Quote from: Persimmon on February 17, 2022, 08:47:05 AM

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 03:29:54 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 16, 2022, 08:03:33 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 15, 2022, 08:11:39 AM

Quote from: Omega on February 15, 2022, 07:29:42 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 11, 2022, 06:27:22 PM
*Gender and race swapping doesn't bother me. The woke mania about race and gender does.

There was a push to make one of the hobbits female for the movie so its nothing new. Hollywoods always doing this. Either swap an existing character, or just insert a new one. Ive seen now at least 3 adaptions of 20000 Leagues that added in a female character or in one case replaced the main narrator with a woman.

Looking at this 'thing' they are making I just come back to the same question as had with the Rocketeer remake.

"Why didn't they just set it forward and have characters be the sons and daughters of the ones from the books?"

But we all know why.

The most they were able to do in Jackson's original trilogy was swap Glorfindel out with Arwen. Which really didn't bug me that much, since Glorfindel is practically in the dictionary under 'throwaway character' and Tolkien kind of strained a bit to justify NOT sending him along with the Fellowship.

It bugged me a bit because shoehorning Arwen into the "stronk womyn" didn't work for me. It didn't help that Liv Tyler has all the acting talent of a turnip.

I think that putting Arwen in that scene was a good choice. It showed her importance as a character in the story - something that Tolkien never properly developed (come on: let's not pretend that everything he did was perfect; Tolkien even admitted that Tom Bombadil could have been cut from the book).

When it was rumbled that Arwen was at the battle of Helm's Deep, however, the reaction was fierce. Interestingly enough, Peter Jackson didn't attack the fans but cut her from the battle (there are stills that show her, blurred, in the background).

To me the real error was to write Eowyn as a "love alternative" for Aragorn. It never worked and it totally missed the real meaning of Eowyn's "love" for Aragorn in the book - something that Tolkien, later, spells very clearly so there can't be doubts about it. And of course Jackson totally fumbled the ball with Faramir. It was the biggest mistake he made in his adaptation.

The Jackson LOTR movies are fine, but I don't think any of the changes he made to the books are an improvement, though I can understand a couple, like compressing the time frame and cutting out Bombadil, as much as I love him.  Even there, it's rather important in that Frodo gets tested in the barrow mound.  And I was really bummed they cut the Scouring of the Shire because that reinforced the transformation of the hobbits into heroes and stewards of the Shire. 

There was zero reason to bring elves to Helm's Deep.  What alliance did the elves have with the Rohirrim?  If he was so desperate to show cool elves in battle just put in a scene of the fighting that was going on in Mirkwood.  Hell, they could have used that to create tension for Legolas.

But at least you can't say Jackson outright spit on the lore, with a couple minor exceptions in The Hobbit films.  And even in those movies, a lot, albeit not all, of the stuff Jackson added (looking at you, interspecies love triangle) had some basis in the writings of Tolkien, if not the actual Hobbit book.

What's funny is that Jackson even lampshades some of those changes. When Frodo and Sam are in Osgiliath, Sam comments, 'I don't think we're supposed to be here.'

Anyway, the show runners just admitted that they don't have the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales, so...



It is worth repeating that again: the show runners behind a billion dollars, multi-season series set in Tolkien's Second Age just admitted that they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/02/16/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-showrunners-admit-they-dont-have-the-rights-to-the-silmarillion-or-unfinished-tales/

All that they have is what it is told about the Second Age in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and the Appendixes.

Their justifications, reported in the link, are a Theatre of the Absurd. Basically, the few things they have rights to are like "stars that they will connect to create the Second Age novel that Tolkien never wrote". Which is Chernobyl-level gaslighting considering that Tolkien... hum... wrote about the Second Age just fine - in the material they don't have the rights to.

Right now I wouldn't want to be a PR person working for Amazon Studio. This whole mess is crumbling faster than even the most pessimist fans ever expected.

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 11:10:56 AM
Anyway, the show runners just admitted that they don't have the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales, so...



It is worth repeating that again: the show runners behind a billion dollars, multi-season series set in Tolkien's Second Age just admitted that they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/02/16/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-showrunners-admit-they-dont-have-the-rights-to-the-silmarillion-or-unfinished-tales/

All that they have is what it is told about the Second Age in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and the Appendixes.

Their justifications, reported in the link, are a Theatre of the Absurd. Basically, the few things they have rights to are like "stars that they will connect to create the Second Age novel that Tolkien never wrote". Which is Chernobyl-level gaslighting considering that Tolkien... hum... wrote about the Second Age just fine - in the material they don't have the rights to.

Right now I wouldn't want to be a PR person working for Amazon Studio. This whole mess is crumbling faster than even the most pessimist fans ever expected.

I saw that. My reaction was pretty much 'You have got to be fucking kidding me.'

Why. WHY. Why the fuck would you not secure the rights to Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion if you're making a tale about the Second Age?

A part of me is wondering if this is some kind of Producers-esque scam being perpetrated.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 17, 2022, 12:00:13 PM
Why. WHY. Why the fuck would you not secure the rights to Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion if you're making a tale about the Second Age?

No opinion on the series, as I haven't seen anything of it. As why, I'm pretty sure that the company had some consultants estimate:

(1) How much profit they expect to make if they paid extra to secure rights to the Silmarillion, and made a series using that,

vs

(2) How much profit they expect to make if they used only their existing LOTR licensed rights,

This would have happened before anyone was assigned to write a script or direct. And I'm pretty sure that their conclusion was that the additional material wouldn't make the company any extra money - because the vast majority of the audience doesn't care.

I'd love to see some big-budget adaptations of the Silmarillion and other material. Unfortunately, it seems like the Tolkien estate is trying to get extra money for the Silmarillion rights.

My worst frustration of this sort was from the film _Selma_, when I found out that they had to *fake* the words that Martin Luther King Jr used in his speeches, because Steven Spielberg had bought the movie rights for his movie. That infuriated me.

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 03:29:54 AM
To me the real error was to write Eowyn as a "love alternative" for Aragorn. It never worked and it totally missed the real meaning of Eowyn's "love" for Aragorn in the book - something that Tolkien, later, spells very clearly so there can't be doubts about it. And of course Jackson totally fumbled the ball with Faramir. It was the biggest mistake he made in his adaptation.

Mmmm. I'm tempted to say that Denethor wasa worse job. In the books, he's a tragic leader who fell to despair, but was strong enough so that it broke his mind and made him do some crazy shit.

In the films, he starts out as an asshole with barely(?) any redeeming qualities who then does some dumb shit and dies by lighting himself on fire and jumping off a tall building. 

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 11:10:56 AM
Anyway, the show runners just admitted that they don't have the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales, so...

I would love to see a stylized, animated version of the 1st Age Silmarillion stories. Like in the format of Fantasia. Maybe an anthology because there's so many stories from that part of the book, the history and lore are linked, but the stories are mostly self-contained bits of that.
The Silmarillion Project is a neat site that planted that idea in my head.

https://silmarillionproject.tumblr.com/image/72447234149

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2022, 01:40:22 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 17, 2022, 12:00:13 PM
Why. WHY. Why the fuck would you not secure the rights to Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion if you're making a tale about the Second Age?

No opinion on the series, as I haven't seen anything of it. As why, I'm pretty sure that the company had some consultants estimate:

(1) How much profit they expect to make if they paid extra to secure rights to the Silmarillion, and made a series using that,

vs

(2) How much profit they expect to make if they used only their existing LOTR licensed rights,

This would have happened before anyone was assigned to write a script or direct. And I'm pretty sure that their conclusion was that the additional material wouldn't make the company any extra money - because the vast majority of the audience doesn't care.

The vast majority of the audience can still smell suckage. When they made up the last two seasons of GoT because they had finished the original material everybody was incredulous by how bad they were (the very actors included it seems). And it was not a matter of "they are making things up" because if there is a thing that GoT proved is how few people actually read books. All the major twists were in the books - starting with the death of Ned Stark - and still they weren't ruined to the average viewers.

"Foundation" is a crime against Isaac Asimov, the basic rules of storytelling and even the attempt at wokeness (with all the race'n'gender'n'age'n'even profession swapped characters who end up firmly in the stupid camp). But you don't need to have read the books to see this: the IMDB comments section is full of people who say "I can't compare the show with the books because I haven't read them, but this show sucks".

These two bozos, in a way, are even in a worse position, because few people have read the LotR but a lot of people have seen the movies. They have the rights to a bunch of ideas and must hope to do better than Tolkien (good luck) or Jackson (who had Tolkien). Because if successful things were written in a certain way you must understand why that way is important before making changes - or you will break the whole narrative mechanism for everybody, fan or no fan.

At the end of the day, when Michael Moorcock decided that he didn't like either Tolkien or Conan, he sat down and wrote Elric. When Ursula K. Le Guin decided that it was time for "diversity and inclusion" she sat down and wrote Earthsea (with a black wizard as the lead) and The Left Hand of Darkness (about a society of "ambisexual" beings). These authors didn't "took back the Mythos from Lovecraft" or some other moronery: they whipped out their typewriters and created the kind of literature they felt being important. And their stories are one hell of a read because they were created from the ground up with their specific poetics in mind - which, obviously, will never be the case in productions like this one.

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 02:35:10 PM


The vast majority of the audience can still smell suckage. When they made up the last two seasons of GoT because they had finished the original material everybody was incredulous by how bad they were (the very actors included it seems). And it was not a matter of "they are making things up" because if there is a thing that GoT proved is how few people actually read books. All the major twists were in the books - starting with the death of Ned Stark - and still they weren't ruined to the average viewers.

"Foundation" is a crime against Isaac Asimov, the basic rules of storytelling and even the attempt at wokeness (with all the race'n'gender'n'age'n'even profession swapped characters who end up firmly in the stupid camp). But you don't need to have read the books to see this: the IMDB comments section is full of people who say "I can't compare the show with the books because I haven't read them, but this show sucks".

These two bozos, in a way, are even in a worse position, because few people have read the LotR but a lot of people have seen the movies. They have the rights to a bunch of ideas and must hope to do better than Tolkien (good luck) or Jackson (who had Tolkien). Because if successful things were written in a certain way you must understand why that way is important before making changes - or you will break the whole narrative mechanism for everybody, fan or no fan.

At the end of the day, when Michael Moorcock decided that he didn't like either Tolkien or Conan, he sat down and wrote Elric. When Ursula K. Le Guin decided that it was time for "diversity and inclusion" she sat down and wrote Earthsea (with a black wizard as the lead) and The Left Hand of Darkness (about a society of "ambisexual" beings). These authors didn't "took back the Mythos from Lovecraft" or some other moronery: they whipped out their typewriters and created the kind of literature they felt being important. And their stories are one hell of a read because they were created from the ground up with their specific poetics in mind - which, obviously, will never be the case in productions like this one.

Indeed. I think the real problem with all this woke bullshit is not that they are woke, but that they are incompetent. Hollyweird has been full of woke before woke was a word. The reason why people put up with their commie pinko bullshit was because they made good TV shows and movies. Now everything they touch turns to shit. I think most of these incompetent buffoons are hiding their incompetence behind woke.

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 02:35:10 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2022, 01:40:22 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 17, 2022, 12:00:13 PM
Why. WHY. Why the fuck would you not secure the rights to Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion if you're making a tale about the Second Age?

No opinion on the series, as I haven't seen anything of it. As why, I'm pretty sure that the company had some consultants estimate:

(1) How much profit they expect to make if they paid extra to secure rights to the Silmarillion, and made a series using that,

vs

(2) How much profit they expect to make if they used only their existing LOTR licensed rights,

This would have happened before anyone was assigned to write a script or direct. And I'm pretty sure that their conclusion was that the additional material wouldn't make the company any extra money - because the vast majority of the audience doesn't care.

The vast majority of the audience can still smell suckage. When they made up the last two seasons of GoT because they had finished the original material everybody was incredulous by how bad they were (the very actors included it seems). And it was not a matter of "they are making things up" because if there is a thing that GoT proved is how few people actually read books. All the major twists were in the books - starting with the death of Ned Stark - and still they weren't ruined to the average viewers.

"Foundation" is a crime against Isaac Asimov, the basic rules of storytelling and even the attempt at wokeness (with all the race'n'gender'n'age'n'even profession swapped characters who end up firmly in the stupid camp). But you don't need to have read the books to see this: the IMDB comments section is full of people who say "I can't compare the show with the books because I haven't read them, but this show sucks".

These two bozos, in a way, are even in a worse position, because few people have read the LotR but a lot of people have seen the movies. They have the rights to a bunch of ideas and must hope to do better than Tolkien (good luck) or Jackson (who had Tolkien). Because if successful things were written in a certain way you must understand why that way is important before making changes - or you will break the whole narrative mechanism for everybody, fan or no fan.

At the end of the day, when Michael Moorcock decided that he didn't like either Tolkien or Conan, he sat down and wrote Elric. When Ursula K. Le Guin decided that it was time for "diversity and inclusion" she sat down and wrote Earthsea (with a black wizard as the lead) and The Left Hand of Darkness (about a society of "ambisexual" beings). These authors didn't "took back the Mythos from Lovecraft" or some other moronery: they whipped out their typewriters and created the kind of literature they felt being important. And their stories are one hell of a read because they were created from the ground up with their specific poetics in mind - which, obviously, will never be the case in productions like this one.

   I think you have summed up the problems with lacking creativity and then trying to create on top of someone with loads of it astoundingly well.  I miss why these people do not just create something that lines up with their "current year" point of view and stop with their sabotage.   I guess there is the fact that it is not that easy, and they are not very talented....

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 17, 2022, 12:00:13 PM
Why. WHY. Why the fuck would you not secure the rights to Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion if you're making a tale about the Second Age?

A part of me is wondering if this is some kind of Producers-esque scam being perpetrated.

Easy. So they can "write the LOTR that Tolkein never did. You know. Woke Trash.

Oh and also so they can make this as cheap as possible and pocket the wokebucks.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 17, 2022, 02:48:47 PM

Quote from: Reckall on February 17, 2022, 02:35:10 PM
At the end of the day, when Michael Moorcock decided that he didn't like either Tolkien or Conan, he sat down and wrote Elric. When Ursula K. Le Guin decided that it was time for "diversity and inclusion" she sat down and wrote Earthsea (with a black wizard as the lead) and The Left Hand of Darkness (about a society of "ambisexual" beings). These authors didn't "took back the Mythos from Lovecraft" or some other moronery: they whipped out their typewriters and created the kind of literature they felt being important. And their stories are one hell of a read because they were created from the ground up with their specific poetics in mind - which, obviously, will never be the case in productions like this one.

Indeed. I think the real problem with all this woke bullshit is not that they are woke, but that they are incompetent. Hollyweird has been full of woke before woke was a word. The reason why people put up with their commie pinko bullshit was because they made good TV shows and movies. Now everything they touch turns to shit. I think most of these incompetent buffoons are hiding their incompetence behind woke.

I'd agree with squirewaldo about incompetence. I think there has always been a ton of terrible movies and television, including bad adaptations from books. Good TV shows have always been rare. For example, Reckall mentions Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea, when this was the TV adaptation of it:



My rule of thumb has always been that a book adaptation is most likely going to suck, even if I liked the book (often *especially* if I liked the book). Wokeness doesn't change that - it just puts a different coat of paint on top.

Quote from: squirewaldo on February 17, 2022, 02:48:47 PM

Indeed. I think the real problem with all this woke bullshit is not that they are woke, but that they are incompetent. Hollyweird has been full of woke before woke was a word. The reason why people put up with their commie pinko bullshit was because they made good TV shows and movies. Now everything they touch turns to shit. I think most of these incompetent buffoons are hiding their incompetence behind woke.

With every iteration of this cult theres been resistance to the SJW insertions, race-swapping and whatever.
People put up with it, to a point. Everyone who isnt a cultist knows why its being done. And the pointlessness, or hatefullness, of it rankles in the background. But they put up with it anyhow on the off chance the movie isnt bad. And then the movie or series IS bad, or at best mediocre.

This is just the first time we've had this practically forced on people at gunpoint. And this 2010 iteration uses fear tactics to try and bully everyone into kowtowing to their demands. Resistance now = Wacist.

As long as marketing keeps backing and pushing this cult hard on media and industry theres likely going to be no relief before the 2030 iteration hits its peak. Not even huge money losses seem to be phasing them this time. Billions are being thrown at this cults agendas.

Before all this started snowballing in the 90s you could more often just account some swap or insertion to marketing telling someone doing so will draw in X viewers which equals $$$. Or just someone adding X because thats what they personally wanted. Right or more often wrong.

Like the very old trend to insert a female character so a love interest plot can be added in because otherwise women wont go see the movie.

At this point nothing is going to stop this until alot of companies lose alot of money. Or better yet. crash and burn as they deserve.

Quote from: jhkim on February 17, 2022, 06:05:57 PM


I'd agree with squirewaldo about incompetence. I think there has always been a ton of terrible movies and television, including bad adaptations from books. Good TV shows have always been rare. For example, Reckall mentions Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea, when this was the TV adaptation of it:



My rule of thumb has always been that a book adaptation is most likely going to suck, even if I liked the book (often *especially* if I liked the book). Wokeness doesn't change that - it just puts a different coat of paint on top.

Ouch! That last one is going to leave a scar. And what a pity. EarthSea was a great set of books.

Quote from: Omega on February 17, 2022, 06:17:45 PM

With every iteration of this cult theres been resistance to the SJW insertions, race-swapping and whatever.
People put up with it, to a point. Everyone who isnt a cultist knows why its being done. And the pointlessness, or hatefullness, of it rankles in the background. But they put up with it anyhow on the off chance the movie isnt bad. And then the movie or series IS bad, or at best mediocre.

This is just the first time we've had this practically forced on people at gunpoint. And this 2010 iteration uses fear tactics to try and bully everyone into kowtowing to their demands. Resistance now = Wacist.

As long as marketing keeps backing and pushing this cult hard on media and industry theres likely going to be no relief before the 2030 iteration hits its peak. Not even huge money losses seem to be phasing them this time. Billions are being thrown at this cults agendas.

Before all this started snowballing in the 90s you could more often just account some swap or insertion to marketing telling someone doing so will draw in X viewers which equals $$$. Or just someone adding X because thats what they personally wanted. Right or more often wrong.

Like the very old trend to insert a female character so a love interest plot can be added in because otherwise women wont go see the movie.

At this point nothing is going to stop this until alot of companies lose alot of money. Or better yet. crash and burn as they deserve.
[/quote]

Well ViacomCBS is going down in flames. Disney is doing a better job of concealing the losses but they are profound. Warner is a trash fire. Sony seems to be the only major studio showing some signs of a survival instinct.

  Might be a bit of a false equivalence to compare a sci fi tv show (some of the movies on that channel have budgets under 100k) with a show that has a budget with damn near 9 zeros.  The first would need uber talent to be good.  The second, just fucking show up and keep your bullshit to yourself.  Big difference.