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Author Topic: Testing my tolerance level  (Read 5040 times)

Jackalope

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« Reply #150 on: August 28, 2008, 11:41:50 pm »
Quote from: John Morrow;241516
How about Bruce Bawer's First They Came for the Gays?  Bigotry or legitimate criticism?

I'd definitely call that legitimate criticism, especially since it seems to be criticism of European policy and hypocrisy, rather than criticism of Islam.

I'm not one who believes that all criticism of Islam is bigotry, nor am I defender of Islam.  There is most definitely a politically viable faction within the Muslim community that is hostile to the freedoms of Western society, and I definitely think that a certain amount of caution towards the Islamic community is reasonable given the current events of the world.

I'm referring to the difference between a person raised in the Christian church describing the Christian faith as being "lies and hatred disguised as love for God" and a person raised in the Christian church describing the Islamic faith as being "lies and hatred disguised as love for Allah."

Likewise, someone raised in the Muslim faith (or society) describing Christianity in ignorant and hateful ways would be guilty of something worse than if they described Islam is a disparaging way.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:50:28 pm by Jackalope »
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Jackalope

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« Reply #151 on: August 28, 2008, 11:50:10 pm »
Quote from: CavScout;241519
Better go back and read what you wrote. Criticism of Islam, bad. Criticism of Christianity, good.

No, I was right on target.


No, I only said that criticism of Christianity from people who live in Christian societies is not the same as criticism of Islam from people who live in Christian societies.  I didn't say either was good or bad, only that they are of a different nature.

But god forbid you let a nuanced argument get in the way of your trolling ambitions.  Carry on with the fuckwittery, good sir.
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #152 on: August 29, 2008, 12:00:34 am »
Quote from: Jackalope;241510
Criticism of Christianity from people who have grown up in Christian societies and been affected by Christian supremacy is significantly different than criticism of Islam from people who have grown up in Christian societies and been affected by Christian supremacy.
Well, the thing is that the S'mons and gleichmans of the world aren't actually criticising Islam. They're just frightened of it, and have lots of misconceptions about it. They're bigots. And bigotry isn't criticism.

Like, "no single man can hear the voice of God exclusively, that is for all people to hear as well or badly as others" - that's a criticism of the Catholic church and the structure of the Papacy. That's criticism.

But "I don't want a mosque in my neighbourhood, but churches are okay" isn't criticism, it's simple bigotry.

The Islamic world is generally in a big fucking mess, and Islam is a part of that. So plainly it needs criticism. They need some kind of Reformation - Christianity had one, they got a century or two of hideous bloody conflict out of it, but the faith came out overall much better and a more productive part of society as a result. It was a process of critique.

But "I don't like 'em" isn't a critique, it's just useless bigotry. And that goes with ignorance, like in the youtube I posted the woman saying that she didn't think the minarets looked very islamic. In general education is a good thing, countering ignorance, but I don't know that it helps much with such bigotry, since it's wilfull ignorance we're talking about. I mean, these sorts of people are lucky to know where their own faith came from and how it differs from similar faiths, let alone having any fucking clue about the shitloads of different factions of other faiths. And then you mix ethnicity in with the faith, and so on... it's complicated stuff even for a person who is interested, and isn't bigoted.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 12:12:17 am by Kyle Aaron »
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gleichman

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« Reply #153 on: August 29, 2008, 12:08:09 am »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;241524
Well, the thing is that the S'mons and gleichmans of the world aren't actually criticising Islam. They're just frightened of it, and have lots of misconceptions about it. They're bigots. And bigotry isn't criticism.


I wish to hell you would just try actually back up this Slander you son of a bitch.

Even Walkerp retracted it after being called on it- but you, oh no. You have no respect for truth or anything.

Instead you hide like a coward behind's Pundit's suggestion that you put me on Ignore and spew lies.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 12:18:26 am by gleichman »
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CavScout

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« Reply #154 on: August 29, 2008, 12:20:45 am »
Quote from: Jackalope;241522
No, I only said that criticism of Christianity from people who live in Christian societies is not the same as criticism of Islam from people who live in Christian societies.  I didn't say either was good or bad, only that they are of a different nature.

But god forbid you let a nuanced argument get in the way of your trolling ambitions.  Carry on with the fuckwittery, good sir.


Oh, I get the "nuanced argument" that's why you saying they are just "different" is really you saying one is allowed and acceptable while the other is not.
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« Reply #155 on: August 29, 2008, 12:46:37 am »
Quote from: John Morrow;241507
I'm going to ask you the same question I asked in response to David R's message.  Is there a reason why you couldn't make this point without using that word?


Quote from: CavScout;241509
It seems to have quite the prominent place in music these days. Maybe he's listening to rap or something.


Well first, CavScout, I appreciate your humor but I think John has a fair question.

Forgive me for being brief but I am about to get myself permabanned on rpg.net for calling out some cheap shots cessna made against me, so I am short on time...

I could indeed make the point without using any offensive words John, and if I have offended you I am genuinely sorry, as such was not my intent. However, sometimes the use of a jarring word helps to frame an argument in a way that polite banter simply cannot. I was attempting to demonstrate how vulgar and offensive the action in question would be. Simply saying 'a guy walking down the street saying offensive things' lacks an emotional punch.

Now, if you want to accuse me of exploiting emotion to make a logical point, I am fully guilty of that. ;)

Anyway, I would not consider it an undue restriction of my free speech to not use that word, IF it really bothers you that much. Let me know. No promises, but I will make an effort. If it is not a major issue for you though, I'd rather just keep it as part of the arsenal, as it were.

David R

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« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2008, 01:05:52 am »
Quote from: John Morrow;241498
Can someone please explain to me why it's acceptable to toss those terms around to make a point like this that could easily be made using other less inflammatory words?  And that question isn't just directed at David R but at the other people who have used those terms in similar contexts here and elsewhere.


Morrow, you are correct. Bill's explantion is pretty spot on....at least as far as what I was aiming for, but you are correct, I should not use those vile terms for affect.

With regards to legitimate criticism of Islam or even American foreign policy, I'm all for that. In one of my responses to Glienchman I said as much. I don't think what we have here - S'mon remarks - falls under legitimate criticism.

Regards,
David R
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 01:33:08 am by David R »

S'mon

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« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2008, 01:32:55 am »
Quote from: David R;241537
I don't think what we have here - S'mon remarks - falls under legitimate criticism.


True - I was just giving my feelings, which have been inculcated by contact with Islam.  I could criticise it as a belief system, but that's not the point.  My fear - "Islamaphobia" is inculcated by eg the BBC news story yesterday about non-Muslim councillors in Tower Hamlets council being forbidden from eating during Ramadan - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2638808/Councillors-told-not-to-eat-during-Ramadan-meetings.html - this one example is trivial, but there has been a constant deluge of this for 8 years.  Very often it's non-Muslims leftists forcing Islam on everyone else, as when my wife was told to remove a toy pig from her work desk "to respect" the Muslim working nearby (who was fine with it).  I'm aware that most Muslims just want a quiet life, and leftists like Kyle may be deliberately inculcating Islamaphobia for their own agenda.  I mean, why go to an Australian suburb and threaten them with a giant mosque "to reveal their prejudice"?  What that actually does is create the very emotion it's supposed to reveal.
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David R

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« Reply #158 on: August 29, 2008, 01:45:49 am »
Then deal with it S'mon by expressing your "fears" in a rational way taking into consideration that Islam and Muslims are not a monolithic entity. If you got problems with "lefties" speaking for Islam, articulate these problems, don't blame Islam or maybe it's easier to fall into the blame game and not really address the cause of your anger. I was born , raised and live in a Muslim country. I can tell you firsthand that Islam is not out to get you (like you mentioned in an earlier post), but there are people (like there are in every religion or ideology) with malicious intent. Your focus should be on them not the religion and the majority of it's adherents. And yeah if you feel that the actions of certain lefties are causing the very effect they claim to want to stop, focus your anger on them (the lefties) instead of you know acting in the very way they (lefties) accuse some of.

Regards,
David R

Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #159 on: August 29, 2008, 01:58:55 am »
Quote from: S'mon;241544
I'm aware that most Muslims just want a quiet life, and leftists like Kyle may be deliberately inculcating Islamaphobia for their own agenda.  I mean, why go to an Australian suburb and threaten them with a giant mosque "to reveal their prejudice"?  What that actually does is create the very emotion it's supposed to reveal.
Those weren't leftists, they were comedians. Comedians create comedy by revealing the human absurdity of people. For example, the absurdity that someone dressed as an Arab is a "security risk" but someone dressed as a white American tourist is not - so it seems. I guess those silly terrorists would never think of dressing like American tourists.

In this case, the absurdity is, "I'm not racist, but -" and of course, as with everything else, we know that everything before the "but" is bullshit.

The bigotry is already there. Australia has Moslems in the country, and we have freedom of religion, therefore the mosques must be built somewhere. If the comedians don't bring it up in that suburb, people will seriously bring it up in another suburb.  

So what you're really saying is that people wanting to build mosques creates bigotry against Islam. Which is like saying that homosexuals actually having homosexual relationships creates homophobia, Jews wearing yarmulkes creates antisemitism, women speaking creates misogyny, and African-Americans playing rap music creates racism.

Horseshit. The bigotry was already there. Turning over the stone just reveals the slime living underneath, it doesn't create it. In fact the slime dies when exposed to the light and heat of scrutiny. Everyone who showed up on that tv clip, now that they realise a good part of the country is laughing at them, is going to be rethinking what they choose to say out loud; and opinions unexpressed don't last long, or at the least can't be passed on.

It's a common tactic of the bigot to blame the victim of their bigotry and those defending the victims for their bigotry. "I'm not racist, but -"

No, you are racist. And your bigotry is your fault.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 02:05:23 am by Kyle Aaron »
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S'mon

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« Reply #160 on: August 29, 2008, 04:05:56 am »
Quote from: David R;241546
And yeah if you feel that the actions of certain lefties are causing the very effect they claim to want to stop, focus your anger on them (the lefties) instead of you know acting in the very way they (lefties) accuse some of.


Yes - but those lefty Muslims are the worst... :p

As I've said repeatedly, I don't hate or even dislike individual Muslims, neither in general, nor my neighbours, those I meet professionally, etc.  In fact I seem to get along better with them than the lefties do, because I respect them as equals,  whereas the lefties often take a craven lickspittle attitude that inspires contempt.
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S'mon

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« Reply #161 on: August 29, 2008, 04:08:21 am »
Quote from: David R;241546
I was born , raised and live in a Muslim country.


Which one?  They vary a lot.
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« Reply #162 on: August 29, 2008, 08:49:34 am »
Quote from: John Morrow;241498
Can someone please explain to me why it's acceptable to toss those terms around to make a point like this that could easily be made using other less inflammatory words?

Context matters. While it is socially unacceptable to use these slurs in anger or discrimination, I believe it should not be unacceptable to use them in reference or discussion. Part of the power of these pejoratives comes from the fact that they're only spoken [by whites/straights, in this case] by those who are using them with hatred implied; I would rob the words of their power by refusing to be cowed by them. That said, I'm surrounded by like-minded people, who have chosen to "take back" the word nigger from those who would use it in hatred, and I'm certain my view has been influenced by theirs.
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« Reply #163 on: August 29, 2008, 09:16:08 am »
Quote from: S'mon;241570
Which one?  They vary a lot.


Malaysia.

Regards,
David R

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« Reply #164 on: August 29, 2008, 09:22:32 am »
Quote from: David R;241608
Malaysia.

You're okay with us hating you for living in a prettier place than we do, right?
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