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Author Topic: Superman is gay.  (Read 9616 times)

Pat
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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2021, 03:31:27 AM »
I agree with Zelen's argument that there's a limit to the amount of deconstruction that can occur within a medium. The reason why is that when everything's deconstructed, there's nothing left to deconstruct. But I disagree about Moore. I think Watchmen was a very successful example. The real problem is comics have been copying Moore (and Miller) for the last 35 years, without realizing you can't deconstruct something that's already been taken to pieces.

I agree. It's obvious that you can have a limited amount of "deconstruction" of particular tropes and patterns, but if you let that become dominant within the mainstream then it destroys the medium.

If you're playing a song, then having some asshole start banging on a frying pan might occasionally be okay and even add to the song. But if all you have are assholes banging on random objects you don't have a song anymore.

I'm in agreement about Alan Moore -- though in music, I actually liked Stomp and similar drumming shows.

My favorite re-invented superheroes is Astro City, which is a more positive reinvention rather than deconstruction.
Astro City isn't deconstruction at all, it's a loving homage. The main difference is the superheroics are background to the personal stories. It makes the ordinary people the focus of the stories instead of the heroes, or tries to consider what it would be like if being a superhero was your job.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2021, 02:10:53 PM »
But I disagree about Moore. I think Watchmen was a very successful example.

In the sense its changed what superhero comics are about for 2 decades for the worst (and then they became even worse on their own). Yes, it was successful.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2021, 03:02:09 PM »
I'm in agreement about Alan Moore -- though in music, I actually liked Stomp and similar drumming shows.

To stretch this metaphor further: people sometimes confuse just trying something new or different with deconstruction. But thats just new creation: not deconstruction.

I also like Stomp.
Deconstruction is form of artsy-fartsy criticism invented by Derrida. It has nothing to do with Watchmen or anything done by writers. Are you using that stupid meaningless tvtropes definition that pretentiously labels artsy-fartsy anime as "deconstruction" to make them look cooler than they actually are?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2021, 03:29:03 PM »
Deconstruction is form of artsy-fartsy criticism invented by Derrida. It has nothing to do with Watchmen or anything done by writers. Are you using that stupid meaningless tvtropes definition that pretentiously labels artsy-fartsy anime as "deconstruction" to make them look cooler than they actually are?

The hell are you talking about? I don’t even like deconstruction, what makes you think I would use it as a positive description?

But I guess I use the slang definition, and not the formal one. Do you get upset when people use irony incorrectly?

Wrath of God

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2021, 05:11:53 PM »
Quote
In the sense its changed what superhero comics are about for 2 decades for the worst (and then they became even worse on their own). Yes, it was successful.

That I definitely disagree.
But then I was never much into Silver Era optimist superheroism, and always more into Superpower Ubermensch are a Cosmic Terror for normal humans, let's examine how this horror shall evolve, so Watchman or Squadron Supreme suits me very well
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

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With great vengeance and furious anger"


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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2021, 05:27:33 PM »
But then I was never much into Silver Era optimist superheroism, and always more into Superpower Ubermensch are a Cosmic Terror for normal humans, let's examine how this horror shall evolve, so Watchman or Squadron Supreme suits me very well

I think your taste is shit, and even from the angle of that Watchman still sucks unless you like your characters shallow and stupid, and even then Watchmen didn't usher in a age of  Ubermench wank and more just broody gits, and then eventually pouches.

But I can't argue with you liking what you like.

Pat
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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2021, 06:19:20 PM »
But I disagree about Moore. I think Watchmen was a very successful example.

In the sense its changed what superhero comics are about for 2 decades for the worst (and then they became even worse on their own). Yes, it was successful.
Yeah, you've said that about 30 times. We get it. You don't like the angry perverted Santa.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2021, 06:30:59 PM »
Yeah, you've said that about 30 times. We get it. You don't like the angry perverted Santa.

Fair enough. Its not the pervertedness I dislike. Its the hypocricy.

Pat
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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2021, 06:40:59 PM »
Yeah, you've said that about 30 times. We get it. You don't like the angry perverted Santa.

Fair enough. Its not the pervertedness I dislike. Its the hypocricy.
Then you probably haven't read Lost Girls.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2021, 12:12:29 AM »
Then you probably haven't read Lost Girls.

I have. Don't complain about other people butchering your work or disrespecting your characters when you do this sort of stuff.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2021, 08:17:00 PM »
Deconstruction is form of artsy-fartsy criticism invented by Derrida. It has nothing to do with Watchmen or anything done by writers. Are you using that stupid meaningless tvtropes definition that pretentiously labels artsy-fartsy anime as "deconstruction" to make them look cooler than they actually are?

The hell are you talking about? I don’t even like deconstruction, what makes you think I would use it as a positive description?

But I guess I use the slang definition, and not the formal one. Do you get upset when people use irony incorrectly?
I've seen it used in a bunch of different ways. Tvtropes uses it one way, Nerdrotic uses it to mean "when SJWs piss on iconic characters."

Lurkndog

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2021, 08:37:12 AM »
I agree. It's obvious that you can have a limited amount of "deconstruction" of particular tropes and patterns, but if you let that become dominant within the mainstream then it destroys the medium.

I agree, and I think the same is true of other reactionary or transgressive types of stories and characters.

Wolverine, for instance, was originally cool because he broke the rules of being a goody-goody superhero. He was a killer, and lived a dissolute lifestyle. He had a bad attitude, and smoked like a chimney. This was attractive for its own rakish sake, and led to some nice dramatic conflict with the more traditional heroes.

Since then, though, the idea of Wolverine has permeated the comics medium so much that damn near every character is a hard-bitten outsider with a mean attitude. I mean, they gave Superman a healing factor. Wolverine isn't transgressive any more: he's the new norm. And that's not really a good thing for the medium. Comics are so addicted to being transgressive that you can go into a comics store and not find anything on the racks that's suitable for children. Which is one of the reasons why sales numbers are so abysmal.

Pat
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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2021, 12:43:12 PM »
I agree. It's obvious that you can have a limited amount of "deconstruction" of particular tropes and patterns, but if you let that become dominant within the mainstream then it destroys the medium.

I agree, and I think the same is true of other reactionary or transgressive types of stories and characters.

Wolverine, for instance, was originally cool because he broke the rules of being a goody-goody superhero. He was a killer, and lived a dissolute lifestyle. He had a bad attitude, and smoked like a chimney. This was attractive for its own rakish sake, and led to some nice dramatic conflict with the more traditional heroes.

Since then, though, the idea of Wolverine has permeated the comics medium so much that damn near every character is a hard-bitten outsider with a mean attitude. I mean, they gave Superman a healing factor. Wolverine isn't transgressive any more: he's the new norm. And that's not really a good thing for the medium. Comics are so addicted to being transgressive that you can go into a comics store and not find anything on the racks that's suitable for children. Which is one of the reasons why sales numbers are so abysmal.
I think the worst or at least the most obvious example is what passes as banter in modern comics. It's not banter in the traditional sense of clever repartee. It's just one character being a complete ass to another character, by thoroughly insulting and demeaning them. And this isn't shit thrown at a hated enemy, it's usually between characters who are supposed to be friends or at least allies. This shouldn't be mistaken for rough but friendly locker room banter, or some witty inversion, or even an attempt to display a character's complete lack of social skills (they're usually supposed to be cool, in the context of the setting). It's just people being absolutely terrible to their friends for no reason at all, because it's supposed to be edgy or something. It doesn't make me like the characters, it makes me hate them and wish they were dead.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 12:45:35 PM by Pat »

Wrath of God

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2021, 06:10:43 PM »
Quote
I think your taste is shit, and even from the angle of that Watchman still sucks unless you like your characters shallow and stupid, and even then Watchmen didn't usher in a age of  Ubermench wank and more just broody gits, and then eventually pouches.

But I can't argue with you liking what you like.

And that's why you shall fail, libertarian ;)

Quote
Since then, though, the idea of Wolverine has permeated the comics medium so much that damn near every character is a hard-bitten outsider with a mean attitude. I mean, they gave Superman a healing factor. Wolverine isn't transgressive any more: he's the new norm. And that's not really a good thing for the medium. Comics are so addicted to being transgressive that you can go into a comics store and not find anything on the racks that's suitable for children. Which is one of the reasons why sales numbers are so abysmal.

TBH that's inevitable end of anything projected as unending multiverse soap-opera.
You will redesign characters because of franchise power, and nothing ever ends and resolves.

TBH it was also done in Silver Age. Golden Age pre-code heroes including Sups and Bats killed a lot of people in their early days. So who is real anyway :P

In Future Space Human Empire there will be one story of Superman from his fall on Earth to his ultimate demise. ;) Anything else will be under damnatio memoriae.
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2021, 11:21:13 PM »
And that's why you shall fail, libertarian ;)
Because I tolerate opinions even though I dislike them?