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Author Topic: The Movie Thread Reloaded  (Read 44624 times)

jhkim

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Re: The Movie Thread Reloaded
« Reply #450 on: December 29, 2020, 03:22:37 pm »
I think they also wanted to show Themyscara again.
The problem with superhero movie sequels is that they're past the 'origin story', but there's a lot of backstory that need to be explained for someone new jumping into the series.

Actually, I feel that it's an annoying trend to always have an origin story as the first movie. One of the reasons I liked "Spider-Man: Homecoming" was that it rebooted without trying to do the origin story again. Likewise, while Guardians of the Galaxy has a flashback to pre-origin, it starts with Star-Lord already as superhero-y as he's going to get. Origin stories have their place, but characters don't need to start with their origin story. That's not how it is in most of the comics.

I think needing to start with origin stories was mostly because mainstream audiences weren't used to superheroes, so they need an explanation to handle "How could someone possibly be a superhero?"  But once one accepts that, then we can just start with characters already as superheroes.

Ratman_tf

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Re: The Movie Thread Reloaded
« Reply #451 on: December 29, 2020, 04:45:56 pm »
I think they also wanted to show Themyscara again.
The problem with superhero movie sequels is that they're past the 'origin story', but there's a lot of backstory that need to be explained for someone new jumping into the series.

Actually, I feel that it's an annoying trend to always have an origin story as the first movie. One of the reasons I liked "Spider-Man: Homecoming" was that it rebooted without trying to do the origin story again. Likewise, while Guardians of the Galaxy has a flashback to pre-origin, it starts with Star-Lord already as superhero-y as he's going to get. Origin stories have their place, but characters don't need to start with their origin story. That's not how it is in most of the comics.

I think needing to start with origin stories was mostly because mainstream audiences weren't used to superheroes, so they need an explanation to handle "How could someone possibly be a superhero?"  But once one accepts that, then we can just start with characters already as superheroes.

I think the thing the recent Marvel Cinematic Universe got right is that it brought non-comic fans up to speed on the characters though their origin stories. As a comic fan, I'll roll with the idea of an amazon princess who fights crime, but that's a huge buy in for Joe Movie Goer, and needs some explanation so they can get into the concept.

Once the MCU movies had established a world full of super hero stuff, they could relax the origin stories a bit. It helps that Star Lord is (in the first movie) more a Star Wars type character than a superhero character.

Plus, I think the origin story is the strongest story for these characters. It tends to be personal, simpler and a more coherent story. Once you start adding in comic bizzareness like star gods and invisible jets and time travelling versions of existing characters side-by-side with their current versions, things get a little too bizzare for the average moviegoer.
I think the MCU managed to wrangle comic bizzareness towards the end, but I don't think they could have kept it up for much longer. And now that the Infinity War arc is over, I expect the movies to either back way off and kind of soft-reboot, or flounder and finally fall off the pop culture radar.

(Plus, Robert Downey Junior carried that franchise on his back. With him retiring from being Tony Stark, I think the franchise is going to lose an important keystone that kept the edifice standing.)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 04:47:45 pm by Ratman_tf »
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jhkim

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Re: The Movie Thread Reloaded
« Reply #452 on: December 29, 2020, 06:10:28 pm »
I think the thing the recent Marvel Cinematic Universe got right is that it brought non-comic fans up to speed on the characters though their origin stories. As a comic fan, I'll roll with the idea of an amazon princess who fights crime, but that's a huge buy in for Joe Movie Goer, and needs some explanation so they can get into the concept.

Once the MCU movies had established a world full of super hero stuff, they could relax the origin stories a bit. It helps that Star Lord is (in the first movie) more a Star Wars type character than a superhero character.

Right. Yes, this sounds what I was trying to say. I would add that with so many more mainstream superhero movies in general, this need for an origin story can be relaxed even outside the MCU. That is, after a decade of mainstream superhero movies, Joe Movie Goer is now more accepting of the idea of a crimefighting superhero - and doesn't require as huge a buy-in.


Plus, I think the origin story is the strongest story for these characters. It tends to be personal, simpler and a more coherent story. Once you start adding in comic bizzareness like star gods and invisible jets and time travelling versions of existing characters side-by-side with their current versions, things get a little too bizzare for the average moviegoer.
I think the MCU managed to wrangle comic bizzareness towards the end, but I don't think they could have kept it up for much longer. And now that the Infinity War arc is over, I expect the movies to either back way off and kind of soft-reboot, or flounder and finally fall off the pop culture radar.

It depends on the character, of course, but I often find that the origin story isn't very strong. I feel the origin story formula tends to be very expository - trying to explain all the qualities of the character, instead of just showing them.

A good intro story, I think, is a simple story that shows off the character in their classic action. It shouldn't involve complexities or bizarreness, but rather a clean story about who they are. Like an introduction to Sherlock Holmes doesn't have to focus on his childhood or how he became that way -- it should rather show off Holmes being Holmes.

Ratman_tf

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Re: The Movie Thread Reloaded
« Reply #453 on: December 29, 2020, 06:41:55 pm »
A good intro story, I think, is a simple story that shows off the character in their classic action. It shouldn't involve complexities or bizarreness, but rather a clean story about who they are. Like an introduction to Sherlock Holmes doesn't have to focus on his childhood or how he became that way -- it should rather show off Holmes being Holmes.

Sure, but Sherlock Holmes has a lot less buy-in than a superhero. If Sherlock Holmes dressed up as a wombat and had a belt full of gadgets, there would be a lot more questions compared to him being just a really good detective.

It also doesn't help that IMO the superhero sequel movies, with very few notable exceptions, have been much less entertaining than the first films which tend to feature origin stories. I can't tell if that's because the sequels are bad, or because they're not origin stories though. Still chewing on that one.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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jhkim

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Re: The Movie Thread Reloaded
« Reply #454 on: December 29, 2020, 07:25:19 pm »
A good intro story, I think, is a simple story that shows off the character in their classic action. It shouldn't involve complexities or bizarreness, but rather a clean story about who they are. Like an introduction to Sherlock Holmes doesn't have to focus on his childhood or how he became that way -- it should rather show off Holmes being Holmes.

Sure, but Sherlock Holmes has a lot less buy-in than a superhero. If Sherlock Holmes dressed up as a wombat and had a belt full of gadgets, there would be a lot more questions compared to him being just a really good detective.

It also doesn't help that IMO the superhero sequel movies, with very few notable exceptions, have been much less entertaining than the first films which tend to feature origin stories. I can't tell if that's because the sequels are bad, or because they're not origin stories though. Still chewing on that one.

I think there's a survivors bias here. Movies that suck tend to do poorly in the box office, and not get a sequel produced. So the first movie of a franchise tends to be better, even if the later movies are strictly average.

That said, I'm not convinced that sequels are so frequently inferior - though obviously that is subjective taste. Personally, I thought Superman II was superior to the original; X2 was superior to The X-Men; The Dark Knight was better than Batman Begins; Captain America: The Winter Soldier was superior to The First Avenger; and Ant-Man and the Wasp was superior to Ant-Man. Plus there are some very good non-origin standalones like Black Panther and Spider-Man: Homecoming. There are plenty of bad sequels as well, though, but I think those are enough to make the record mixed.

HappyDaze

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Re: The Movie Thread Reloaded
« Reply #455 on: January 02, 2021, 07:52:57 pm »
Saw Monster Hunter. Amusingly, it shows us how Rifts does SDC/MDC. In the other world, 
the MDC monsters are immune to bullets and even an anti-armor rocket from our (obviously SDC) world, but are vulnerable to swords and arrows from their own world.