TheRPGSite

Quote from: rpg.netYou have been banned for the following reason:
Passive-aggressive trolling, being bad for the site as a whole.

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

I wonder what I did. Oh well, I'll miss the place. Now to figure out the cookies thingo so I can at least look at Roleplaying Open while unregistered. The place can be interesting to read, even if I can't post.

On the one hand, it irritates me because They changed the rules rather than me changing my posting. On the other, well, you may have noticed I like to tell people what I think of them.

First thing I ever posted to RPG.net (in, er, 98? 99?) got me insulted by S. John Ross in return. It was The place to go if you fancied a ruck for a long time.

(Incidentally, if anyone wonders a lot of my Forge Rage comes from getting banned from my favorite site because I had the temerity to tell a burning wheel cultist that attempting to redefine anything that isn't like Burning Empires as a 'Coffee Table Book' and not really roleplaying material at all was dirty pool. Fucking Kasumi wanker. Fucking forge speak.














Well, that and some other stuff.)

As I've said before, a small site needs prescriptive moderation, and a large one, more proscriptive moderation. So it's natural that the rules will multiply and be more strongly enforced as time goes on.

But some of their rulings have puzzled me. I guess that's inevitable, too. As the rules multiply, the rulings will be more likely to puzzle someone-or-other. When tehre are just a few hundred members, the only bannings will be of real shitheads no-one will miss; when there are tens of thousands of members, whatever a person does to get banned, someone will think it's a bullshit ban, and sometimes that someone will be the poster themselves.

I'm quite disappointed, really. I do feel I contributed a lot to that site. I made lots of posts in which I tried to amuse people, pass on the little I know about gaming, running game groups (can't pass on any wisdom about playing because I'm a terrible player), learned a lot, etc.

I do think the centre of gravity of the site, the perception of where the "important" discussion is happening, has moved from Roleplaying Open to Tangency. Most of the rules have popped up from interactions in the non-gaming side of it. Which is a bit like your game sessions being four hours of talking shit, and only one hour of gaming. A pity, but it still leaves a lot of good gaming discussion. At least I can read that, still.

Edit: if it's any consolation, Erik, I've gamed with Kasumi, and I didn't enjoy it much. He told us that the session would be 50% Gamist, 30% Narrativist, and 20% Simulationist. As a result, it was 100% boring. In our little club we had for a while no-one seemed to like his GMing. He was a pretty good player, though, contributing well to the fun of the group.

I'm sure there's something in psych (or pop-psych) about passive-aggressiveness being a result of an environment that suppresses honest discussion.

uh... what thread? What account?

I hadn't realized that they have the list of accounts widget disabled.

Because of you I posted on Trouble Tickets - my first post ever there. Guess I wanted to do something productive before I said and did anything else (anywhere else) - that is if posting on TT is ever productive :D

BTW the last thread you started there was about how gamers talk about their games...got to admit JimBob, that's pretty funny, considering ....

Regards,
David R

I'm kinda shocked. You certaintly had moments that may have been a pain to them, but it's almost like they just decided to sit down a couple days ago and decide you had to go.

I really don't get that place anymore. It's like some bizarre Pleasantville where anything beyond numb politeness gets you in trouble. It's really kinda sad.

Dar, it was the "Jim Bob" account. David R is referring to this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=297222).

Elliot, I have never found anyone who knew me to accuse me of "passive aggression". Aggression, yes, passive, no.

Some French guy once said that a novel is like a deep well - if you peer into it long enough, you see something dimly reflected - yourself. I think that's true of many kinds of text, including forums. When we can't see people's faces and hear the tone of their voice, we attribute to it our own views, our own fears and desires. For example, Curt in his pre-modding-rpg.net days tended to think that everyone was homophobic. I don't think he can have been right all the time.

My banning email read,

QuoteAfter a long discussion backstage, we've decided that it would be better if you found another site to post to; your posting style tends to be incompatible with the function of the board. The latest offense involved you describing another poster who was only on Tangency and wondering why he was there, which is passive-aggressive trolling at best.

If you'd like to appeal this ban, then you can contact the admins at admin.rpgnet@gmail.com

I replied,

QuoteI should certainly like to appeal my ban. I believe that my posts and threads do in fact contribute a lot to the site, encouraging discussion of roleplaying, of how game groups work, and so on.

I was not aware it was an "offense" to wonder out loud why someone is on a site if they have no interest in the main topic of the site?

I am certainly open to suggestions of how I could alter the tone and content of my posts to better contribute to the main purpose of the site.

My experience is that the admins tend to fully back the moderators, usually in the form of not replying to appeals at all. So I am not hopeful. But I'm certainly disappointed.

Quote from: JamesVI really don't get that place anymore. It's like some bizarre Pleasantville where anything beyond numb politeness gets you in trouble. It's really kinda sad.

It is indeed a strange kind of Pleasantville. The "porn monday" and cosplayer threads are... not exactly 1950s-style good manners.

In the end, though, any forum is a really informal community. And if the people in charge of the community decide they don't like you, then you're out, whatever you do or don't do. If they like you but you go around calling people cunts (more or less), then you'll still be banned... but after a rather long time (see Amado G).

I guess someone just didn't like me.

*shrug*

Again, it's a pity. I think it's a fine site with many interesting discussions on it. I'm also saddened that this'll be more "evidence" for RPGPundit's mad ideas about Swine Conspiracies.

That is sad, JimBob, and I (like you) find it a bit inexplicable.

The idea that they're banning you forever based on how they read your tone is ... wacky.

Now I have to go over and check whether I can still post or not.  I certainly know that there are mods who don't like the tone they hear when they read my posts.

Quote from: TonyLBNow I have to go over and check whether I can still post or not.  I certainly know that there are mods who don't like the tone they hear when they read my posts.

That's the part that depresses me most of all. Over there it's not just about following the rules, it's slowly about making sure they have no reason to dislike you. No matter how nice you are or how hard you try to contribute to the discussion, you have to watch out, because if you phrase yourself poorly, you may just become someone they keep an eye on for being 'bad for the site'. That's how this banning is coming off to me, and it's just one more plain strange decision in a growing number of strange decisions.

As a friend of mine is so fond of saying, "Eh.  Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."

I considered for a while trying to make a second attempt at appealing my own ban, but honestly, everything I read sounds like the site has devolved even more since I've gone away, and frankly, I've changed a fair lot myself since then.

I'm not RPGnet material anymore.  I'm too used to speaking my piece in all honesty and brutality, rather than playing the passive agressive games they encourage on RPGnet.  I like being able to call a spade a spade, and fuck anyone who can't deal with that.

Quote from: TonyLBThe idea that they're banning you forever based on how they read your tone is ... wacky.

I could be entirely wrong. We may never know!

Quote from: TonyLBNow I have to go over and check whether I can still post or not.  I certainly know that there are mods who don't like the tone they hear when they read my posts.

I think you'll be alright. I'd be very surprised were they to ban you. That said, life is unpredictable sometimes ;)

A friend emailed me and was saying, why do they have Trouble Tickets if they shut down any discussion as soon as it starts? I think some of the mods are burned out and tired, which is why they shut down any Trouble Tickets discussion of bannings, etc. Essentially it's a backlash against years of discussing things down to the most minor detail of word or tone, combined with a bit of the old Moderator Burnout.

At one time, Cessna created a new structure of admins/mods, that the mods would make the banning decisions, but the admins wouldn't, they'd only be Courts of Appeal. At the same time, he created a subforum for Trouble Tickets, called the Cesspool, a forum which the moderators couldn't see, but admins and posters could see, the idea being that posters could bitch about - er, talk about moderator decisions, in case of fear of moderators taking it personally.

It was a major bitchfest, and Cessna got disgusted, closed it down, and it was from then on that threads started getting instantly locked in Trouble Tickets. It was a backlash, "fuck you guys, you got nothing useful to say, anyway."

That sort of jaded nature, assuming all criticism will be wrong, is usually an indicator that a person's been doing their job too long. Many of the moderators have had that tone for some time. They're just sick of us.

I just wonder who on Earth would hit the report button for a post where someone said, "why would someone be on this site if they don't like the site's topics?" I mean...

Quote from: J ArcaneI considered for a while trying to make a second attempt at appealing my own ban, but honestly, everything I read sounds like the site has devolved even more since I've gone away...

Here on therpgsite someone was saying that he didn't want to post here because he didn't like RPGPundit. And I've had the same from people privately. I'll answer you in the same way I answer them: a forum is nothing but the sum total of all its posts. The moderators are not the forum, the rules are not the forum, the colour scheme is not the forum - it's the posts to it.

If you find the posts to a forum interesting to read, and if some of them make you want to reply, even just to say, "me, too!" then that's a good and useful forum. So to me, rpg.net is a good and useful forum, and I'll miss being able to post to it.

It's funny, a while back they used to never note when someone had been banned, the first news we'd get would be someone's Trouble Tickets thread asking about the banning, and there'd be long arguments about it, etc - the funniest part was when the argument would go on so long, the banned poster would return from their suspension to contribute to it. I'm pretty sure I was the first person to suggest, "post a thread saying who, why and for how long the guy was banned, lock it, and refuse to discuss it publicly." Now it's happening to me, and (I'm told), the thread about my banning has been angrily locked. That's pretty ironic, eh? The moderation idea I contributed is now being used against me. PWNED!

JimBob, I've never found you anything but reasonable, but maybe I'm a bit of a bastard myself.

Wow, they aren't even trying to give a good reason for the ban.

Sorry to hear that it happened, JimBob.

I don't really post too much over at RPG.net, but I read the boards regularly.  I haven't been reading them as much the past several months, though, as the discussions have been dominated by topics that don't interest me personally.  And it seems that the more interesting posters, the ones who pretty much had me reading every thread that could even be of marginal interest to me so I could benefit from some of their insights and experience, are gone due to bannings or otherwise.

You are (were) one of those posters.

I really think the mods have been doing more harm than good there lately with many of their decisions.  I don't think they're trying to be the bad guys; maybe it is burnout like you say.  It's a damn shame either way, though, and just one more reason that this site is taking a more and more prominent place in my daily browsing.

Thanks for the vote of cinfidence, guys. Matt, I would note that you can be reasonable, and still piss people off. :cool: Sometimes the very reasonableness annoys them. But who knows.

KenHR, it's a pity that the posts you found interesting, you didn't post replies to. I've learned a lot from people's responses to the things I've said and asked. For example, I could not have written d4-d4 without the contributions, both direct ("you should do this") and indirect ("hey, in this other thread a guy said he hated when games did so-and-so, so I better toss out that idea). You may or may not like d4-d4; nonetheless, actually finishing to publishable standard 44,000 words of rpg is, for me, a significant achievement, and one I give much of the credit for to the posters of rpg.net.

I have said for a while that once a forum reaches a certain size, how interesting or useful it is has little to do with the moderation. The moderation runs in parallel to it, neither helping nor hindering. On a smaller site, the tone and worth of the place is much more sensitive to the moderation. So for example, therpgsite's forums are very friendly to all sorts of approaches to gaming, but they are very unfriendly to women and homosexuals.

But who knows what the future holds. Old Curt got permabanned twice, and came back to be a mod! I do not think that lies in my future, but still.

Quote from: JimBobOzI have said for a while that once a forum reaches a certain size, how interesting or useful it is has little to do with the moderation. The moderation runs in parallel to it, neither helping nor hindering. On a smaller site, the tone and worth of the place is much more sensitive to the moderation. So for example, therpgsite's forums are very friendly to all sorts of approaches to gaming, but they are very unfriendly to women and homosexuals.

I disagree.  This site is unfriendly to thin-skinned people of any kind. Its also unfriendly to people who are coming here explicitly and solely to discuss something that falls outside the  mission statement of the site, be it Forge theory or some pet subject that has little to do with mainstream RPGs.
But I don't think its specifically unfriendly to people of any specific race, gender, or sexual orientation. Unless you're saying homosexuals and women are inherently delicate flowers that must be treated with particular special deference. I disagree with that idea, of course.

RPGPundit

The reason you got banned?  In short, you were no longer amusing to the moderators/admins.  I have a feeling they long viewed you as the jester/clown, prancing about for their amusement.  You've long spoken out about the shift in the site from gaming to "Tangency issues", and it's no surprise that they banned you for making a remark about such a topic.  RPGnet is about the Tangency clique, and possibly the Exalted shills, not much else.

You'll have to share what message you get back from your appeal.  I imagine you'll have to send a few more e-mails to get a response.  The "appeals process" seems to primarily be about ignoring someone until they go away.  I imagine the response will be terse and not answer your questions in any shape or form.  I imagine the entire body of it will be something like, "The ban stands."

I didn't even get anything that straightforward.  I got one sentence to the effect of "I'll talk it over with the other admins" or some bullshit like that.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo for example, therpgsite's forums are very friendly to all sorts of approaches to gaming, but they are very unfriendly to women and homosexuals.

You people are unfriendly to me? I hadn't noticed.

Quote from: JimBobOzAt one time, Cessna created a new structure of admins/mods, that the mods would make the banning decisions, but the admins wouldn't, they'd only be Courts of Appeal. At the same time, he created a subforum for Trouble Tickets, called the Cesspool, a forum which the moderators couldn't see, but admins and posters could see, the idea being that posters could bitch about - er, talk about moderator decisions, in case of fear of moderators taking it personally.

It was a major bitchfest, and Cessna got disgusted, closed it down, and it was from then on that threads started getting instantly locked in Trouble Tickets. It was a backlash, "fuck you guys, you got nothing useful to say, anyway."

That sort of jaded nature, assuming all criticism will be wrong, is usually an indicator that a person's been doing their job too long. Many of the moderators have had that tone for some time. They're just sick of us.

I just wonder who on Earth would hit the report button for a post where someone said, "why would someone be on this site if they don't like the site's topics?" I mean...

Cessna has directly stated on several occasions that he views the site users as the "enemy."  He has a definite case of "Marine Complex."

My main memory of the Cesspool is the result of a comment I made.  As we both know, RPGnet encourages everyone, particularly the moderators, to have sockpuppet accounts.  The Cesspool was supposed to be off-limits to moderators; only admins were supposed to see the posts inside.  I made the comment that it wasn't really as private as everyone thought, because one of the moderators could easily use one of their sockpuppet accounts to sign on and view the Cesspool.  I certainly don't think this is out of the question, because I had seen moderator posts which had quoted arguments in the Cesspool and several times it had been directly said that the moderators and admins traded back and forth comments made by users about them and joked about the users themselves.  Of course, predictably Cessna blew up, called me paranoid, and claimed that the security on the Cesspool was impregnable.  Shortly thereafter, it was removed.

As for who would press the report button, it's anyone's guess.  It was probably a Tangency regular who regularly brownnoses.  It might have been a moderator who didn't like the implication about their friends.

Someone was kind enough to forward a copy of the Trouble Tickets thread to me.

Quote from: CessnaThere was a straw, and a camel's back, and when examining the straw in isolation it seems very small, but when looking at the pile of hay on the camel's back, it was time for somebody to go.

I guess I am just a pile of straw :(

Quote from: BoyTypeRanmaYou people are unfriendly to me? I hadn't noticed.

I get a vague feeling of geeks saying, "that's so gay, d00d!" and "st00pid fag!" while reading through these threads. As to women, well, lonely geek boys like RPGPundit saying they're all money-grabbing evil bitches probably doesn't help.

But the proof's in the pudding, really. What percentage of the posters here are female? And what percentage on, say, rpg.net?

I have no worries about there being women and gays on the board as such, it's just like gaming in general - I just want more people around, and to cut out half your potential participants seems foolish. I don't do it with my game group, I wouldn't do it with a forum.

Well the thread asking about your banning has been locked with no real answer given 'straw that broke the camels back'

I recall a multipage discussion being allowed for someone who was much more hostile but freindly with the admins. Guess you didn't bring them donuts enough.

I recently quit posting there after I asked what people thought of the moderation on the site. Seems a majority are happy or afraid to express negative opinions. The moderation is not likely to change to a style I'd be comfortable posting within so I left. I stop in and read occasionaly but unless something changes I won't post there.

Like I said, JimBob's a strawman.  :p

JimBob, I think it's a damn shame that RPGnet will not benefit from your posts anymore.  Yours are exactly the kind of interventions I enjoyed: funny, knowledgeable, no-nonsense, written in plain English, and actually, y'know, containing ideas.  I'm certainly offended by the fact that no one can even give a credible or even intelligible reason for the ban -- and that discussion is not allowed.  It would be nice to know where the landmines are!  :mad:

Anemone, so far as I can tell, it comes down to "we don't like you." Notice that the first person to comment in favour of my banning was Eric Brennan. He's previously posted in a very hostile manner towards me. Some months ago, I think it was in a Trouble Tickets thread, he posted something to the effect of "I'm sick of your shit, you don't break any rules but threads you're in turn flamey, if you keep it up you'll be permabanned."

I was a bit puzzled by this Landmine Warning - "We won't tell you what you're doing wrong, but set a foot wrong and you're blown" - but decided to lay low for a bit. Not long after that, Brennan stopped being a mod/admin (quit or fired I don't know, he seemed burned out, but then so does Cessna and he stays). But former mod/admins often have, or feel they have, some influence on affairs. Notice for example Topher's frequent posts warning others of their misdeeds.

I said long ago, that really rpg.net - and any other forum - has just one rule: don't fuck with the mods. All the rest is just tinsel on the tree. I didn't fuck with the mods, but someone there obviously disliked me.

If you post a lot, you'll come to their attention. Some, like Amado G., they'll like. Some, like me, they'll dislike. Likes and dislikes are not rational. Haven't you ever kicked someone out of your game group because you just plain didn't like him? Or kept someone who was a cocksmock, but you liked him?

That's life. They're only human.

I say again, aside from feeling sad at in some ways losing all the effort I put into posts there, one of my chief regrets is that RPGPundit will take this as more "evidence" of the Swine Conspiracy. :rolleyes:

I sent a private, polite but unhappy comment to the admins (though I didn't post it on Trouble Tickets since that would be considered provocation and would ensure that they don't actually read anything I say before getting angry.)  :ACF114F:

QuotePassive-aggressive trolling, being bad for the site as a whole.

Fuck – somebody finally noticed!


RPG.net sure is getting proactive.

I just saw this on trouble tickets and the temptation to open up another thread was overwhelming because this is just so utterly ridiculous. But then I've been making a nuisance of myself in trouble tickets recently, so it would just be closed down immediately and a black mark put against my name.

Jim Bob, I think this is an absolute shame and a very sad day for rpgnet, since you contributed a hell of a lot to the forums with countless well thought out and intelligent posts. I'll miss your insights. What saddens me more is that it appears that the upshot of all those threads questioning whether rpgnet was overmoderated and the chorus of "four legs good, two legs bad!" that drowns out any discussion has been to embolden the mods further and make them feel even less constrained in their biases. That anyone could read the manner of your banning and not think that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark would seem to be beyond belief, except that the evidence has shown that this will undoubtedly be the case.

I'm just glad that Cessna was considerate enough to provide a link to this place a while ago...I checked it out at the time, and amazingly enough my eyes didn't burn or wither away from the horror of it all. This is my first post, but unfortunately, the more I see of the trend in rpgnet, the more sure I am that this will not be the last.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeI just saw this and the temptation to open up another thread was overwhelming, because this is just so utterly ridiculous, but then I've been making a nuisance of myself in trouble tickets recently, so it would just be closed down immediately and a black mark put against my name.

My personal advice is not to post a new thread to Trouble Tickets. They already closed down one; that means they don't want another! If a person doesn't want to discuss something, constantly prodding them about it won't improve matters.

In general, private emails and comments will be better-received than public ones. There's nothing special about rpg.net in this regard - if you're confronted publicly about anything, you're more likely to respond with hostility than if you're confronted privately. It's just human nature.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeJim Bob, I think this is an absolute shame and a very sad day for rpgnet, since it you contributed a hell of a lot to the forums with countless well thought out and intelligent posts. I'll miss your insights.

Thankyou for your compliments. I would say, firstly, that I am far from unique, and there remain many fine and interesting posters, and rpg.net will still be well-worth checking out, and posting to (for those of us who can). So keep checking it out!

Secondly, you can always find my words here, and at my blog, and of course by email, so it shouldn't be a worry for you. Like Pundit, I'm sure I'll continue to pull interesting threads and posts from rpg.net to respond to here and elsewhere. It's unfortunate that I'll be missing out on those conversations, because the worth of a conversation isn't just one poster, but all the people in it - and most of the people won't be seen here and in other forums, one's more than enough for them.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeThat anyone could read the manner of your banning and not think that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark would seem to be beyond belief, except that the evidence has shown that this will undoubtedly be the case.

I think it's entirely fair for them to ban people based on nothing more than personal dislike. It's a pain in the arse, but we have to accept that a forum is like any other kind of social group. It's not entirely rational.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeThis is my first post, but unfortunately, the more I see of the trend in rpgnet, the more sure I am that this will not be the last.

As I've said before, different forums are good for different kinds of discussions. rpg.net is good because it has so many posters, so you'll always get very different kinds of views, whatever you post. This, being a smaller forum, is a bit closer to being in your game group, or club, and talking shit.

I've been surprised at the number of people who give a shit whether I'm banned or not, it's quite flattering. I'll say again that I'll miss the conversations there. They just need a few more mods with active game groups to give them perspective ;)

Quote from: JimBobOzBut the proof's in the pudding, really. What percentage of the posters here are female? And what percentage on, say, rpg.net?

I get what you are saying. I wonder though, is there a PC like mentality when it involves specific groups which has become more or less dogma on TBP. More and more I get the feeling that there is an acceptable mode of thought - esp on Tangency - which if you don't adhere to, joke about or argue against (with any spirit) it is considered as if you looking for trouble.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI wonder though, is there a PC like mentality when it involves specific groups which has become more or less dogma on TBP. More and more I get the feeling that there is an acceptable mode of thought - esp on Tangency - which if you don't adhere to, joke about or argue against (with any spirit) it is considered as if you looking for trouble.

I don't think it's "PC". If it were politically-correct, there wouldn't [porn monday] or h4wt chixxor cosplay threads. I guess you might call it Lonely Geek PC - nice words, nasty actions. White straight middle-classed kids who've never in their lives met a gay or black person try hard not to seem bigoted. There was a thread a while ago where someone timidly asked what he, a straight guy, could do to help the position of gays in society. The feeling I get is that there are lonely geeks tentatively stepping into the world of diversity, trying not to offend anyone - in between the occasional wank over the h4wt cosplay chixxorz.

I certainly think that Tangency Open is the source of much that happens on rpg.net in its style and moderation. All the stuff about racism, sexism, etc - it just didn't come up on Roleplaying Open. I think it's a bad sign when a poster has something political in their signature on rpg.net. Every time I see a quote from Al Gore or some shit, I think, "mate, what are you here for?" The very fact that asking that question was considered "passive-aggressive trolling" shows how much Tangency dominates rpg.net in terms of moderation.

As a large forum, they must of course have more proscriptive than prescriptive moderation. But I think that to a degree this proscriptive approach has made them forget the things they should still be prescribing - roleplaying games. Tangency could evapourate in a server fart one day, and the forum would go on; if the roleplaying parts of the site were to be unusuable, the left-over Tangency part would become just irrelevant, about as useful and popular as the old Nutkinland forums. I think they've forgotten what they're there for. I'm not sure what proportion of the moderators and admins actively roleplay. They certainly don't talk their gaming much. I think they've lost their way.

Not that it matters to most of the users of the forums, though, who can happily post and read as much as they want about rpgs ;)

QuoteI certainly think that Tangency Open is the source of much that happens on rpg.net in its style and moderation. All the stuff about racism, sexism, etc - it just didn't come up on Roleplaying Open.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong.  Shit like that came up all the goddamn time on RP Open.  Some of it's most legendary flamewars centered around shit like that.  Usually it was because of some dumbass game like PIMP or GRIMJIM's stupid "Guide to Women Gamers", but there were plenty of other times when it just sort of popped in out of the blue and derailed a thread.

And there was, for some time, quite a different atmosphere in how the two forums responded to these sorts of incidents, which only fueled the wierd gulf between the two.

Actually, you're right, it did come up on Roleplaying Open. But only sometimes. Whereas issues of politics, gender, race and sexuality come up every single day on Tangency Open. So...

Quote from: JimBobOzActually, you're right, it did come up on Roleplaying Open. But only sometimes. Whereas issues of politics, gender, race and sexuality come up every single day on Tangency Open. So...

You of course have a point there as well (or at least enough of one that I don't care enough to argue with.  ;) )

RP Open had plenty of shit like that, but with Tangency, it was the main course.  Such is the nature of an offtopic board on a web forum.  Unless you ban the politics altogether, it happens.

Well it's irrelevant to me, in any case. I certainly have my own prejudices, but I was not banned for any expression of them.

Well, it ain't the end of the world. Hell, I've rarely ever gone to RPG.net except to read the occasional review linked from elsewhere, and my history as a poster there is even more thin. There's a whole 'nother posting universe out there.

In a word?
REVOLTING.

In three additional words?
Yet not unexpected.

I'd keep going, but I've been trying very hard not to bring the moments Big Purple makes me throw up in my mouth over here. However, I'm pleased to still read your oft-ascerbic wit over here. We just need to rope a couple idiots over for you to work over. :D

That "only gamers know who Monte Cook is" crack nearly made me wet my pants, and I bet that's where this got warmed up from.

I'd certainly encourage people to keep going there, and to post. It depends on what you're after, I suppose - but if you want interesting gaming discussion, you can get it there. You just might get randomly banned or promoted to mod-hood some day, is all :p

So you were basically banned because comissar cessna and/or his buds didn't like you and came up with a vague, ill defined 'reason' to justify it.

At least they had to give a reason, on SJG the modclique doesn't even do that.

Anyway, sorry to see it happened if it bothered you. Take heart from the fzact that one day those assholes will fuckover someone who happens to be a good hacker, and hopefully he'll do something totally memorable and irrepairable to their server.

Quote from: Christmas ApeIThat "only gamers know who Monte Cook is" crack nearly made me wet my pants, and I bet that's where this got warmed up from.

Well, Kiero isn't what most gamers think of when they say, "gamer." He's tried games with groups face-to-face, and didn't like it. He plays the occasional infrequent face-to-face game with his missus, and runs a couple of play-by-post games. When you say, "roleplaying," for most gamers the mental image that pops up is a bunch of people around a table eating dice and rolling cheetos - or was it the other way around? I forget. The mental image is not of a guy sitting at his keyboard carefully crafting his single roleplaying post of the day...

So it may have been a cruel crack, but is a fair one. Kiero's a guy who presents himself as quite the gamer, and is a bit of a mascot for Roleplaying Open. But... he doesn't game, and he doesn't like gamers, he's said so often.

Him popping up and saying, "who's Monte Cook?" mate, it's like going to Alcoholics Anonymous and having a guy say, "who's Jack Daniels?" You gotta doubt whether he should really be there...

Apologies for the threadjack, but...

Quote from: Dominus NoxSo you were basically banned because comissar cessna and/or his buds didn't like you and came up with a vague, ill defined 'reason' to justify it.

At least they had to give a reason, on SJG the modclique doesn't even do that.

Anyway, sorry to see it happened if it bothered you. Take heart from the fzact that one day those assholes will fuckover someone who happens to be a good hacker, and hopefully he'll do something totally memorable and irrepairable to their server.

Dominus. I offer you a challenge with no risk or reward other than fulfilling or failing the challenge, which you may also ignore if you wish. But try this:

Go a week without talking about your hate boner for the SJG forums. One week. Seven days, one hundred and sixty eight hours, without mentioning it in any thread. Just to see if you can manage. I mean, it's not like it's offending me, but we get it. You don't like their moderation policies. But this isn't the "people pissed off with SJG forums" site. We're not here to nurse grudges.

To my knowledge.

Quote from: Dominus NoxTake heart from the fzact that one day those assholes will fuckover someone who happens to be a good hacker, and hopefully he'll do something totally memorable and irrepairable to their server.

I would not hope for that, that would be lame and stupid.

A much better revenge would be to GM them...

"Okay, Cessna, here's your character, a pacifist who's afraid of flying. MacLennan, here's yours, he's a wraethuthu who is under a geas not to use profanity. Curt? You're playing a straight Klansman." And so on. The GM is best placed to cause cruel revenge. You are just not imaginative enough, Dominus Nox. How on Earth do you manage to GM? :p

Quote from: Christmas ApeApologies for the threadjack, but...
Dominus. I offer you a challenge with no risk or reward other than fulfilling or failing the challenge, which you may also ignore if you wish. But try this:

Go a week without talking about your hate boner for the SJG forums. One week. Seven days, one hundred and sixty eight hours, without mentioning it in any thread. Just to see if you can manage. I mean, it's not like it's offending me, but we get it. You don't like their moderation policies. But this isn't the "people pissed off with SJG forums" site. We're not here to nurse grudges.

To my knowledge.

CA, if you don't like my posts, feel free to use your IL.

Quote from: Dominus NoxCA, if you don't like my posts, feel free to use your IL.

I don't recall saying that. I've seen some posts from you that were easy to read and even entertaining or useful. I was just theorizing - okay, bad word for here ;D - that maybe it's not applicable in every situation. That possibly, just maybe, given it's one of your central non-Klan themes, we'd all figured it out. That in the same way Pundit didn't want this place to become the anti-RPG.net, your efforts to make this an anti-'SJG forums' site might be inappropriate.

You're not interested? Hey, that's your right. I don't have a black avatar, I have no power over you. Just thought I'd put that out there, see if you felt up to it. No skin off my ass if not.

Besides, IL you? I'd miss all the wonderful times you open your mouth and jam both feet in up to the knees.

Quote from: JimBobOzMy personal advice is not to post a new thread to Trouble Tickets. They already closed down one; that means they don't want another! If a person doesn't want to discuss something, constantly prodding them about it won't improve matters.

In general, private emails and comments will be better-received than public ones. There's nothing special about rpg.net in this regard - if you're confronted publicly about anything, you're more likely to respond with hostility than if you're confronted privately. It's just human nature.

Given that I tried doing things their way by appealing J Arcane's ban with a considered and polite PM and got no response whatsoever, I'd consider that a waste of time. Posting on TT at least gives me a voice to express my dissent, even if it is closed immediately. And of course, closing it immediately would only prove my point. But then today's events have sadly convinced me that it is pointless - they just aren't prepared to listen or tolerate dissent.

QuoteThankyou for your compliments. I would say, firstly, that I am far from unique, and there remain many fine and interesting posters, and rpg.net will still be well-worth checking out, and posting to (for those of us who can). So keep checking it out!

Oh, I will. To be honest, I don't find much of value in roleplaying open these days - it's just swamped with Theory and Forgite proselytising. But I'll stick around for the PbP and Art of Game Design if nothing else.

QuoteI think it's entirely fair for them to ban people based on nothing more than personal dislike. It's a pain in the arse, but we have to accept that a forum is like any other kind of social group. It's not entirely rational.

Well I strongly disagree, but then my views of freedom of speech are fairly extreme.

QuoteI've been surprised at the number of people who give a shit whether I'm banned or not, it's quite flattering. I'll say again that I'll miss the conversations there. They just need a few more mods with active game groups to give them perspective ;)

Actually I think the moderating culture there is the problem. I think the only way things would get better would be a sweeping change, with at least half the current mods replaced with fresh faces. Generational change and all that. Maybe they should invoke term limits. ;)

We're unfriendly to women and homosexuals?  Is that forum policy now?  Do we have to be or can we just like not get in the way when people are ranting about women and gays?

Because you know, I post on other forums and work from home quite a bit so I don't think I'll be able to devote myself full-time to the job of hating women and homosexuals.

Quote from: BoyTypeRanmaYou people are unfriendly to me? I hadn't noticed.

Me either.  There was some sort of rant that included furry fans as a target on this site somewhere, but nobody's been shitting on me personally yet.

Quote from: JimBobOzI said long ago, that really rpg.net - and any other forum - has just one rule: don't fuck with the mods. All the rest is just tinsel on the tree. I didn't fuck with the mods, but someone there obviously disliked me.

If you post a lot, you'll come to their attention. Some, like Amado G., they'll like. Some, like me, they'll dislike. Likes and dislikes are not rational. Haven't you ever kicked someone out of your game group because you just plain didn't like him? Or kept someone who was a cocksmock, but you liked him?

That's life. They're only human.

Unfortunately that bodes ill for me.  I've pissed off an admin in the past, to the point where I requested via PM that he refrain from conversing with me.

And now that they're openly banning people just because they dislike them.  Ugh.

I've found RPOpen to be a good place for roleplaying discussion in the past,  but it seems like it's grown harder and harder to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Good gaming discussion rarely happens anymore.  Instead you get Kiero-esque bitter-ex-gamer naval gazing.  Threads with topics like, "People that make you think of Exalted characters" and and "WUSHU - is anyone still playing?" hold about 0 interest for me.  I'd like to...  I dunno, dig into the meat and potatoes.  So maybe it won't be too big of a loss now that we're being lined up against the wall.

*Tongue wedges firmly into cheek*
Wow, maybe I just don't know who I'm dealing with over there, but check a bit of what I just Googl'd:

The wrath of Mods are like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course, when once it is let loose. It is true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of Mod's vengeances have been withheld; but your negative posts in the mean time are constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more snark; the waters are constantly rising, and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of Admin, that holds the waters back, that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward. If the Admin should only withdraw his hand from the flood-gate, bannings would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of Mods, would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest storm giant in Faerun, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.

The bow of Mods' wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of Admins, and that of angry Admins, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your post count. Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of Tangency upon your souls; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in gaming discussion, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of angry Mods. However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had Narrativist RPG preferences, and may keep up a form of GNS discussion in your families and closets, and in the house of Big Purple, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting permaban. However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it. Those that are gone from being in the like circumstances with you, see that it was so with them; for bans come suddenly upon some of them; when they expected nothing of it, and while they were saying, Peace and safety: now they see, that those things on which they depended for peace and safety, were nothing but thin air and empty shadows.

The Mods that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. Your posts about gaming have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn D20 fan did a Wushu fan; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that Admin hands have held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not been banninated, since you have sat here in the house of Big Purple, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of talking about RPGs. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

It's a fire and brimstone fest! ;)

Essentially the published RPGnet rules are a stick with which to beat people the mods deem troublesome.  If a rule can be stretched to exclude someone bothersome then it will (for example, I was banned under the group attack rule last time for saying that people who read Drizzt novels are wasting their time... the group attack rule being originally written so as to exclude racists and homophobes).  But the mods have other sticks too.

I remember back in the day the big ginger guy, benjamin something or other was permabanned "pre-emptively" on much the same grounds as JimBob.  there was a big stink kicked up about how he hadn't broken any actual rules and he was re-instated.

Nowadays, seemingly it's common practice for people to be banned pre-emptively without actually breaking any rules.  The difference is that A) the posters have become institutionalised and are used to it so they don't complain and B) if people DO complain then the thread gets locked before it picks up any steam.

The scary thing about RPGnet isn't the actual moderation, though it is arguably some of the worst anywhere on the internet, it's the attitudes of the posters to moderation.

If you look at it from a sociological perspective, it's actually quite similar to some of the stuff going on in America right now.  People become use to having their freedoms trampled on and they come to love the people that do the trampling.

The thread Balbinus started won't be interesting for the responses of the mods (they'll bring out the old platitudes about the spirit of the rules, the fact that it's a private site and so on), but rather the posts that uncritically "support them".

RPGnet is not a nice place fucked up by bad moderation... it's a fucked up place full stop.

JamesV, that was fucking awesome. Your post makes Cessna's "komissar" title look as lame as Dominus Nox's revenge pr0n fantasies. They have much to learn :p

Quote from: JimBobOzJamesV, that was fucking awesome. Your post makes Cessna's "komissar" title look as lame as Dominus Nox's revenge pr0n fantasies. They have much to learn :p

Ahh, posters in the hands of an angry Mod.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNowadays, seemingly it's common practice for people to be banned pre-emptively without actually breaking any rules.  The difference is that A) the posters have become institutionalised and are used to it so they don't complain and B) if people DO complain then the thread gets locked before it picks up any steam.

What's surprised me is that a number of people have emailed, or PMed me on this or other sites, saying that they think it's a bad ban, but they daren't say anything publicly. It's not "millions of lurkers support me in email," about half a dozen - but I honestly wouldn't have expected even that many to notice I was banned, or care, let alone bother to email.

I'm surprised people dare not say things publicly.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe thread Balbinus started won't be interesting for the responses of the mods (they'll bring out the old platitudes about the spirit of the rules, the fact that it's a private site and so on), but rather the posts that uncritically "support them".

Well, obviously I won't see this thread of Balbinus' - what's it about? I hope people will be kind enough to post me highlights ;)

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalRPGnet is not a nice place fucked up by bad moderation... it's a fucked up place full stop.

I disagree, obviously. It's not fucked-up, it just has somewhat foggy moderation. But it has many fine and interesting posters. After a long time online discussing things, we become somewhat jaded to it all, and cynical about the content, and more snarky about the relative worth of threads and people's opinions. Keeping that in mind, I think it's fair to say that rpg.net is as good and bad as it ever was, for its actual original purpose, discussing rpgs.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalEssentially the published RPGnet rules are a stick with which to beat people the mods deem troublesome.  If a rule can be stretched to exclude someone bothersome then it will (for example, I was banned under the group attack rule last time for saying that people who read Drizzt novels are wasting their time... the group attack rule being originally written so as to exclude racists and homophobes).  But the mods have other sticks too.

I remember back in the day the big ginger guy, benjamin something or other was permabanned "pre-emptively" on much the same grounds as JimBob.  there was a big stink kicked up about how he hadn't broken any actual rules and he was re-instated.

Nowadays, seemingly it's common practice for people to be banned pre-emptively without actually breaking any rules.  The difference is that A) the posters have become institutionalised and are used to it so they don't complain and B) if people DO complain then the thread gets locked before itpicks up any steam.

The scary thing about RPGnet isn't the actual moderation, though it is arguably some of the worst anywhere on the internet, it's the attitudes of the posters to moderation.

If you look at it from a sociological perspective, it's actually quite similar to some of the stuff going on in America right now.  People become use to having their freedoms trampled on and they come to love the people that do the trampling.

The thread Balbinus started won't be interesting for the responses of the mods (they'll bring out the old platitudes about the spirit of the rules, the fact that it's a private site and so on), but rather the posts that uncritically "support them".

RPGnet is not a nice place fucked up by bad moderation... it's a fucked up place full stop.

What shits me are the people like Old Geezer who try to derail any critique of the moderation with inane jokes about being oppressed or mindless drivel intended to drag the thread off topic. It's clearly deliberate, and reminds me of nothing more than the old "four legs good, two legs bad" strategy from Animal Farm. Drowning out debate with their bleating, rather than trying to contribute to the discussion. Lalalala!

And what annoys me even more is that Kiero does exactly what people are accusing Jim Bob of and gets away with it. So instead of getting rid of the poster who hates gamers, we lose the guy who actually loves gaming. :(

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeSo instead of getting rid of the poster who hates gamers, we lose the guy who actually loves gaming. :(

To me, that's most indicative of what's wrong with that site.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeWhat shits me are the people like Old Geezer who try to derail any critique of the moderation with inane jokes about being oppressed or mindless drivel intended to drag the thread off topic.

  It's human nature.  Some people's reaction to the emergence of unaccountable authority with supreme power within their community is to try and ingratiate themselves.  Others want to topple it.  Others just want to move along to somewhere a little more accountable.

  Every authoritarian society in human history have had those types as Orwell knew full well.  You're exactly right with the 2 legs bad, 4 legs good reference.  Spot on.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeAnd what annoys me even more is that Kiero does exactly what people are accusing Jim Bob of and gets away with it.

What is Kiero doing that I am accused of? I didn't think I was accused of anything. "Passive-aggressive trolling" is just another way of saying, "I find you annoying," it means nothing at all.

Kiero should not be banned. But you should defnitely be able to ask what he's doing on a gamer site if he dislikes gamers...

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat is Kiero doing that I am accused of? I didn't think I was accused of anything. "Passive-aggressive trolling" is just another way of saying, "I find you annoying," it means nothing at all.

Kiero should not be banned. But you should defnitely be able to ask what he's doing on a gamer site if he dislikes gamers...

Oh, as annoying as I find him, I don't think he should be banned. But basically, I think he's guilty of what people accuse you of - of being provocative and using the rules as a shield while being careful to stay just within them. I don't think people should be banned for that, but it's very aggravating not to be able to respond or call him on it.

Quote from: Illegible Smudge...I think he's guilty of what people accuse you of - of being provocative and using the rules as a shield while being careful to stay just within them.

Ah, well, I don't think he does that, and neither have I. I don't like that we've stepped from, "you have not broken any rules, but you annoy me anyway," to "you're being a shit, and carefully doing it just within the rules."

It's not possible to express any opinion or ideas at all without "provoking" someone or other. But there's provoking to annoy, and provoking to stimulate discussion. If I post, "there's a high crime rate among blacks, they must be innately criminal or something," then I'm provoking to annoy; if I post, "there's a high crime rate among blacks, why is that?" then I'm provoking a discussion.  And provoking discussion is what we're supposed to be here for.

Kiero may be a Bitter Non-Gamer, but he provokes discussions by his posts, and while his own opinions may not be worth much, he helps bring forth the opinions of others, whose comments are interesting and informative.

That's the nature of a forum, of threads on this and that - maybe we think that the first guy posting is a dork, but whoever replies to him may be interesting and informative, or vice versa. It's a rare man who is so stupid he has nothing to teach me, and it's a rarer man still whose company is annoying I can't bear to be around him.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeI don't think people should be banned for that, but it's very aggravating not to be able to respond or call him on it.

There's always PM and emails. But be cautious - it might still be on the front page of Trouble Tickets, someone was recently banned for "personal attacks against a moderator [or maybe an admin, I forget] by email." I assume that was something serious like "u r a cunt!" but I don't know...

Quote from: JimBobOzAh, well, I don't think he does that, and neither have I. I don't like that we've stepped from, "you have not broken any rules, but you annoy me anyway," to "you're being a shit, and carefully doing it just within the rules."

I absolutely agree, and we're discussing 'rule 10' in TT right now.

QuoteIt's not possible to express any opinion or ideas at all without "provoking" someone or other. But there's provoking to annoy, and provoking to stimulate discussion. If I post, "there's a high crime rate among blacks, they must be innately criminal or something," then I'm provoking to annoy; if I post, "there's a high crime rate among blacks, why is that?" then I'm provoking a discussion.  And provoking discussion is what we're supposed to be here for.

Again, agreed, though I feel Kiero is the latter. I regard most of the threads he starts as thinly veiled attacks on traditional gamers and attempt to proselytise for Wushu. Now, I'd rather people be allowed to proselytise than ban people and curtail discussion, but it is annoying.

Quote from: droogFuck – somebody finally noticed!


RPG.net sure is getting proactive.

I too am amazed it took this long.

Edit: And the funny thing about Kiero is that he is TOTALLY a gamer obsessed with Star Wars and a resolutely trad top-down gaming style, but he has ridiculous superiority complex. It's like he hates porn but enjoys erotica, or hates pop but likes "serious" groups like U2 and REM, or that kind of self-deluding bull-shit. I'm amazed his "All gamers are losers" threads haven't garnered him a ban at some stage, or even a warning.

Ned

Quote from: RedFoxAhh, posters in the hands of an angry Mod.

Funny - and topical!

If you think that your participation and "advocacy" of this site didn't have anything to do with your ban, Jimbob, you're fooling yourself.  I mean shit, when they said "some other site" in your banning notice, what other fucking site do you think they were referring to?

Essentially, they banned you because you liked theRPGsite too much, and spoke too well about it on RPG.net.


RPGPundit

They banned him because he's undeniably a prick.  The issue is why, given that A) he didn't actually break any rules and B) is appreciated by many people who see past his being a prick, he's been removed from the RPGnet community with so little discussion.

Admittedly, the fact that he's partly out the door and is over here badmouthing what's going on over there maybe made their decision a little bit easier.

Either way, they're having a chinwag about it now.

Incidentally, if you want proof that Kiero was just being a shithead inciting trouble with his "who is monte cook"? comments, you can easily do a google search for "kiero" + "monte cook"; and come up with a plethora of RPG.net threads where kiero was active on, where Monte's name was mentioned.

Including this one (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=285306), where kiero specifically asks who Monte Cook is, and gets that answered, only two months ago.  So either Kiero has a very VERY poor memory, or he was specifically flamebaiting when he did the whole "who's monte cook"? thing.

RPGPundit

The reason stated is your baiting of Kiero when he asked who Monte Cook was.  The "Only gamers know about him."  It's an interesting thread.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThey banned him because he's undeniably a prick

Until relatively recently, that was largely the point of RPG.net.

That's an interesting point, Pundit.

Quote from: RPGPunditIncidentally, if you want proof that Kiero was just being a shithead inciting trouble with his "who is monte cook"? comments, you can easily do a google search for "kiero" + "monte cook"; and come up with a plethora of RPG.net threads where kiero was active on, where Monte's name was mentioned.

Including this one (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=285306), where kiero specifically asks who Monte Cook is, and gets that answered, only two months ago.  So either Kiero has a very VERY poor memory, or he was specifically flamebaiting when he did the whole "who's monte cook"? thing.

RPGPundit

No doubt, if everyone who was a prick earned a banning, it'd be a very empty board.  Just a few folks with spam for comfort.

There is a double standard at work in this case.  Seriously, Kiero is just as passive-agressive and snarky, and his posts are almost entirely composed of negative sentiment, to boot. "I hate X," "I loathe people who do Y" are pretty much his stock openings to any post.

Bah, it serves no purpose to just pile on here.  Not that they'll pay me any mind, but I'll be happy to drop a note to the admins on JimBob's behalf.

Quote from: Erik BoielleUntil relatively recently, that was largely the point of RPG.net.

  It's more that their definition of who is a prick has become more and more expansive over the years and the treatment of said pricks has become less tolerant.

  So you can post the same way you've ever posted and all of a sudden you get banned despite there being no discussion about your doing wrong.  RPGnet's moderation policy dictates the community's values and where once you were welcome, suddenly you're not and you have no say in why or how that has happened.

  I say this as someone who is a self-confessed prick on the internet at least half the time.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeWhat shits me are the people like Old Geezer who try to derail any critique of the moderation with inane jokes about being oppressed or mindless drivel intended to drag the thread off topic. It's clearly deliberate, and reminds me of nothing more than the old "four legs good, two legs bad" strategy from Animal Farm. Drowning out debate with their bleating, rather than trying to contribute to the discussion. Lalalala!

Slagging Old Geezer is like slagging on my drunken racist asshole uncle.  He may be in the wrong but an old leopard like that isn't going to change his spots for anyone.  Not that the Geezer is a drunk or racist.  Whether he's an asshole or not I'll leave up to others.

Though it is strange to see an old red support the status quo on site where ownership determines authority.  *shrug*

Quote from: JBOtherpgsite's forums are very friendly to all sorts of approaches to gaming, but they are very unfriendly to women and homosexuals.

I've started a new thread about this in the help desk. (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46610)

Quote from: KenHRThere is a double standard at work in this case.

I'm sorry, but no.  There's no double-standard at work here.  JimBob was banned because the mods didn't like him.  Obviously, they don't dislike Kiero enough to ban him.

Simple as that.

I think it comes down to bad-mouthing somewhere on another forum. People don't just read one forum, even if they aren't members of others. Don't expect people from rpg.net not to read here, so if you're critical here, it will colour their opinions of your posts over there. Simple as that, i think.

I am enjoying that thread.  I love the examples of JimBob's crimes.

It's an amazing show of weakness on the part of the RPG.net mod-staff and administrators. This is the sort of thing I'd expect a self-reflective person to reconsider.

-Marco

My two cents as posted:

QuoteIt's true JimBob has had and did have moments where he was a pain in the neck, starting as far back as when he was ChefKyle, but I want to ask a question, it's more rhetorical than anything, just food for thought that I know I'll be chewing over:

What will the quality of general RPG discussion be like if every differing opinion or every ounce of passion is sucessfully squeezed out through rules and moderation? While merely disagreeing is not a banable offense, the very personalities that drive these differences can occasionally get heated or even snarky. Do those occasional feelings really make these small talks about games any less valid or more importantly, inherently offensive to the majority of posters and readers?

Hm.

IIRC, the mods have repeatedly asserted that they respond to reports. If something doesn't get reported it doesn't get moderated (cos they don't know about it). If someone attracts a lot of reports without breaking the rules then they begin to consider whether that person is really making a positive contribution to the forum. So, I think there's more going on than "we don't like so-and-so!"

Ned

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI am enjoying that thread.  I love the examples of JimBob's crimes.

One from 2004.

Still at it in Trouble Tickets.  Same pattern of justification and challenge made for you as was done for Amado, Reddest and damn near every other well-known poster smacked with the Ban Stick.  Lots of talking, little useful argumentation, no change in position worth noting.

JimBob was ChefKyle?  I don't think I knew that.

Quote from: TonyLBThat is sad, JimBob, and I (like you) find it a bit inexplicable.

The idea that they're banning you forever based on how they read your tone is ... wacky.

Now I have to go over and check whether I can still post or not.  I certainly know that there are mods who don't like the tone they hear when they read my posts.

Yeah.

I... didn't like you getting temp-banned for calling me stupid. I sent a PM to the mods asking me if there's a sword I don't know about hanging by a thread I haven't noticed up there...

Until I get some clarity (which I know I'm not entitled to and which I don't actually expect), I think I'm safer doing RPG.net in read-only mode.

A world where -E. and TonyLB couldn't argue isn't one I want to live in!

Cheers,
-E.

A former RPG.Net regular myself, and once a big fan of the site, I have decided to leave it alone so it can get exactly what it wants.

Frankly, Jim Bob, when I first started posting here you managed to piss me off right off the bat.  The whole "Go Play" thing, remember?  Dude, you were a dick to me then, and although I have gotten over it, I haven't forgotten it.

But to ban you for that kind of thing?  No way.  I mighta wanted to punch you, but not ban you.  I'd rather have you around to see if you say something useful or interesting.

RPG.Net may choose its bedclothes without me.  I'll sleep on the couch.

This is why advertising theRPGsite is so important; there is a huge legion of posters on RPG.net who are just as unsatisfied with current hijinks as people like you all have been.  They need to have someone counteract the lies that people like "nick the lemming" have come up with that we are a gang of sexist racist homophobes etc. etc., that nothing good happens here.  

I'm sure a lot of people who have heard the Swine-propaganda would probably be very shocked if they found out that Jrients or Dr.Rotwang or even Levi are regular posters here. And for a lot of them, it would be far more appealing to them than the Tangency-ghetto RPG.net has become.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is why advertising theRPGsite is so important; there is a huge legion of posters on RPG.net who are just as unsatisfied with current hijinks as people like you all have been.  They need to have someone counteract the lies that people like "nick the lemming" have come up with that we are a gang of sexist racist homophobes etc. etc., that nothing good happens here.  

I'm sure a lot of people who have heard the Swine-propaganda would probably be very shocked if they found out that Jrients or Dr.Rotwang or even Levi are regular posters here. And for a lot of them, it would be far more appealing to them than the Tangency-ghetto RPG.net has become.

RPGPundit

Well I know I came here directly from the snide Mod post on rpg.net referencing this site, curious to see what the hubbub was about.

I stayed because this place is cool, and there's actual good gaming discussion to be had here.  I know we wouldn't have the likes of Levi here if this was the stink-hole that certain folks on the purple site would have had me believe it is.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyI too am amazed it took this long.

Edit: And the funny thing about Kiero is that he is TOTALLY a gamer obsessed with Star Wars and a resolutely trad top-down gaming style, but he has ridiculous superiority complex. It's like he hates porn but enjoys erotica, or hates pop but likes "serious" groups like U2 and REM, or that kind of self-deluding bull-shit. I'm amazed his "All gamers are losers" threads haven't garnered him a ban at some stage, or even a warning.

Ned

This is because RPGnet hates gamers.  

I, during my time there, on countless occasion, raised the issue quite vocally, that the one thing you could attack with reckless abandon, was gamers.  

I could go on there and start swearing loudly about how all gamers are a bunch of unwashed diseased jerks, and how I am infintely superior to all of them, etc., etc. and get away from it completely.  And many, many people have done that very thing.  

And I too, raised similar questions to JB's in response:  If you hate gamers so much, what the fuck are you doing on a gaming site?

Quote from: J ArcaneThis is because RPGnet hates gamers.  

RPG.net doesn't hate anything.  It's a large collection of people with very different ideas.  That criticism of gamers, as a group, is allowed is likely because its viewed as commentary on RPG culture which is a completely worthwhile topic.

It's simple to dislike members of a group broadly but like specific members of that group.  Disliking RPG.net broadly, for example, but liking many members of the site seems like a common feeling here.

Ack, why do I let this crap get to me.

I'm movin' on, getting some lunch with the Missus and help her shop for sweater while I think of a useful thing to say on the general game page. I think it's for the better if we all do that instead of whinging about a place that has no room for my interests anymore.

-Remember it's about the gaming love.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonRPG.net doesn't hate anything.  It's a large collection of people with very different ideas.  That criticism of gamers, as a group, is allowed is likely because its viewed as commentary on RPG culture which is a completely worthwhile topic.

It's simple to dislike members of a group broadly but like specific members of that group.  Disliking RPG.net broadly, for example, but liking many members of the site seems like a common feeling here.

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

There has been a definite common thread of "I'm better than all those other filthy gamers" running through RPGnet for as long as I've been there, and there has been forums.  It is the only topic one can "group attack" with reckless abandon without consequence.

And I think the most damning evidence is when you can start a thread with a innocuous opener like "I like gamers", and it offends people deeply and spins into one of Open's all time biggest flamewars.

I will modify my statement to cleanse hyperbole, for your sake, however.

A very vast number of RPGnet's posters, including some of it's moderators, hate gamers.

Even if this were true (and I agree that it is among a small but vocal number of RP Open folk), so what?  I post on law sites, my friends are lawyers and law students, but I dislike lawyers as a group and don't care to be around them.  Hell, I feel the same way about human beings generally I think.

The "I like gamers" thread was meant to cause problems.  It wasn't started in a vacuum, it was started to provoke people.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonEven if this were true (and I agree that it is among a small but vocal number of RP Open folk), so what?  I post on law sites, my friends are lawyers and law students, but I dislike lawyers as a group and don't care to be around them.  Hell, I feel the same way about human beings generally I think.

The "I like gamers" thread was meant to cause problems.  It wasn't started in a vacuum, it was started to provoke people.

You're missing the point, regarding that thread.

Suggesting that you like gamers, on an RPG site, shouldn't be a controversy.  If anything, it should be the other way around.  It may have been started specifically for the sake of controversy (I don't personally know, I'm not JimBob), but the fact remains that it should even be a controversial statement.

I'd bet money if you went on your lawyer sites and started making posts about how all lawyers were verminous scum, you wouldn't get away with it for very long.

Quote from: J ArcaneSuggesting that you like gamers, on an RPG site, shouldn't be a controversy.  If anything, it should be the other way around.  It may have been started specifically for the sake of controversy (I don't personally know, I'm not JimBob), but the fact remains that it should even be a controversial statement.

You're taking that thread completely out of the context it was generated in.  That thread was a big middle finger to a lot of the folk who posted in Open, that was the only purpose it served.  There's a big difference between expressing "I like gamers" in a vacuum and making a post meant to taunt and incite the other posters.

In any event, I have a tough time coming up with anything the "vast majority" of RPG.net users like except basic human desires.  Tangency is strongly left leaning.  RP Open favors indie games but still has a love for D&D, White Wolf products, and mainstream stuff.  I get a little stuck on generalities after that.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonYou're taking that thread completely out of the context it was generated in.  That thread was a big middle finger to a lot of the folk who posted in Open, that was the only purpose it served.  There's a big difference between expressing "I like gamers" in a vacuum and making a post meant to taunt and incite the other posters.

The only reason that could possibly be true is that RPGNet, in general, has a strong streak of gamer - and game - hate. It has always been there, and it's been getting stronger in the last year. It's one of the reasons I spend far more time here than there.

-clash

Quote from: RedFoxI know we wouldn't have the likes of Levi here if this was the stink-hole that certain folks on the purple site would have had me believe it is.

Since I've been invoked in this thread a few times, and I am a mod over on RPGnet, I'll respond to this, very simply.

RPGnet is becoming - and has been for a while now - a certain kind of place.  I like the place that it's become.  I think that the online RPG community needs something what RPGnet has become.

The RPGsite is also becoming a specific - and very different - kind of place.  I like it, too.  It's good to have a place where I can look at the the next guy and call him a dipshit if I think he is one.

And thi one's for JimBob, personally...

Quote from: Big PurpleDear Jim;

I'm leaving you.  I know, this might come as a big of a shock, but the truth is, I'm not the forum you used to know.  I want to be more welcoming to more people, and sometimes you get in the way of that - too often.  I'm sure you can remember the signs; some of the fights we've had, some of the moments where we just didn't understand each other.

It's not that I don't love you anymore.  It's just that we're not right together.  It's not you, darling.  It's me.  I've changed, and I like who I am now.

No longer yours;

Big Purple.

Fuck you.

I want my site back.

Yknow. No offence but Who precisely decided to start disposing of people whose face no longer fits?

Levi, thats funny. Cause over at RPGnet I'm worried about stepping in the dog doo hidden in the long grass. I didn't go to RPGnet because I could be banal and 'safe' from other posters, or protected, or avenged. I went for the content of the discourse.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenRPGnet is becoming - and has been for a while now - a certain kind of place.  I like the place that it's become.  I think that the online RPG community needs something what RPGnet has become

I have it on good authority that the mods at RPG.net haven't heard of me and that I'm not in any danger of being banned for having unpopular opinions on Tangency and Open.

Even so, banning JimBob for what, I can only assume, was having an unpopular opinion makes it pretty clear that kind of thing isn't welcome there. I've been told, point blank, by various (non-mod) posters that my point of view is unpopular and unwelcome.

Message recieved -- I'll certainly try to limit myself to threads and topics where I agree with the predominant point of view.

I assume that kind of chilling effect is exactly what was intended?

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.I've been told, point blank, by various (non-mod) posters that my point of view is unpopular and unwelcome.

Would you mind elaborating on this point a little more?  I'm interested in what point of view you feel couldn't be expressed at RPG.net.

What can you expect from rpg.net? Some time ago commissar cessna openly said that whether or not something was true didn't matter, all that mattered was that it was deemed 'offensive' by the mods. When someone (me) suggested that peoploe use their ILs and not read posts by people that said true things that offended them, he copped a totally commie approach and said "Just don't read it just doesn't cut it."

So it doesn't matter if what you say is true or not, true doesn't matter, all that matters is that someone in power doesn't like it.

Just like stalin's russia, or any other fascist regime.

I just hope someday someone commissar cessna has pulled some shit on runs into him at a convention...

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you think that your participation and "advocacy" of this site didn't have anything to do with your ban, Jimbob, you're fooling yourself.

My feeling is that some of the mods disliked and wanted to ban me, while others would have said, "but that's not fair," and the first lot replied, "well, at least he has some other site to go to." I don't think advocacy of this site would be an issue in their original banning decision as a cause, it just made them feel better about it.

I say that because of the way I advocated for it. It's much like how when I went to #rpgnet, roleplaying conversations were always drifting into politics, religion, or sex, or using profanity - all of which roleplaying conversations tend to do a lot! - so I started #tangency. Then, whenever that topic or swearing came up, before the op shut the conversation down, I'd say, "take it to #tangency, we can continue it there." So, they had a kind of conversation they didn't like, and I tried to divert people towards a place where they could have that kind of conversation - so as to avoid trouble in the original place.

It's much the same here. If I saw someone getting riled up, and all snarky towards another poster, I knew the mods would be after them soon. So I'd suggest they come here, where that tone was, if not welcomed, at least acceptable. I was just suggesting a place where they might be more comfortable, and at the same time encouraging them to follow the rpg.net rules and guidelines.

Trying to defuse tension and give it an outlet, and suggesting people follow the site's rules - I don't see why that would be considered a bad thing.

I do think that calling me a prick is unfair and harsh. Nonetheless, the point remains that you could be happily posting for years, then their definition of bad posting changes, and you're banned. From the time Eric Brennan gave me the Minefield Warning - "you cause trouble, I can't say exactly how, but keep it up and you'll be banned" - I asked for guidance on how to improve my posting style so as not to cause trouble; the PMs and emails were ignored.

I understand that as forums grow and times change, acceptable or desired behaviour changes, too. But people need to be given guidance on how to adapt to that change.

I disagree that Kiero is some sort of prick, or deserving of banning - he's even less deserving of banning than me. Obviously his "Who's Monte Cook?" was just his way of saying, "Who's Monte Cook to me?" which is a fair thing to say. We can mock him for being a Bitter Non-Gamer, but what he says stimulates interesting discussion, and he is not deserving of this scorn he's being given.

Quote from: One Horse TownI think it comes down to bad-mouthing somewhere on another forum. People don't just read one forum, even if they aren't members of others. Don't expect people from rpg.net not to read here, so if you're critical here, it will colour their opinions of your posts over there. Simple as that, i think.

I don't know who I'm supposed to have badmouthed, except rpg.net as a whole. I should like to point out I've always defended the value of rpg.net against criticisms from RPGPundit. Of course, I have said that the place is not perfect, just good - but if saying that something is "imperfect" is "badmouthing" then almost everyone must be "badmouthing" almost everyone else.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI am enjoying that thread. I love the examples of JimBob's crimes.

I wish I could see that thread :(

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Frankly, Jim Bob, when I first started posting here you managed to piss me off right off the bat. The whole "Go Play" thing, remember? Dude, you were a dick to me then, and although I have gotten over it, I haven't forgotten it.

But to ban you for that kind of thing? No way. I mighta wanted to punch you, but not ban you. I'd rather have you around to see if you say something useful or interesting.

Well, if I caused you actual offence, then I apologise unreservedly. Like most people, I tend to assume that others are like me - I rarely take offence from words on a screen directed to me personally. To me, a forum is like a big shit-talking session between a bunch of mates.

But note that I didn't post like that on rpg.net. I try to follow the rules and style of each forum I'm in.

Quote from: C.W. RichesonThe "I like gamers" thread was meant to cause problems. It wasn't started in a vacuum, it was started to provoke people.

Dear God, is that thread being brought up as an example of how bad for the site I am? An attempt to bring positive thoughts and feelings into the forum is an example of being "bad for the site in general"? You're not serious, surely?

Levi, you "Dear JimBob" letter is bullshit, and we both know it. I get in the way of welcoming new people? Which new people? "I like gamers", "How to talk to your game group," "Why game groups fuck up," "Getting a game group and keeping it," yeah, that shit's going to scare off millions! But the cosplay threads? The "why don't chicks like nice guys" threads? Porn Monday? "I hate my game group"? Oh, yeah, heaps welcoming to a wide diversity of people those are. :rolleyes:

Quote from: JimBobOzLevi, your "Dear JimBob" letter is bullshit

Shameful example of avoiding personal responsibility if you ask me.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonWould you mind elaborating on this point a little more?  I'm interested in what point of view you feel couldn't be expressed at RPG.net.

What point of view I feel couldn't be expressed at RPG.net?

Hmm... I'll have to think about that. But I suspect you're asking, "What points of view have you presented where other posters told you you weren't welcome."

Those would be:

1) A patriotic view of the United States of America (Tangency)
2) A negative view of GNS/TBM theory

Again: I have no idea why they banned JimBob -- but I can only assume that part of it had to do with his stance on theory ("I like gamers") and so on.

While I have an astronomically lower profile (they've never heard of me), I... share some of the same views.

I think JB's banning was an unambiguous statement by the mods: If your point of view is unpopular and causes contraversy, you'll get moderated off the board.

I'd rather not be banned, so I'll be... limiting my expression of views I think might be contraversial.

This is pretty much what they were looking for, no?

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.Cheers,
-E.

For what it's worth, E, I share some of the same views.  Tangency can be a little crazy for me at times.  When my views are the clear minority I usually just bow out of the conversation.  I can express my opinions, no problemo, but I am likely to go up against a lot of folk who strongly disagree.  That's not unusual, as web forums generally tend a bit more to the left imo.  So I can certainly identify with your apprehension there.

As to criticizing GNS, I think you would find you're in good company on that.  A lot of RP Open folk don't care for GNS and are happy to talk about why.  That's not to say they don't like theory generally, just that they think GNS isn't very good/helpful theory.  Nevertheless, someone in each forum will disagree with just about anything that can be stated.

In any event, should you do decide you'd like to give posting at RPG.net another try feel free to PM me whenever you start a new discussion thread.  I'd be happy to join in, and I really try to not put down the people I chat with.

In any event, thanks for sharing and enjoy theRPGsite! :)

Quote from: C.W.RichesonFor what it's worth, E, I share some of the same views.  Tangency can be a little crazy for me at times.  When my views are the clear minority I usually just bow out of the conversation.  I can express my opinions, no problemo, but I am likely to go up against a lot of folk who strongly disagree.  That's not unusual, as web forums generally tend a bit more to the left imo.  So I can certainly identify with your apprehension there.

As to criticizing GNS, I think you would find you're in good company on that.  A lot of RP Open folk don't care for GNS and are happy to talk about why.  That's not to say they don't like theory generally, just that they think GNS isn't very good/helpful theory.  Nevertheless, someone in each forum will disagree with just about anything that can be stated.

In any event, should you do decide you'd like to give posting at RPG.net another try feel free to PM me whenever you start a new discussion thread.  I'd be happy to join in, and I really try to not put down the people I chat with.

In any event, thanks for sharing and enjoy theRPGsite! :)

Thanks!

I'm not leaving the site or anything -- and I'm not even saying, "I'll never post in a GNS thread or a Political thread" -- but in many cases I've felt like posting because I thought a dissenting point of view would be useful, even if contraversial.

That sort of thing is unwelcome (I think the RPG.net mods are a bit like the FCC -- they get involved when someone complains, and then take action to quiet the complaints. Contraversy is unwelcome).

Anything else would mean being a poor guest.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat's surprised me is that a number of people have emailed, or PMed me on this or other sites, saying that they think it's a bad ban, but they daren't say anything publicly. It's not "millions of lurkers support me in email," about half a dozen - but I honestly wouldn't have expected even that many to notice I was banned, or care, let alone bother to email.

I'm surprised people dare not say things publicly.

FWIW, I was somewhat surprised to see you permabanned, but I wasn't surprised that you were banned. You state your opinions forcefully, and are often blunt in your language. Just as the anonymous nature of the net means many people feel free to be offensive in a way they wouldn't be face-to-face, it also allows people to be much more sensitive than they would be if they could talk to you in person. That, plus the ease with which one can push the "I'm outraged by this post" button, makes your writing style high-risk in an environment  like RPGnet, where moderation is active and aggressive towards anything that could see taken as an attack.

I'm sorry to see you go, because I find your posts generally thoughtful, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions.

As for those who feel afraid to speak their mind, I'm damned if I can see why. At worst all they'll lose is access to a web forum, and so far as I can see the mods haven't been banning people for arguing against bans.

Quote from: C.W.Richeson[E]njoy theRPGsite! :)

I invite you to do the same.  I welcome any influx of new blood, preferably folks I won't always agree with.

Take off your shoes, sit a spell!

Email from admin, unsigned,

Quote from: rpg.net adminJimBob-

We've given you chance after chance, warning after warning.  And each time, you've only become more abusive and nasty - to the staff, to the other users, to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I just can't see how I can let you back on rpg.net under those circumstances.  This has been going on for YEARS, ever since you were ChefKyle.

Sorry, JimBob, you earned the ban.

I must have missed the profusion of warnings... Abusive to the staff and other users? Ah yes, like when I was suspended for personal attacks against Cessna and... oh hang on, that didn't happen.

I don't think it was "unpopular opinions" or any shit like that. I think they just plain didn't like me.

*shrug*

Quote from: RupertAt worst all they'll lose is access to a web forum.

How about you post to a forum for most of a decade, checking it almost every day, and then I arbitrarily ban you because I don't like the way you look?

I'm sure you'd be fine with it.

Quote from: JimBobOzWell, if I caused you actual offence, then I apologise unreservedly. Like most people, I tend to assume that others are like me - I rarely take offence from words on a screen directed to me personally. To me, a forum is like a big shit-talking session between a bunch of mates.

It's cool.  I'm getting used to you and I see you're not like that all the time.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHow about you post to a forum for most of a decade, checking it almost every day, and then I arbitrarily ban you because I don't like the way you look?

I'm sure you'd be fine with it.

Yeah.  I've only been on RPG.net for two years, but if I lost access I would feel horrid.  Like all the database entries, reviews, posts, PMs, trades, and everything else - all that good will and history with the site - was just ripped away.

Despite what some folk say "it's just a webforum," "we just talk about RPGs", etc., it's a big deal.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't think it was "unpopular opinions" or any shit like that. I think they just plain didn't like me.

*shrug*

At least according to them it wasn't arbitrary. At least you earned it! :D

-It's usually harder to appreciate the things that were just given to you, as the saying goes.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenSince I've been invoked in this thread a few times, and I am a mod over on RPGnet, I'll respond to this, very simply.

Umm, okay.  That's not why I personally invoked you, though.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't think it was "unpopular opinions" or any shit like that. I think they just plain didn't like me.

*shrug*

The reason Curt gives in the TT thread that you cannot read at the moment (and derailed into a modpile about TheRPGSite) is that you are a "negative influence."

Well a What do you want from the mods? thread has been started. You, know what really bothers me - okay it really doesn't, but if I wanted to work up some outrage, this would be it -  is that when Curt was temp banned or whatever and was brought back and than made a mod.

One of the reasons given was that he really cared about the site. I haven't seen any real problems with Curt's modding, but really, this was a guy, who was one of the more toxic posters around but he was liked.

Now, I don't forsee a time when I will ever be banned for anything I will ever say - yeah, I'm that bland - but shit like this really bothers me. I don't mind not being part of the cool kids, but I sure as hell, don't want to worry about being banned by them.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWell a What do you want from the mods? thread has been started. You, know what really bothers me - okay it really doesn't, but if I wanted to work up some outrage, this would be it -  is that when Curt was temp banned or whatever and was brought back and than made a mod.

One of the reasons given was that he really cared about the site. I haven't seen any real problems with Curt's modding, but really, this was a guy, who was one of the more toxic posters around but he was liked.

Now, I don't forsee a time when I will ever be banned for anything I will ever say - yeah, I'm that bland - but shit like this really bothers me. I don't mind not being part of the cool kids, but I sure as hell, don't want to worry about being banned by them.

Regards,
David R

Because Levi isn't here, I think I'll step in to mention something folks might not know.

I was a Mod for a fairly sizeable online gaming board, and I've got to say...  Modding isn't a cool kids club or a system of patronage.  It's stressful, thankless work.  By the very nature of the job you have to sift through reams and reams of data and be the badguy.  Even if you do your job well, you're going to catch shit day in and day out.  Maintaining perspective in that position is not easy.

I disagree with policy at rpg.net regularly, but I have to keep in mind that these people are ultimately working from a selfless and difficult position.  It doesn't excuse them their snide attitudes, foibles, or mistakes.  But it does mean that I ultimately respect what they're doing.

So no, Curt isn't a sell-out to the "cool kids club."

Quote from: JamesVAt least according to them it wasn't arbitrary. At least you earned it! :D

Yeah, I got sent a copy of the TT thread. I'm curious about this mountain of warnings and suspensions I had, I must have been drunk and missed them or some shit. And that Nick the Lemming saying I'd said racist and sexist things? I never received a single warning or suspension for anything racist or sexist. But notice that goes unchallenged by the mods. That's fucking insulting. Call me a prick if you like, but a racist or sexist prick? No.

I guess they were discussing it a lot backstage, but forgot to tell me.

Yes, I once had a "Chef Kyle" account. Then I copped a webstalker, and made new forum accounts and emails, hoping that the minor barrier of new and more common names to google would put him off; it worked. I'd PMed Cessna about the webstalker, but he never replied. This was not "reinventing" myself or any shit like that.

Quote from: David ROne of the reasons given was that he really cared about the site. I haven't seen any real problems with Curt's modding, but really, this was a guy, who was one of the more toxic posters around but he was liked.

I care about the site, too. How many times have I defended it from the attacks of RPGPundit and the like? Does that mean that I'll be made a mod? :rolleyes:

Curt is room-mates with, if I recall correctly, alexandra2k and Voice of Issac. If you're room-mates with an admin or mod, it's kinda hard to have you permabanned. The IP ban would take out your own mods. That said, I think Curt has been an excellent mod, if a little (ironically) over-sensitive to profanity.

Quote from: RedFox[T]hese people are ultimately working from a selfless and difficult position.

I'm not going to contend that modding is an easy, rewarding job.  That's something we can all agree on.  At the same time, it's not some honorable quest undertaken for the Good of All.  

Mods sign on to sweep up the messes of forum goons.  Forgive me if I don't shed a tear for their lost evenings and weekends.

Quote from: fonkaygarryI'm not going to contend that modding is an easy, rewarding job.  That's something we can all agree on.  At the same time, it's not some honorable quest undertaken for the Good of All.  

Mods sign on to sweep up the messes of forum goons.  Forgive me if I don't shed a tear for their lost evenings and weekends.

I'm not saying you should be weeping in your cheerios, man.  Just keeping in mind that these are volunteers doing unpleasant work that makes them hated.

That should reveal two things:

• They're not having fun.
• They're prone to getting alienated and spiteful.

That means that certain conspiracy theories concerning Mods are more realistic than others.

Quote from: RedFoxSo no, Curt isn't a sell-out to the "cool kids club."

Didn't say he was a sell out. Didn't say that he was not fair in his job. Never said that I thought modding was an easy job.

My point was, one of the reasons given for raising Curt to mod status was that he cared for the site. (My use of the term cool kids was not very useful). This reason I suppose is only for people who are liked, never mind if their posting history was often abrasive...the important thing, was that the folks in charge or at least a good number of them liked you.

And with this in mind, no JimBob, I don't think you would be offered a mod position...I know the signs of doom are all around, Monte doing WoD, the Dems gaining control of congress, but still I don't think that will ever happen..they just don't dig your style..

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThis reason I suppose is only for people who are liked, never mind if their posting history was often abrasive...the important thing, was that the folks in charge or at least a good number of them liked you.

But being roomies with an admin and a mod helps :p

The biggest criteria for a Mod appointment, in my experience, is (aside from copious amounts of spare time with which to do the work) trust.  You're giving someone authority in your name.  So you've got to be able to trust that they'll do the work in a way that won't make you look like shit.

So JimBob's probably spot on in that him being a roommate probably didn't hurt.  ;)

Quote from: JimBobOzLevi, you "Dear JimBob" letter is bullshit, and we both know it.

We do?  Or rather, I do?

How interesting, that I know something I don't believe.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWe do?  Or rather, I do?

How interesting, that I know something I don't believe.

Right, so its the Site that has changed. Nothing you can do about it. Its those sites you know. What can you do when they change?

Call a spade a spade man - whose idea was it to start getting rid of undesirables to clean the place up?

Quote from: Erik BoielleRight, so its the Site that has changed. Nothing you can do about it. Its those sites you know. What can you do when they change?

Help it, fight it, or go elsewhere.

If there are a lot of people that don't enjoy or fit with what one site is becoming, they'll pick up stakes and move on.  Or be moved along.  

I mean, fuck, If you honestly believe that RPGnet is becoming something you can't stand (even more so than when you left), and that this is proof, then why aren't you celebrating?  

Because if there really are a large number of people in agreement with you, some of them may very well choose to come here as a result.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHelp it, fight it, or go elsewhere.

If there are a lot of people that don't enjoy or fit with what one site is becoming, they'll pick up stakes and move on.  Or be moved along.  

I mean, fuck, If you honestly believe that RPGnet is becoming something you can't stand (even more so than when you left), and that this is proof, then why aren't you celebrating?  

Because if there really are a large number of people in agreement with you, some of them may very well choose to come here as a result.

'The Site' isn't becoming anything. THE MODERATION POLICY HAS CHANGED.

Who made the decision to change it? Why do YOU want to change it. What do YOU hope to achieve.

Who asked YOU.

QuoteHelp it, fight it

Anyway, I can't. You banned me. Broadly for doing the same thing I have for seven years.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWho made the decision to change it?

Thousands of reports, dozens of discussions with users, and hundreds of moderator discussions, on various topics.  At least some of which is going on, all the damn time, in a constant flow.

I do not think that your apparent mental image of how it works maps well to the reality.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThousands of reports, dozens of discussions with users, and hundreds of moderator discussions, on various topics.  At least some of which is going on, all the damn time, in a constant flow.

I do not think that your apparent mental image of how it works maps well to the reality.

Fuck em. I was there first. Find their own damn site.

And I must have missed the vote...

Quote from: Erik BoielleFuck em. I was there first.

No.  The owners were.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNo.  The owners were.

So why not say that? Why hide behind 'The Site Is Becoming' instead of 'We, meaning X would rather the site was this instead of what it always has been'.

And I'd still like an apology for being shabbily dumped.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHelp it, fight it, or go elsewhere.

I was trying to help it, by posting about roleplaying games, about game groups, in an interesting or at least amusing way. I replied to others' talk, asked questions, and so on. I promoted rpg.net at other sites, and defended it from unfair criticism.

I was banned.

rpg.net is a good site. It is a good site because of the contributions of its posters - such as me. Which is not to say that I was an important poster. With 31,000+ registered members, even if I were some kind of roleplaying genius, I'd be easily replaceable; given that I'm just a talkative gamer, even more replaceable.

Still, an active, enthusiastic, and at least occasionally amusing and interesting poster, who talked about the supposed topic of the site, was banned. And not for anything concrete; indeed, some of it is outright lies - Nick the Lemming says I posted sexist and racist things, and this is not denied by the mods. Other things referred to are quite literally years ago. If we're going to refer to things which happened years ago, well then Curt should be banned again, and Darren MacLennan; which would of course be absurd.

Undoubtedly rpg.net will survive, and prosper; but this is not because of, rather despite, the moderation. With such a mass of posters, it's hard to fail.

Active and enthusiastic posters get banned - unless they're mostly Tangency Open, of course. Levi, you have previously expressed concern at this sort of thing. If you feel a debt of loyalty to the other mods, I suggest instead silence as a response to all this, rather than saying these things. If you genuinely believe my presence was overall bad for the site, this would be a reversal of things you've said previously. People can, of course, change their minds - but I'd be surprised, since I am much the same as I was some months ago when you praised my contributions to rpg.net, and roleplaying conversations in general.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo why not say that? Why hide behind 'The Site Is Becoming' instead of 'We, meaning X' would rather the site was this instead of what it always has been.

And I'd still like an apology for being shabbily dumped.

Because to me, it's bloody obvious that the owners approve of current moderation.  And it's obvious why - because current moderation there does flow directly from users to reports to policy to action and back again.  No, it's not a democracy.  But it is a process.

I doubt an apology from the community and moderators of RPGnet is ever going to be forthcoming.  But, for what it's worth, I personally enjoy your posts (though I really don't think you'd fit with the current RPGnet).

Quote from: JimBobOzIf you genuinely believe my presence was overall bad for the site, this would be a reversal of things you've said previously. People can, of course, change their minds - but I'd be surprised, since I am much the same as I was some months ago when you praised my contributions to rpg.net, and roleplaying conversations in general.

When I praise your contributions to general discussion of roleplaying, I'm not joking.  I never was.  But when I try to reconcile those contributions, and the way that you defend them, with the RPGnet community as a whole, I have this huge disconnect.

I've been tempted, many times, to respond to your stuff with the phrase:

"This is some pretty solid stuff.  But why the fuck are you posting it here?  It doesn't belong here, and will cause more aggravation than enlightenment."

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhen I praise your contributions to general discussion of roleplaying, I'm not joking.  I never was.  But when I try to reconcile those contributions, and the way that you defend them, with the RPGnet community as a whole, I have this huge disconnect.

I've been tempted, many times, to respond to your stuff with the phrase:

"This is some pretty solid stuff.  But why the fuck are you posting it here?  It doesn't belong here, and will cause more aggravation than enlightenment."

Why the hell shouldn't they belong there?

Seriously, JB's posts were some of the most practical advice I think I ever saw on the site.  Simple, straightforward, common sense stuff.

You're saying there's no room on RPGnet for "How to find a game group?"  That you honestly wonder why such advice should be posted on a site with a name like "RPGnet"?

If that's the case, then what the fuck good is RPGnet anyway?  What purpose is it left to accomplish?  Endless passive aggressive flamewars about Forge theory and Exalted?

Your post baffles me, and I guess explains why I so rarely used RPOpen when I was still a poster there.  If practical advice of that nature is not welcome there, then I can't help but feel the site is effectively a useless waste of time.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBut when I try to reconcile those contributions, and the way that you defend them, with the RPGnet community as a whole, I have this huge disconnect.

Whereas, say, GNS thread do no cause that disconnect? Were we reading the same rpg.net?!

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"This is some pretty solid stuff.  But why the fuck are you posting it here?  It doesn't belong here, and will cause more aggravation than enlightenment."

Let's see if any of the threads I started "belong" on rpg.net.

GMing Advice (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=143265) (1 reply, fizzle)
How much have you spent on rpgs this year? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=158588) (46 replies)
Social vs Combat Resolution (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=160783) (93)
e-books, a solution, not a problem (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=166851)
Why you shouldn't MUSH (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=169996) (humour thread, 88 replies)
Fresh Blood! Blood! Makin' new gamers (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=172803) (43)
Elements of a campaign (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=182653) (fizzle, 9)
Change vs Improvement in characters (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=204210) (47)
Of course, [Theory] Cheetoism (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=250660) (147)
And let's not forget the thread I posted, my Last Post on rpg.net, How game groups talk to each-other (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=297222) about game session post-mortems and the like.
And so on and so forth (http://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3&page=647&pp=50&sort=postusername&order=asc&daysprune=-1).

I dunno, but those all look like roleplaying topics to me.

About 60 threads started in Tabletop Roleplaying Open, with an average of about 40 replies each. Yeah, no-one had any idea what the fuck I was talking about, I was totally out of touch with the THROBBING PULSE of rpg.net. That's why they kept replying and responding. I guess they were just humouring the poor crazy guy.

Yeah, heaps of aggravation there. I thought we were having conversations, but nope, apparently not. Everyone was crying inside. We only thought we were having fun. You been drinking the Forger Kool-Aid or something?

Sorry, man, but I'm not interested in being your personal outlet for aggravation.  I was interested in trying to show you where the problem came from.

But I'm not going to play kick-toy for you.

Quote from: J ArcaneWhy the hell shouldn't they belong there?

Seriously, JB's posts were some of the most practical advice I think I ever saw on the site.  Simple, straightforward, common sense stuff.

You're saying there's no room on RPGnet for "How to find a game group?"  That you honestly wonder why such advice should be posted on a site with a name like "RPGnet"?

If that's the case, then what the fuck good is RPGnet anyway?  What purpose is it left to accomplish?  Endless passive aggressive flamewars about Forge theory and Exalted?

Your post baffles me, and I guess explains why I so rarely used RPOpen when I was still a poster there.  If practical advice of that nature is not welcome there, then I can't help but feel the site is effectively a useless waste of time.

I'd just like to add, before it gets taken the wrong way, that I don't mean to attack you personally or anything like that.  You're one of my favorite people on all of RPGnet, and I mean that.  Your post just utterly baffles me is all.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBecause to me, it's bloody obvious that the owners approve of current moderation.  And it's obvious why - because current moderation there does flow directly from users to reports to policy to action and back again.  No, it's not a democracy.  But it is a process.

I doubt an apology from the community and moderators of RPGnet is ever going to be forthcoming.  But, for what it's worth, I personally enjoy your posts (though I really don't think you'd fit with the current RPGnet).

Im confused.

Posts have to "fit in"?

I thought the mods were supposed to be there to make everyone play nice, not push a message board in a certain direction.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI was interested in trying to show you where the problem came from.

You failed. It's the same vague nonsense as we got from the mods. "Er... forum's changed... you don't fit in... sorry... also, you said you liked gamers!"

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBut I'm not going to play kick-toy for you.

You ain't my kick-toy. You just came in saying that the things I posted about roleplaying games and roleplaying groups had no place on rpg.net. I thought "rpg" was short for "roleplaying games." Was I wrong? What's "rpg" stand for these days, "Regularly Pretends to Game"?

If you're going to come in saying something as ridiculous as "what you posted doesn't belong here," then you damn well better be ready to justify it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBecause to me, it's bloody obvious that the owners approve of current moderation.  And it's obvious why - because current moderation there does flow directly from users to reports to policy to action and back again.  No, it's not a democracy.  But it is a process.

Well, to my mind it's a situation similar to sacking someone, and so should be best done in a similar way - face to face (well, yknow), honestly and professionally.

Getting an insulting email from someone I don't respect full of fucking lies - Not RPG.nets finest hour, I think.

I dunno - if there is anyone left you need to sack, at least think about sending them a formal letter from the owners of the site explaining the situation.

Quote from: J ArcaneYour post just utterly baffles me is all.

Yeah.

Equally, I have trouble expressing my utter frustration with the fact that what I see isn't totally obvious.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"This is some pretty solid stuff.  But why the fuck are you posting it here?  It doesn't belong here, and will cause more aggravation than enlightenment."

What, precisely are you referencing here?

Quote from: RedFoxWhat, precisely are you referencing here?

I hate this, because making a list of such stuff publicly would feel like crapping on someone that I really like.

JimBob?  You want me to make with details?  Would it actually help?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI hate this, because making a list of such stuff publicly would feel like crapping on someone that I really like.

JimBob?  You want me to make with details?  Would it actually help?

I'm sorry, honestly.  It just seemed that was the shatterpoint of the conversation.  You said that and JimBob immediately assumed you were talking about his contributive gaming threads, and then you backed out.

It seems if you're going to throw something like that out there, you need to be specific.  Otherwise it's disingenuous to even say that much, y'know?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI've been tempted, many times, to respond to your stuff with the phrase:

"This is some pretty solid stuff.  But why the fuck are you posting it here?  It doesn't belong here, and will cause more aggravation than enlightenment."

It's probably best that you didn't since Darren has recently defined saying that kind of thing is an attack (of unspecified nature (personal or group?)) unless HE'S doing the attacking of course. You could be BANNED for saying that kind of thing. Such attacks, indeed.

Me? I stopped posting on rpg.net after Darren posted an attack against a user in red text rather than the moderating he was supposed to be doing and when I reported it, I was given an official "don't be stupid" and "don't make anymore reports" for it.

Looking at http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6584067&postcount=22 a bit more:

Quote from: Killfalcon on rpg.netWhen we decide we need more, nominations are asked for backstage.
We don't take people who cause trouble, we aim to mod-up people who make a positive contribution to the site.

We look for people who don't spark arguments with careless comments or offensive posting styles. We look for voices of reason, calm heads and the needlessly polite.

I must note that MacLennan is so far from what he states they're looking for in moderators, that he seems nigh insane by their standards. Remember when he told some user (I don't recall who) to commit suicide, which caused a shit storm of complaints, so he acted like it was a joke and everybody else was stupid not seeing it his way? Imagine if YOU did that on RPG.net, what would happen?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI hate this, because making a list of such stuff publicly would feel like crapping on someone that I really like.

Why would you stop now?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenJimBob?  You want me to make with details?  Would it actually help?

Fuck if I know. Would it help me get back onto rpg.net? If not, forget it.

Quote from: JimBobOzStill, an active, enthusiastic, and at least occasionally amusing and interesting poster, who talked about the supposed topic of the site, was banned. And not for anything concrete

Sucks that you got banned. That's what happens when you're a dick to people though. At least it is these days. I enjoyed several of your posts - they could be interesting, informative and provoke interesting discussion. But you are not being honest when you deny any sense of passive-aggression in your posts. Maybe you don't see it, but I have difficulty believing that, going by the intelligence of your posts and the oft-seeming careful consideration of your phrasing.

So, yeah, you're were frequently a dick skirting the rules. And that's fine by me. I miss the days when people could be big throbbing dripping cocks and get away with it, challenged only by other annoying pricks. But those days are gone. It sucks. I know my enjoyment of RPG.net has dwindled much.

I see where the mods are trying to take RPG.net, and it's not a place I'm all that interested in, and it's not a place that you'll fit in as well. It's a place of overly-enforced politeness, excepting those who are special. It's most certainly becoming not a place for dicks and cunts. And while Levi might like the kind of place its becoming, I think it's becoming boring. I have a feeling that before long, ENWorld will have more snark allowed than RPG.net (although I think CM might be doing a good job of channeling that snark away from the mother site).

I think over the next year, we'll probably see a lot more permabans, taking out folks like Sacrosanct and the guy with the stupid Klingon avatar. Maybe even a full-scale purge - which might be the best way to properly shape the site according to the new vision.

Quote from: PhishStyxRemember when he told some user (I don't recall who) to commit suicide, which caused a shit storm of complaints, so he acted like it was a joke and everybody else was stupid not seeing it his way?

When did that happen?  Seriously.  I haven't seen that one.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhy would you stop now?

...Not my intent, and apologies if that's how it came across.

I'll stop right there.

The New Vision
(http://www.poster.russie.net/images/china_11.jpg)

Quote from: danzig138I think over the next year, we'll probably see a lot more permabans, taking out folks like Sacrosanct and the guy with the stupid Klingon avatar. Maybe even a full-scale purge - which might be the best way to properly shape the site according to the new vision.

They're already discussing it.  They want an elaborate celebration to go along with the purge, and they're calling it Banukkah.

No, seriously.

I don't get this thing where you post within the rules and that means you're a dick.

So the guy who posts a picture of Janet Jackson which doesn't show her nipple is a dick, because he's posting within the rules banning full nudity? The guy who says, "I think you are a decent person, but your opinion is wrong," is a dick, because he's following the rule "attack the argument, not the person"?

You're a dick for following the rules?

Whereas if you break the rules, you are a...?

"If you post breaking the rules, we will ban you. If you post not breaking the rules, we'll say you're only just within the rules, and ban you. Basically we're going to ban you."

Buckets of fun!

I just want to know how we go from, "Some of what you say annoys me, but you are breaking no rules," to "You are breaking no rules, but you are deliberately skirting the edge of them and being a dick." I do not see how you can tell the difference between the two without psychic powers.

Also, "passive-aggressive" is just bullshit.

"You are saying things in a very aggressive way."
"I am? But I'm not being aggressive. Show me where I'm being aggressive."
"Er... you... um..."
"Well?"
"You're passive-aggressive!"

It's a bit like old Freud with Dora. "Dora, your father did not really molest you. Actually, you have a desire for sexual intercourse with your father, but because you could not face this desire, you sublimated it into a fantasy that he had molested you."
"That's not true."
"Aha! But a woman who could not face her desire for her father and has sublimated it would of course deny it!"
"And if I say it is true?"
"Well then that proves it."
"So if I say it's true, that proves it, if I say it's not true, that proves it, too?"
"Yes."
"What a brilliant theory. Whatever the facts, it's true."

It's much the same with "passive-aggressive." It's an irrefutable accusation. If you tell them to fuck off, that's aggressive and proves their point; if you say, "well, I dunno..." then that's just "passive"-aggressive, and also proves their point.

Whatever you post, someone can call it "passive-aggressive." It's a brilliant thing to accuse someone of, they can never refute it.

JimBob, I think you forgot the golden rule - the internet is serious fucking business (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/The_Internet_is_serious_business).  The mods on RPGnet are very, very important people doing a difficult job.  

We post in a world that has walls and those walls have to be guarded by mods.  Whose gonna do it?  You?  They have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom.  You have the luxury of not knowing what they know.  That your banning, while tragic, probably saved lives.  And their existance, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want them on that wall, you need them on that wall.

Ok, sorry for my flippancy.  I'm not the one that contributed 4,000+ threads and countless hours to RPGnet so it's easy for me.  If it's any consolation, your banning has generated quite a ruckus.  Probably wont change anything, but I'm guessing you knew that already.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhen did that happen?  Seriously.  I haven't seen that one.

Been a while, but it happened.

Quote from: Tyberious Funk*snip comedy fucking gold*

Ok, sorry for my flippancy.  I'm not the one that contributed 4,000+ threads and countless hours to RPGnet so it's easy for me.  If it's any consolation, your banning has generated quite a ruckus.  Probably wont change anything, but I'm guessing you knew that already.

Of course nothing will be changed.

Yes, I did contribute quite a bit of time and effort to rpg.net. It's a bit like preparing a big campaign for your players, all these handouts - then they tell you to fuck off and take your cheetos off you. "Yes, we were playing D&D, but your Eberron does not fit in D&D." It's pretty insulting, as well as stupid.

To add to my humilation, fokaygarry has found an old rpg.net post of mine, where Nisarg (RPGPundit) had been banned, and I'd said, "good riddance." t3h intarweb is t3h irony, d00d.

QuoteAlso, "passive-aggressive" is just bullshit.

Indeed it is.  And Cecil agrees. (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030530.html)

Well, that didn't take long.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=297409

I suppose I can expect to be harassed yet again by Darren and banned now. I wonder if they'll cut and paste from Jim Bob's ban message or go to the trouble writing something new.

Quote from: PhishStyxWell, that didn't take long.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=297409

I suppose I can expect to be harassed yet again by Darren and banned now. I wonder if they'll cut and paste from Jim Bob's ban message or go to the trouble writing something new.

Dude, I've been looking for where that happened.  Very, very seriously looking.  And I can't find it.

Quote from: PhishStyxWell, that didn't take long.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=297409

Mate, you have to copy and paste and quote for the benefit of we bannzorzed. What do you expect me to do, start a sock puppet account?

• That's lame and wussy
• Sock-puppetting when you're suspended/banned makes it a permanent and/or IP ban, I don't want to give them a real reason to ban me.
  

Quote from: JimBobOzMate, you have to copy and paste and quote for the benefit of we bannzorzed.

I'm not banned, and I couldn't see it either.

Unless I am banned and didn't realise it

Maybe it got pulled for mod review?

Quote from: JimBobOzMaybe it got pulled for mod review?

I dunno, but it sure isn't there anymore.

Essentially, the thread consisted of Darren publicly asking if anyone remembers him telling someone to commit suicide, which truthfully, although I remember it happening, I strongly doubt that I could find it.

Quote from: RedFoxThey're already discussing it.  They want an elaborate celebration to go along with the purge, and they're calling it Banukkah.

No, seriously.

Yeah, that was especially surreal. I used to think that maybe there was an off-chance that my concerns about moderation were unwarranted, but after that...well, what can one say to that. The fact that other posters could think it a good idea is just scary - I just don't understand that attitude.

Quote from: Illegible Smudge[Bannukah] The fact that other posters could think it a good idea is just scary - I just don't understand that attitude.

They don't, they're just sucking up. Whenever there's a vaguely controversial ban being discussed, you get people posting to the thread saying how great the mods are, jokingly suggested random bans, etc. Basically they're scared they're next, and by a few jokes, are hoping to avoid being banned themselves.

I've seen it in many places - roleplaying clubs, workplaces - someone gets tossed out, it gets discussed, the people joking about it are the ones who are most nervous about being the next ones out.

It's just a bit of arse-kissing, don't take it seriously.

Quote from: JimBobOzThey don't, they're just sucking up. Whenever there's a vaguely controversial ban being discussed, you get people posting to the thread saying how great the mods are, jokingly suggested random bans, etc. Basically they're scared they're next, and by a few jokes, are hoping to avoid being banned themselves.

I've seen it in many places - roleplaying clubs, workplaces - someone gets tossed out, it gets discussed, the people joking about it are the ones who are most nervous about being the next ones out.

It's just a bit of arse-kissing, don't take it seriously.

You see, at least that I could understand. Not condone, but understand. But I'm not quite that cynical - I have to assume that at least some of them are sincere. Which worries me, because the alternative is...well, I just don't get it. :(

But then the dominant rpgnet culture is just becoming so fucking alien to me these days. I'm probably going to cut back my involvement to just the PbP forums and maybe Art of Game Design, and get my general gaming discussion fix here. I have to say, it's fucking liberating not to have to engage in self-censorship for a change.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeI have to say, it's fucking liberating not to have to engage in self-censorship for a change.

I'm happy to self-censor. Every forum has rules of some kind - if only basic laws against drugs and pr0n and fraud -, which will be felt as a restriction by someone or other. My problem is not with restricting what I say to within the rules - it's with restricting what I say to within the rules, and then being banned anyway. Break the rules, get banned, follow the rules, get banned, kinda leaves a guy at a loss, yeah?

*shrug*

I still wonder how that TT thread is going... I don't expect any change, but of course I hope, and am curious.

Quote from: JimBobOzThey don't, they're just sucking up. Whenever there's a vaguely controversial ban being discussed, you get people posting to the thread saying how great the mods are, jokingly suggested random bans, etc. Basically they're scared they're next, and by a few jokes, are hoping to avoid being banned themselves.

I've seen it in many places - roleplaying clubs, workplaces - someone gets tossed out, it gets discussed, the people joking about it are the ones who are most nervous about being the next ones out.

It's just a bit of arse-kissing, don't take it seriously.

Does one of these guys go by a name like "Qoltar" and have a klingon avatar?

I did like one suggestion.

"Paranoid people criticise the mods for banning people arbitrarily.  So let's write it into the rules that mods ARE allowed to ban people arbitrarily three times a year"

*thumps head on desk*

It's a bit like saying "People criticise the President for condoning torture.  So what we're going to do is allow the President to torture three people every year, no questions asked.  That way people will know that all the other people he deals with aren't tortured".

Quote from: Dominus NoxDoes one of these guys go by a name like "Qoltar" and have a klingon avatar?

Qoltar is a very decent guy, and would be good to game with. As a forum poster, his decency makes him a bliss ninny (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/blissninny.htm).

Bliss Ninny doesn't understand why people just can't get along. While it is entirely unintentional, Bliss Ninny's utterly vacuous comments can drive the more pugnacious Warriors into a frenzy of aggression. Often in the heat of battle Bliss Ninny will discuss her cat.


He doesn't have a cat, so he'll bring up Condoleeza Rice being a h4wt chixxor or something. No, I'm not joking.

He's not an arse-kisser, he just doesn't understand why we can't all get along. Which is pretty funny for a guy who likes Klingons, I know, but there you go.

Quote from: JimBobOzQoltar is a very decent guy, and would be good to game with. As a forum poster, his decency makes him a bliss ninny (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/blissninny.htm).

Bliss Ninny doesn't understand why people just can't get along. While it is entirely unintentional, Bliss Ninny's utterly vacuous comments can drive the more pugnacious Warriors into a frenzy of aggression. Often in the heat of battle Bliss Ninny will discuss her cat.

(http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/blissninny.jpg)

He doesn't have a cat, so he'll bring up Condoleeza Rice being a h4wt chixxor or something. No, I'm not joking.

He's not an arse-kisser, he just doesn't understand why we can't all get along. Which is pretty funny for a guy who likes Klingons, I know, but there you go.

Well, thr qoltar I know (Ed carlton or something like that) is a complete toady who cheers and sucks up everytime someone is banned, generally attacks liberals, democrats and anyone who speaks ill of republicans.

Dominus Nox, it is not necessary to quote the entire post you're replying to. We saw it once, that's enough. Just quote the essential parts. Those of us on dial-up will be greatful. We want to see your words, not the words again of the last guy.

Quote from: David ROne of the reasons given was that he really cared about the site. I haven't seen any real problems with Curt's modding, but really, this was a guy, who was one of the more toxic posters around but he was liked.

That wasn't a real reason.  Hell, I really really cared about the site too. But he's there, and I'm not.
It was ideological, because he was as you say one of the "cool kids".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RedFoxBecause Levi isn't here, I think I'll step in to mention something folks might not know.

I was a Mod for a fairly sizeable online gaming board, and I've got to say...  Modding isn't a cool kids club or a system of patronage.  

Except that over in RPG.net the mods have pretty much admitted that they are a system of patronage. And they certainly act like a special clique of the elite.

QuoteSo no, Curt isn't a sell-out to the "cool kids club."

You're half-right. He was never a "sell-out", because there was nothing for him to sell out to.

RPGPundit

Quote from: fonkaygarryI'm not going to contend that modding is an easy, rewarding job.  That's something we can all agree on.  At the same time, it's not some honorable quest undertaken for the Good of All.  
Mods sign on to sweep up the messes of forum goons.  Forgive me if I don't shed a tear for their lost evenings and weekends.

Well, I happen to BE a mod now, right here, and I can tell you that  (after the hassle of those first couple of weeks setting everything up) it is BOTH easy AND rewarding.

If its really "Hard" its probably because you're doing it wrong, being a fascist shithead and all.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RedFoxI'm not saying you should be weeping in your cheerios, man.  Just keeping in mind that these are volunteers doing unpleasant work that makes them hated.

The way they are doing things makes them deserve to be hated.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RedFoxThe biggest criteria for a Mod appointment, in my experience, is (aside from copious amounts of spare time with which to do the work) trust.  You're giving someone authority in your name.  So you've got to be able to trust that they'll do the work in a way that won't make you look like shit.

So JimBob's probably spot on in that him being a roommate probably didn't hurt.  ;)

Yes, you're absolutely right that it is trust, but the question is "what kind of trust"?

In the case of theRPGsite, I picked Jrients and Mcrow because I trust both of them.  Now, WHAT I trust them to do is to stay true to the ideological mission statement of this site.  I trust them to think like I do about the issues of moderation.

Over on RPG.net, the Mods are chosen with the "trust" that they are the fashionable posters who will maintain the hegemony of the modclique.   Just as I would not give an admin position to someone who was in favour of fascist-style bannings left and right, they would not give the mod position to someone who was against the politically correct/fashionable notions of the current modclique.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThousands of reports, dozens of discussions with users, and hundreds of moderator discussions, on various topics.  At least some of which is going on, all the damn time, in a constant flow.

I do not think that your apparent mental image of how it works maps well to the reality.

In other words, the moderation let themselves get drunk on power, and some of the minoritarian groups within RPG.net saw how the current moderation method of reporting posts helped them as an ideological weapon, so they used it to hunt down their enemies while encouraging the modclique to wallow more and more in their own corrupt crapulence.

That's what happened.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzTo add to my humilation, fokaygarry has found an old rpg.net post of mine, where Nisarg (RPGPundit) had been banned, and I'd said, "good riddance." t3h intarweb is t3h irony, d00d.

Indeed it is. But I'll chalk it up to you not knowing me that well back then.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeYeah, that was especially surreal. I used to think that maybe there was an off-chance that my concerns about moderation were unwarranted, but after that...well, what can one say to that. The fact that other posters could think it a good idea is just scary - I just don't understand that attitude.

You might have to ask Germany.  The "attitude" in question is called "fascism", and there's always a shitload of little sheep that are more than happy to go along with it, whenever it pops up, and usually a big shitload of people who end up regretting it later.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIn other words, the moderation let themselves get drunk on power, and some of the minoritarian groups within RPG.net saw how the current moderation method of reporting posts helped them as an ideological weapon, so they used it to hunt down their enemies while encouraging the modclique to wallow more and more in their own corrupt crapulence.

I ... don't think that's really as much a rephrasing of Levi's statement as your "In other words" might lead people to believe.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's what happened.

Obviously you're of that opinion, but I think you're grasping at straws when you imply that it's what Levi's saying.

To me, he seems to be saying that the RPGNet board is deliberately moderated with an eye toward the comfort of the majority of users, and that therefore a (perceived) majority opinion of the users bears a lot of weight with the moderators even if it doesn't accord with any abstract principle.

Quote from: Illegible SmudgeYou see, at least that I could understand. Not condone, but understand. But I'm not quite that cynical - I have to assume that at least some of them are sincere. Which worries me, because the alternative is...well, I just don't get it. :(

But then the dominant rpgnet culture is just becoming so fucking alien to me these days. I'm probably going to cut back my involvement to just the PbP forums and maybe Art of Game Design, and get my general gaming discussion fix here. I have to say, it's fucking liberating not to have to engage in self-censorship for a change.

Welcome aboard!

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzDominus Nox, it is not necessary to quote the entire post you're replying to. We saw it once, that's enough. Just quote the essential parts. Those of us on dial-up will be greatful. We want to see your words, not the words again of the last guy.

There are still people on dial-up?? Dude, I live in a latinamerican third world country and I'm not on dialup! :D

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou might have to ask Germany.  The "attitude" in question is called "fascism", and there's always a shitload of little sheep that are more than happy to go along with it, whenever it pops up, and usually a big shitload of people who end up regretting it later.

Huzzah for Godwin!

Anyway, I think you're making light of fascism.  Fascists deprived people of their real human rights ... they starved them, killed them, repressed them, all that jazz.

Comparing an internet forum to that?  Dude.  It shows either (a) a lack of genuine outrage against fascism or (b) a hugely inflated sense of the importance of internet fora.

Quote from: TonyLBObviously you're of that opinion, but I think you're grasping at straws when you imply that it's what Levi's saying.

To me, he seems to be saying that the RPGNet board is deliberately moderated with an eye toward the comfort of the majority of users, and that therefore a (perceived) majority opinion of the users bears a lot of weight with the moderators even if it doesn't accord with any abstract principle.

Actually, he was first trying to claim that RPG.net is some kind of organic group-entity and it just "evolved" away from the rest of us. Then when it was clear that wouldn't fly, he tried to argue that it was a collective democratic decision that everyone was on board with except a few troublemakers.  That didn't really fly either, so he tried to go with the "Benign dictator" explanation.

I decided to explain how it really happened.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditActually, he was first trying to claim that RPG.net is some kind of organic group-entity and it just "evolved" away from the rest of us.

Well, if majority opinion of people on the site changes (as it will, when new people join, old people leave, remaining people change their opinion, etc.) then that's a group-entity evolving its opinion, right?  And if the mods intend to pay attention to that changing opinion then it's to be expected that their moderation standards are going to change as well.

Is that genuinely hard to understand?  I sorta get Levi's frustration with this.  He's not saying anything particularly complex.  Are people genuinely not able to understand, or are they choosing not to understand?

Quote from: TonyLBHuzzah for Godwin!

Anyway, I think you're making light of fascism.  Fascists deprived people of their real human rights ... they starved them, killed them, repressed them, all that jazz.

Comparing an internet forum to that?  Dude.  It shows either (a) a lack of genuine outrage against fascism or (b) a hugely inflated sense of the importance of internet fora.

Agreed, people using the term fascism for shit like this really annoys me for precisely the reasons you cite.

Quote from: TonyLBWell, if majority opinion of people on the site changes (as it will, when new people join, old people leave, remaining people change their opinion, etc.) then that's a group-entity evolving its opinion, right?  And if the mods intend to pay attention to that changing opinion then it's to be expected that their moderation standards are going to change as well.

Is that genuinely hard to understand?  I sorta get Levi's frustration with this.  He's not saying anything particularly complex.  Are people genuinely not able to understand, or are they choosing not to understand?

If this site was suddenly filled with hundreds and hundreds of politically correct pro-moderation types that cried out for "order", I wouldn't change a whit of my moderation policy.  
Unlike RPG.net, this site will not allow for a special interest group(s) to come in and subvert the site.

RPGPundit

Quote from: BalbinusAgreed, people using the term fascism for shit like this really annoys me for precisely the reasons you cite.

Wrong.  If I'd said "They're just like Hitler!!" or something like that, you might have had an argument.  But to say that this isn't fascism would be incorrect.  Fascism is its own big spectrum, and you don't need to be sending people off to concentration camps to be a fascist.

To imply that just because they aren't murdering anyone or taking away essential human rights, they aren't fascist, is either a misunderstanding of what that ideology consists of, or an intentional rhetorical parry being done to score a cheap point.

RPGPundit

I would be interested to hear in what sense moderation at RPG.net is fascist. It certainly doesn't seem to fit my own understanding of fascism (elitist, racist, militaristic, conservative etc), if one were to use the term outside of politics (which is dodgy, IMO - "I'm getting my ear pierced and going to that Insane Clown Posse concert with Jody and you can't stop me, you fascist!")

Care to expand?

Ned

Quote from: TonyLBWell, if majority opinion of people on the site changes (as it will, when new people join, old people leave, remaining people change their opinion, etc.) then that's a group-entity evolving its opinion, right?  And if the mods intend to pay attention to that changing opinion then it's to be expected that their moderation standards are going to change as well.

Is that genuinely hard to understand?  I sorta get Levi's frustration with this.  He's not saying anything particularly complex.  Are people genuinely not able to understand, or are they choosing not to understand?

Uh huh. RPG.nets extensive mechanisms for determining the will of its users are well documented, and anyway, if the majority rules can't we do something about all the queers and fags running about the forum unchecked?

Sadly, the moral really is that if you don't want to wake up and discover that someone has decided its better for the community to get rid of you you have to get involved in local politics.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, AKA, hell is other people.

Quote from: Erik BoielleUh huh. RPG.nets extensive mechanisms for determining the will of its users are well documented, and anyway, if the majority rules can't we do something about all the queers and fags running about the forum unchecked?

Erik,

While I do feel this accurately communicates the passion you feel on this subject, I do struggle somewhat to understand the underlying point you are seeking to make in the latter part of this paragraph.

Quote from: BalbinusAgreed, people using the term fascism for shit like this really annoys me for precisely the reasons you cite.

  But human nature is human nature and you can see in forum politics the same forces that shape real world politics.  So when people on a forum happily accept greater and greater levels of intervention by authority figures and whenever those figures are criticised apologists spring up to shout down any debate, then I'm sorry but I see similarities.

  It's an emotive word largely used for rhetorical purposes but Milgram and Zimbardo go some way to explaining what goes on on some internet forums.

  The only difference between forums and the real world is that you can choose to go and hang out somewhere else than the internet forums, but the psycho-social forces that give rise to authoritarian styles of government are alive and well on the internet.

  "It's just the internet" is dismissive and, I think, ignores certain clear facts about human nature.

I think the meaningful ability to leave is essential though, this is where John Locke breaks down in his concept of the social contract between the individual and the state.  In practice, unlike in theory, the individual most likely cannot simply move state (particularly at the time he was writing).  However, online one can simply move to another forum, as indeed many of us here have.

There's also a seriousness issue.  Technically RE was right in saying that teaching someone to play Vampire is like abusing them as both lead to longer term cognitive changes, but it remains a ludicrous and offensive comparison because degrees of impact matter.  The fundamental concepts may be the same, but the effects are not and it is that disparity which for me makes the comparison incorrect.

At work, as in any large organisation, there are individuals who seek to apply policies for the sake of the power such application gives them rather than to fulfil the policies original intent.  In another context, that would be fascist, but in this context it is merely annoying and I think the context and the effect are relevant considerations.

Put simply, they aren't killing people or taking away fundamental liberties, they're stopping use of a forum (or in this case stopping easy access to a new blackberry).  Calling it fascism reduces our ability to properly describe the genuinely serious abuses when they occur.

Fascism has nothing to do with conservatism or racism, really. Any system wherein order is enforced through force (traditionally beatings and executions) can be described as a fascist system.

The fasces (that roman thing with the bundle of sticks surrounding an axe) is what it is named after. The sticks are for beatings. The axe is for executions.

In the sense that you can't actually kill anyone over the internet (more's the pity!), but you can silence them permanently by banning, you indeed have fascism.

Quote from: Abyssal MawFascism has nothing to do with conservatism or racism, really. Any system wherein order is enforced through force (traditionally beatings and executions) can be described as a fascist system.

No.  You are simply wrong.

Enforced authority =/= Fascism

That's authoritarianism. Fascism is a particular flavour thereof (as I understand it - I'm not a political scientist).

Ned

Quote from: BalbinusErik,

While I do feel this accurately communicates the passion you feel on this subject, I do struggle somewhat to understand the underlying point you are seeking to make in the latter part of this paragraph.

It's a tyranny of the majority thing.

That said, is BlissNinnyLB incredibly thick or a gifted flamewarrior?

QuoteTo me, he seems to be saying that the RPGNet board is deliberately moderated with an eye toward the comfort of the majority of users, and that therefore a (perceived) majority opinion of the users bears a lot of weight with the moderators even if it doesn't accord with any abstract principle.

is a genius fork - Do you point out the problems inherent in letting people get rid of minorities they don't like, or press on with arguments centered around the power of special interest groups that can give false impressions of majority, or what?

Quote from: TonyLBNo.  You are simply wrong.

Enforced authority =/= Fascism

So what do we call the enforced authoritarianism by people with a mission to change the culture thing they have going on over at RPG.net?

I agree with you that it's an emotive and unhelpful term, but I think that looking at internet forums through the lens of political science is no more silly than looking at politics through the lens of management studies, something that's become more and more popular in recent years.

Also, I think you're getting hung up on the idea that people can leave a forum.  Had Pol Pot given everyone free transport out of the country when he took over Cambodia, would that have made him any less of a tyrant?  Even if loads of people had left, you'd still sit outside Cambodia and go "that's a really fucked up way to run a country".

You're right to invoke Locke though, Plume's post was a clear attempt at doing the same thing as Locke... namely taking the lack of disconcent to be the same as tacit consent and using that as a mandate for rulership.

Quote from: BalbinusPut simply, they aren't killing people or taking away fundamental liberties, they're stopping use of a forum (or in this case stopping easy access to a new blackberry).  Calling it fascism reduces our ability to properly describe the genuinely serious abuses when they occur.

I mostly agree with your point, but I think that can be a very dangerous attitude as well if one is not careful. By dismissing any criticism of a regime as fascist by saying that it devalues the word, you run the risk of not being able to warn of a drift in that direction until it is too late. I worry about this in the real world, where politicians describe any criticism of their anti-terrorism legislation as ridiculous with comments like "we aren't going to become a police-state". If nothing short of late Nazi Germany can be described as fascist, we are restricting the word to a uselessly narrow definition.

Quote from: Erik BoielleDo you point out the problems inherent in letting people get rid of minorities they don't like, or press on with arguments centered around the power of special interest groups that can give false impressions of majority, or what?

Here, I'll do the one, and you can do the other.  'kay?

I'm worried about the way that they're moderating, because it creates a tight cycle of positive feedback.  As they cull voices (both by banning people and by the pervasive threat of random banning causing people to self-censor) that express dissent from what they perceive to be the majority opinion, the moderators are making that opinion easier and easier to hear.  To the extent that they base their actions on the clarity of the majority opinion, their own moderation feeds back into a justification for more and more extreme and pervasive moderation, which in turn clarifies the "message" of the board behind one set of opinions and attitudes.

I think the long-term outcome is a board with more divisiveness and less diversity.  That seems a shame.  It makes the board less valuable to me.

Quote from: TonyLBI'm worried about the way that they're moderating, because it creates a tight cycle of positive feedback.  As they cull voices (both by banning people and by the pervasive threat of random banning causing people to self-censor) that express dissent from what they perceive to be the majority opinion, the moderators are making that opinion easier and easier to hear.  To the extent that they base their actions on the clarity of the majority opinion, their own moderation feeds back into a justification for more and more extreme and pervasive moderation, which in turn clarifies the "message" of the board behind one set of opinions and attitudes.

Which is, of course, fine if you don't care about other peoples opinions and really wish to impose a vision.

Isn't this about behaviour rather than opinions, though? JimBob was not banned for his opinions but for the way he expressed them. That was my interpretation, at any rate.

Ned

JimBob's really neither here nor there.  It's about tolerance of unpopular posting styles, where you set the bar and how you set the bar.

Okay. Perhaps I made the mistake of taking one of Erik's posts seriously. That said, I find it hard to equate "They are requiring me to be overly polite" with "Fascists!"

Ned

You can have opinions on peoples deportment, and other people can not care about them.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalJimBob's really neither here nor there.

Well, JimBob probably cares. It's up to him to decide if he wants to try to get unbanned, given that they are activly trying to clean it up, or what.

QuoteOkay. Perhaps I made the mistake of taking one of Erik's posts seriously. That said, I find it hard to equate "They are requiring me to be overly polite" with "Fascists!"

But this is RPG.net! - one of the things I liked about it was that you didn't have to be overly polite and could give people an honest opinion. Its broadly why I went there. That and great flame wars. And its been like that all the time I was there. It's not like I turned up at Crochetforoldladies.net and started telling everyone in no uncertain terms that they were all lying cretins. I turned up at RPG.net, got called a lying cretin and decided I liked it. Seven years ago.

Not that I don't see the attraction of a less rough and tumble forum, but FUCK YOU for making that decision for me, and deciding to make it out of my site.

Quote from: TonyLBWell, if majority opinion of people on the site changes (as it will, when new people join, old people leave, remaining people change their opinion, etc.) then that's a group-entity evolving its opinion, right?  And if the mods intend to pay attention to that changing opinion then it's to be expected that their moderation standards are going to change as well.

Is that genuinely hard to understand?  I sorta get Levi's frustration with this.  He's not saying anything particularly complex.  Are people genuinely not able to understand, or are they choosing not to understand?

So when you say "group entity evolving" what you're talking about is when some poster puts up a thread asking "what d20 Pulp game is right for me" and 30 people post "Exalted... dude seriously, it's exactly what you're looking for".

You mean that right? Because that's why *I* stopped reading and/or posting to RPGnet.

Chuck

After reading the bulk of this thread, I thought I'd share the non-private bits from a PM that I just recently sent to Cessna.  Subsequent to a dust-up between him and me, he asked my opinion on how to help make RPG.net a better place, I believe sincerely inviting some genuine, constructive criticism.  Here is what I wrote:

Quote...Now, on to greater matters, what's wrong with enforcing manners?  Quite simply, it doesn't make people any better mannered.  It simply suppresses their outward expressions of hostility, and instead of erupting in one ugly outburst, it seethes out in a hundred other less obvious behaviors.  And possibly worse, the policy of dictating a certain mode of behavior, attempting to create an environment artificially devoid of personal reproach has inadvertently led to an atmosphere of absurdity, where outrageous statements can not be gainsaid and incisive insight can be punished for not being phrased delicately enough.

So, how to improve the situation?  Kill Tangency.  I am not being flip.  In recent months, I've largely removed myself from RPG.net and begun to frequent other sites.  Furthermore, on roleplaying game sites, I've tried to restrict my discussion to roleplaying.  I've come to realise that all of the side-discussion and exploration of personal lives on a public forum is poison.  On a personal level, simply not posting or even lurking about on forum sites -- just getting hell off the Internet for a bit -- made my world seem like a better place.  On a specific note, though, staying away from Tangency Open made my world feel like a much better place.

Honestly, this is not just about me.  Tangency has reached some kind of critical mass, where the inanity and frivolity and ugliness that it attracts and breeds has become the driving force at RPG.net.  It's dictating increasingly absurd control measures to keep the emotional powder-keg in check.  It's requiring a massive increase in the number of moderators.  It's obviously burning the living shit out of you folks, as moderate long-timers like me eventually catch the ire of mods/admins whom we had always thought of as decent and interesting people before, and we end up on "Backstage" shit-lists as trouble-makers whose behavior is deemed to be no longer appropriate to RPG.net.

Don't you remember when talking shit about roleplaying games was fun?  I did, and I eventually felt I had to go somewhere else to do it again.

So, again, what to do about it?  Kill Tangency.  Hey, if Ron Edwards can slag the Forge's theory forums once they reached a point of diminishing returns to a site dedicated to RPGs, Tangency can be jettisoned.  Let's face it, it's a site unto itself now.  It no longer has shit to do with RPGs.  Cut it loose and let it sink or swim on its own.  If you want to be the admin of Tangency, that's fine, but for my selfish purposes, I want RPG.net back.  I've been enjoying it since 1997, but it's gotten overrun by people and policy that have nothing to do with gaming.  I'm betting you'd have a lot more fun administrating a site about RPGs than you do a site about fetishes, hurt feelings, and delicate egos.

That's what I think.  I used to enjoy RPG.net, but I don't like what it's become. However, I resent the feeling of being pushed out.  I feel that I have as much right as any to frequent a site about RPGs.  Now I mostly lurk about, and I occasionally post comments to the RPG Open forum, but I don't even look at Tangency anymore.  It's ugly, and it deserves to go away far more than I do.  Anyone who still wants to discuss RPGs will stay on at RPG.net.

I wish you and the rest of the admins and mods the best of luck, though it is not without reservation and not with a great deal of hope.

Sincerely,
Ian Young

!i!

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyOkay. Perhaps I made the mistake of taking one of Erik's posts seriously. That said, I find it hard to equate "They are requiring me to be overly polite" with "Fascists!"

Ned

There are plenty of grotesquely impolite people who happen to be in favour with the modclique who are not banned, or are only banned if it gets to the point that avoiding doing so would create an unbearable weight of evidence of favouritism.  Amado being a clear case of the latter, for example.

If they were really treating everyone equally, that would be another story. They aren't though. Hell, many of the moderators are themselves people that, were they not mods and inherently part of the modclique, would be bannable.  If "regular non-popular poster x" said even one-tenth of the shit that Darren or Curt say, they'd be banned in an instant.

Its not about setting up rules, its about keeping hold of power. The whole "we're creating a more polite safer place to post" is just a bold-faced lie and cover for their real interest.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIts not about setting up rules, its about keeping hold of power. The whole "we're creating a more polite safer place to post" is just a bold-faced lie and cover for their real interest.

*Removes gloves*

You, sir, are currently stuffed full of shit.

You don't know the first thing about what you're talking about, and yet you feel the need to hold forth as if you were enlightened regarding the subject.  You think that you know what moderating that site is like, and therefore, what kinds of decisions the mods there are making, and on what basis?

Dump the hot air, my man.  You haven't got a clue.

This site is proof that the Modcliques excuses for their heavy-handed modding of that site are just that, excuses. Or better put, lies.

Hell, what RPG.net used to be is all the proof one would need. There was no overwhelming "crisis" that required the creation of totalitarian levels of moderation, there was just the invention of the idea of a crisis to allow a certain interest group to mold the RPG.net site to their liking.

I have heard that you've apparently resigned as a mod, how interesting.

RPGPundit

Pundit, the crucial error with your theory is that you encountered a very real problem, but made the mistake of believing that it was about you.  Your experiences were symptoms, not the disease.  Get over yourself.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditI have heard that you've apparently resigned as a mod, how interesting.

Correct.  

Because I am sick as hell of maintaining the insanely huge degree of neutrality that does exist among mods there.  That is required for the job.  This is their mission statement:

"To keep the forums friendly and welcoming to as wide a range of users as possible."

Read that.  Really read it.  And then think about it, hard, about what that actually means.  It means that your so-called "swine", your "lawncrappers", JimBob's "bitter nongamers" - that these folks must be as welcome as anyone else, so long as they can treat others with a modicum of respect.  They are people interested in talking about gaming, and willing to speak with others respectfully, full stop.

There are people that you would never be willing to treat with that basic level of respect.  And that is why you don't belong there.

There are people that JimBob pissed all over while he was there, by implication and by design, often dead smack in the middle of some otherwise brilliant piece of writing.  And that is why he doesn't belong there.

It's not fucking complicated.

Quote from: RPGPunditThis site is proof that the Modcliques excuses for their heavy-handed modding of that site are just that, excuses.

Dude, hubris much?  They have over 30 times as many members and I don't feel the least bit confident that modding problems scale linearly.

It's sad to see you go JimBob, but I think that the position is inflexible on this banning.

:mad:

Quote from: jrientsDude, hubris much?  They have over 30 times as many members and I don't feel the least bit confident that modding problems scale linearly.

Hear, hear!

I think that the size and moderation mission of RPGnet has become a tough problem, and IMO they're at a point where the solutions don't come easy, but I think if it continues without solid changes the solutions that will have to be taken could be surprising to us in the peanut gallery, with Bannukah not being far down the list.

Quote from: jrientsDude, hubris much?  They have over 30 times as many members and I don't feel the least bit confident that modding problems scale linearly.

Just watch us.

Will there be an arithmetical rise in moderation? Yes, no doubt; I have said before and I'll say it again that I suspect its pretty much inevitable that sooner or later I'll have to ban someone who isn't a straightforward spammer.  But in no way will I actually have to change the overall policy and mission statement of this board, much less enact the totalitarian regime that exists over on RPG.net.  

The notion that the mods at RPG.net "MUST" act the way they do is quite simply a lie. Anyone who really believes that has either fallen for that lie or has consciously or subconsciously chosen to believe it because it makes them easier to accept/excuse what goes on there.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe notion that the mods at RPG.net "MUST" act the way they do is quite simply a lie. Anyone who really believes that has either fallen for that lie or has consciously or subconsciously chosen to believe it because it makes them easier to accept/excuse what goes on there.

No, there's no reason they must act as they do.  They could pursue other goals.  They could pursue the same goal by different methods.  They have chosen a particular method for their particular goal.  They had options.

But that is a very poor excuse for you to pretend that the only reason they could possibly have chosen that method is because they're power-mad liars.

The reasons they have given are sufficient to explain why they act as they do.  It's not what either you or I would do in their place, but we aren't them.

If you assume that everybody in the world is a cynical, self-serving asshole then you're going to see a lot of people who claim to be doing their best and acting from good intentions, and you'll conclude that they're all liars and hypocrites.  That doesn't mean it's true, it just means it's what you choose to see.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenIt's not fucking complicated.

42 pages of discussion over on RPGnet and 22 pages here (both still growing) would suggest that either it is complicated... or that it isn't complicated, but that the mods are not getting it right.

Quote from: TonyLBNo, there's no reason they must act as they do.  They could pursue other goals.  They could pursue the same goal by different methods.  They have chosen a particular method for their particular goal.  They had options.

They are constantly trying minor variations in the methods of getting that goal, looking for the optimum way.  But it's not the specific methods, in the end, that will keep pissing off people like Pundit - those methods are in flux, always, responding to people, to reports, all that jazz.  

It's the goal itself.

To Pundit, there simply are people that want to talk about gaming that deserve to be sneered at.  That ought to be told "Look, shut the fuck up, you festering gob."

And that contradicts the goal.

And, put plainly, there are moments where I've seen you, Tony, basically say that same kind of thing.  And, on some (not all, but some) of those occasions, I've laughed like a hyena, agreed completely, and then twitched.

Because a mod there doesn't get to do that.  Their job is to stop that kind of thing, and that's exactly as it should be given the circumstances.  And they are doing it very, very well.

I just don't want to do it anymore.  Because, sometimes, I want to see someone get called a festering gob, and just enjoy the hell out of it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBecause a mod there doesn't get to do that.  Their job is to stop that kind of thing, and that's exactly as it should be given the circumstances.  And they are doing it very, very well.

When I see mods do bans or suspensions over there, it always seems as though the mod is bleeding off a tiny bit of roiling, seething rage.  Maybe that's why, eh?

Quote from: TonyLBNo, there's no reason they must act as they do.  They could pursue other goals.  They could pursue the same goal by different methods.  They have chosen a particular method for their particular goal.  They had options.

But that is a very poor excuse for you to pretend that the only reason they could possibly have chosen that method is because they're power-mad liars.

The reasons they have given are sufficient to explain why they act as they do.  It's not what either you or I would do in their place, but we aren't them.

If you assume that everybody in the world is a cynical, self-serving asshole then you're going to see a lot of people who claim to be doing their best and acting from good intentions, and you'll conclude that they're all liars and hypocrites.  That doesn't mean it's true, it just means it's what you choose to see.

By your own admission here, every single time one of the RPG.net mods claim that their mod policy is "necessary", they are being precisely bold-faced liars.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditBy your own admission here, every single time one of the RPG.net mods claim that their mod policy is "necessary", they are being precisely bold-faced liars.

Sure, I'll buy that.  But that's a huge retreat from your original position:

Quote from: RPGPunditIts not about setting up rules, its about keeping hold of power. The whole "we're creating a more polite safer place to post" is just a bold-faced lie and cover for their real interest.

Are they misrepresenting their path as the only possible path?  If you say so.  I haven't seen anyone say the "necessary" thing, but it wouldn't surprise (or upset) me.  I'll take it on faith that they actually said that, and it's clearly not true.

Are they misrepresenting their motives for what they do?  I see no evidence to suggest it.  I think you're projecting.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou, sir, are currently stuffed full of shit.

Careful, Levi, rpg.net sometimes moderates you for what you said on another site. After all, from the bits of the Trouble Tickets thread people have forwarded me, they're saying, "go look at therpgsite, you can see what Jim Bob's like over there." So what you say here matters, and will contribute to decisions as to whether to warn, suspend, or ban you.

Be careful, mate.

As to the recent comments on this thread...

I should like to make it clear that I do not support the absurd description of rpg.net modding as "fascism". As Balbinus said, it's as absurd and unhelpful as Ron Edwards' "brain damage" comments. We have in the English language a wonderful range of words to describe range of meaning; let's use them.

rpg.net moderation is certainly imperfect, but in general is carried out with the intention of making it a civil and friendly place. There are certainly improvements which could be made - giving the mods short terms so they don't become bitter and adversarial, for example - but it's senseless for a banned user like me to suggest them. I hope that serious consideration will be given to the intelligent and insightful comments of users like Balbinus and Ian Absentia.

Quote from: ChalkLineIt's sad to see you go JimBob, but I think that the position is inflexible on this banning.

Thankyou for your friendly comments, and I think that yes, the decision is final.

Lastly, I would say that I am glad to see here, and on rpg.net, that this has generated so much discussion of moderation policies on forums. Like running game groups, this is something which we actually do a lot, but really stumble our way through, and it's worthwhile to have discussions of it.

I am sad that it is leading to acrimony here and on rpg.net, warnings and threats of banning for users at rpg.net. Despite the way I've been characterised by some users at rpg.net, I do not want chaos and acrimony. I just want lively interesting discussions.

Likewise, I do not support anyone saying they'll leave rpg.net, or scale back their participation there, because of this. rpg.net is more than a few moderators, good or bad. A forum is only as good as the posts to it, the conversations people have. So make good posts, start interesting threads, and the forum will be good for you. If a forum is worth leaving because of its moderation, then it's worth staying in because of its posters.

Don't leave rpg.net. Post to it, start interesting threads, and enjoy it.

Which should not, of course, prevent your posting to and starting threads on therpgsite. You can do both.

I may write something asking the mods to close the rpg.net thread, assuming it's now more acrimony than discussion. There certainly needs to be discussion of moderation; there should not be acrimony, and people leaving what is a good site.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAnd, put plainly, there are moments where I've seen you, Tony, basically say that same kind of thing.  And, on some (not all, but some) of those occasions, I've laughed like a hyena, agreed completely, and then twitched.

Subtle distinction to be made:  I don't believe in discounting people.  People constantly surprise me.  If I discounted them I'd miss a lot of interesting stuff.

I totally believe in discounting particular ideas.  I'm not going to tell Joe the Hypothetical "You will never have a good idea, so shut up and go away."  But I'll gladly say "This particular idea you're putting forth, right now?  It's crap for reasons X, Y and Z.  Dig deeper, or find a different thread to post in."

RPG-Net and the RPG-Site bracket my personal sense of the right way to deal with people and their ideas.  RPG-Site lets you attack both people and ideas.  RPG-Net lets you attack neither people nor ideas.  Neither of them provides an environment where ideas are subject to ruthless judgment and scrutiny, but people are cherished.

I just emailed the following to the mods and admins of rpg.net. I hope they'll publish it...

Dear users and mods of rpg.net, and therpgsite,

It's time to close the threads discussing my banning.

I am deeply-touched, and surprised, that my banning should be cared about or even noticed by so many users of these sites. Of course I don't feel I should have been banned, but the moderators act in the way they feel is best for the site as a whole. This is shaped by the reports, PMs and emails they get from us, the users of the site. The mods and admins are not your adversaries, they act according to what you tell them. So if I or anyone else am banned, it's because a lot of users wanted it that way. They respect the wishes of the users of the site, and I think we should, too.

Certainly everyone should continue to discuss the moderation, to PM and email moderators and admins about it. But from the forwarded parts of the Trouble Tickets thread discussing my banning, it seems that the discussion is generating more acrimony than insight. Like any other thread which is more nasty than helpful, it should be shut down.

Despite what some have said of me, I never wished for chaos, and nastiness. I simply wanted active, lively and interesting discussions. If a thread discussing my banning, or anything else, is active, lively and interesting, then let it go on forever! But if it's chaotic and nasty, then shut it down, shut it down.

I am disappointed to hear that some users are talking of leaving rpg.net, or scaling back their participation, because of this moderator decision. What you are forgetting is that a forum is nothing more than the sum of the posts to it. A forum is not the moderators, it is not the rules, it's not even the colour scheme - it's your posts to it, the conversations you have. You make a forum good by posting funny, interesting or informative replies to threads, and by making your own threads which will start such conversations. rpg.net and therpgsite are both good sites, they both have funny, interesting and informative conversations. Each site has its own style and feel, and one may suit you better than another. Hang around a bit at each and see which you like. You can choose either, neither, or both. But don't come or go from either based on one decision of moderators. Do not leave in anger and nastiness.

I'm asking the moderators to publish this letter in full in the relevant threads, and if the threads are more nasty than helpful, to close them down.

Any who wish to contact me can find me on therpgsite, my LJ, and of course by email, kyle3054@iprimus.com.au

Sincerely,
Kyle Schuant
aka JimBob

Quote from: TonyLBSubtle distinction to be made:

Fair enough.  But you see what I mean, I think, which is all I would ask for.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenIt's not fucking complicated.

You know, I always thought it was, now I realize that you are right. Before I became an occasional poster I lurked around TBP for some time. I've seen some of the worst the site has to offer. I used to think, that the good old days were filled with passionate folks who loved gaming and the carnage from some discussions were the natural byproduct of that passion.

I was wrong.

Sometimes folks are just wankers. There was a lot of shit going on, that made the place downright unfriendly. I do notice the change in the site. I realize that most folks like the change. More importantly, I think folks are really happy to be participating in a forum with some kind of control. For the majority, said control is perfectly acceptable.

I think JimBob's, style did not mesh with the  new outlook. I don't think he should have been banned. Truth be told he was just saying what a lot of folks, even those who can't stand him were thinking. This is not some kind of excuse. If the mods thought that he needed to change his posting style they should have explicitly told him. No beating around the bush - If you don't change you are out - and taken whatever fallout that occured.

I think the big change is that overt negativity or perceived negativity is no longer tolerated. There is a lot of passive aggresive shit going on there, but I think most folks would rather take than than any overt hostility. Watch how you say things has become an important element in how discussions are judged there, which seems to suit most of the posters.

Now, again, I think that JimBob was an interesting if abrasive poster. He said things that could be perceived - at cursory glance as negative - but here's thing, first glance is all that matters, when you want to keep things friendly.

I hope this ban is lifted, but than again, there's always this place, and I don't mean that in a second best kind of way.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Levi KornelsenFair enough.  But you see what I mean, I think, which is all I would ask for.

Totally.  The mods are not merely supposed to not cross that line, they're supposed to not approve of people who approach the line.  And oh yeah, I've approached that line :D

See now if more posts were David R's, then no-one would have to close threads ;)

But apparently over at The Big Purple, there are people getting warned and threatened with bans over shit they're saying for or against me, agaisnt each-other, and so on. And that's fucked, I don't want anyone banned over me, that would be too lame to bear.

QuoteThere is a lot of passive aggresive shit going on there, but I think most folks would rather take than than any overt hostility.

I am a man who values honesty.  It's just something that got drilled into me at some point, and it's never left.  

RPGnet doesn't.  They want the kind of weasel words and dishonest beating about the bush you get in press releases, beause it gives the appearance of civility, when really it's just words, and the intent is as clear as ever.

It's like the thread over in Roleplaying right now, about GURPS: WoD.  Someone linked the posts by Steve Jackson and Steve Wieck about the fallout between them.  And it was amusing to me because in my own head, I directly mapped them to the two RPG forums I've frequented in my lifetime.  Jackson's post fits well in keeping with the style here on theRPGsite:  straightforward, blunt, perhaps a bit rude and crass, but honest.  Wieck's post on the other hand, is exactly the kind of snide, condescending bilge I came to expect in RPGnet arguments in my time there.

And I find that sort of attitude a hell of a lot more off putting than some random dork calling me an idiot.  But the structure of RPGnet's rules and it's community have effectively encouraged exactly that kind of diplomatic bile.  

I'd rather a man sneer to my face and stab me in the chest, than smile to my face and stab me in the back when I've turned away.

Quote from: TonyLBSure, I'll buy that.  But that's a huge retreat from your original position:Are they misrepresenting their path as the only possible path?  If you say so.  I haven't seen anyone say the "necessary" thing, but it wouldn't surprise (or upset) me.  I'll take it on faith that they actually said that, and it's clearly not true.

Are they misrepresenting their motives for what they do?  I see no evidence to suggest it.  I think you're projecting.

So what you're suggesting instead, then, is that they're all idiots? Who somehow really and truly do believe that the RPG.net would fall to pieces if they did not govern it with the politics that they do?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThis is their mission statement:

"To keep the forums friendly and welcoming to as wide a range of users as possible."

Read that.  Really read it.  

I've read it. And there's something strangely absent - any mention of roleplaying games. Which is a funny thing to leave out. And I think that's what's causing some trouble, the Roleplaying Open - Tangency Open tension, and so on. There's a tension between those who think it's just a general bullshitting site, and those who think it's a roleplaying site.

The mission statement also looks suspiciously like, "create an emotionally safe environment," as per the petition of eyebeamz, redredderreddest, Curt and so on. Cessna mocked that once.

Quote from: JimBobOzCareful, Levi, rpg.net sometimes moderates you for what you said on another site. After all, from the bits of the Trouble Tickets thread people have forwarded me, they're saying, "go look at therpgsite, you can see what Jim Bob's like over there." So what you say here matters, and will contribute to decisions as to whether to warn, suspend, or ban you.

Be careful, mate.

As you already no doubt know, he has absolutely nothing to fear; that is a tactic they only use for people who they WANT to go after, and never against those who are part of the clique.
Proving again, that the whole idea that they all banned you reluctantly and with a heavy heart is utter bullshit. The only times they ban anyone "reluctantly" is when a total blow-out on behalf of one of their own makes it impossible for them to avoid banning him or her to avoid getting shown for the hypocrites they are in a way so blatant that none of their confabulations would be capable of denying it.

Quoterpg.net moderation is certainly imperfect, but in general is carried out with the intention of making it a civil and friendly place.

Well sure. And Mussolini governed Italy with the intention of making the trains run on time. In no way do good intentions over-ride or guarantee the absence of bad intentions.

I'm sure that like most fascists, they really do believe their way is better.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneI am a man who values honesty.  It's just something that got drilled into me at some point, and it's never left.  

RPGnet doesn't.  They want the kind of weasel words and dishonest beating about the bush you get in press releases, beause it gives the appearance of civility, when really it's just words, and the intent is as clear as ever.

It's like the thread over in Roleplaying right now, about GURPS: WoD.  Someone linked the posts by Steve Jackson and Steve Wieck about the fallout between them.  And it was amusing to me because in my own head, I directly mapped them to the two RPG forums I've frequented in my lifetime.  Jackson's post fits well in keeping with the style here on theRPGsite:  straightforward, blunt, perhaps a bit rude and crass, but honest.  Wieck's post on the other hand, is exactly the kind of snide, condescending bilge I came to expect in RPGnet arguments in my time there.

And I find that sort of attitude a hell of a lot more off putting than some random dork calling me an idiot.  But the structure of RPGnet's rules and it's community have effectively encouraged exactly that kind of diplomatic bile.  

I'd rather a man sneer to my face and stab me in the chest, than smile to my face and stab me in the back when I've turned away.

"I know your works. You are neither cold nor hot. So because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth. You can build your filthy world without me."

Well done, J Arcane, you've summed up everything I find despicable about the current atmosphere in RPG.net. Its  one that encourages slimy little backbiting turds who say one thing out of one corner of their filthy mouthes and mean another in their subtext, that use the rules as a weapon against their enemies, who are almost all better more honest men than they could ever be.

RPGPundit

Regarding fascism:

Before law school I did my undergrad in political science.  I remember studying fascism.  It's a difficult thing to talk about, to an extent, because history doesn't have as many examples of it as we would like (in the student of political theory sense).  It usually involves a dictator who has crafted a popular image about himself bordering on religious in fervor and intensity, where the leader is synonymous with the state.  The single biggest example of a fascist state was Italy under Mussolini, but obviously Nazi Germany qualifies as well.

To paint RPG.net's organization with a similar brush is...  amazing.  I think it shows a deep lack of perspective.  That the Pundit persona would do it isn't surprising - it's no different than the Stephen Colbert persona saying a humorous but comical thing, except in this case it's something offensive.  That other posters would put it forward, or agree with it, is surprising in a really unpleasant way ;\

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd I find that sort of attitude a hell of a lot more off putting than some random dork calling me an idiot.  But the structure of RPGnet's rules and it's community have effectively encouraged exactly that kind of diplomatic bile.  

Maybe. But folks over there are willing to live with it. They find the board both friendly and productive even though, you (me?) may not. Find a place you are comfortable with and be a productive member. Most of the users on TBP are happy with the place. And really, some folks engage in the behaviour you describe, others just want a friendly place to hang out.

Regards,
David R

To my surprise, I'm told they did publish my letter. I hope it calms the troubled waters a bit. A week from now it'll all be forgotten, I just didn't want any poor bastard banned in that week, or quitting the joint over such a lame fucking thing.

The best revenge for bad moderation is to post interesting, funny and informative stuff, so that they have to really struggle for a plausible excuse to arbitrarily ban you. And in the meantime, you get to enjoy the forum for its actual purpose - fun and informative discussion.

Hiya I signed up a hile back but this is my first post.

As somebody who generally posts on Tangency I really don't see a big divide between that and Roleplaying Open. The reason I post on Tangency more is that it's not as intense as Open and people can be a wee bit intimidating when it comes to theory crap. Saying that I'm not sure what my opinion on JimBobz banning is yet as I've not had much interaction.

Anyway sorry to jump in.

Actually I read your letter and I'm even less sure.

Quote from: Garry GAs somebody who generally posts on Tangency I really don't see a big divide between that and Roleplaying Open. The reason I post on Tangency more is -

If there were no divide, then you would not post on one, but not the other.

The Tangency/Roleplaying talk reminds me of the talk of the cliques on Tangency Open, or cliques anywhere. "Oh! We're not a clique! We accept anyone! Well, anyone who's just like us, anyway! Heehee!"

Quote from: JimBobOzIf there were no divide, then you would not post on one, but not the other.

Too easy and we all go for the easy. I post on Tangency because it's easy, especially when I'm at work, I read Open because it's interesting but I do tend towards the games I like and avoid theory because I just don't have the time. There is no real divide just a distinction in effort and since I mainly browse from work I go for least effort.

"long time listener, first time caller"

yeah, the recent banning has just rubbed me the wrong way, for some reason.  i had to walk away from rpg.net once before.  the pretentiousness of some posters, the snark, the condescending attitude, etc. just wore thin after a while.  (i think it was when everyone was sporting "kuma-tars")

there's some good shit there, and i'll probably go back in a few months or so.  maybe the "go play" stuff will have died out by then.  (we're gamers, we don't need to see all these ridiculous triangles everywhere announcing that fact.  well, except for kiero :rolleyes: save that shit for your car bumper or something)

the attitude over there is getting a bit. . . i dunno, odd.  the gaming side does feel to be competing with the tangency side, in that some will post in one but not the other.  wtf?  isn't it a gaming site?  

whatever.  i'll be here for a bit, hopefully longer.  

/beer-fuelled venting

Quote from: beeberthe attitude over there is getting a bit. . . i dunno, odd.  the gaming side does feel to be competing with the tangency side, in that some will post in one but not the other.  wtf?  isn't it a gaming site?  

IMHO, moderation issues aside, RPGnet has lost sight of its original purpose.  First and foremost, it is a gaming site.  I find it insane that people could forge long and fruitful posting histories without ever stepping foot into RP Open.  In some other sites that I frequent, being able to post in off-topic forums is a privilege earned by being a regular contributor to on-topic forums.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen...a mod there doesn't get to do that...

I just don't want to do it anymore.  Because, sometimes, I want to see someone get called a festering gob, and just enjoy the hell out of it.

But Darren MacLennan does it all the time, and still happily mods! Eric Brennan used to, too. Maybe you should unresign, and just ask them for lessons.

Added to the list of recent stupidity is they removed the 'rolls eyes smiley' from the board. I guess the implication someone doen't care for what you said was too much of a hardship for their delicate members to bear.

Quote from: BoyTypeRanmaAdded to the list of recent stupidity is they removed the 'rolls eyes smiley' from the board. I guess the implication someone doen't care for what you said was too much of a hardship for their delicate members to bear.

To be fair, even I quail at the abuse potential of the rolleyes smiley.

:-)

Quote from: Erik BoielleTo be fair, even I quail at the abuse potential of the rolleyes smiley.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen:rolleyes:

Reported!

I think this is not an emotionally safe environment with :rolleyes: available to users.

Quote from: JimBobOzI think this is not an emotionally safe environment with :rolleyes: available to users.

...Man, I don't think that even RPGnet is "an emotionally safe environment".  The rolly-eyes thing is, though, pretty much a pure snark device.

Which means that here, we should have a selection of several rolly-eyes emotes.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen...Man, I don't think that even RPGnet is "an emotionally safe environment".  The rolly-eyes thing is, though, pretty much a pure snark device.

Maybe so. What would I know? I'm "a bully and a thug"! I viciously offer people who dislike me, but are new in town, ways to find game groups. What a prick :D

Now give me your lunch money, you little bastard.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhich means that here, we should have a selection of several rolly-eyes emotes.

Haven't you ever clicked on "more" under the smilies during your reply? There are oodles of them...

Quote from: JimBobOzNow give me your lunch money, you little bastard.

:huhsign:

EDIT: Nevermind.  Figured it out.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen:huhsign:

Apparently on the TT thread about my banning, Patrick O'Duffy said I was "a bully and a thug."

Tyberious Funk amusingly linked to his LJ, where he talked about me. The following is as best as I recall it and only shows what I saw, could have been more behind the scenes, who knows:-

O'Duffy had been all bitter and angry in some thread, and he also said he was pissed off because he didn't have a game group. I said that if he didn't have a game group, he could use gamecircle.org to find one. He asked why I would want to help him find a group, since he hated me. I replied that I had nothing against him, whatever he thought of me, and that I would always try to help another gamer find a group. I think I put in a crack that he might not hate me and so many other people if he was actually gaming, life might look better. He told me I was a cunt, and that he was reporting himself for that personal attack.

During the course of a Trouble Tickets thread, I asked for his ban to be rescinded, and Eric Brennan at that time gave me the Minefield Warning, saying it was my fault O'Duffy was suspended. O'Duffy's a mate of his from White Wolf days, he was pissed off at having to suspend him, apparently.

O'Duffy went and posted about it in his LJ, giving my real name, and saying that if anyone was in Melbourne and met me, they should avoid gaming with me, and tell me I'm a cunt and smack me one.

I think that you have to be taking your online life rather seriously to do that.

In teasing him a bit about his bitterness, I should note that it's part of Australian - and British - culture to take the piss out of your mates - that is, to mock your friends gently and humorously - but at the same time to help them as best you can. Not all Australians and British are like this, of course. It's quite a working-class thing. The middle-classed, and the less sociable and more introverted people, tend not to do it.

To date, no-one seems to have taken O'Duffy's advice, I'm glad to say. Still, it's disturbing that a person would think that way. I sincerely wish him good gaming, I think he needs to get his anger out... I guess this is why some people never give their real names out online.

Quote from: JimBobOzI sincerely wish him good gaming, I think he needs to get his anger out... I guess this is why some people never give their real names out online.

If it is any consolation, I believe he may have finally found himself a group.  It's a shame though, given that he likes to play D&D I could have found him 2-3 possible groups 6 months earlier.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkIf it is any consolation, I believe he may have finally found himself a group.  

So he has a group, but he's still angry. So much for my theory, then! I guess he's just an angry person.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkIt's a shame though, given that he likes to play D&D I could have found him 2-3 possible groups 6 months earlier.

Yes, but then you might have been warned by the moderators and eventually banned, too. :cool:

Quote from: Divine HammerWhen I see mods do bans or suspensions over there, it always seems as though the mod is bleeding off a tiny bit of roiling, seething rage.  Maybe that's why, eh?

Yup.  Levi: Seriously, get lessons from Darren on how to be an asshole while modding.  You don't need to quit.  You can have your cake and eat it too.

Anywho.  I stopped posting to Tangency Open years ago, because I found that it was one of the most unfriendly environments I'd ever posted in.  This was after the Moderation crack-down, mind.

I just moved to RP Open because I wanted to talk about gaming.  Now it's just that and Other Media Open, for the most part.

Ian,

I broadly agree with your comments on Tangency.

I did think Cessna renaming the forum was rather funny incidentally.

Quote from: BalbinusI did think Cessna renaming the forum was rather funny incidentally.

In a way it's almost hopeful, because it shows a flexibility that I haven't seen in Mod-staff for years.

In another, it's depressing.  Because it shows a flexibility that I haven't seen in the Mod-staff for years.  And it's blatantly obvious that they know how rare it is for them to do something like apologize if they play it for humor like this.

Extraordinary numbers quoted over on TBP, which explain a great deal:

RPGSite Role-Playing Games:1,088 threads; 27,623 posts
Off Topic Discussion: 172 threads ; 3,521 posts

RPGnet Roleplaying Open, LARP, Actual Play, and PbP: 79,568 threads; 2,287,355 posts
Tangency Open: 122,913 threads; 3,073,816 posts

Put simply, it's not primarily a roleplaying site.  Once one realises that, a lot of other stuff starts to make a lot more sense.

Quote from: BalbinusExtraordinary numbers quoted over on TBP, which explain a great deal:

RPGSite Role-Playing Games:1,088 threads; 27,623 posts
Off Topic Discussion: 172 threads ; 3,521 posts

RPGnet Roleplaying Open, LARP, Actual Play, and PbP: 79,568 threads; 2,287,355 posts
Tangency Open: 122,913 threads; 3,073,816 posts

Put simply, it's not primarily a roleplaying site.  Once one realises that, a lot of other stuff starts to make a lot more sense.

And Nina (Who's Nina?  I've never seen her Mod anything before...) almost immediately tried to shut down and shunt off conversation about it.

Quote from: RedFoxAnd Nina (Who's Nina?  I've never seen her Mod anything before...) almost immediately tried to shut down and shunt off conversation about it.

I think Nina primarily mods Tangency, and to be fair she did invite people to start a new thread on it if they wished.

I've encountered Nina a couple of times, she always seems to me like good people so I imagine if someone wanted to start a new thread she would honour that.  As someone who I think mostly posts in Tangency though it doesn't surprise me she's not overwhelmed with joy at the discussion.

Quote from: BalbinusExtraordinary numbers quoted over on TBP, which explain a great deal:

RPGSite Role-Playing Games:1,088 threads; 27,623 posts
Off Topic Discussion: 172 threads ; 3,521 posts

RPGnet Roleplaying Open, LARP, Actual Play, and PbP: 79,568 threads; 2,287,355 posts
Tangency Open: 122,913 threads; 3,073,816 posts

Put simply, it's not primarily a roleplaying site.  Once one realises that, a lot of other stuff starts to make a lot more sense.

Do those numbers include Gaming Gatherings, Ads & Promos, Game Design, Auctions &etc? That's another 30,000-odd gaming related threads. How about the discussion of columns and reviews?

There's no doubt that Tangency is a huge part of RPG.net, but I think those numbers are a little misleading.

You know what? Maybe it'd be good to leave the purple hate behind and get on with our own lives. If you want to escape the shadow of RPG.net, I think you guys are going to have to be the ones to take the first step.

Ned

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyYou know what? Maybe it'd be good to leave the purple hate behind and get on with our own lives. If you want to escape the shadow of RPG.net, I think you guys are going to have to be the ones to take the first step.

Ned

Y'know, I can only speak for myself (but I think JimBob and Levi at the very least have a similar view) but I like rpg.net.  Whatever impression Nina got in the TT thread, I question the Moderation policy of the site because I care about it.

Quote from: RedFoxY'know, I can only speak for myself (but I think JimBob and Levi at the very least have a similar view) but I like rpg.net.  Whatever impression Nina got in the TT thread, I question the Moderation policy of the site because I care about it.

And I question the site's atmosphere because I like it.

Then take it up there.

Ned

Quote from: RedFoxY'know, I can only speak for myself (but I think JimBob and Levi at the very least have a similar view) but I like rpg.net.  Whatever impression Nina got in the TT thread, I question the Moderation policy of the site because I care about it.

Quite, I don't hate the Purple, if I did I wouldn't care about the direction it seems to be going.  I rather like the place, which is why I would like to see it focus a bit more on the gaming which is what I think it was originally all about.

On the numbers, he clearly compares Roleplaying Open with Tangency Open, so all the various other fora are not in there (including of course the other Tangency fora).  I don't think that affects the main point particularly.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyThen take it up there.

Ned

We have, I'm not sure why that means we shouldn't be allowed to discuss it here also.

I'm just fed up with the bitching. It doesn't contribute anything to this place. I thought this was to an alternative to RPG.net, not a kind of backroom for pissing and groaning about it.

Ned

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyDo those numbers include Gaming Gatherings, Ads & Promos, Game Design, Auctions &etc? That's another 30,000-odd gaming related threads. How about the discussion of columns and reviews?

There's no doubt that Tangency is a huge part of RPG.net, but I think those numbers are a little misleading.

You know what? Maybe it'd be good to leave the purple hate behind and get on with our own lives. If you want to escape the shadow of RPG.net, I think you guys are going to have to be the ones to take the first step.

Ned

If you do add those other numbers it makes them almost dead even in comparison. The off-topic and other non gaming discussion is as large as the gaming discussion, and my problem is that it's been argued that this has no effect on the place. They had to make a special forum for discussion on hot political issues, but this has no bearing on the site's tone or emphases.

As a person who was the 240th person to reigster a name on the present forum and has visited and read posts there nearly every day and even before that, I disagree.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyI'm just fed up with the bitching. It doesn't contribute anything to this place. I thought this was to an alternative to RPG.net, not a kind of backroom for pissing and groaning about it.

Ned

It's one thread, and some of the folk in this thread have been banned so can't discuss it there.  There is a fine discussion on the good and bad points of class based systems in the main forum though that I can happily recommend if you have any views on that...

Besides, I think you're seeing bitching where I'm seeing discussion, only a minority of posters here have any hostility.  Most of us are just chatting about it in a friendly fashion.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenTo Pundit, there simply are people that want to talk about gaming that deserve to be sneered at.  That ought to be told "Look, shut the fuck up, you festering gob."

  That's not the only goal though.  There's also screening out people who make jokes about the Pope and who think reading Drizzt novels is a waste of time.

  It's one thing to want to make the place as inclusive and middle of the road as possible (though it makes me shudder when I realise that there are people out there who aspire to blandness), but it's another to make all of these weird decisions about what the widest possible audience can tolerate.

  At this point, RPGnet is blander than network TV in the US.  You can't be mean about anyone... it's slowly turning into Disneyland.  At this point, mainstream US TV tolerates more outlandish opinions than RPGnet does.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyI'm just fed up with the bitching. It doesn't contribute anything to this place. I thought this was to an alternative to RPG.net, not a kind of backroom for pissing and groaning about it.

Ned

What Balbinus said.  Also, like it or not a lot of RPG.net diaspora migrated here.  Including me.  RPGPundit himself was ChefKyle at rpg.net.  This site doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Websites are communities, and what's essentially happened is that a number of people here were or are active members of The Purple's community.  However, between the time we committed ourselves to the site and the time we left the community's values started to shift, resulting in many of us being forcibly ejected despite being the same people we've always been, and others just realising that we don't want to be a part of that community any more.

Bonds are forged, habits are settled into, friendships made.

It's not easy to wrench yourself from a community.

Well, okay, whatever. I was looking for a clean break. I guess this isn't the place for that.

Ned

Quote from: RedFoxWhat Balbinus said.  Also, like it or not a lot of RPG.net diaspora migrated here.  Including me.  RPGPundit himself was ChefKyle at rpg.net.  This site doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Correction: JimBob was ChefKyle. Pundit was Nisarg.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyWell, okay, whatever. I was looking for a clean break. I guess this isn't the place for that.

Ned

Maybe not in this one thread, but there is the rest of the site.

Quote from: JongWKCorrection: JimBob was ChefKyle. Pundit was Nisarg.

Sorry, right.  Nisarg.  Well, it shows that they're both rpg.net diaspora.  ;)

BTW, the thread on rpg.net regarding the removal of the rolleyes smiley is full of happy happy joy joy posts.

Why in nine hells could anybody ever want moderation?
What is it´s purpose other than mind-policing?

Total bullshit, that´s what moderation is.

theRPGsite shows it every day that moderation is a stupid concept.

Quote from: SettembriniWhy in nine hells could anybody ever want moderation?
What is it´s purpose other than mind-policing?

Total bullshit, that´s what moderation is.

theRPGsite shows it every day that moderation is a stupid concept.

I think that there are at least three very legitimate uses of Moderation:

• Keeping conversations in fora on-topic.  This includes stuff like moving threads or trimming sideline conversations off into new threads.  General pruning work.
• Curtailing spam.  Nobody wants to see a good discussion forum go the way of usenet.
• Dealing with extremely bad problems such as illegalities or things bound to get the site caught up in a law suit, such as online stalking cases.

Yep, and none of the above has ever caused problems. Actually that´s more maintenance than modding.

But why in hell does a thread ever have to be closed?
Thats the stupidmost concept of all childish forum banhammering.

Closed threads, I laugh at you!

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyDo those numbers include Gaming Gatherings, Ads & Promos, Game Design, Auctions &etc? That's another 30,000-odd gaming related threads. How about the discussion of columns and reviews?

There's no doubt that Tangency is a huge part of RPG.net, but I think those numbers are a little misleading.

You know what? Maybe it'd be good to leave the purple hate behind and get on with our own lives. If you want to escape the shadow of RPG.net, I think you guys are going to have to be the ones to take the first step.

Way back when I did my number comparison, Tangency accounted for more posts and traffic than the entire rest of the site combined (something like 60% Tangency, 40% everything else).  Of course, I was also told by the modstaff that the observation was meaningless.

Hey, it's open ground to bitch about Forge crap, I don't see why it shouldn't be free to get some stuff off our chests about RPGnet too.

Quote from: BalbinusI think Nina primarily mods Tangency, and to be fair she did invite people to start a new thread on it if they wished.

I've encountered Nina a couple of times, she always seems to me like good people so I imagine if someone wanted to start a new thread she would honour that.  As someone who I think mostly posts in Tangency though it doesn't surprise me she's not overwhelmed with joy at the discussion.

Historically, once a thread is crapped or locked, the mods do not allow a new thread to be started on the topic.  They make this suggestion, but it is an empty one.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyWell, okay, whatever. I was looking for a clean break. I guess this isn't the place for that.

Ned

Dude, I got a "Casablanca In Space" thread in Role-Playing.

Quote from: GabrielHistorically, once a thread is crapped or locked, the mods do not allow a new thread to be started on the topic.  They make this suggestion, but it is an empty one.

And that thread as well as the original one have both been locked by Darren.  Current controversy over, it seems.

Quote from: RedFoxAnd that thread as well as the original one have both been locked by Darren.  Current controversy over, it seems.

I think the original thread had run its course to be honest, it was probably time to close it given TT is not a general discussion forum.

As for the other one, once the mods had made it clear changes to Tangency were not an option what point did it serve?

The only thing I regretted is one poster in the Tangency thread said he thought open had become unwelcoming due to the preponderance of theory threads and threads hostile to traditional forms of gaming, not for anything to do with Tangency, and I think that merited further discussion.

Quote from: BalbinusThe only thing I regretted is one poster in the Tangency thread said he thought open had become unwelcoming due to the preponderance of theory threads and threads hostile to traditional forms of gaming, not for anything to do with Tangency, and I think that merited further discussion.

I was trying to come up with a way to say "Then you, sir, are precisely who we need to stay in Open, so as to try and use this site to discuss roleplaying games" without getting myself a three-day ban for attacking people who abandon RPG Open for Tangency or something.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI was trying to come up with a way to say "Then you, sir, are precisely who we need to stay in Open, so as to try and use this site to discuss roleplaying games" without getting myself a three-day ban for attacking people who abandon RPG Open for Tangency or something.

The trick is to avoid saying "Then you, sir, are precisely the kind of Tangency Traitor who we need to stay in Open, so as to try and use this site to discuss roleplaying games"

That would get you banned.  Though the use of capitalisation might get you hired by Palladium.

I thought it was a sad post actually, ma'at seems like a good guy, if he's getting put off Open then that's a problem.

Now it looks like they removed the :rolleyes:  smiley over @ RPG.net .

Good grief, even the smilies are getting banned. :D

Quote from: McrowNow it looks like they removed the :rolleyes: smiley over @ RPG.net .
 
Good grief, even the smilies are getting banned. :D

I don't know how some of the moderators are going to be able to post ban notifications without it :D

As I recall I used the eye-rolling smiley exactly once over at RPGnet.  I n response I got back an even snarkier reply and a giant sized eye-rolly smiley that was puking out regular sized eye rolling smilies.  It was all animated and everything.

Quote from: jrientsAs I recall I used the eye-rolling smiley exactly once over at RPGnet.  I n response I got back an even snarkier reply and a giant sized eye-rolly smiley that was puking out regular sized eye rolling smilies.  It was all animated and everything.

Cool.  We should get that smiley here.

Quote from: BalbinusCool.  We should get that smiley here.

I got a co-worker who is a big smiley freak.  She's looking for it as I type this.

[Utter BPS slag-off text to follow in spoilers...]

Spoiler

I'm looking forward to Lord Minx stumbling around RP Open, shivering and sick, trying to get his next hit of eye-rolling smiley. As much as I hate the name he's Pundit-defined Swine, and I have trouble remembering a disagreement where he didn't use that fucking thing at every opportunity.

[/All done!]

I think it works over here, we're that kind of place. But its presence at Big Purple was at odds with the new mod groupthink.

I have nothing to add this thread except for this:

:emot-taco:

Quote from: Abyssal MawI have nothing to add this thread except for this:

:emot-taco:

Ooh, it is almost time for lunch.

Quote from: RedFoxY'know, I can only speak for myself (but I think JimBob and Levi at the very least have a similar view) but I like rpg.net.  Whatever impression Nina got in the TT thread, I question the Moderation policy of the site because I care about it.

Yep, I like it, too.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyThen take it up there.

Mate, I can't. They banned me. Did you even glance through this thread?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's one thing to want to make the place as inclusive and middle of the road as possible (though it makes me shudder when I realise that there are people out there who aspire to blandness), but it's another to make all of these weird decisions about what the widest possible audience can tolerate.

Well, I've no argument with that goal, as such. But let's have a look at what Levi told us (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=47095&postcount=211) was the mission statement of the mods there.

"To keep the forums friendly and welcoming to as wide a range of users as possible."

Note there's nothing about roleplaying there. Levi specifically goes on to say that my mockery of Bitter Non-Gamers contributed to my banning. The site must be inclusive of all - even those who have no interest in the topic of the site.

Why? Should my local pub have a corner for the non-drinkers? Should the restaurant have some tables for people who refuse to eat food there? Should the local sports centre set aside a court for people who don't play any sports? Should the Army have a Pacifists' Battalion? Should the library have a set of shelves full of picture books for the illiterate? Should stormfront.org have a subforum for Jews to post about Talmudic issues?

It's nice to be inclusive, but do we have to include even those who have no interest in the topic of the site? Why then have rpg.net, or groomingdogs.net, or republicans.com, or whatever? Let's just merge all the forums in the world in OneBigFuckingForum.net! We won't even have an official language! I can post in English, Settembrini can answer in German, Luther in Italian, Mtumbe in Swahili, it'll be very inclusive! We can have a subforum for every topic imaginable, someone get the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, for each entry, one subforum! Won't that be fun?

The problem is that they are confusing being welcoming with being unfocused. It's entirely possible to be open and welcoming of new membership, while at the same time keeping the focus on the particular topic of the place. My girlfriend has a volleyball team. They welcome new members. But the new members have to be able to play volleyball. If the person says, "I have no interest in volleyball, but I still want to hang around" - well, they wouldn't say that, because that's ridiculous.

This would be a better mission statement for them,

"To keep the forums friendly and welcoming to as wide a range of users, having an interest in roleplaying games, as possible."

It's not really rpg.net otherwise, but GeneralDiscussion.net.

Quote from: RedFoxBTW, the thread on rpg.net regarding the removal of the rolleyes smiley is full of happy happy joy joy posts.

It's insane. In most of Tangency, they're only one click away from scat pr0n. People discuss anal sex, and Japanese schoolgirls' panties, and German cannibals, and - but ZOMFG not the rolleyes smilie that might offend someone! What the fuck?

I think I started this roll eyes smiley thing, having been the first post I ever remember seeing mention it. I just got sick of the way a couple posters used it, I vented my spleen about it in a semi-related post, and now...

My merest utterance moves mountains, it seems. That's really quite awesome.

You know, the big purple says it wants to keep the forums open to a wide variety of users, when in reality it's onl;y open to ONE type of user, the kind of person who can stand the fetid, putrid stench of it's mods arrogance and hypocrisy.

Unless you can stomach a lot of arrogance, you're not cut out to be a user there.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyI'm just fed up with the bitching. It doesn't contribute anything to this place. I thought this was to an alternative to RPG.net, not a kind of backroom for pissing and groaning about it.

Ned

If RPG.net would consider a forum for the purposes of flaming. I think it would help solve many of their issues and prevent the snark and constant reporting that are taking place now. Right now they are completely against the idea stating why should they create such a forum people who flame should go elseware. I really hate that attitude. They manage a site that will, because the nature of people and message boards, will generate flames. Instead of letting the flames burn out in a controlled enviroment, they force them onto other peoples boards like this one. I think that is irresponcable and unfair.

I mostly agree with the rest of your post, except that I think each of these questions has a differing answer.

Quote from: JimBobOzShould my local pub have a corner for the non-drinkers?

Perhaps, what else goes on at your local pub? Do they have clubs that meet there or sports teams after games? I've known a number of non-drinking folks to go to pubs to listen to music. Similarly, pubs are now mandated to have non-smoking areas in most areas of the US.

QuoteShould the restaurant have some tables for people who refuse to eat food there?

Actually, this one brings up the point of the patrons not simply refusing to eat, but actively bitching about the people who ARE eating, which a lot of Tangency seems to do on rpg.net.  Should the non-eaters be allowed to constantly bug the fuck out of the eating patrons?

QuoteShould the local sports centre set aside a court for people who don't play any sports?

Actually a local rec center that had a non-sporting games area would be quite welcomed by me.  I don't play any sports but likewise have no public place to play chess or any other activity that I enjoy.

QuoteShould the Army have a Pacifists' Battalion?

That would be the chaplains and medical services?

QuoteShould the library have a set of shelves full of picture books for the illiterate?

They already do, my friend. It's called the Children's Section.

QuoteShould stormfront.org have a subforum for Jews to post about Talmudic issues?

I still need some convincing that the stormfront idiots should exist.

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's insane. In most of Tangency, they're only one click away from scat pr0n. People discuss anal sex, and Japanese schoolgirls' panties, and German cannibals, and - but ZOMFG not the rolleyes smilie that might offend someone! What the fuck?

To be fair, perhaps the Mods are just trying to protect us from ourselves.  The rolleyes smiley probably falls under sedition laws.  I mean, look at the little bastard -> :rolleyes: If that isn't the face of evil, I don't know what is!

:fhtagn:

Quote from: BoyTypeRanma:fhtagn:

That's just damn cute!!

Quote from: PhishStyxThat's just damn cute!!

[drift]I think so too![/drift]

Over in Role-Playing, we're doing what they don't.

:mr-t:

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Over in Role-Playing, we're doing what they don't.

:mr-t:

I love it when a plan comes together!

Quote from: JimBobOzIAgain, it's a pity. I think it's a fine site with many interesting discussions on it. I'm also saddened that this'll be more "evidence" for RPGPundit's mad ideas about Swine Conspiracies.

Sadly, I was right (http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/549289615/item.html?nextdate=last).

Never assume a conspiracy where incompetence and whim could explain it as well.

Quote from: JimBobOzSadly, I was right (http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/549289615/item.html?nextdate=last).

Never assume a conspiracy where incompetence and whim could explain it as well.

I don't understand.
The incompetent cannot conspire to act upon their whims?

:piss2::oreo: :wizard:

Oh, God.  He even invoked "Truth", with a capital "T" and that rhymes with "P" and that stands for "Poop".  How embarrassing.

!i!

Quote from: JimBobOzSadly, I was right (http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/549289615/item.html?nextdate=last).

Never assume a conspiracy where incompetence and whim could explain it as well.

Yeah, I gotta go with Occam's Razor on this one.  It's an extremely easy pitfall to fall into.

Oh, and it wasn't just Levi.  That's the mission statement in the Rules & Guidelines post, stickyed for everyone to see.  I brought it up in the TT thread, but got shouted down for it by Nina (my questioning whether rpg.net was officially going to be a general fora site instead of an rpg-oriented one due to a comment from an admin was met by Nina's "Come on!" which is ironic given how much it called out for a now-absent rolleyes smiley) and then the thread was locked.

Clearly there's a community split in the offing.  Now you have people who only post in RPG Open and never in Tangency and people who post only in Tangency but never in Open.  It's pulling RPGnet in two different directions.

A pox on their house anyway, I've scrambled my password and I'm out.

JonA is giving up modding at RPG.net as well. A pity, I always liked him as a mod.

Quote from: ChalkLineJonA is giving up modding at RPG.net as well.

Wow.

Quote from: ChalkLineJonA is giving up modding at RPG.net as well.

What, again? ;) He's quit and returned at least twice now in the time I've been there.
 
[Epiphany]
 
I think I've finally figured out what has been bugging me at RPGNet for some time - and to my surprise it's not the Moderators. Not even the JudgeDread-a-likes (much).
 
I glanced at a Gay-Marriage discussion earlier (not that I'm either, but Spaulding had posted and he's usually worth a read) and saw more swathes of red text, directed at one user who'd posted something that could easily be construed as "Gays are promiscuous". But instead of posting asking for clarification, someone hit the Report function. Several someone's, if the Moderator replies are accurate. Then it dawned on me - it's not the moderators who are the problem there, they're doing a job. Its the band of people lurking somewhere in the background who lack the testicular fortitude to stand up and say something but instead run to the Moderators crying at every minor upset. Hell, I wouldnt be surpised if some of these people sent complaint reports about stuff that didn't even affect them, like the slimly little teachers pet in school who ratted on everyone and got his head flushed down the toilet at the end of every term.
 
It's not the admins, the moderators or the rules - it's the segment of the userbase who are demanding enforcement of the rules over minor infractions that are the problem IMO - and until the Mods have the warewithall to say "FFS grow a spine!" to them, RPGnet runs the risk of becoming sterilised in every sense of the word - which is a shame because it's a big site and there are a lot of good folks over there whose posts I enjoy reading.
 
[/Epiphany]

Actually, there was one thread on TT recently (it's probably still on the front page) where a poster asked for a thread to be locked.  The second sentence of their post was something like "I haven't posted in the thread at all, but I got sucked into reading it, and I think it's getting nasty."  Wah?

So, yeah, I think you have a point there, O'Borg.

Quote from: O'BorgWhat, again? ;) He's quit and returned at least twice now in the time I've been there.
 
[Epiphany]
 
It's not the admins, the moderators or the rules - it's the segment of the userbase who are demanding enforcement of the rules over minor infractions that are the problem IMO - and until the Mods have the warewithall to say "FFS grow a spine!" to them, RPGnet runs the risk of becoming sterilised in every sense of the word - which is a shame because it's a big site and there are a lot of good folks over there whose posts I enjoy reading.
 
[/Epiphany]

OTOH, I think I remember posters being warned or suspended for calling other people on their (perceived or not) shit. The reason given at these times was 'If you're offended by something, report it. Don't get antagonistic'.

Quote from: WeeklyOTOH, I think I remember posters being warned or suspended for calling other people on their (perceived or not) shit. The reason given at these times was 'If you're offended by something, report it. Don't get antagonistic'.

I was about to say the same thing. In fact, I've seen that statement from moderators numerous times now. The moderators have made it clear that members are not supposed to interact in any way that is not completely pacified in some Stepford sort of fashion.

I will have to say this place seems a lot less... stiff?

Quote from: O'BorgIt's not the admins, the moderators or the rules - it's the segment of the userbase who are demanding enforcement of the rules over minor infractions that are the problem IMO

It's what I was getting at in my letter to rpg.net and therpgsite. Looking back, I could have phrased it a lot better. The first purpose of the letter was to be a bucket of cold water - put out the flames, and cool down the feverishly fearful heads. Just today I got a PM from someone about my banning, and they began their message with "I just thought I'd mention this, but I don't want it out where the RPG.net mods are doing their websearches for stuff about this." To them, as well as RPGPundit with his conspiracy theories, I say, "relax, mate."

The second purpose of the letter was to say something like you've said. I genuinely think that the moderators at rpg.net, as at any largeish site, respond to emails and PMs from their users. Now, users messaging moderators on boards is like people writing their Members of Parliament - hardly anyone bothers, so for every 30,000 people there are 10 to 30 who do all the writing - and those 10 to 30 loud people influence policy, because the person naturally assumes those 10-30 stand for 10,000 to 30,000.

Of course, another human tendency is to listen the most to people whose opinions are like your own. So we have an imaginary moderator, Moe. Moe presides over a forum where the rules say that swearing should "be a spice, not the main course," and that there shouldn't be pr0n posted - but the rules don't specify how much is too much swearing, and what is pr0n. So it's up to Moe's judgment. Moe doesn't like swearing, but the forum users swear a lot. But then a few people come along who don't like it, and every time someone says, "fuck", they hit the report button. Pretty soon Moe is warning and suspending people for swearing a lot, and when challenged, he says, "but it offends some people, I get heaps of reports about it." On the other hand, Moe quite likes h4wt chixxor pics, so when a few people come along and hit the report button for those, he says, "these do not violate forum policy, you'll have to learn to live with it."

Moderating is like GMing - when the rules are not clear, a ruling must be made, and that ruling will be made partly because of what the noisy people at the place are saying, and partly because of the moderator/GM's personal tastes and style.

Forum users cannot of course affect the moderators' personal tastes and style. But they can affect what gets reported, and/or what gets praised. They can write to them.

So that was what I tried to have between the lines in my letter - you, the users, create the "culture" of the forum by your style of posting, and by the reports, praise and discursive letters you write to the moderators. Just as in a game group, you the gamer affect the style of the game by your own behaviour, and by the discussions you have with the GM. If you say nothing, then the GM will just listen to that one noisy guy who's always complaining.

I would not advise abandoning any forum which holds any interest for you. If you find it interesting, but with imperfect moderation - then stay, and improve it. If you want interesting threads, then post one. If you want thoughtful and amusing responses to your stuff, post thoughtful and amusing responses to other people's stuff. If you want the moderators to run the place differently, write them and tell them.

The current culture of therpgsite has come about because of all the people who wrote to RPGPundit to tell him he's a fucking legend; combined with his personality, regarding himself as a fucking legend, we got this place. The current culture of rpg.net has come about because of all the people who wrote to the moderators complaining about someone calling elves "gay" to say they were weak and silly, or complaining about snarky posts, and wanting it all to be an "emotionally safe environment"; combined with the "play nice, children" personalities of a couple of the mods, we got rpg.net as it is today.

Members of any community are those who truly decide its culture and style. Some of the moderators consider themselves very important, but really they're not. Some of them think of themselves as Great Leaders Speaking the Truth (see for example RPGPundit). Some of them think of themselves as Stout Warriors Holding Back the Tide of Nastiness (see for example Curt and Cessna). But the truth is that on any board of any significant size, these moderators are simply an expression of the users of the board - of the ones who bother writing to them.

You don't contribute anything to the culture of a forum by worrying about moderators doing web searches to find your posts criticising them.

It's all a question of whether you think of forums as an active entertainment, like a conversation, or as a passive entertainment, like watching tv. Are you here to contribute, or just to watch?

Quote from: O'BorgIt's not the admins, the moderators or the rules - it's the segment of the userbase who are demanding enforcement of the rules over minor infractions that are the problem IMO - and until the Mods have the warewithall to say "FFS grow a spine!" to them, RPGnet runs the risk of becoming sterilised in every sense of the word - which is a shame because it's a big site and there are a lot of good folks over there whose posts I enjoy reading.

No, it's the mods.  If the mods would allow the users to tell fuckheads that they're being fuckheads, then I predict 98% of reports (and 50% of passive-aggressive horseshit) would vanish in a flash.

KoOS

Just out of curiousity, what do people hate most about prg.net?

The moderation, Nox. As if you hadn't read the thread. :rolleyes:

Quote from: JimBobOzBut the truth is that on any board of any significant size, these moderators are simply an expression of the users of the board - of the ones who bother writing to them.

Except those who criticize.  That's the biggest problem, honestly.  And that's why I made such a big deal in TT about discussion threads being pre-emptively shut down there.

It sounded like Cessna took that complaint to heart, but I guess we'll see.

QuoteIt's not the admins, the moderators or the rules - it's the segment of the userbase who are demanding enforcement of the rules over minor infractions that are the problem IMO

It´s shamuses and blockwart all over the place. It´s fascism, pure and simple.
Fucktarded people who report things, and delusional people who respond to it.

The pure concept of reporting something behind the back of the involved person is fascism.

I said that way back then. They laughed at me.

Quote from: SettembriniThe pure concept of reporting something behind the back of the involved person is fascism.

I imagine a large variety of furniture screaming joyfully while Pee-wee Herman comes into the room saying "Her ha!  Fascism is the word of the day!  Yay!"

If there was ever a true, distilled essence of fascism it's reporting a thread on a message board.

A I remember a guy on a french RPG usenet group once reported me to the FBI and my ISP because I said that I didn't think having sex with corpses was immoral.

Quote from: SettembriniThe pure concept of reporting something behind the back of the involved person is fascism.

I said that way back then. They laughed at me.

What?  Back in the 1930s?  How old are you?

By the way, you're confusing a symptom with the disease.

!i!

Senator: "You are no more fit to rule Rome than your nephew Caligula was!"
Claudius: "I agree."
Senator: "Then what's the difference between you and him?"
Claudius: "He would not have agreed, and your head would be on the end of a spear for having said behind his back what you say to my face."

RPGPundit

Quote from: C.W.RichesonIf there was ever a true, distilled essence of fascism it's reporting a thread on a message board.

Old Orwell said that it was "a boot stamping into a face - forever." But what would stupid Orwell know about fascism, he only fought in the Spanish Civil War and lived through WWII...

The true "distilled essence" of fascism is that you cannot escape it. It is a totalitarian form of government - note the "total" in that word. They have total control over every aspect of your life, and their knowledge of your actions and words is total. There is no escape. A message board on the internet does not qualify. One mouse-click and you escape.

CW, we have a perfectly good English language which has many words with a diversity and degrees of meaning. It's entirely possible to express your meaning without getting carried away.

It reminds me of a protestor's description of the police holding back the crowd with barriers, and sending groups of police into the crowd to arrest ringleaders. "It was a massacre!" Yes, a massacre in which no shots were fired, and no-one was killed.

I'm further reminded of PETA's description of the annual killing of hundreds of millions of chickens as a "holocaust."

When writing or speaking persuasively, you want to use your words to evoke emotion and thought. Using extreme words when they do not correctly describe what's happened evokes not emotion and thought, but laughter. The people you were trying to persuade now thinks you're a fool, and dismisses what you've said. You fail to persuade them.

We have a very fine English language. Let's use it.

QuoteThe place can be interesting to read, even if I can't post.

You can also just make a new account and then snicker at the mods from behind it. :)

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm further reminded of PETA's description of the annual killing of hundreds of millions of chickens as a "holocaust."

A fowl act indeed...




...I'll get me coat :D

Quote from: RedFoxYou can have your cake and eat it too.

Yes.  I can. (http://gamecraft.7.forumer.com/index.php)

Good Luck with your new venture Levi! It's hard to say if I'm creative or articulate enough to contribute to the types of conversations you want to have there, but you got my account and hopes I'll have something really mind blowing to say at some point.

Quote from: JamesVGood Luck with your new venture Levi!

Thanks!

Quote from: JamesVIt's hard to say if I'm creative or articulate enough to contribute to the types of conversations you want to have there,

Bah.

Walk into Deconstruction and tell us something cool about your game.  We'll dig.  Maybe we'll strike gold, maybe not.  No big deal.

Quote from: SettembriniThe pure concept of reporting something behind the back of the involved person is fascism.

I said that way back then. They laughed at me.

In the interests of full disclosure, I'm laughing at you for saying it now, too.

C'mon. Fascism? It's words on a screen, bro.

Go outside. The sun is shining. You'll feel better.

Quote from: JimBobOzWe have a very fine English language. Let's use it.

I agree with everything you said.  Why are you quoting me?  I was mocking the use of the word fascism, as I've done before in this thread.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonI agree with everything you said.  Why are you quoting me?  I was mocking the use of the word fascism, as I've done before in this thread.

I know. But others weren't. I quoted you as a response to and development of what you said, not as a rebuke to you.

Quote from: laffingboyIn the interests of full disclosure, I'm laughing at you for saying it now, too.

C'mon. Fascism? It's words on a screen, bro.

Go outside. The sun is shining. You'll feel better.

What if he's a vampire?

Quote from: Dominus NoxWhat if he's a vampire?

Then I'll feel better. ;)

Quote from: laffingboyThen I'll feel better. ;)

:rotfl:

Thanks guys, this thread was an interesting read.  I only found out about this ban yesterday and this thread and the long RPG.net thread gave me something to read while I was supposed to be working. :nono:  The first thing I thought when I discovered JimBob had been banned was, "How could they ban the guy who created the term Cheetoism?"

The claims of sexism and racism were never substantiated in that thread.  Many of the links that various people did to JB's alleged offenses were fairly poor examples.  JimBob, I remember reading the thread at the time when you snarked at SteveD for his "We get together and create awesomeness" contribution to the discussion about building a working group.  I like SteveD and his posts, but you were right on the money, I think.  That comment was worse than unhelpful, it could actually make people believe their group is irreparably dysfunctional when it isn't.  Your tone was more aggressive than I would have posted, sure.  Still, I don't think it should have been held up as an example of transgressions worth banning.

Since I don't read their announcements very often, I didn't even know about Rule 10 until this whole mess.  Personally, I'm not really against it in theory.  But I think it's stupid to hold it up as an iron-clad rule like many people are doing.  "Of course he was banned for breaking rules!  He broke Rule 10!"  Except Rule 10 effectively means: "It's against the rules to not break the rules if you do it long enough."

I used to frequent Tangency there.  I've never been a prolific RPG.net poster, I mainly lurked.  I agree with the sentiments that it's become poisonous for the forum as a whole.  I found a much better general discussion forum elsewhere and kissed Tangency goodbye for good.

As for Kiero, while I don't think he should be banned, I certainly don't think he (and others like him) need to be coddled like he is.  Questioning his gamerness based on his history is certainly valid.  Hell, I remember when he was just an angry unregistered NPC who railed against d20 any chance he got, to excess.  He registered, seemed to mellow some, and then transformed into an RPG-hating paradox.  I'm frankly jealous of his ability to stir debate with questions I personally regard as empty and pointless.  ("Navel-gazing" was a good term.)  He admits he hates gaming in the styles enjoyed by 90+% of the posters and then starts thread after thread of "I don't like this part of how you roleplay, is it really necessary?"  And I firmly believe that when he threadcraps in other people's threads, he should be strongly called on it by fellow posters.  It's pretty clear that the mods consider this too aggressive and inappropriate.  They seem to push reliance on the "report post" button and then point to the number of reports as a defense for their modding style.

Anyway, sorry for the necromancy.

Quote from: Quintin StoneAnyway, sorry for the necromancy.

Welcome to the forum, regardless!

And now that you've got that out of your system, I highly recommend taking a peek at some of our gaming-related threads, as they're most tasty and delicious.

Oh, and I'll say it up front:  Keiro annoys the piss out of me sometimes.  I don't think he should be banned, certainly.  But every post he makes strikes me as having an undercurrent of, "I hate all you gamers and if you'd just stop gaming like me then life would be perfect."  I realize this is probably completely irrational and unfounded.  Just a gut reaction.

Thanks, RedFox.  You, and many others here, are familiar to me from my years at RPG.net, even if the reverse isn't true. :)

And I'm certain that Kiero's long post on being embarrassed by the hobby does nothing to dissuade you of your opinion on him.

Quote from: RedFoxOh, and I'll say it up front:  Keiro annoys the piss out of me sometimes.

Kiero has made it nearly impossible for me to give Wushu a chance.

Quote from: William G. GruffWushu has made it nearly impossible for me to give Wushu a chance.

Fixed.

Quote from: fonkaygarryFixed.

:heh:

Quote from: Quintin StoneThe first thing I thought when I discovered JimBob had been banned was, "How could they ban the guy who created the term Cheetoism?"

Maybe to give fuel to the fire of RPGPundit's paranoid delusions? After all, if there were really were a Swine Conspiracy at rpg.net, then Cheetoists would be just the ones they ban, yes? Maybe that's why Old Geezer kisses mod arse so much, hoping to balance things out :p

Quote from: Quintin StoneThe claims of sexism and racism were never substantiated in that thread.  Many of the links that various people did to JB's alleged offenses were fairly poor examples.

The simple fact is that I was never suspended or warned for sexist or racist comments. So perhaps some users read racism or sexism in my comments; either the mods missed the offending comments, or they didn't think they were offensive - at least not offensive in a racist or sexist way. Note that no mods said I was banned for sexist or racist comments. That was just grave-dancers saying, "fuck him, he was fucking bigot anyway."

People can read a lot into your words. I was once accused of being "a typical right-wing Christian male." Only one of those three descriptions ()right-wing, Christian, male) is correct, and anyone who'd read more than one of my posts would realise that.

Quote from: Quintin StoneExcept Rule 10 effectively means: "It's against the rules to not break the rules if you do it long enough."

In intent, rule 10 means that if you're a rules-lawyer and don't break any rules, but are still a real prick, then they can ban you. In practice it's very much open to abuse, so that if this or that mod dislikes you, you can be banned. Whether it was a fair use of the rule, or an abuse of it, well my own answer will be obvious, but others have to decide for themselves.

Quote from: Quintin StoneI agree with the sentiments that it's [Tangency] become poisonous for the forum as a whole.  I found a much better general discussion forum elsewhere and kissed Tangency goodbye for good.

I wouldn't say "poisonous", but rather, a distraction. As noted in this thread, the mission statement of the mods is to be as welcoming to as wide a range of users as possible. If nothing else, that clashes with the title of the forum, "rpg.net". A forum needs a degree of focus, or else people won't be able to consistently discuss this and that topic they're interested in, and will go elsewhere. Going by the weight of threads posted, rpg.net is no longer about roleplaying games; a better name would be, "US politics, keetoms and pr0n net".

Quote from: Quintin StoneAs for Kiero, while I don't think he should be banned, I certainly don't think he (and others like him) need to be coddled like he is.  Questioning his gamerness based on his history is certainly valid.

It's not under question. He has posted a thread saying, "Why I am not a gamer" - apparently it's linked somewhere in the rpg.net monster thread on my banning. He has said he doesn't consider himself a gamer.

The main issue, as I see it, is focus. To thrive, to have interesting, amusing and useful conversations, a forum needs to have some main topic or topics. Having some focus makes the interactions with others more interesting. If you say to your friend, "come over, hang out," you may have fun, but not as much fun as if you say, "come over, hang out and - [roleplay, play soccer, watch DVDs, have sex, etc]". The activity you both enjoy makes for a more fun and interesting time together than if you just "hang out."

I made the mistake of assuming that rpg.net is about rpgs. It was once, but not anymore. As welcoming to as wide a range of users as possible, remember. Not "as wide a range of users interested in rpgs", but "as wide a range of users."

Try going to down to the pub, and take up a few tables, but don't buy any drinks, every day for months. See what happens. If the rpg.net mods were running that pub, when the drinkers asked the non-drinkers to get off the bar so they could buy a drink, the bouncers would throw out the drinkers. After all, the pub has to be welcoming to as wide a range of people as possible...

:wtfsign:

Quote from: RedFoxWelcome to the forum, regardless!.

Fox, please.  The word is "irregardless".  Dude, I just don't want you to embarass yourself at a party, OK?

Quintin: Welcome aboard, mate.  We talk about games here, and other stuff sometimes too, like Iraqi Ghandi (well, I do) and whether or nt Gabriel should get the Star Trek - Enterprise DVDs.

Quote from: JimBobOzMaybe to give fuel to the fire of RPGPundit's paranoid delusions? After all, if there were really were a Swine Conspiracy at rpg.net, then Cheetoists would be just the ones they ban, yes? Maybe that's why Old Geezer kisses mod arse so much, hoping to balance things out :p


The simple fact is that I was never suspended or warned for sexist or racist comments. So perhaps some users read racism or sexism in my comments; either the mods missed the offending comments, or they didn't think they were offensive - at least not offensive in a racist or sexist way. Note that no mods said I was banned for sexist or racist comments. That was just grave-dancers saying, "fuck him, he was fucking bigot anyway."

Welcome to the club, guy. The club of peoplke who have been victimized by bullshit allegations of "RACISM!!!"

I was banned from SJG for having a tagline that read "The first casualty if islam is free speech." which is a true statement. Also, if it was 'anti-muslim" the fact is muslim isn't a race, it's a religion. Nonetheless I was banned for it and called a racist by steve jackass himself.

"RACIST!!!" has become to the PC pod people what "COMMIE!!!" was to the McArthy pod people in the 50's: An all purpose weapon fired at anyone who doesn't toe the line to the last decimal place.

At times I really that I'm so sick of the constant accusations of "RACISM!!!" hurled at anyone who disagrees with the PC view that I might as well just say "Yeah, I'm a racist by your definitions, now that that's established let's deal with the point I'm making and the facts I'm presenting to back it up instead of just calling me a "RACIST!!!"

But, of course, the PC pod people would just scream "RACIST!!!" to drown out any truth I was speaking.

It all reminds me of the best cartoon ever done about the Simpson case, AKAk O.J. Simpson's flying circus, AKA the mark fuhrman trial. They hada little characature of Simpson walking along next to all the items of evidence that proved his guilt, saying "People ask me about all the evidence against me, like the bloody glove, the bloody sock, the cut on my finger, the blood on my bronco, the mystery package that disappeared when I made my sudden trip out of the area and so on."

"But it's all easily explained."

The next panel goes to a close up of a truly, wonderfully offensive close up of a smiling OJ and ends with "You see, Mark Fuhrman's a racist."

Oh, the fact someone's a "RACIST!!!" makes truth, reality, factsd and evidence just fade into irrelevances in  today's PC world.

Likewise the fact you never said or did anything racist on the cesspit doesn't matter, they just didin't like you and threw the term "RACIST!!!" at you, and of course in today's world there's no defense against that accusation.

Wow. Nox rolled a 1-10, an 11-15, and a 17 all at once.

RPGpundit

Quote from: Dominus NoxOh, the fact someone's a "RACIST!!!" makes truth, reality, factsd and evidence just fade into irrelevances in  today's PC world.

Goddamn player characters, always getting the best lines, always getting the choice swords, killin' good monsters and takin' their stuff, pc bastards.

Oh sure, they say they're 9th level Paladins, so what they say is law from god, but how do you kNoW they are? If they're rogues, couldn't they just lie about it?

Quote from: RPGPunditWow. Nox rolled a 1-10, an 11-15, and a 17 all at once.

RPGpundit

I don't have any idea of what your tirade meant, and I don't even care.

Quote from: PhishStyxGoddamn player characters, always getting the best lines, always getting the choice swords, killin' good monsters and takin' their stuff, pc bastards.

Oh sure, they say they're 9th level Paladins, so what they say is law from god, but how do you kNoW they are? If they're rogues, couldn't they just lie about it?

What.......


The.........

Fuck???????

Dear DN,

You have just been shown up by motherfucking mythusmage (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6669905&postcount=50).  Consider the implications.

Take care!

Quote from: fonkaygarry...motherfucking mythusmage... (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6669905&postcount=50)

What a world-class asstard... :rolleyes:

I got banned for taking one Curt Thompson to task. Curt is the one who banned me, for "attacking the mods". Curt Thompson is a cowardly little shit who can't take criticism.

Quote from: mythusmageI got banned for taking one Curt Thompson to task. Curt is the one who banned me, for "attacking the mods". Curt Thompson is a cowardly little shit who can't take criticism.

Not to mention he's only a moderator because he slept his way there. That's pretty pathetic.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNot to mention he's only a moderator because he slept his way there. That's pretty pathetic.

RPGPundit

Buh?

I heard that he was an agitator in the Old Days, got banned, got reinstated, then made a Mod - seemed like a huge turnaround. But THAT? Wow.

Oh, and I just want to take a sec to throw in that Darren is the biggest smoldering pile of ass that ever walked the Earth. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.  How he's able to OPENLY attack people in threads and not get called on it is beyond me. Part of the long chain that led to my banning was reporting HIM for abusive behavior. Since that was what they SAY you're supposed to do. He laughed and said "Good luck" - nice to be completely above the law.

Didn't you ever ask yourself why Curt, who was once permabanned from RPG.net, and has never really changed from the kind of behaviour of "gay-baiting" and drama that got him banned once, is now not only reinstated but a MOD?  It certainly wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he has a living arrangement with other members of the Modclique, right?

RPGpundit

Oh... first I'd heard of THAT.

You know, between this bullshit and the whole "gay" remarks thing, you really are coming across as a homophobic prick this week.

Quote from: WerekoalaBuh?

I heard that he was an agitator in the Old Days, got banned, got reinstated, then made a Mod - seemed like a huge turnaround. But THAT? Wow.

Oh, and I just want to take a sec to throw in that Darren is the biggest smoldering pile of ass that ever walked the Earth. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.  How he's able to OPENLY attack people in threads and not get called on it is beyond me. Part of the long chain that led to my banning was reporting HIM for abusive behavior. Since that was what they SAY you're supposed to do. He laughed and said "Good luck" - nice to be completely above the law.

I called him on it.  Multiple times.  And had several very long conversations backstage with mods about his behavior.

Frankly I think that was at least one aspect of why I was removed from the site.

Curt is roomies with A2k and Voice of Isaac. This is why he couldn't be kept off rpg.net. They ban him, he makes a sock puppet, they IP ban him, and - woops, your IP ban took out a mod and an admin, too.

I don't believe Curt ever made a sock puppet. But as a practical matter, they couldn't keep him off the site if he wanted to stay. A wise leader will always be seen to graciously accept that which they cannot prevent.

They made him a moderator to moderate his own behaviour, hoping that seeing all the reports and chaos of modding, and the sense of "setting an example" would make him less aggressive.

I'd say it worked. He is, ironically, the most sensitive of moderators; most sensitive to profanity and personal attacks, wherever they're directed. If you say (for example), "McDs is run by cunts," then most of the other mods would let it by; Curt would come in and warn you for "using the c word referring to the vagina as an insult." His reasoning would be that it's the most offensive profanity in the English language, and is especially offensive to women, and thus its common use would confict with the mission statement of making the site as welcoming to as wide a range of users as possible.

Whether he would be correct in that is neither here nor there; it's an example only. The point is that he's the mod most sensitive to swearing and personal attacks flying around, which is supremely ironic. It would be like RPGPundit becoming a mod there, no longer ranting, and criticising others for their rants.

Dominus Nox, I was not banned for racist or sexist comments; I was banned for being unwelcoming to non-gamers, and "bad for the site as a whole" (whatever that means). No moderator said I made racist or sexist comments; it was the non-mod gravedancers saying, "we won't miss him anyway, he was a racist/sexist bastard."

Still less was I banned for making "un-PC" comments. Please take your rant elsewhere. Your rant is usually inaccurate and misplaced, but it's especially so in this case.

Quote from: RPGPunditWow. Nox rolled a 1-10, an 11-15, and a 17 all at once.

RPGpundit

You need to revise the chart so that a natural 20 allows 1d3+1 rerolls.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYou know, between this bullshit and the whole "gay" remarks thing, you really are coming across as a homophobic prick this week.

There's nothing to do with homophobia in this. Its just the truth, particular to Curt. Is he or is he not room-mate with a couple of the modclique?

Is there any reasonable concept that a guy like him could otherwise have managed to become a mod there? I mean, how else do you explain how you go from permabanned user to fucking MODERATOR after the sort of shit Curt had pulled? Were it not for his living arrangements, he would be just another name on the long list of guys who, rightly or wrongly, were not allowed anywhere near RPG.net.

RPGPundit

Quote from: KnightskyYou need to revise the chart so that a natural 20 allows 1d3+1 rerolls.

Clearly. Time for an "improved 2nd edition" table!

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't believe Curt ever made a sock puppet. But as a practical matter, they couldn't keep him off the site if he wanted to stay. A wise leader will always be seen to graciously accept that which they cannot prevent.

They made him a moderator to moderate his own behaviour, hoping that seeing all the reports and chaos of modding, and the sense of "setting an example" would make him less aggressive.

I'd say it worked. He is, ironically, the most sensitive of moderators; most sensitive to profanity and personal attacks, wherever they're directed.

Last week I made a comment that was taken out of context. I got told;
"The level of bullshit in this thread has reached critical mass."
I said it was a 'telling riposte'. The poster then said "I'm not a kleenex. Get someone else to clean up your wank"

Now, big deal, the guy's an arsehole. But what got me was that Curt defended the guy for 'being blunt' when another poster called him on it. So, I decided that I could be blunt and told the guy if he couldn't add to the conversation, then fuck off.

Of course, I got red texted by another mod over it.

I see Iocabus just got a six month ban for calling Curt on his modding in a somewhat passionate way.

I haven't got anything against Curt, but I know 'arbitrary' when I see it. Rules have to be enforced evenly, otherwise you lose any respect you have on your ability to enforce those rules.

Quote from: Dominus NoxWhat.......


The.........

Fuck???????

Man, if you're that fucking dumb, I'm not going to bother trying to explain it.

Quote from: ChalkLineI see Iacobus just got a six month ban for calling Curt on his modding in a somewhat passionate way.

To be fair, I knew exactly what was going to happen when I called Curt a hypersensitive twit and a shitty poster. Then again, I also knew exactly what would have happened if I had just reported him for the personal attacks he so loathes.

Spoiler warning: it would have been the same thing

Quote from: IacobusTo be fair, I knew exactly what was going to happen when I called Curt a hypersensitive twit and a shitty poster. Then again, I also knew exactly what would have happened if I had just reported him for the personal attacks he so loathes.

Spoiler warning: it would have been the same thing

Welcome to the layer cake. :D

(Note: The above means only that I (a) welcome Iacobus with open arms and (b) watch way too fucking many crime movies.)

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.



;)

Oh yeah: Welcome, Iacobus. Are you giving theRPGsite a try? :)

Good point!

Welcome to theRPGsite, Iacobus, I hope you enjoy it here!

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's nothing to do with homophobia in this. Its just the truth, particular to Curt. Is he or is he not room-mate with a couple of the modclique?

  You said he slept his way into a position of power.  Do you really want to be claiming that he's only a mod because he's banging Isaac while A2K's away?  The implication's pretty clear... the modclique are all sexual degenerates and the only reason they keep Curt around is for the sex.  Making oblique references to sexual favours when you're talking about someone gay is on a par with talking about money and accounting when you talk about someone Jewish.  Given that you just got called on using "gay" as a synonym for "lame" or "shit" I think I'm on pretty good grounds for calling you a bigot.  You might have enough sense to say "I would never discriminate..." but you've got the stench of it on you.

  I think Curt's a fucking terrible moderator but I don't think his status as a mod says anything more about the purple site than the fact that you can be the biggest prick in the world on there and it doesn't matter as long as you're popular in the right circles.

  If you want to attack Curt at least attack his judgement and the policies of the site.  His sexuality has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYou said he slept his way into a position of power.  Do you really want to be claiming that he's only a mod because he's banging Isaac while A2K's away?  The implication's pretty clear... the modclique are all sexual degenerates and the only reason they keep Curt around is for the sex.  Making oblique references to sexual favours when you're talking about someone gay is on a par with talking about money and accounting when you talk about someone Jewish.  Given that you just got called on using "gay" as a synonym for "lame" or "shit" I think I'm on pretty good grounds for calling you a bigot.  You might have enough sense to say "I would never discriminate..." but you've got the stench of it on you.

  I think Curt's a fucking terrible moderator but I don't think his status as a mod says anything more about the purple site than the fact that you can be the biggest prick in the world on there and it doesn't matter as long as you're popular in the right circles.

  If you want to attack Curt at least attack his judgement and the policies of the site.  His sexuality has nothing to do with it.

Aside from being the "fashionable Gay Activism dude", no, his sexuality doesn't have anything to do with his being moderator (as in, the modclique are a very shallowly fashionably PC bunch and his particular pet obsession fits right in with that; Curt isn't just gay he's loudly vociferously gay and aggresive about it, and the rest of the modclique thinks that it shows off their hipness by association to have him in their clique). His living arrangements, however, do.  That was the whole of my point. Whether he had actual sex with someone to get there, or whether its just a question of massive nepotism, is pretty much beside the point as the effective problem still stands: he's massively unqualified to moderate anything, and yet they put him there because of personal favoritisms of a particularly blatant nature.

Of course, most of that bunch are people I wouldn't ever trust in any kind of position of power, ever. Given what a big deal so many of them make of their Modhood, I can say with some relief that thankfully, most of them don't seem to have much power or authority in anything really important in the real world.

RPGPundit

Quote from: C.W.RichesonGood point!

Welcome to theRPGsite, Iacobus, I hope you enjoy it here!

I'm just trying to adjust to reading an RPG site where more than half the posts are a) actually about gaming and b) not eye-rollingly stupid.

It is a strange yet enjoyable feeling.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat was the whole of my point. Whether he had actual sex with someone to get there, or whether its just a question of massive nepotism, is pretty much beside the point as the effective problem still stands: he's massively unqualified to moderate anything, and yet they put him there because of personal favoritisms of a particularly blatant nature.

  Bullshit.  You're back-pedaling.  You said that he slept his way into a position of authority, the implication being that he's someone's sex toy.

  And what does "loudly and vociferously gay" mean?  Curt confronted a culture of casual homophobia that pervaded RPGnet just as it pervades much of American society.  While I don't like the social authoritarianism that came in the wake of those arguments (or more particularly the fact that the moderation policy moved from being anti-fascist to anti- pretty much everyone that steps out of line), I think he was completely justified in calling people on it and continues to be justified in calling people on casual homophobia to this day.  You might not like the guy but criticising him for refusing to put up with back handed homophobic comments like the ones you've been making is pretty craven if you ask me.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBullshit.  You're back-pedaling.  You said that he slept his way into a position of authority, the implication being that he's someone's sex toy.

With or without sex, which I cannot confirm or deny, its pretty fucking sordid and downright disgraceful for RPG.net that Curt is a mod.

QuoteAnd what does "loudly and vociferously gay" mean?

The same as Amado being "loud and vociferously racial minority".  It means he would never shut the fuck up about it, would turn everything into a claim of persecution/prejudice, constantly accuse others of intolerance in order to draw attention to himself or win rhetorical points, and would generally expect... no, demand that censorship be applied to anyone he didn't like because of their "intolerance", while he himself expected and demanded to be able to go on like an idiot about anything at all.

QuoteCurt confronted a culture of casual homophobia that pervaded RPGnet just as it pervades much of American society.

Oh fuck that! He used his gayness and accusations of homophobia as a blunt weapon to bash over anyone he didn't agree with.

QuoteYou might not like the guy but criticising him for refusing to put up with back handed homophobic comments like the ones you've been making is pretty craven if you ask me.

I don't like anyone who uses their background as a tool to silence arguments that have nothing to do with said background, when they know they couldn't possibly win said arguments any other way.

Its craven.

RPGPundit

The way how it's playing out here, it's as though the mods at TBP have a secret room where they take members and educate them in A Clockwork Orange manner, only they alternate between scenes of BrokeBack Mountain and We Were Solidiers...you do know that's not true, right?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditThe same as Amado being "loud and vociferously racial minority".  It means he would never shut the fuck up about it, would turn everything into a claim of persecution/prejudice, constantly accuse others of intolerance in order to draw attention to himself or win rhetorical points, and would generally expect... no, demand that censorship be applied to anyone he didn't like because of their "intolerance", while he himself expected and demanded to be able to go on like an idiot about anything at all.

...snip

Oh fuck that! He used his gayness and accusations of homophobia as a blunt weapon to bash over anyone he didn't agree with.

Exactly.

Quote from: IacobusI'm just trying to adjust to reading an RPG site where more than half the posts are a) actually about gaming and b) not eye-rollingly stupid.

Oh, and don't forget:

c) Exceptionally friendly, not at all hostile, and welcoming.

:pimpdahoe:

Oh, that?

That was just to toughen you up.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenOh, and don't forget:

c) Exceptionally friendly, not at all hostile, and welcoming.

:pimpdahoe:

Oh, that?

That was just to toughen you up.

On the other hand, at least not bland and overly abstract.

Quote from: JimBobOzOn the other hand, at least not bland and overly abstract.

Ah, I am stung.

Sorry, man, but I'm getting plenty of practical goodness from my place.  Unfortunate that it doesn't suit your taste.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenOh, and don't forget:

c) Exceptionally friendly, not at all hostile, and welcoming.

:pimpdahoe:

Oh, that?

That was just to toughen you up.

To some people here, we can be extremely friendly. Anyone who shares our vision of the mission statement of this site would find themselves in a very friendly environment.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAnyone who shares our vision of the mission statement of this site would find themselves in a very friendly environment.

This site has a mission statement?
 
To Boldly Pund where no Pundit has Punded before? :D

Quote from: O'BorgThis site has a mission statement?
 
To Boldly Pund where no Pundit has Punded before? :D

From the RPGsite's Constitution (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1471):

"4. TheRPGsite is meant to be a general, non-commercial forum for anything and everything related to Mainstream tabletop RPGs. This doesn't mean that you can't also talk about other games, electronic games, off-topic posts, or even talk about non-mainstream RPGs. Its just that the overall focus of the site is on mainstream RPG gaming as a hobby (not an "art" or a "lifestyle"), and that this will be the dominant paradigm under which this site operates."

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditTo some people here, we can be extremely friendly. Anyone who shares our vision of the mission statement of this site would find themselves in a very friendly environment.

Honestly?

Yes, this is a very friendly environment.  It just requires getting used to the idea that people can and will call you on your shit - even if your shit is mostly bad presentation.

Which means that when you disagree, you can skip it, or learn to refine your presentation.

(I prefer the second option).

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHonestly?

Yes, this is a very friendly environment.  It just requires getting used to the idea that people can and will call you on your shit - even if your shit is mostly bad presentation.

Which means that when you disagree, you can skip it, or learn to refine your presentation.

(I prefer the second option).

In all honesty, the only people who need to "get used to it" are refugees (or veterans) of extremely moderated message boards.  The norm on the internet as a whole is very much this sort of anarchy.

Only the overall quality of discussion, grammar, and spelling is generally much lower.

Quote from: RedFoxIn all honesty, the only people who need to "get used to it" are refugees (or veterans) of extremely moderated message boards. The norm on the internet as a whole is very much this sort of anarchy.

I agree.
RPGNet's nigh draconian moderation is most certainly not the norm on the internet, and I honestly don't think that the site is any better off than places where you can call someone being an ass an ass and not get a one-way ticket to Bannsville because some hand-wringing weenie  (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/weenie.htm)bursts into tears about a personal attack directed at someone else.

Quote from: O'BorgI agree.
RPGNet's nigh draconian moderation is most certainly not the norm on the internet, and I honestly don't think that the site is any better off than places where you can call someone being an ass an ass and not get a one-way ticket to Bannsville because some hand-wringing weenie  (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/weenie.htm)bursts into tears about a personal attack directed at someone else.

Hell, I've been a goon in the Something Awful forums for six years and even I think RPGnet's management is draconian.

Gruff: I don't know where you get them, but your goat avatars rock. :D

Quote from: William G. GruffHell, I've been a goon in the Something Awful forums for six years and even I think RPGnet's management is draconian.

I'd say that the SA management is more capricious than draconian...

Tangency is the cause of most of the problems on that site, so I don't understand why they have it.
Transexuals and gay rights activists are the cause of much of the rest of the problems. The mods have bent over backwards to make the board "gay safe" and bubble wrapped, and no one can dispute transexuals gender identities. It's weird.

And then the minority of the problems are caused by people taking their gaming WAY too seriously.

Okay Mr. Blackthorne - why the necro on this thread?

You get fed up with all of them over there or what?


....just curious.


- Ed C.

Oh lordy, here comes Grampa Koltar.

Quote from: Werekoala;349451Oh lordy, here comes Grampa Koltar.

....just because I had to get bi-focals.......


- Ed C.

Quote from: Blackthorne;349441Tangency is the cause of most of the problems on that site, so I don't understand why they have it.
Transexuals and gay rights activists are the cause of much of the rest of the problems. The mods have bent over backwards to make the board "gay safe" and bubble wrapped, and no one can dispute transexuals gender identities. It's weird.

I made all of three posts on TBP before realising that it's just a hang-out for angry hormonal teens, so I can't really comment from knowledge, but when someone writes "gay rights activists" and "dispute transexuals gender identities" in the same post, I can only read it as, "why is homophobic, abusive threadcrapping not allowed?"

In the "What would RPGPundit Do?" Dept.:

Kyle, did you ever consider that maybe they banned you because of your somewhat higher profile over here??

Quote from: HairfootI made all of three posts on TBP before realising that it's just a hang-out for angry hormonal teens

I went to Oberlin College in the US, which is pretty much a real-life version of the RPGSite, and actually, it seems more like a hang-out for overly-sensitive, temporarily sexually and politically radicalized uni students.