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Author Topic: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)  (Read 9207 times)

oggsmash

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #135 on: February 15, 2022, 09:08:00 AM »
  Alot of Jedi rules seem to get changed and ignored and re ruled on and exceptions made, etc all the time. Jedi rules are like tax codes.  Use on people you dont like, and ignore em for people you do like.  People turn to the darkside because jedi are up tight assholes who seem to want to hang around kids a little too much.

Sith aren't much better.  ;D



I agree. The "rules" didn't seem very well thought out going into the prequels. I never did like the "too old to begin the training" to be more than a half-hearted excuse by Yoda as he was giving in to training Luke. It's like Lucas caught Tarkin Disease somewhere along the way.

  Sith rules seem pretty much do what you want though.  I always felt their preferences ran to teens, seems using the hot emotions of puberty was the best time to turn them after a nice grooming process.  I am beginning to wonder what Star wars is really about.

oggsmash

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #136 on: February 15, 2022, 09:25:31 AM »
  Despite my derailing posts, I hope the next outing for Star wars media is to the fans liking.  Are there any plans regarding another movie?

tenbones

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #137 on: February 15, 2022, 10:41:45 AM »
We already have one canon and one semi-canon examples of Jedi leaving the order and seeming to not have any restrictions placed on them. Count Dooku and Ahsoka Tano.

That's different since both of those characters actually passed the training. The danger for the Jedi is they believe their training sufficiently guards their followers from falling to the Dark Side. History is obviously ridiculously rife with contradictions to that belief - which is why I think both the Sith and Jedi got it wrong.

I'm not talking about "Grey Jedi", which I think is dumb as a title, I'm talking about the philosophical underpinnings of what the Jedi and Sith both espouse as the focal points of their respective orders in regards to the Force.

Where the Jedi espouse "non-attachment" in order to not color their connection to the Force is merely a dam against the real issue - emotional irrationality being confused with all emotion, as the path to the Dark Side. Clearly the mere existence of the Sith which focuses on passion being the fuel to wield the Force, shows this to be untrue. Somewhere in the middle are EU examples where there is a medium that denies both paths.

In both cases among the Sith and Jedi, those orders have crushed those outliers. The Sith consider it a heresy to cultivate passion using positive emotions, but there is no such mandate that it's not possible. In the Old Republic there are a couple of Sith that discovered this - effectively they were Sith that were Light Side.

And of course there is Darth Revan - someone that tempered the teachings of the Sith with the discipline of the Jedi - but instead of non-attachment his passions were disciplined and enabled him to act instead of react. All of this can be encapsulated in understanding Darth Kreia's philosophy from Knights of the Old Republic which gives tremendous nuance to all of this, and clearly defines Sith and Jedi philosophical goals and flaws (and why they both inevitably fail).

There's a couple of really good videos that outline all of this. I highly recommend this as a watch
https://youtu.be/-Z0S0Z8lUTg


tenbones

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #138 on: February 15, 2022, 11:09:11 AM »
Plus Luke, who was already a full grown ass adult when he became a Jedi and never even joined the Order, yet he's kicking people out for not following strict training protocols he never followed either and weren't even established into canon till the prequels. I always thought a lot of the Jedi and Sith rules that got practically retconned into existence were kinda silly, extreme and unworkable. Kicking out someone who's Force sensitive for having attachments is practically a guarantee they'll turn to the Dark Side eventually, which makes it a counterproductive rule.

This is all true. But the issue comes to the reality that if you don't have a philosophical underpinning then there is no difference between Sith or Jedi other than a name. When clearly there is some kind of difference that manifestly has shown even in the OT that the philosophy itself produces very specific effects as a result of those practices.

I'm not convinced that the retcons are not warranted as much as since Empire Strikes Back, where Yoda starts training Luke, he clearly explains to him how the Jedi *and* the Sith interact with the Force in order to use it. How accurate he was is probably reasonable to accept from the Jedi side... from the Sith side? Well that's where your "retcons" come in. I see them as less of a retcon than an obvious reflection to the philosophical traditions that Lucas was directly pulling from, directly or indirectly.

Sith philosophy is very much a Nietzschean construct - while Jedi philosophy is pulling deeply from Buddhist philosophy. The difference being the (over)emphasis of denial of attachment that the Jedi practice overtly (which is not really what Buddhism demands), whereas the Sith over emphasize the *easiest* passions to form their philosophy around - fear, anger, hatred. The natural outcome is precisely the horror-show of the old Sith Empire.

There is a clear gap in those philosophies that exists purely as an observation regardless whether we agree with whatever came out of the EU about it. The moment that Yoda defines the path to the Dark Side... the inevitable question is "why"? Most of these answers I believe are sufficiently answered in real-world philosophy, thought outside of the Old Republic material, most of those answers in the modern EU have been spotty at best.

The Old Republic material dives deep into it. And does a very respectful job of not only defining these differences, it reinforces the very concepts Lucas alludes to in both the OT and Prequel trilogies. Oddly the Prequel movies even acknowledges that Compassion unconditionally, is a tool of the Jedi - while there is *no* injunction for Sith to do the same.

But consider how hard that is to do for the untrained plebs, even in the real world. Then consider children capable of telekinetically throwing an mudhorn without that discipline...

VisionStorm

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #139 on: February 15, 2022, 06:37:44 PM »
Sith philosophy is very much a Nietzschean construct - while Jedi philosophy is pulling deeply from Buddhist philosophy. The difference being the (over)emphasis of denial of attachment that the Jedi practice overtly (which is not really what Buddhism demands), whereas the Sith over emphasize the *easiest* passions to form their philosophy around - fear, anger, hatred. The natural outcome is precisely the horror-show of the old Sith Empire.

This is one of the things that bugs me about the way that Jedi philosophy is portrayed. I know that they're trying to make it kinda sorta like Eastern religious philosophy, but in Eastern religions (particularly Buddhism and other Dharmic religions) avoiding worldly attachments and such has more to do with trying to transcend desire and identification with the ego because those things create karmic bonds that drag you back into the cycle of reincarnation, when the focus of those religions is the break the cycle of rebirth in order to achieve unification with the infinite/universe/God (essentially the Force in SW parlance) and liberation from Samsara (the world/cycle of rebirth). But the emphasis is not avoiding any and all attachments per se, but trying to transcend desire and things that bind us to the world and keep us locked in the karmic rebirth cycle.

Plus there's also some element of monks IRL (across basically all religions that have them, even Christian) removing themselves from the world in order to dedicate their lives to quiet religious contemplation--BECAUSE THEY'RE FREAKING MONKS!

But in Jedi philosophy they generalize that into some arbitrary need for "no attachments, no emotion, etc." because...reasons, that makes almost no philosophical sense and is very surface level kinda sorta Eastern philosophy, but not quite, because its arbitrary and completely removed from that context. Then it creates all these logical issues with how that philosophy works in the story, and the pitfalls it generates trying to work around those arbitrary strictures Jedi are expected to follow.

tenbones

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #140 on: February 15, 2022, 10:54:48 PM »
Sith philosophy is very much a Nietzschean construct - while Jedi philosophy is pulling deeply from Buddhist philosophy. The difference being the (over)emphasis of denial of attachment that the Jedi practice overtly (which is not really what Buddhism demands), whereas the Sith over emphasize the *easiest* passions to form their philosophy around - fear, anger, hatred. The natural outcome is precisely the horror-show of the old Sith Empire.

This is one of the things that bugs me about the way that Jedi philosophy is portrayed. I know that they're trying to make it kinda sorta like Eastern religious philosophy, but in Eastern religions (particularly Buddhism and other Dharmic religions) avoiding worldly attachments and such has more to do with trying to transcend desire and identification with the ego because those things create karmic bonds that drag you back into the cycle of reincarnation, when the focus of those religions is the break the cycle of rebirth in order to achieve unification with the infinite/universe/God (essentially the Force in SW parlance) and liberation from Samsara (the world/cycle of rebirth). But the emphasis is not avoiding any and all attachments per se, but trying to transcend desire and things that bind us to the world and keep us locked in the karmic rebirth cycle.

Plus there's also some element of monks IRL (across basically all religions that have them, even Christian) removing themselves from the world in order to dedicate their lives to quiet religious contemplation--BECAUSE THEY'RE FREAKING MONKS!

But in Jedi philosophy they generalize that into some arbitrary need for "no attachments, no emotion, etc." because...reasons, that makes almost no philosophical sense and is very surface level kinda sorta Eastern philosophy, but not quite, because its arbitrary and completely removed from that context. Then it creates all these logical issues with how that philosophy works in the story, and the pitfalls it generates trying to work around those arbitrary strictures Jedi are expected to follow.

Take this with a grain of salt. The difference between Non-attachment in the Jedi-sense vs. the Buddhist sense is distinct in only *one* fashion - the Force is real in Star Wars.

As someone that has been practicing Zen meditation for 35+ years, it's a difficult thing to discuss with those that might not have much experience in contemplative practice (this may or may not include you). But I liken it to the Monkey-Mind that everyone has bouncing around in their heads moment-to-moment. The analogy is by direct experience is you (or anyone reading this) to quiet that mind down. To have no thought, any thought that arises is allowed to evaporate in the moment of awareness. It's a state that has to be practiced and cultivated - and for western minds in particular, its very difficult. The entirety of Buddhist practice centers around the disciplines that reinforce and train this awareness.

If you were to simply attach all the magical abilities of the Jedi to being able to be in that state, (non-dual consciousness where there is no difference between subject/object) that is the exact "flowery" description Yoda gives about "feeling the Force". It's not an emotion - it's a state. If that state has to be maintained, this is akin to Buddhist practice of constant experience of Satori (pardon my vernacular if you use a different one). Non-Buddhists would simply call it a "Flow-state."

Consider how difficult that is. The axis of one's functional resevoir of "connectedness" to the Force is the other issue. There are those that are inherently "strong" in the Force. This, to me, doesn't mean they can hit that Flow-State easier, it means that when the Force is active - whether by non-dual state or extreme emotional passion, the individual's connection might be that much stronger/weaker. You see this with the Skywalker family throughout the movies and other badass Jedi/Sith. (Their midichorian count is high! LOL ugh I velched a little when I said the M-word.)

Conversely the Sith cultivate their connection through their emotional state. Having strong emotional states is a very human instinct. The idea is that the method of the Force utilization begets itself to the lowest common denominator. The difficulty of maintain a non-dual state that the Jedi aspire to is more difficult, but "more powerful" as Yoda says. Whereas the Emotion-fueled Sith method is easy, especially if you cultivate a philosophy and society bent on Fear and Anger as well as other negative emotions that self-reinforce through the Force itself.

So you can see how these things explain themselves even if only using the OT trilogy whose roots were grounded in real-world ideas, but didn't try or need to get too technical about explaining them. That's part of the appeal. To those philosophy nerds like me, it still fits (minus the Midichlorians). The guys at BioWare understood this too when they made KotOR/SWToR because the entirety of their exploration of the Force in the game hinges on the distinctions not just between Jedi and Sith and their connection to the Force, but between the philosophies  that define and constrain them.

TL/DR - Grogu is doomed because he's opened the spigot to the Force without learning any self-discipline about not letting his feelings rule him. It's our inherent animal nature that makes that happen - and it will be his too which will fuel his Force use and slide him inevitably to the Dark Side.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 10:56:29 PM by tenbones »

Ratman_tf

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2022, 02:38:08 AM »
TL/DR - Grogu is doomed because he's opened the spigot to the Force without learning any self-discipline about not letting his feelings rule him. It's our inherent animal nature that makes that happen - and it will be his too which will fuel his Force use and slide him inevitably to the Dark Side.

I don't think it's inevitable. Just common enough for the Jedi to put rules in place to attempt to prevent their members from falling to the Dark Side.
A person could, theoretically, never encounter a situation where they are tempted to use the Force in an emotionally selfish way. Or perhaps they gain enough wisdom and perspective outside the Jedi teachings*, to resist the temptation.
It's the latter that may save Grogu, because the path of a Mandalorian, I expect, is going to be full of temptations.

*This is my bugaboo about "grey Jedi" thought. I think it's actually easier to tempt someone who thinks they've managed to find that "balance" outside the Jedi/Sith methods. It's a level of self-awareness that few people would actually manage to achieve.
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VisionStorm

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #142 on: February 17, 2022, 06:45:33 AM »
Sith philosophy is very much a Nietzschean construct - while Jedi philosophy is pulling deeply from Buddhist philosophy. The difference being the (over)emphasis of denial of attachment that the Jedi practice overtly (which is not really what Buddhism demands), whereas the Sith over emphasize the *easiest* passions to form their philosophy around - fear, anger, hatred. The natural outcome is precisely the horror-show of the old Sith Empire.

This is one of the things that bugs me about the way that Jedi philosophy is portrayed. I know that they're trying to make it kinda sorta like Eastern religious philosophy, but in Eastern religions (particularly Buddhism and other Dharmic religions) avoiding worldly attachments and such has more to do with trying to transcend desire and identification with the ego because those things create karmic bonds that drag you back into the cycle of reincarnation, when the focus of those religions is the break the cycle of rebirth in order to achieve unification with the infinite/universe/God (essentially the Force in SW parlance) and liberation from Samsara (the world/cycle of rebirth). But the emphasis is not avoiding any and all attachments per se, but trying to transcend desire and things that bind us to the world and keep us locked in the karmic rebirth cycle.

Plus there's also some element of monks IRL (across basically all religions that have them, even Christian) removing themselves from the world in order to dedicate their lives to quiet religious contemplation--BECAUSE THEY'RE FREAKING MONKS!

But in Jedi philosophy they generalize that into some arbitrary need for "no attachments, no emotion, etc." because...reasons, that makes almost no philosophical sense and is very surface level kinda sorta Eastern philosophy, but not quite, because its arbitrary and completely removed from that context. Then it creates all these logical issues with how that philosophy works in the story, and the pitfalls it generates trying to work around those arbitrary strictures Jedi are expected to follow.

Take this with a grain of salt. The difference between Non-attachment in the Jedi-sense vs. the Buddhist sense is distinct in only *one* fashion - the Force is real in Star Wars.

As someone that has been practicing Zen meditation for 35+ years, it's a difficult thing to discuss with those that might not have much experience in contemplative practice (this may or may not include you). But I liken it to the Monkey-Mind that everyone has bouncing around in their heads moment-to-moment. The analogy is by direct experience is you (or anyone reading this) to quiet that mind down. To have no thought, any thought that arises is allowed to evaporate in the moment of awareness. It's a state that has to be practiced and cultivated - and for western minds in particular, its very difficult. The entirety of Buddhist practice centers around the disciplines that reinforce and train this awareness.

If you were to simply attach all the magical abilities of the Jedi to being able to be in that state, (non-dual consciousness where there is no difference between subject/object) that is the exact "flowery" description Yoda gives about "feeling the Force". It's not an emotion - it's a state. If that state has to be maintained, this is akin to Buddhist practice of constant experience of Satori (pardon my vernacular if you use a different one). Non-Buddhists would simply call it a "Flow-state."

Consider how difficult that is. The axis of one's functional resevoir of "connectedness" to the Force is the other issue. There are those that are inherently "strong" in the Force. This, to me, doesn't mean they can hit that Flow-State easier, it means that when the Force is active - whether by non-dual state or extreme emotional passion, the individual's connection might be that much stronger/weaker. You see this with the Skywalker family throughout the movies and other badass Jedi/Sith. (Their midichorian count is high! LOL ugh I velched a little when I said the M-word.)

Conversely the Sith cultivate their connection through their emotional state. Having strong emotional states is a very human instinct. The idea is that the method of the Force utilization begets itself to the lowest common denominator. The difficulty of maintain a non-dual state that the Jedi aspire to is more difficult, but "more powerful" as Yoda says. Whereas the Emotion-fueled Sith method is easy, especially if you cultivate a philosophy and society bent on Fear and Anger as well as other negative emotions that self-reinforce through the Force itself.

So you can see how these things explain themselves even if only using the OT trilogy whose roots were grounded in real-world ideas, but didn't try or need to get too technical about explaining them. That's part of the appeal. To those philosophy nerds like me, it still fits (minus the Midichlorians). The guys at BioWare understood this too when they made KotOR/SWToR because the entirety of their exploration of the Force in the game hinges on the distinctions not just between Jedi and Sith and their connection to the Force, but between the philosophies  that define and constrain them.

TL/DR - Grogu is doomed because he's opened the spigot to the Force without learning any self-discipline about not letting his feelings rule him. It's our inherent animal nature that makes that happen - and it will be his too which will fuel his Force use and slide him inevitably to the Dark Side.

Yeah, don't disagree with any of this--except maybe the implication that the Force doesn't exist in real life (I think something that deeply resembles it does exist, it's just that how much actual magic power you get from tapping into it is debatable). I just think that the OT handled the implied philosophy of the Jedi better and less problematically than the explicit version presented in the prequels.

Lurkndog

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #143 on: February 17, 2022, 09:35:11 PM »
  Despite my derailing posts, I hope the next outing for Star wars media is to the fans liking.  Are there any plans regarding another movie?

There are many rumors circulating. I think part of it will depend on how quickly movie sales bounce back post-Covid.

Some of them have been cancelled, like Rian Johnson's proposed sequels, and a trilogy by the guys who were replaced by Ron Howard on Solo.

Patty Jenkins' Rogue Squadron movie is still moving forward AFAIK. I really hope they have a good script for that one.

oggsmash

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #144 on: February 17, 2022, 09:51:24 PM »
  Despite my derailing posts, I hope the next outing for Star wars media is to the fans liking.  Are there any plans regarding another movie?

There are many rumors circulating. I think part of it will depend on how quickly movie sales bounce back post-Covid.

Some of them have been cancelled, like Rian Johnson's proposed sequels, and a trilogy by the guys who were replaced by Ron Howard on Solo.

Patty Jenkins' Rogue Squadron movie is still moving forward AFAIK. I really hope they have a good script for that one.

  Honestly, from what I saw watching Spiderman, movie sales are fine.  People are just not going to show up for "filler" though.  Hollywood is going to have to try a little harder IMO.

Lurkndog

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2022, 08:04:26 AM »
The "Making of" documentary for Book of Boba Fett dropped today for May the Fourth. It's worth checking out, just to see some of the things that were going through their minds, and what was done practically versus CGI.

I was surprised to learn that Cad Bane was mostly done with practical effects.

Also, the reactions of the actors and creatives are sometimes great. Apparently Ming-Na Wen is a huge Star Wars fan, and had to actively check herself from geeking out over stuff.

Ratman_tf

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2022, 04:39:53 PM »
The "Making of" documentary for Book of Boba Fett dropped today for May the Fourth. It's worth checking out, just to see some of the things that were going through their minds, and what was done practically versus CGI.

I was surprised to learn that Cad Bane was mostly done with practical effects.

I think high def movies and TV have a tendency to make practical effects look as clean and sharp as CGI, and that's where a lot of people get the impression that practical effects are CGI.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Lurkndog

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2022, 08:36:30 PM »
The "Making of" documentary for Book of Boba Fett dropped today for May the Fourth. It's worth checking out, just to see some of the things that were going through their minds, and what was done practically versus CGI.

I was surprised to learn that Cad Bane was mostly done with practical effects.

I think high def movies and TV have a tendency to make practical effects look as clean and sharp as CGI, and that's where a lot of people get the impression that practical effects are CGI.

It wasn't so much the look of Cad Bane that made me think he was CGI, as the fact that he was always a CGI alien from when he was introduced on The Clone Wars.

Your point about good practical effects in HD looking like CGI is an interesting one. I think that good practical effects can look better than CGI. I'm thinking particularly of Ray Harryhausen's stop motion flying saucers in Earth vs. the Flying Saucers (1956), which in my opinion looked shockingly good, better than the UFOs in Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977). Well, except for the shot of the saucer hitting the capitol building, that one gives away the effect pretty badly.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 08:47:02 PM by Lurkndog »

Ratman_tf

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2022, 09:06:02 PM »
The "Making of" documentary for Book of Boba Fett dropped today for May the Fourth. It's worth checking out, just to see some of the things that were going through their minds, and what was done practically versus CGI.

I was surprised to learn that Cad Bane was mostly done with practical effects.

I think high def movies and TV have a tendency to make practical effects look as clean and sharp as CGI, and that's where a lot of people get the impression that practical effects are CGI.

It wasn't so much the look of Cad Bane that made me think he was CGI, as the fact that he was always a CGI alien from when he was introduced on The Clone Wars.

Your point about good practical effects in HD looking like CGI is an interesting one. I think that good practical effects can look better than CGI.

I think good practical effects often look better than even good CGI, because there are zillions of imperfections that accrue from building a prop or model. CGI has to intentionally include that.



But they're getting there. I think if CGI teams focused on replicating the look of filming a practical model, instead of trying to make it look "real" that would go a long way. Include imperfections and the limitations of fliming a prop, that kind of thing.

 
Quote
I'm thinking particularly of Ray Harryhausen's stop motion flying saucers in Earth vs. the Flying Saucers (1956), which in my opinion looked shockingly good, better than the UFOs in Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977). Well, except for the shot of the saucer hitting the capitol building, that one gives away the effect pretty badly.

:)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:13:44 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Omega

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Re: THE BOOK OF BOBA FETT (Delayed Spoilers)
« Reply #149 on: May 06, 2022, 01:38:45 AM »
The "Making of" documentary for Book of Boba Fett dropped today for May the Fourth. It's worth checking out, just to see some of the things that were going through their minds, and what was done practically versus CGI.

I was surprised to learn that Cad Bane was mostly done with practical effects.

I think high def movies and TV have a tendency to make practical effects look as clean and sharp as CGI, and that's where a lot of people get the impression that practical effects are CGI.

There are apparently people who cant tell a real worlf from a CGI wolf. One reviewer of a movie infamously proclaimed the wolves in some survival movie bad CGI. When they were real. And I've seen it for other movies too with this or that moron bitching about how fake the CGI is. When its not CG...