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Alright consider this a big......


 honking.......


 SPOILER SPACE














Here are three preview clips from YouTube of the upcoming DOCTOR WHO 2  part special "The End Of Time"

First, the Ood meeting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnJ6bfme6JY&feature=fvw

Second, Wilfred's reunion with the Doctor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pR5RnTuUBs&feature=related


Third, Wilf gets a look inside and an invitation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmeF6sdIsjY&feature=related


- Ed C.

I don't have high hopes, although the clips look really good.

the episode made no sense whatsoever

20 times better than the last Master episode.

Quote from: brettmb;35144320 times better than the last Master episode.

I don't honestly know if I can judge. It's either utter genius or utter stupidity. The whole thing was completely gonzo even though not much actually happened. I don't really understand why they've turned the Master into Cole from the InFamous videogame.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;351469I don't honestly know if I can judge. It's either utter genius or utter stupidity. The whole thing was completely gonzo even though not much actually happened. I don't really understand why they've turned the Master into Cole from the InFamous videogame.

The Master has always gone to great lengths to survive, often with new powers, so this isn't really anything unusual.

Sorry, but the S3 finale with the Master was one of the better season finales, certainly better than S4 (though not quite as good as S2).

This one? Well, its very very uneven. My commentaries about it are on today's (Dec 26ths) blog (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/718944181/item/).

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;351490Sorry, but the S3 finale with the Master was one of the better season finales, certainly better than S4 (though not quite as good as S2).

This one? Well, its very very uneven. My commentaries about it are on today's (Dec 26ths) blog (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/718944181/item/).

RPGPundit

I don't get to see it til 9:00pm Ohio time - thats when BBC america is playing it.

It is REALLY nice finally being able to see Doctor Who almost within 24 hours of the time that the U.K. viewers saw it.

Started the thread because I thought some of you would get a kick out of seeing the preview bits.

- Ed C.

Watching it right now , about 27 minutes into it. Commercial on BBC America at the moment.

 MASSIVE (minor) problem or quibble:
Referring to the American President as Obama breaks the fourth wall WAY too much.

Over the past 4 to 5 years they've been pretty good at having fictional U.K. Prime Ministers and American Presidents referred to or shown.  Even tho those fictional parallel leaders have been shown having somewhat similiar policies and attitudes to whoever was currently in office.

Just makes more sense to keep the fictional analog characters thing going.


- Ed C.

That was utterly, utterly, dreadful. The worst dr who story i have ever seen, if not one of the worst peices of television ever. Do yourselves a favour and avoid it.

Wasnt that bad tbh, the regeneration was very dragged out though but i guess since its the last time we'll see those characters again they felt we should give them all a send off aswell, not sure about the way they wrapped up the whole master/timelords thing though but i guess the new guy in charge can always find a way to bring them back if he wants.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;352399Wasnt that bad tbh, the regeneration was very dragged out though but i guess since its the last time we'll see those characters again they felt we should give them all a send off aswell, not sure about the way they wrapped up the whole master/timelords thing though but i guess the new guy in charge can always find a way to bring them back if he wants.

 it was that bad, and worse yet. self indulgent bollocks of the worst kind. insultingly so.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;352398That was utterly, utterly, dreadful. The worst dr who story i have ever seen, if not one of the worst peices of television ever. Do yourselves a favour and avoid it.

This is Russell T. Davies' big send-off for the show, and here are my thoughts on that from a year ago (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=277799&postcount=43).  I'm sorry to learn that it was such a drag for you -- I hope we enjoy it more when we watch it later today.

Last night, at my children's request, we watched one of the Stephen Moffat episodes ("Silence in the Library" and "Forest of the Dead"), which was very satisfying.  I think the show will be left in good hands.

!i!

I am not interested in watching a tv show just to give someone a big send off. That's just total self indulgence. I expected a story, that's not at all what I got.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;352400it was that bad, and worse yet. self indulgent bollocks of the worst kind. insultingly so.

Some of us aren't able to catch a wiewing of it til later tonight(Sat) - when BBC America shows it over here in the states.

Unfortunately, I work the late shift tonight - so I hope the do their usual replay at 12midnight or 1:00am.


...and Ghostie? If you really dislike Doctor Who that much - then don't watch it.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;352648Some of us aren't able to catch a wiewing of it til later tonight(Sat) - when BBC America shows it over here in the states.

Unfortunately, I work the late shift tonight - so I hope the do their usual replay at 12midnight or 1:00am.


...and Ghostie? If you really dislike Doctor Who that much - then don't watch it.


- Ed C.

that doesn't make sense

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;352625I am not interested in watching a tv show just to give someone a big send off. That's just total self indulgence. I expected a story, that's not at all what I got.

Oh, I wasn't defending RTD's grand exeunt at all -- see my linked comments regarding the Series 4 finale.  I really wish that a different writer had been tapped for the 10th Doctor's exit.

We watched it last night, and I thought the episode lacked coherence.  It was a hodge podge of neat ideas that didn't hang together, so no individual idea came off especially well.  The farewell to all of the Companion crowd was over-long and overwrought, but it served one very good purpose -- I think it provided proper closure for all of those characters so that we won't see them cropping up again.  The 11th Doctor will get a relatively clean slate.

Quote from: Koltar;352648...and Ghostie? If you really dislike Doctor Who that much - then don't watch it.

Shut up, Ed.

!i!

Leaving the real events of "The End of Time" aside, indulge me in addressing my impressions of the new, 11th Doctor, played by Matt Smith:

• For all of his youth (he's the youngest actor portraying The Doctor), he's surprisingly...homely.  Really, from the handful of promotional photos I'd seen of him, I expected him to be better looking.  I find this rather refreshing, actually.  I liked the goofy homeliness of Christopher Eccleston's 9th Doctor, and I'm rather glad that they're taking a bit of the glamorous polish off.  Davidson and Tennant were the pretty boys, and we can set all that aside for a while now.
• Smith had a great kooky-old-man cackle that, however briefly we heard it, set him apart from Tennant's manic-brilliant-professor routine.
• The main/navigational room of the TARDIS got blown to poop.  Will we be seeing a redesign in the new series?

I had mixed feelings about seeing Tennant go, but, all in all, I liked the little snippet of Smith that we got to see.  And with Steven Moffat in the driver's seat, I'm looking forward to the series to come.

!i!

I am with you there Ian, wife and I were expecting something a hell of a lot more emo considering the vast bulk of the promotional pictures, but we were pleasantly surprised .. for the same reasons as you have pointed out.

Since Steven Moffat wrote my all time favourite Doctor Who episode, Blink, along side with the terribly awesome tv mini-series, Jekyll, I am hoping that means good things for the new season.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;352715....We watched it last night, and I thought the episode lacked coherence.  It was a hodge podge of neat ideas that didn't hang together, so no individual idea came off especially well.

Absolutely - I'm tired off world-threatening stuff happening like clockwork every Christmas. Considering the Doctor's had his Tardis throughout there's been too much happening on Earth for my liking and the special effects on some of the big set-pieces look crap.

QuoteThe farewell to all of the Companion crowd was over-long and overwrought, but it served one very good purpose -- I think it provided proper closure for all of those characters so that we won't see them cropping up again. !i!

And thank fuck for that. I've really enjoyed some of the episodes since DW returned but as DT's run continued I've been getting increasingly hit and miss about tuning in and even with iPlayer I haven't seen them all.

Quote from: tellius;352771Since Steven Moffat wrote my all time favourite Doctor Who episode, Blink, along side with the terribly awesome tv mini-series, Jekyll, I am hoping that means good things for the new season.

You're right -- Moffat wrote "Blink" as well as "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead", probably my two favorite stories (well, along with "Family of Blood", but that really dates back to the Sylvester years, doesn't it?).  And Moffat wrote "Jekyll", too?  Hot damn!  I didn't know that, but I'd been giving it the cool, appraising eye in the video store for the last month or more.  I have a reason to rent again.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;352773Absolutely - I'm tired off world-threatening stuff happening like clockwork every Christmas. Considering the Doctor's had his Tardis throughout there's been too much happening on Earth for my liking...

No kidding.  It's reached the ridiculous state of "Oh, Godzilla destroyed Tokyo...again?"  I mean, come on.  Surely, given all of Time and Space to work with, he could do a Christmas disaster extravaganza somewhere/when other than London here and now.  Okay, so the 2008 Special was set in Dickensian London*, but you know where I'd like to see one set?  Long, long ago, and far, far away on the planet Kashyyyk as the Wookies celebrate Life Day.  That'd warm my cockles.

!i!

[*And I have some real problems with RTD's writing on that episode, if anyone cares to hear about them.]

Watching part two right now on BBC America.

Rescue down the stairs part was amusing.

Starting to wish Wilf would've been a traveling companion for a whole season.

- Ed C.

Hey, here's a disappointment, and not a spoiler, I promise.

I'd read some time back that we'd be seeing the 8th Doctor, the Paul McGann incarnation, in some kind of flashback sequence in one of the 2009-2010 specials.  Did I blink?  Was he there somewhere and I just missed him?

I know this sounds stupidly sentimental, but I always felt bad about how the 8th Doctor got slighted, and I was looking forward to some way of sort of legitimising him in the new series.  Aside from the Journal of Impossible Things and the brief appearance in the Cybermen's infostamp, of course.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;352813Hey, here's a disappointment, and not a spoiler, I promise.

I'd read some time back that we'd be seeing the 8th Doctor, the Paul McGann incarnation, in some kind of flashback sequence in one of the 2009-2010 specials.  Did I blink?  Was he there somewhere and I just missed him?

I know this sounds stupidly sentimental, but I always felt bad about how the 8th Doctor got slighted, and I was looking forward to some way of sort of legitimising him in the new series.  Aside from the Journal of Impossible Things and the brief appearance in the Cybermen's infostamp, of course.

!i!

I haven't seen him - I always liked Paul McGann and wondered whether we could get a Four or Five Doctors special once the new one is established - possibly instead of a Christmass-y special? The 4th and 5th are looking a bit tubby but Sylvester McCoy would do.

Maybe some sort of creeping menance or a properly developed Gallifrey story.

EDIT: What were your issues with the Victorian cyberspecial out of interest? I remember watching the trailer with my Dad (who's really not a DW fan) and he was actually looking forward to it - he enjoyed watching David Morrissey in other programmes, but he wandered off part-way through.

I do understand that it's a children's show, but to me as though it's losing the 'scare factor'. I remember when The Empty Child was broadcast staff at school were talking about it, not just the kids and simply saying 'Are you my mummy?' got recognition from lots of adults.

Ah well, fingers crossed for the new series.

Paul McGann was in several audio stories for Dr. Who. (Big Finish? BBC Audio?) It's not the tv show, but Dr. Who works rather good in "radio show" format too and Paul McGann has a good voice. Great actor.

oh and jic this hasn't been posted/seen, Dr. Who Series 5 trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tPte4rQMpI

looking good can't wait until the new episodes start. I hope those are Sea Devils, I always like them and the Silurians and FX these days can do much better than rubber suits.

I too like Steven Moffat's work.

Thank You Casey!!

In that preview I think I spotted the Angels from "Blink", Daleks, and possibly Dr. River Song. I really like Dr. Song (and the actress that plays her)

Now that I've seen him in motion - running, jumping, punching people and stuff - the new guy doesn't look so 'young' after all. Not as young-ish as people were complaining about.
 There is something mildly off and weathered about his face - but in a good way.


- Ed C.

The Daleks in the upcoming series look like the old "rebel" gray ones.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;352824What were your issues with the Victorian cyberspecial out of interest?

My real problem with the episode had to do with how it came together at the end.  Morrisey's "Next" Doctor, although not the true Doctor, has been cavorting about London, achieving all manner of impossible (or at least highly improbable) and heroic deeds.  For all intents and purposes, he really is The Doctor.  So, in the scene where he and the 10th Doctor release all the child laborers from their bonds, he discovers his lost son.  This is really his big moment, the point in the episode where he really ought to be the hero he didn't know he was before taking on the role of "The Doctor".  But what happens?  He freezes, and the 10th Doctor, who has plenty of other opportunities to play the hero before the episode is over, swings up like a swashbuckler to save the day, totally upstaging the boy's father.

I'll admit it, the culmination of this episode offended my sensibilities as a father, and I believe it underscored some flawed* notions RTD has about the father-child relationship.  That really was the moment where the father needed to be the hero to his own child, and Davies either didn't understand that, didn't care, or had disdain for the idea.  Not only do I think it would have been appropriate for Morrisey's character to play the hero in that scene, I think it would have had more significant impact on the viewers -- not only is The Doctor a hero himself, but he inspires others to deeds of great heroics.  It was a lost moment, and, worse than that, a badly fumbled one.

!i!

[Edit: Okay, if not flawed, at least found wanting.]

Quote from: Koltar;352857...and possibly Dr. River Song. I really like Dr. Song (and the actress that plays her)

The blonde with the catseye sunglasses at 0:23?  There's a resemblance, but I'm not sure that's Alex Kingston.*  River Song is supposed to be reappearing in the 11th Doctor continuity, though.

From re-watching "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead", I got the distinct impression that her relationship was with the 10th Doctor, somewhere after dropping Donna off and prior to "The Waters of Mars".  Think about it -- without a steady, documented Companion for relative history, there could be decades of adventuring between those events.  Dr. Song definitely seemed to know the 10th Doctor by face, even though he hadn't met her yet.  There are all kinds of continuity issues to be ironed out, I suppose.

!i!

[Edit: Focusing on the distinctive curve of that mouth, I think perhaps that is Alex Kingston.]

Quote from: Ian Absentia;352759Leaving the real events of "The End of Time" aside, indulge me in addressing my impressions of the new, 11th Doctor, played by Matt Smith:

• For all of his youth (he's the youngest actor portraying The Doctor), he's surprisingly...homely.  Really, from the handful of promotional photos I'd seen of him, I expected him to be better looking.  I find this rather refreshing, actually.  I liked the goofy homeliness of Christopher Eccleston's 9th Doctor, and I'm rather glad that they're taking a bit of the glamorous polish off.  Davidson and Tennant were the pretty boys, and we can set all that aside for a while now.
• Smith had a great kooky-old-man cackle that, however briefly we heard it, set him apart from Tennant's manic-brilliant-professor routine.
• The main/navigational room of the TARDIS got blown to poop.  Will we be seeing a redesign in the new series?

!i!

can't judge matt smith on the basis of a short trailer. However he is too young. He may be an amazing actor for all I know (so was tennant, but that didn't save the show from his overwrought personification of the dr), but the dr needs to be older. It's just how his character is.
I had mixed feelings about seeing Tennant go, but, all in all, I liked the little snippet of Smith that we got to see.  And with Steven Moffat in the driver's seat, I'm looking forward to the series to come.

Finished it last night. Ugh. Uuugggh. That was not good. Bring on Moffat!

Seanchai

I hope the next round will be a bit more optimistic and less Earth centered.

Quote from: Aos;353013I hope the next round will be a bit more optimistic and less Earth centered.

If I recall correctly, Moffat wants to do more in Earth's past.

Seanchai

It was interesting and I do like Tennant, but the finale got a bit too depressing at the end.  Of course that did make it a breath of fresh air when the new doctor appeared so maybe that was the plan after all.

On another note, I liked all of the crashed ships on the homeworld but I never realized that the other Time Lords were such tools.  Timothy Dalton in particular (that funky gauntlet of his took too much recharge time BTW).  

I did think it was an interesting contrast between Dalton and the Doctor on the issue of life.  They both knew their time was running out and were trying to avoid their fates, but Dalton and the other Time Lords refused to die and were willing to destroy all life in the Universe to save themselves, while the Doctor could have let one man, Wilf, die to save his life but couldn't make that choice.

I thought that was good writing actually.

So, just finished catching up on my DVR shows, and this was the last bit. Being new-ish to Dr. Who (haven't really watched it prior to the 2005 season), a question:

Are the Time Lords on Gallifrey supposed to be such colossal asses? I kinda got the impression that they weren't such bad folks, just got into a war with forces they couldn't beat, and were sealed off in a pocket dimension or somesuch. Instead, we learn that their leader (at least) fucked with an 8-year-old kid which led to the Master and all his depredations, and also wanted to end the universe so they could live forever... huh. To be honest, in many of the episodes it seems there is a not-so-subtle undercurrent of "Time Lords are asses, even the Doctor not too far below the surface". Makes me wonder if Davies actually even LIKED Dr. Who...

Also, while parts of the last few episodes were kinda hokey (which I get is part of the style of the series), there were several parts where I kinda got misty-eyed. As someone said, maybe here, seems that Davies has a really solid grasp of "moments", not so much on overall arcs.

Quote from: Werekoala;353099So, just finished catching up on my DVR shows, and this was the last bit. Being new-ish to Dr. Who (haven't really watched it prior to the 2005 season), a question:

Are the Time Lords on Gallifrey supposed to be such colossal asses? I kinda got the impression that they weren't such bad folks, just got into a war with forces they couldn't beat, and were sealed off in a pocket dimension or somesuch. Instead, we learn that their leader (at least) fucked with an 8-year-old kid which led to the Master and all his depredations, and also wanted to end the universe so they could live forever... huh. To be honest, in many of the episodes it seems there is a not-so-subtle undercurrent of "Time Lords are asses, even the Doctor not too far below the surface". Makes me wonder if Davies actually even LIKED Dr. Who...

Also, while parts of the last few episodes were kinda hokey (which I get is part of the style of the series), there were several parts where I kinda got misty-eyed. As someone said, maybe here, seems that Davies has a really solid grasp of "moments", not so much on overall arcs.

It seemed to me at least that Davies was deliberately trying to take away the image of the Time Lords as the universal good guys.  I remember one episode from the old series where the Time Lords had to deliberate a long time in order to make the decision to send the Doctor back in time to try to keep the Dalek's from being created.  They only did it after the Daleks terrorized the entire universe.  It was suggested that the Time Lords had self-imposed rules to keep them from meddling too much and that this was a momentus departure from those rules.

As the Doctor said to Wilf during the final episode, he spoke of the Time Lords as benevolent because he wants to remember them that way, but in reality they got changed by the war into something as bad or worse than their enemies.  I suppose that does kind of explain the Doctor's extreme pacifism in some cases, and the hostile reaction he gets from some people when they find out he is a Time Lord.  Personally, good story or not, I actually miss the old Time Lords that weren't colossal asses.

Time Lords didn't turn into universal dicks until this run - like Tennant says, toward the end of the Time War.  Previously, the species contained plenty of individual douchebags, but on the whole, they were remote and aloof...y'know, Time Lords.

If Moffat does more historicals I will be very very pleased.  And if he cranks up the horror factor, as in 'Blink'?  Extremely pleased.

Alex Kingston will indeed be back as River Song during Smith's run - there were production photos involving her recently.

Maybe they can get McGann to step up for a 'two doctors' ep this series?  Give him another shot at some screen time?

It might be fun to see the four most recent guys together. One of things I liked about the old specials was the mutual disdain the versions showed for one another.

"Oh...it's you."

Quote from: Aos;353352One of things I liked about the old specials was the mutual disdain the versions showed for one another.

I imagine, for them, it's like seeing old photographs of yourself from high school, college, etc.  "Shit, I used to wear that?"

"Time Crash", with the meeting of the 5th and 10th Doctors worked pretty well.  While the 10th alternately gushed over and mocked the 5th, the 5th's response to the 10th was "Oh, no!  You're a...fan!"

!i!

Quote from: VectorSigma;353341Time Lords didn't turn into universal dicks until this run - like Tennant says, toward the end of the Time War.  Previously, the species contained plenty of individual douchebags, but on the whole, they were remote and aloof...y'know, Time Lords.

If Moffat does more historicals I will be very very pleased.  And if he cranks up the horror factor, as in 'Blink'?  Extremely pleased.

Alex Kingston will indeed be back as River Song during Smith's run - there were production photos involving her recently.

Maybe they can get McGann to step up for a 'two doctors' ep this series?  Give him another shot at some screen time?

it's not really that the timelords were dicks, it's the way they were utterly hosed. the timelords ffs! A rubbish plot device disposed of even more so. The blatant disregard for the Whoniverse I can live with, but to write such a dire story as a thinly disguised 'hey everyone I'm leaving' is just poor television. Just poor all round. I sincerely hope things improve, although the silly speculation on rpg.net about who the various non entities in that dire story are very amusing. Just goes to further demonstrate Davies' lack of ability to write this kind of tv.

For the record, the Tennant-finale was spectacular, I'm very optimistic about Moffat and Smith (though The Wench, for whom Tennant was her first doctor, definitely isn't), and as to some of the other things discussed here:

- up till now, generally each Davies season had ONE historical earth episode. I wouldn't mind seeing more episodes in earth's past, and more in earth's future or other worlds too.

-The Time Lords were always asses. At their very best, they were totally neutral non-interfering watchers who refused to do good; at best. In most classic-series episodes where we saw them, they were usually breaking their own rules, manipulating the doctor, and often causing secret fuckups they were desperate to cover up or murdering each other for the presidency.

-As far as the Time Lords, Moffat has gone on record that he doesn't like them, and doesn't want them around, so don't expect them in his run.

-As for multiple-doctor stories, Davies had said he hated these, and didn't want them, though clearly he relented for the Time Crash short. Its interesting to note that it was Moffat who wrote Time Crash, so hopefully he has a different opinion on Multiple Doctor stories; and yes, it would be cool to see pretty well any past doctor again (though frankly, it should probably be at least two seasons before they even think of bringing Tennant back to visit, to give Smith time to build up his own value as a character). Eccleston is not a big Who fan, so I don't know if he'd be willing to come back; Mcgann on the other hand is apparently a big Who fan, and would be likely very willing to come back.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;353677For the record, the Tennant-finale was spectacular...

Spectacular?  What kind of non-FDA-approved hinterland herbs and spices have you been smoking in your pipe?

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;353680Spectacular?  What kind of non-FDA-approved hinterland herbs and spices have you been smoking in your pipe?

He calls it My Usual.

Seanchai

Koltar's right about the Obama thing, it didn't work.  That and all the folk in the UK waiting for Obama to make a speech that would save the world?  WTF?

References to Mr President, or The American President, or whatever would have worked just fine.

Koltar, did you enjoy it in the end?  It wasn't me, too much wedged in there, too silly and self-indulgent, but what about you?

Oh, a lot of folk would have liked Wilf as a companion I think.

Balbinus,

 Oh Yes - thought I said in this thread or the other one I really LIKED the finale of Tennants version of the Doctor.

It had nothing to do with politics what I said about the Obama scenes - it just didn't feel right for them to break their own pattern. Wasn't just a breaking of the 4th wall it was very much a WTF? moment or two.

The scenes with the master involved could have been done with a fictional generic President - like they had in earlier seasons. If they wanted to show there had been a change in administration - just cast a black actor to show things went a similiar way in the parallel universe of the Doctor/Torchwood.

All the Wilf stuff I loved.

That actor really livened up things.

Its kind of amusing that to perk things up you gotta cast an 80 year old character actor who has a good sense of humor. (also darn good dramatic chops)

David Tennant did a damn good job, whether you like the writing of Davies or not, Tennent made the Doctor his own over the past 4 years and helpe to re-popularize DOCTOR WHO.


- Ed c.

Quote from: Koltar;353807Balbinus,

 Oh Yes - thought I said in this thread or the other one I really LIKED the finale of Tennants version of the Doctor.

It had nothing to do with politics what I said about the Obama scenes - it just didn't feel right for them to break their own pattern. Wasn't just a breaking of the 4th wall it was very much a WTF? moment or two.

The scenes with the master involved could have been done with a fictional generic President - like they had in earlier seasons. If they wanted to show there had been a change in administration - just cast a black actor to show things went a simniliar way in the parallel universe of the Doctor/Torchwood.

All the Wilf stuff I loved.

That actor really livened up things.

Its kind of amusing that to perk things up you gotta cast an 80 year old character actor who has a good sense of humor. (also darn good dramatic chops)

David Tennant did a damn good job, whether you like the writing of Davies or not, Tennent made the Doctor his own over the past 4 years and helpe to re-popularize DOCTOR WHO.


- Ed c.

I agree with all of this and with Balbinus too.  The Obama thing didn't bother me politically but the thought that the British were sitting there all excited that Obama was going to save the world seemed rather ridiculous and also seemed odd since the whole Obama thing wasn't really necessary to the plot.  I thought it was rather insulting to non-Americans but since the people writing it weren't Americans it was just puzzling.

Speaking of Tennant.  I had a discussion with my brother in law and mentioned that he was in a couple of the Harry Potter movies as one of the villains (the one who morphs into the guy with the wonky magic eye).  He thought I was crazy.  Was I wrong on the that one?

Quote from: Balbinus;353797That and all the folk in the UK waiting for Obama to make a speech that would save the world?  WTF?

That was more than a little WTF for me. I guess the author was trying to make some political point, but I don't really know what the hell it was. That Britain was too dependent on an American savior? That Obama was a savior? That he'd failed to be one?

Quote from: Balbinus;353797It wasn't me, too much wedged in there, too silly and self-indulgent...

I thought the whole thing was silly and self-indulgent. I honestly wonder if he wasn't trying to torpedo the franchise. There were moments I enjoyed, but on the whole...

Seanchai

I never understand why he used a President Elect in the Sound of Drums (was that it?). He has no power until sworn in and the whole thing was pointless. Obama (who clearly didn't even look like him) was another pointless thing. Doctor Who has always been about Britain when it came to UNIT and end of the world. It doesn't need to go further - just mention that the world was affected and focus on the point. I mean if he's become everyone on Earth, clearly has become the President as well. I'm glad Davies is gone. It's like keeping a TV program on after it's prime.

Quote from: RPGPundit;353677For the record, the Tennant-finale was spectacular, I'm very optimistic about Moffat and Smith (though The Wench, for whom Tennant was her first doctor, definitely isn't), and as to some of the other things discussed here:

- up till now, generally each Davies season had ONE historical earth episode. I wouldn't mind seeing more episodes in earth's past, and more in earth's future or other worlds too.

-The Time Lords were always asses. At their very best, they were totally neutral non-interfering watchers who refused to do good; at best. In most classic-series episodes where we saw them, they were usually breaking their own rules, manipulating the doctor, and often causing secret fuckups they were desperate to cover up or murdering each other for the presidency.

-As far as the Time Lords, Moffat has gone on record that he doesn't like them, and doesn't want them around, so don't expect them in his run.

-As for multiple-doctor stories, Davies had said he hated these, and didn't want them, though clearly he relented for the Time Crash short. Its interesting to note that it was Moffat who wrote Time Crash, so hopefully he has a different opinion on Multiple Doctor stories; and yes, it would be cool to see pretty well any past doctor again (though frankly, it should probably be at least two seasons before they even think of bringing Tennant back to visit, to give Smith time to build up his own value as a character). Eccleston is not a big Who fan, so I don't know if he'd be willing to come back; Mcgann on the other hand is apparently a big Who fan, and would be likely very willing to come back.

RPGPundit

It was spectacularly bad.

I enjoyed it much more than the previous years' finales.

Quote from: Balbinus;353797Koltar's right about the Obama thing...

Hush.  You're just encouraging him.  But, yeah, that bit sucked.

QuoteThat and all the folk in the UK waiting for Obama to make a speech that would save the world?

You mean you're not?

!i!

Quote from: brettmb;353839I never understand why he used a President Elect in the Sound of Drums (was that it?).

At the time I presumed that the writer didn't know what a President-Elect was, and probably meant something like 'duly-elected President' for the line.  I have no idea.

It's pretty stupid.

Then again, they also had the faux-American newscaster mispronounce 'Barack'.

Quote from: VectorSigma;353901Then again, they also had the faux-American newscaster mispronounce 'Barack'.

Am i right? Is an american complaining about the mispronunciation of words?

:D

Quote from: Koltar;353807Balbinus,

 Oh Yes - thought I said in this thread or the other one I really LIKED the finale of Tennants version of the Doctor.

It had nothing to do with politics what I said about the Obama scenes - it just didn't feel right for them to break their own pattern. Wasn't just a breaking of the 4th wall it was very much a WTF? moment or two.

The scenes with the master involved could have been done with a fictional generic President - like they had in earlier seasons. If they wanted to show there had been a change in administration - just cast a black actor to show things went a similiar way in the parallel universe of the Doctor/Torchwood.

All the Wilf stuff I loved.

That actor really livened up things.

Its kind of amusing that to perk things up you gotta cast an 80 year old character actor who has a good sense of humor. (also darn good dramatic chops)

David Tennant did a damn good job, whether you like the writing of Davies or not, Tennent made the Doctor his own over the past 4 years and helpe to re-popularize DOCTOR WHO.


- Ed c.

I know I've accused you of being political in the past (and probably will again), I didn't think this was one of those occasions.  I agree with all your comments on the Obama thing in fact (for the record, I'm not actually an Obama supporter as such, I wanted Hilary to win).  

Wilf was played by Bernad Cribbin, he's a well known actor in the UK, very solid.

David Tennant was indeed excellent, though I have high hopes for the new kid.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed it.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;353885Hush.  You're just encouraging him.  But, yeah, that bit sucked.

But he's right on this occasion!  I never agree with K about anything even tangentially linked to politics, it's important to seize the moment.

I would've had the same issue if the STARGATE SG-1 series had done something similiar. STARGATE had a record of fictional Vice Presidents and Presidents played by actors Ronny Cox and William Devane.

 If a show has a history of fictional national leaders , then suddenly breaks that by using the actual current office holder - then yeah that becomes a huge speed bump while trying to enjoy the show.


Be great to see Cribbens show up with the newer Doctor at some point.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;354092If a show has a history of fictional national leaders , then suddenly breaks that by using the actual current office holder - then yeah that becomes a huge speed bump while trying to enjoy the show.

I won't disagree with this.  The whole "Obama's going to make a speech to fix THE economy" thing was just weird and incongruous with previous depictions of or references to "The President".

QuoteBe great to see Cribbens show up with the newer Doctor at some point.

As I suggested earlier in the thread, I think they spent a lot of time and effort buttoning up the 10th Doctor's companions.  I think they're going to let sleeping dogs lie, and so it should be.  It'd be a drag to keep pulling Davies' legacy back into the new cycle.

!i!

Has the Doctor had male companions before? I think I vaugely remember something like that, but again, I never really watched the old series - I just know that for the most part they're there to provide a bit 'o skirt as it were (nudge, nudge). I think Wilf would have made one HELL of a good one, though, even though he's a bit slow. He clearly had all the right ingredients - brains, common sense, courage, life experience (a huge bonus over some 20-something dolly) and even a bit of wit.

Quote from: Werekoala;354112Has the Doctor had male companions before? I think I vaugely remember something like that, but again, I never really watched the old series...

A handful, including one from right at the start:  Ian Chesterton, Jamie McCrimmon, Turlough, Adric, one or two others who aren't leaping to mind.  Male companions tend to take a bit of a verbal and emotional beating at the hands of The Doctor.

!i!

The lesser known: Harry Sullivan, Ben Jackson, and Steven Taylor.

Quote from: Werekoala;354112Has the Doctor had male companions before? I think I vaugely remember something like that, but again, I never really watched the old series - I just know that for the most part they're there to provide a bit 'o skirt as it were (nudge, nudge). I think Wilf would have made one HELL of a good one, though, even though he's a bit slow. He clearly had all the right ingredients - brains, common sense, courage, life experience (a huge bonus over some 20-something dolly) and even a bit of wit.

He has had male companions, but far fewer than female companions and never ONLY male companions for any meaningful length of time (ie. more than the time between the end of episode A when Female Comapanion 1 leaves and the beginning of Episode B when Female Companion 2 joins up).

RPGPundit

Of all those noted, only Ian and Jamie were worth anything.

In the new series, you can add Captain Jack, who is awesome, and Mickey as well.

And technically not a companion in the conventional sense, but the Brigadier (along with Benton and Yates), who is the very definition of AWESOME (as in "I'm so awesome I would kick the also-awesome Captain Jack's ass").

Anyways, on the whole female companions are preferred. They had male companions throughout pretty much the entirety of the First and Second Doctors, however, where the formula was pretty much Doctor=Brains, Male Companion= Action!, and Female Companion(s)=giving the Doc a chance to show off his brains and the Male Companion a chance to show off his action, plus being "something for the dads".  
But Pertwee essentially changed that, as the Third Doctor became both "Brains" and "Action!" rolled into one. The action-oriented male companion would have been pretty much useless when the Doctor is running around all over the place, using Venusian Karate, flying helicopters, having car chase scenes, fencing, etc etc.

RPGPundit

Zoe (second doctor) actually out thinks the doctor on a number of occasions, and Jamie (also second doctor) was more belligerent than he was dangerous.
And, I liked Harry just fine.  
Earthshock, the episode wherein Adric gets snuffed is a favorite of mine- if only because of said snuffing.

Quote from: Aos;354137Zoe (second doctor) actually out thinks the doctor on a number of occasions, and Jamie (also second doctor) was more belligerent than he was dangerous.
And, I liked Harry just fine.  
Earthshock, the episode wherein Adric gets snuffed is a favorite of mine- if only because of said snuffing.

I think everyone likes that about Earthshock. Adric has to be one of the least-liked Companions of all time.

And yes, with Zoe they really started (at least for the first time since Barbara) to present female companions that were of a certain intellectual caliber. They followed that up with Liz Shaw, then took a detour into ditzy-land with Jo, but brought it back in a refreshing way with Sarah Jane.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;354208I think everyone likes that about Earthshock. Adric has to be one of the least-liked Companions of all time.

The sad thing is that "Earthshock" is the storyline where they finally let him stand up for himself.  Only then did they off him.  Maybe the actor got tired of being The Doctor's whipping boy. :)

!i!

Actually, I liked Jo because you could see her develop through her time in the series.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;354212The sad thing is that "Earthshock" is the storyline where they finally let him stand up for himself.  Only then did they off him.  Maybe the actor got tired of being The Doctor's whipping boy. :)

!i!

I don't think he was ever the doctor's whipping boy. He was a mathematical genius the equal of the doctor at least and as such a good role model for kids who valued intelligence at the time. Expecting him to be an action hero is unreasonable.

A good role model except for being an insufferable little twat.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;354275I don't think he was ever the doctor's whipping boy.

So why was The Doctor apologising for harshing Adric's buzz and agreeing to finally cut him some slack in that episode?

QuoteHe was a mathematical genius the equal of the doctor at least and as such a good role model for kids who valued intelligence at the time.

Yeah, a good role model to prepare them for the kind of abuse they'll face at the hands of classmates and middle management.  :p

I kid, though.  I think I actually sniffled a little when Adric took it upon himself to meet his maker.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;352878My real problem with the episode had to do with how it came together at the end.  Morrisey's "Next" Doctor, although not the true Doctor, has been cavorting about London, achieving all manner of impossible (or at least highly improbable) and heroic deeds.  For all intents and purposes, he really is The Doctor.  So, in the scene where he and the 10th Doctor release all the child laborers from their bonds, he discovers his lost son.  This is really his big moment, the point in the episode where he really ought to be the hero he didn't know he was before taking on the role of "The Doctor".  But what happens?  He freezes, and the 10th Doctor, who has plenty of other opportunities to play the hero before the episode is over, swings up like a swashbuckler to save the day, totally upstaging the boy's father.

I'll admit it, the culmination of this episode offended my sensibilities as a father, and I believe it underscored some flawed* notions RTD has about the father-child relationship.  That really was the moment where the father needed to be the hero to his own child, and Davies either didn't understand that, didn't care, or had disdain for the idea.  Not only do I think it would have been appropriate for Morrisey's character to play the hero in that scene, I think it would have had more significant impact on the viewers -- not only is The Doctor a hero himself, but he inspires others to deeds of great heroics.  It was a lost moment, and, worse than that, a badly fumbled one.

!i!

[Edit: Okay, if not flawed, at least found wanting.]

Ooops, missed this one Ian. I *think* I remember that bit and take your point. I admit to losing interest when it became apparent that we weren't looking at a successor, which I think would have been an interesting twist on the multiple doctor specials format.

Anyway, rather than trudge through it again on Youtube I decided to watch Resurrection of the Daleks on there instead and be reminded why Dr Who used to frighten me.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;353978Am i right? Is an american complaining about the mispronunciation of words?

Yep, absolutely. :)  We had a great time at work last week trying to teach the Brit how we pronounce 'oregano'.

...and in further Doctor related things, I came across this yesterday (and spent most of the morning reading the "10 Doctors," story; good stuff that).

http://comics.shipsinker.com/ (http://comics.shipsinker.com/)

I just watched it last night.

Some good parts, some cool ideas, some great acting, but there's something I was starting to dislike about the structure of the new Doctor Who adventures compared to the old ones. They're so... bombastic. I'm sort of glad they're switching up the writers even though I'm sorry to see David Tennant go. It'd be nice if they'd have some less over-the-top shows in the new season.

Interestingly i just watched Mawdryn Undead again on youtube where the dr confirms that he only has 12 regenerations in total.

One more to go. :D

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;355794Interestingly i just watched Mawdryn Undead again on youtube where the dr confirms that he only has 12 regenerations in total.

One more to go. :D

Unless there's an overflow from the handwavium chamber in the TARDIS and it resets his dodecabios patterns. ;-)

I really want to get all the Tom baker and Peter Davidson stuff, but the dvd's are ridiculously overpriced. One single story for £20 in the shops!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;355794One more to go. :D

Counter-evidence:  I give you...The Master. Hell, he's so fab, they kept the same actor. :rolleyes:

!i!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;355799I really want to get all the Tom baker and Peter Davidson stuff, but the dvd's are ridiculously overpriced. One single story for £20 in the shops!

In the states you can watch a lot of it streaming on netflix. Most of the new stuff is available that way too. My wife and i have been rewatching the 9th doctor over the last couple of days.
And I don't believe for a minute that they will stop at 13 if the show is doing well; they'll just come up with some nonsense to keep it going, which is just fine with me. And if the show is tanking, and they do stop at 13, they'll reboot it later and explain it away.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;355794Interestingly i just watched Mawdryn Undead again on youtube where the dr confirms that he only has 12 regenerations in total.

One more to go. :D

Without the Time Lords, you can argue that their own imposed-limit is gone, so The Doctor now has unlimited regenerations.

I don't know if this was mentioned here already or not, but Moffat has gone on record at the very least, as not giving a flying fuck about the "regeneration limit".  Which, if he's still in charge when that moment comes, would no doubt cue massive nerd-rage on the Doctor Who forums.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Aos;355870In the states you can watch a lot of it streaming on netflix. Most of the new stuff is available that way too. My wife and i have been rewatching the 9th doctor over the last couple of days.
And I don't believe for a minute that they will stop at 13 if the show is doing well; they'll just come up with some nonsense to keep it going, which is just fine with me. And if the show is tanking, and they do stop at 13, they'll reboot it later and explain it away.

I'm not interested in the new stuff. I want the classics and i'll download them if i have to. really it's ridiculous they haven't used technology to archive classic tv shows for people to watch.

Quote from: Aos;355870And if the show is tanking, and they do stop at 13, they'll reboot it later and explain it away.

They could wipe the slate clean and start all over at the 1st Doctor.  Ever see the last episode of Land of the Lost?  With time travel, the End is simply witness to the Beginning.

Anyway, as Pundy suggests, going beyond the 13th Doctor is going to create a huge upheaval in the fan community anyway, so the potential producers are essentially free to do whatever they want.

!i!