been turned down.
note if any one here is unfamiliar with the animation age ghetto there are 2 very good write ups on it that you may find helpful
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimationAgeGhetto
http://mrenter.deviantart.com/journal/A-Brief-History-of-the-Animation-Age-Ghetto-535685216  

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;939236While these provide useful and comforting nostalgia for me, and Galaxy Rangers is a particular favorite of mine (to the point that remaking it is still one of my 'when I grow up' goals), these shows sucked, as did He-Man, Transformers, My Little Pony, G.I. Joe, Ghostbusters, and everything else that was based solely to exploit trends or market toys. It was only after Disney raised the bar and my biological childhood that we got South Park, Rick and Morty, Steven Universe, Futurama, Adventure Time, the DC animated shows (which barring a few exceptions has been some of the best storytelling I've ever seen) and anything Lauren Faust has ever touched.



We are.



And Anime has its target markets too.

But that's a problem with the market, not the art.

Yes and no the may not be A problem with the art not directly, but A problem with the industry will affect the art. While we can argue all day that A show was bad or good there are A few specific ones I feel can be pointed to as having been good.
First is galaxy rangers it had A considerable adult fallowing at the time it was new. The second is captain planet it had A way of talking about real world issues that was and is very helpful for a child trying to understand the world(even when its as out of date as it was for me). The 3rdThat come to my mind is Jem For its excellent use of social situation and problems for its action. While yes western animation has its markets the same as anime the big difference is that anime regularly produces things that fall out side of these normal markets. such as sound of the sky, the garden of words ,summer wars [U=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_iRiRnS4UU]living for the day after tomorrow[/U] or to bring up the 800lb gorilla the wind rises.
Whats more is that every now and again anime produces A show that completely revolutionizes its genre A very good example comes from [U=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL25C0H9vVw]revolutionary girl Utena [/U].With its duels that where as much about ideals as action like [U=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaKh1vExh64]her 1st duel with Juri[/U]or [U=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdfdog4Xemo]her second  battle with Saionji[/U]. Whats more that searise did somwthing unheard of at the time, it had A lesbian romance that didn't end in complete tragedy.
As ratman brought up all media chases the dollar to one degree or another. Its easy to forget that all the famous paintings of the Renaissance where commissioned or that Shakespeare was tring to make a living off of his plays.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;939547I can make the argument that all entertainment is solely based on exploting trends or to market toys. Shit, I don't even have to broaden the definition of Toy, since there's a collectables market that adults participate in.



I still enjoy the Transformers cartoons. I enjoy them for what they are, and I'm not going to hop on a soapbox and proclaim they're something deeper than kid's adventure cartoons. But I will say that there's some level of effort that went into a lot of of those 80's cartoon that went beyond just making 30 minute commercials.



I think a lot of Anime is crap. There's some that I really like, some that I kinda like, and a lot of shovelware shows that I fire up on Netflix, watch about 3-15 minutes, and then turn off because its boring or stupid or the thousandth iteration of Harem Comedies, or Tournament Fighters, etc.

I under stand where you are coming from and I'm not saying there aren't bad anime out there the point I'm making is that in general the anime market is considerably stronger then the western animation market and that this is more do to there own failings then anything.

Quote from: Omega;940502Keep in mind though that a portion of the non anime cartoons we grew up with are in fact anime as they were produced in Japan or Korea. Same with some of the French animated shows. Possibly moreso as they commission alot more joint ventures with Japan.

Ulysse 31 and Il était une fois… l'Espace comes to mind as two of those. Meitantei Hōmuzu (aka: Sherlock Hound) is another, except as an Italian venture. Not to mention TSR/Marvel's own D&D animated series. That was done Toei Animation.

I find this has A lot to do with how you split anime from animation as a whole. For example I consider avatar the last air bender a western cartoon while it was animated in Japan it was written by A westerner. Also as A rule I consider french animetion to be western animation even thou the french and Japanese use the same word for it.

Now i will fill in some of the other thoughts that got left out of the 1st post.

Disney make western animation look stronger then it is.
In a nutshell just that If I take the Disney movies out of the last year 2016 I'm left with A bunch of crap and 2 movies KUBO AND THE TWO STRINGS  and sausage party, and sausage party is damn subjective.

There is a general over reliance on Disney in  western animation
A good example is flat animated movies what was the last western animated movie you know of with a theatrical release? Unless I missed one it was Disney's princess and the frog. When that movie failed flat animation took A huge hit and it still has not recovered.

I'm out of time so I'm posting this now even though there more as it's taken me way to damn long to get this out.

A very unique view I'd say. The vast majority of anime these days seems strictly made for teens and arrested adolescents. Miyazaki and Anno have both been very critical of the economic and artistic state of anime. The lost of Satoshi Kon was a major blow to actually intelligent, adult anime. Shinkai seems to be the only one still making good features outside of Ghibli-alumni.

In terms of the West you seem unaware of the wonderful and very beautiful SONG OF THE SEA. France and Quebec also continue to produce very good animated features like APRIL AND THE EXTRAORDINARY WORLD.