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Author Topic: Superman is gay.  (Read 1848 times)

Pat

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2021, 07:26:30 PM »
Writing superhero comics means dealing with superhero genre tropes. If you don't like those, then don't write them.
You're right, hacks like Alan Moore and that obscure comic he wrote ages ago called Watchmen have no place in the comics industry.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2021, 09:15:57 PM »
You're right, hacks like Alan Moore and that obscure comic he wrote ages ago called Watchmen have no place in the comics industry.

Yup. 100% this and unironically this. This is the man who walks on beaches and gets great pleasure smashing down sandcastles and calling them childish. He does this while oggling sunbathing women with binoculars and making sand scultures (which are totally different and not childish!).
Watchmen is utter crap. Its got a degree of technical proficiency, but thats it.

On a fictional consistency level, I think it's kind of stupid for superheroes to restrict themselves to only fighting criminals, when they could massively change the world for the better. But in the long term, superhero comics want the world to stay recognizable to readers, so they contrive things so that despite massive changes compared to reality, the wider world is all generally the same.

Well there is also the consequences of their actions. Invincible has had him play at this sort of thing, but when he got it wrong the end results where catastrophic.
But the series did end with a unrecognizable earth and a sci-fi ish earth.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2021, 08:11:15 AM »
Hey, remember back when they did this shit with Stormwatch and the Authority? Except they actually were doing more than just walking around with signs?

Zelen

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2021, 09:08:47 PM »
You're right, hacks like Alan Moore and that obscure comic he wrote ages ago called Watchmen have no place in the comics industry.

Watchmen is completely steeped in superhero tropes, the entire point of the comic is to engage with them. It's a well-crafted and internally consistent story. Whereas with these modern Marvel/DC comics, the impression is the author is embarrassed of writing superhero comics, and are happy to insert their own political concerns even where doing so makes no sense and violates the internal consistency of the characters/story/setting.

Pat

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2021, 10:03:30 PM »
You're right, hacks like Alan Moore and that obscure comic he wrote ages ago called Watchmen have no place in the comics industry.

Watchmen is completely steeped in superhero tropes, the entire point of the comic is to engage with them. It's a well-crafted and internally consistent story. Whereas with these modern Marvel/DC comics, the impression is the author is embarrassed of writing superhero comics, and are happy to insert their own political concerns even where doing so makes no sense and violates the internal consistency of the characters/story/setting.
You were arguing that people who don't like those tropes shouldn't write them. Watchmen is deconstructing those tropes rather than embracing them, and Moore is on record expressing his dislike for many of them. I do think the quality of the work matters, whether or not it rejects or embodies them. Though I wouldn't call it embarrassment. The comics industry isn't big and lucrative enough to attract people who aren't fans of the medium in some form or the other. I think it's more that they dislike specific tropes, but fail to understand them. Moore, by contrast, was successful at subverting the tropes because he has a deep understanding of them.

Zelen

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2021, 10:43:46 PM »
You were arguing that people who don't like those tropes shouldn't write them. Watchmen is deconstructing those tropes rather than embracing them, and Moore is on record expressing his dislike for many of them. I do think the quality of the work matters, whether or not it rejects or embodies them. Though I wouldn't call it embarrassment. The comics industry isn't big and lucrative enough to attract people who aren't fans of the medium in some form or the other. I think it's more that they dislike specific tropes, but fail to understand them. Moore, by contrast, was successful at subverting the tropes because he has a deep understanding of them.

I phrased what I said specifically to try to include stuff like Moore's Watchmen. YMMV whether you feel that wording succeeded or not.

The broader point that I wasn't expressing -- That superhero comics authors should generally like superhero comics & their tropes -- I also agree with, but only if we're limiting our discussion to the serial comics (e.g. Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc) that are always in print. Authors that are interested in genre-subversion should create spin-off works (like Watchmen), not poison the mainstream of the genre/art form/industry.

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2021, 12:27:56 AM »
The idea of superheroes even having a sexuality is kind of odd. Do the fans imagine that Thor comes down from the heavens, hooks up with a twink who resembles the fan remarkably, they settle down behind a white picket fence and adopt a baby from Ethiopia?

If we want to bring sexuality into it, let's go for the original stories! Zeus comes down from the heavens, turns into a swan and rapes a woman.

Or, you know, maybe not.

By the way, do superheroes even fight crime any more? Seems like they spend all their time either moping or fighting other superheros.

Pat

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2021, 06:40:45 AM »
You were arguing that people who don't like those tropes shouldn't write them. Watchmen is deconstructing those tropes rather than embracing them, and Moore is on record expressing his dislike for many of them. I do think the quality of the work matters, whether or not it rejects or embodies them. Though I wouldn't call it embarrassment. The comics industry isn't big and lucrative enough to attract people who aren't fans of the medium in some form or the other. I think it's more that they dislike specific tropes, but fail to understand them. Moore, by contrast, was successful at subverting the tropes because he has a deep understanding of them.

I phrased what I said specifically to try to include stuff like Moore's Watchmen. YMMV whether you feel that wording succeeded or not.

The broader point that I wasn't expressing -- That superhero comics authors should generally like superhero comics & their tropes -- I also agree with, but only if we're limiting our discussion to the serial comics (e.g. Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc) that are always in print. Authors that are interested in genre-subversion should create spin-off works (like Watchmen), not poison the mainstream of the genre/art form/industry.
I'm not really on board with much of the comic fandom's take on staying authentic to the sources. It seems to be less fidelity to some objective source, and more a rejection of things that are different from the stories they like (usually the stories they read in their formative years). After all, if we wanted to stay faithful to the original stories, Superman would be shaking down reporters who think the wrong way, instead of being an apple pie and mom American hero. That's revisionism, but it's a very successful case of revisionism, which has eclipsed the original. I also see spin-off media as entirely new expressions -- I don't really care if a movie is faithful to the comics, because it's inherently a reimagining, anyway. I see some value in consistency in ongoing stories within the same medium -- like serial comic books -- but I think an elastic band metaphor might be apt. Authors can stretch the boundaries, but they should allow it to snap back to the core themes and ideas rather than break. If the new stuff is interesting, the core will shift, but it's gradual. I also like Elseworlds and What If?.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2021, 08:17:29 AM »
The idea of superheroes even having a sexuality is kind of odd. Do the fans imagine that Thor comes down from the heavens, hooks up with a twink who resembles the fan remarkably, they settle down behind a white picket fence and adopt a baby from Ethiopia?

If we want to bring sexuality into it, let's go for the original stories! Zeus comes down from the heavens, turns into a swan and rapes a woman.

Or, you know, maybe not.

By the way, do superheroes even fight crime any more? Seems like they spend all their time either moping or fighting other superheros.
Oh, Kyle. Did you miss the story where Thor cross-dresses as a woman to sneak into a giant stronghold and get Mjolnir back? Or the one where Loki turned into a female horse to help the Aesir win a bet? Yes, these are actual Norse myths.

That being said, though, it'd be nice if superheroes spent a little less time whining and a little more time punching faces. I mean, I like a little existential angst, but if you spend all your time brooding like an emo Hot Topic model, it gets boring.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2021, 01:05:37 PM »
Deconstruction is overrated. Without deeper insight or reconstruction, its almost valueless unless its a necacary enditement of something.

So yes. Deconstruction from a position of hate and not love is generally shit. Which is what moore and watchmen is.

Moores commentary is as deep as “if superman smelled and was called smellyman, people wouldn’t like him and it would be stupid.”
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 01:07:29 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

Lurkndog

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2021, 03:36:02 PM »
It's actually Miracleman by Alan Moore that really pisses me off.

When I first read them back in the 80's I was impressed by their edginess. I mean, fuck, I was 19.

But much later on I finally read the original golden age Captain Marvel comics, and was blown away. Those comics were a legit 20 years ahead of their time. Clean, high quality art, and storylines that impressed me as an adult. There's a continuing storyline early on where Captain Marvel is trying to stop SpySmasher, a superhero who has been brainwashed into serving as a criminal, and it's basically the perfect Superman vs Batman story.

(And I haven't even gotten to read the good stuff yet, because DC Archives pulled the plug on Shazam Archives before they could publish the Captain Marvel versus the Monster Society of Evil arc, which is apparently the first great "all of his enemies gang up on the superhero" story. Thanks, DC. )

Compared to the Golden Age originals, Miracleman just seems like a retard setting his toys on fire.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2021, 04:32:18 PM »
It's actually Miracleman by Alan Moore that really pisses me off.

Oh I didn't even bring up Miracle Man because its more obscure. All of his noteworthy shit is indeed just retardedly smashing toys together because he hates his job.

Zelen

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2021, 06:00:27 PM »
Deconstruction is overrated. Without deeper insight or reconstruction, its almost valueless unless its a necessary indictment of something.

I agree. It's obvious that you can have a limited amount of "deconstruction" of particular tropes and patterns, but if you let that become dominant within the mainstream then it destroys the medium.

If you're playing a song, then having some asshole start banging on a frying pan might occasionally be okay and even add to the song. But if all you have are assholes banging on random objects you don't have a song anymore.

jhkim

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2021, 07:10:28 PM »
I agree. It's obvious that you can have a limited amount of "deconstruction" of particular tropes and patterns, but if you let that become dominant within the mainstream then it destroys the medium.

If you're playing a song, then having some asshole start banging on a frying pan might occasionally be okay and even add to the song. But if all you have are assholes banging on random objects you don't have a song anymore.

I'm in agreement about Alan Moore -- though in music, I actually liked Stomp and similar drumming shows.

My favorite re-invented superheroes is Astro City, which is a more positive reinvention rather than deconstruction.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Superman is gay.
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2021, 10:56:13 PM »
I'm in agreement about Alan Moore -- though in music, I actually liked Stomp and similar drumming shows.

To stretch this metaphor further: people sometimes confuse just trying something new or different with deconstruction. But thats just new creation: not deconstruction.

I also like Stomp.