This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: The Movie Thread  (Read 96432 times)

Bedrockbrendan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12695
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2055 on: December 27, 2017, 01:50:29 PM »
Quote from: Voros;1016375
No offense taken, we're just debating movies after all! I do think critics have historically been biased against genre films, horror in particular, but feel that has changed over the years. It sounds like you're looking for much the same in a film writer as I do, I prefer a conversational style that communicates intelligently what a critic liked or disliked in a film. Some of the more academic critics can be excellent though, David Bordwell writes very well about the art of editing in HK action films for instance.

I like all kinds of films, from trashy B-films to slow-as-fuck arthouse films so I read a pretty wide variety of critics and websites. It helps find the gems out there, particularly in a genre like horror where a lot of films are produced but it is hard to find the better modern films. I don't have the time to waste watching mediocre films these days.

I agree that there are some excellent genre-specific review sites on genres like horror, martial arts and B-films that are just as good as the 'mainstream' critics.

I haven't read the Bordwell book, but that is an example of exactly the kind of thing I'd happily read. Because it is talking about a practical aspect of movie making. That said, I think people sometimes go off the deep end with that stuff as well (getting so focused on technique they experience the movies in a way other audiences simply don't---and to a degree technique is meant to be invisible). Or they lord it over people to make their opinion on a movie sound more impressive. The same thing happens in music. I can go on and on about the techniques a writer or performer is using, but at the end of the day, that alone doesn't make it a good piece of music (and I've heard many great pieces of music that were more a product of intuition than technique---and sometimes too much great technique is bad or masks a lack of inspiration). But I do find knowing that stuff handy, especially if it helps me express a thought about what I am seeing (sometimes I will see a movie, be moved by a shot, and have to describe it in purely flavorful language rather than technical language, because I don't really know the latter). So that kind of critical stuff, I am fine reading. It is when I get into the more theoretical stuff, I tend to lose interest. Also pretentiousness bothers me in critics. I want their honest opinion. A lot of critics sound like they are saying what they think they need to say to sound smart or cultured. I want someone who doesn't care if liking or hating a particular movie makes him or her a rube in the eyes of certain critics and viewers. I don't like critics who feel like they are sneering at people they consider less sophisticated than themselves (and I feel like there are a lot of people like that in the critic community).

Armchair Gamer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 3009
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2056 on: December 27, 2017, 06:22:07 PM »
Quote from: Voros;1016378
She doesn't fly. The Force has often been portrayed as a form of telekinesis so she uses the Force to move in zero gravity. That it is being critized shows the imagination failure and nit picking of so many SW 'fans.'

   *Shrug* My problems with it were:
   1. TFA, and moreso the supplemental material (which Lucasfilm has been emphasizing is now canon since 2014), made it pretty clear that Leia never got beyond the rudiments of Jedi training. This may be less of an issue when seen in conjunction with Rey's ability to do just about anything without any training. :)
   2. It gave me flashbacks to the end of Star Trek: Nemesis. :)

   I saw the film on Saturday, and it was more or less what I expected based on the review of my go-to reviewer and the spoilers I'd been exposed to--a fun ride and a visual delight, but with overdone humor, conflicting thematics (sacrifice to save lives is good except when it's not?) and highly debatable characterization choices. Then again, I'm not sure I went in with an open mind. I am heavily invested in the Expanded Universe, and while I was perfectly willing to give the New Canon a chance, I'm just not finding it as satisfying as my curated, selective vision of the EU. There's nothing in the New Canon that's hit the lows of the old EU, to be sure, but I could ignore most of that stuff, and there's nothing in it that matches the stuff I liked the best, either.

   
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

  I have no complaints with Rey's origin, although I'm not sure that Episode IX will mine the potential meaning I see there. My major issues with the film were the pointlessness of Snoke, the overdone humor and irony coupled with relentless bleakness and apparent cynicism--a subtext in TFA that this film doubled down in in many regards--and the characterization of Luke Skywalker, especially with Ben's backstory. I'm sorry, but the idea that Luke Skywalker, who threw away his lightsaber and faced suffering and death rather than kill Darth Vader, would even for a moment draw a lightsaber on his nephew ... it feels contrived and of a piece with the aforementioned cynicism.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 06:55:26 PM by Armchair Gamer »

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2057 on: December 27, 2017, 07:29:04 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1016451
*Shrug* My problems with it were:
   1. TFA, and moreso the supplemental material (which Lucasfilm has been emphasizing is now canon since 2014), made it pretty clear that Leia never got beyond the rudiments of Jedi training. This may be less of an issue when seen in conjunction with Rey's ability to do just about anything without any training. :)
   2. It gave me flashbacks to the end of Star Trek: Nemesis. :)

   I saw the film on Saturday, and it was more or less what I expected based on the review of my go-to reviewer and the spoilers I'd been exposed to--a fun ride and a visual delight, but with overdone humor, conflicting thematics (sacrifice to save lives is good except when it's not?) and highly debatable characterization choices. Then again, I'm not sure I went in with an open mind. I am heavily invested in the Expanded Universe, and while I was perfectly willing to give the New Canon a chance, I'm just not finding it as satisfying as my curated, selective vision of the EU. There's nothing in the New Canon that's hit the lows of the old EU, to be sure, but I could ignore most of that stuff, and there's nothing in it that matches the stuff I liked the best, either.

   
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

  I have no complaints with Rey's origin, although I'm not sure that Episode IX will mine the potential meaning I see there. My major issues with the film were the pointlessness of Snoke, the overdone humor and irony coupled with relentless bleakness and apparent cynicism--a subtext in TFA that this film doubled down in in many regards--and the characterization of Luke Skywalker, especially with Ben's backstory. I'm sorry, but the idea that Luke Skywalker, who threw away his lightsaber and faced suffering and death rather than kill Darth Vader, would even for a moment draw a lightsaber on his nephew ... it feels contrived and of a piece with the aforementioned cynicism.

This lines up with the review over at The Alexandrian.

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39260/reviews/the-last-jedi-a-reflection-and-a-critique
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Aglondir

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 1588
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2058 on: December 27, 2017, 10:56:54 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1016456
This lines up with the review over at The Alexandrian.

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39260/reviews/the-last-jedi-a-reflection-and-a-critique

Interesting, complex, and multi-faceted review. While I don't agree with all of the points, I do like the conclusion:

Quote from: Tthe Alexandrian
So, here's my final verdict: As a Star Wars film, The Last Jedi earns a D. Separated from the saga and treated as a form of indulgent fan fiction, I give the film on its own merits a B+.

If you can, like me, separate this film from its destructively nihilistic base through the simple mental expedient of saying #notmystarwars with positive instead of negative intentions, then I highly recommend The Last Jedi. It's a wonderful and beautiful and powerful film.

But I won't blame you if you can't.



(Edit: I have no idea if Spoiler Warnings even matter in this thread any longer, but here's the obligatory warning that some may follow, even though they were mentioned upthread.)


I give it an F because of Rian's abyssmal character choices (Leia, Luke, Rey); disrespecting the audience with lazy storytelling (Snoke, Rey's parents, Phasma); the continuity-busting hijinks which invalidate all of the previous movies, and make one wonder if he's even seen the prior films (hyperspeed ramming as a weapon, becoming a Jedi without training, questionable tech insertions.)

Applying the "not my X" mantra with positive intent is a tricky thing to do; several episodes of Star Trek shine when you think of them as something else. And applying "mental blind spots" also works: I managed to tune out Jar Jar's presence, but it still brought TPM down more than one notch. I can't do either of those for TLJ. Flying Princess Leia, Luke Failwalker, and Rey Needs No Training are horrible ideas that never should have made it past the lamestorming session.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 11:03:12 PM by Aglondir »

Aglondir

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 1588
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2059 on: December 27, 2017, 11:12:34 PM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1016087
What I will say is I do think there is a big gap between what audiences consider to be a good movie and what critics often consider a good movie to be. The wider that gap gets, the less they are even speaking the same language about media. I do think that is an issue, but it is way bigger than one Star Wars movie.


This is not the first time this disparity has happened: Batman v Superman (Crirtics 27, Audience 63). That's a 36 point spread, almost as high as TLJ's 40 point spread (91/51, and falling on both since I last checked two days ago.)

You're on to something with the quoted phrase, which deserves a few days of thought.

Aglondir

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 1588
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2060 on: December 27, 2017, 11:38:34 PM »
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1015989
The reaction to change? Well, it is worth reminding that Empire Strikes back is 35+ years old now, so if people haven't now had a chance to adjust to it's revelations by now then they really do have issues - but it is actually a matter of historical record that some critics did slate ESB when it came out for things like the awkward romance between Han and Leia, the petulance of Luke Skywalker, the fact that Yoda was an annoying small green alien who looked nothing like what a 'great warrior' should look like, or the stupidity of the characters getting caught by Boba Fett or Darth Vader respectively, or Han getting frozen, Luke getting his hand cut off and finding out Vader was his father and the general downbeat of much of the movie. Since then, and after the final instalment of Return of the Jedi concluded the full arc, fans have come to appreciate it.


I was too young to pay attention to critics back then, and now I'm too old... but I can assure you that no one who walked out of the theater back in '80 after seeing ESB thought anything like that. We were excited, memerized, even speechless about what we had just seen. It was like nothing that had come before, including the first film. I don't think a movie will ever elicit that sense of magic, wonder, and sheer majesty as ESB did. Perhaps it was due to our youth; the right movie hitting at the right time in our lives. Or perhaps today's youth also experience this same sense of magic in Star Wars movies? I sense they are only mildly impressed.

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2061 on: December 28, 2017, 12:06:27 AM »
Quote from: Aglondir;1016479
I was too young to pay attention to critics back then, and now I'm too old... but I can assure you that no one who walked out of the theater back in '80 after seeing ESB thought anything like that. We were excited, memerized, even speechless about what we had just seen. It was like nothing that had come before, including the first film. I don't think a movie will ever elicit that sense of magic, wonder, and sheer majesty as ESB did. Perhaps it was due to our youth; the right movie hitting at the right time in our lives.

Critics weren't as (or didn't seem as) numerous and prevalent. Siskel and Ebert were the only movie critics I was even aware of back then.
Now, hundreds of reviews are a few seconds away via the internet.

Most of my Star Wars fandom info came from stuff like Starlog magazine... back when magazines were the internet. :)

Quote
Or perhaps today's youth also experience this same sense of magic in Star Wars movies? I sense they are only mildly impressed.

I'm sure they're entertained. I'm pretty skeptical that, in 30 years, the sequels will be anything like how the original trilogy is remembered.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 12:10:56 AM by Ratman_tf »
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Warboss Squee

  • Lord of the Dance
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3040
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2062 on: December 28, 2017, 02:35:13 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1016456
This lines up with the review over at The Alexandrian.

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/39260/reviews/the-last-jedi-a-reflection-and-a-critique


Lines up with mine as well.

Headless

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2063 on: December 28, 2017, 09:29:39 AM »
Read it.  I agree with him.  Except I don't think it negates the victories of the previous generation, illustrates that the peace is harder to win than the war.  More to say, hands too cold to type.

joriandrake

  • Random Encounter
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2064 on: December 28, 2017, 11:43:45 AM »
I just heard of Orville the first time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9juvAoaPu4

and now I'm already a fan due to this one video, I'll watch it all (edit: the episodes) as soon as possible
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 12:13:05 PM by joriandrake »

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2065 on: December 28, 2017, 12:43:33 PM »
Quote from: joriandrake;1016581
I just heard of Orville the first time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9juvAoaPu4

and now I'm already a fan due to this one video, I'll watch it all (edit: the episodes) as soon as possible

It's a good show. I have some nitpicks, but they're just nitpicks.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Voros
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3537
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2066 on: December 28, 2017, 01:53:48 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1016451
*Shrug* My problems with it were:
   1. TFA, and moreso the supplemental material (which Lucasfilm has been emphasizing is now canon since 2014), made it pretty clear that Leia never got beyond the rudiments of Jedi training. This may be less of an issue when seen in conjunction with Rey's ability to do just about anything without any training. :)


I have no idea how you got that from TFA and I don't give two shits about 'supplemental material' or 'New Canon' (the capitalization here is laughable and part of the problem).' I watch these as popcorn adventure films for families and kids and that's all I care about.

This kind of OCD thrashing in the weeds talk is what led to the beatiful nuking of the mess that was the EU. People applying Thesis level attention to a homage to Buck Rogers is absurd.

Armchair Gamer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • A
  • Posts: 3009
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2067 on: December 28, 2017, 02:06:00 PM »
Voros,

Thank you for reminding me why I shouldn't discuss Star Wars.

Voros
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3537
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2068 on: December 28, 2017, 02:07:37 PM »
Quote from: Aglondir;1016476
This is not the first time this disparity has happened: Batman v Superman (Crirtics 27, Audience 63). That's a 36 point spread, almost as high as TLJ's 40 point spread (91/51, and falling on both since I last checked two days ago.)

You're on to something with the quoted phrase, which deserves a few days of thought.

There's absolutely nothing new about it, there have always been a 'gap' between critical and popular reception. Critics were underwhelmed by the original SW and many of the huge hits of the 80s (and have been proved right when they praised Empire btw). The Transformer series continues to rake in dough although critics detest it.

Film critics are not worried about that long standing difference anymore than literary critics sweat the sale numbers of the semi-literate Da Vinci Code. Critics are supposed to be looking at films more rigorously than the average person. The assumption that a critic functions solely as some kind of consumer guide is part of the problem, the best critics have never seen their role as just reviewers.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 02:11:10 PM by Voros »

Voros
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3537
The Movie Thread
« Reply #2069 on: December 28, 2017, 02:09:45 PM »
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1016620
Voros,

Thank you for reminding me why I shouldn't discuss Star Wars.

Sorry if I was too harsh, I honestly don't mind people disliking the film but criticizing it because of absurdly nit picking nonsense that has nothing to do with how they function as films is why there has been such a disconnect between 'fandom' reaction and the general audience.