Why would anybody dispute an empirical fact?

Aw Geez......


 If you follow the uber "meta-thread".....I've indirectly answered this many times....

 In various threads , here and on the big purple , I've read after game actual play reports, been to websites and the dreaded forge forums as a browser....i HAVE read up on these things.

 Even objectively described a few of them to co-workers at the game store and regular customers about 9 months ago.....

 The more I found out about them, the less I liked them.

 The so-called design philosophy that is used or put forth in most of them is counter to what I consider FUN in a roleplaying game.

Oh and the one I named earlier? Those are the the ones that I menytioned the most.

 The straw that broke the camel's back  - was all the Poison'd discussion back in late August and early September. If thats what Forge stuff leads to ...then I want no part of it.
 I run games for people that play HEROES (even if they are reluctant Heroes with lots of neuroses).  Sick stuff is not encouraged or promoted in the kind of RPG that i run or want to play in.


- Ed C.

I don't think you can use an objective fact to prove a subjective opinion.

Quote from: droogWhy would anybody dispute an empirical fact?

Furthermore, them being miniscule sellers does not seem to be harming their economic future.  Their model of production and consumption is so far effective enough that their producers and consumers are able to gradually increase their production and consumption.  So, albeit a teeny slice (of an already teeny market), they are economically viable and growing.  Whether it lasts or not, I wouldn't dare say, but I'd say that survival can be considered success in our hobby.

Quote from: Koltari HAVE read up on these things.

So now we've gone from "you only have to read a game to know if it's any good" to "you only have to read UP on a game to know if it's any good".  What's next, you only have to hear about it?

Quote from: KoltarThe straw that broke the camel's back  - was all the Poison'd discussion back in late August and early September. If thats what Forge stuff leads to ...then I want no part of it.

Poison'd leads to cabin-boy neck-raping gaming sessions.  Poison'd is an indie game.  Ergo, all indie-games lead to cabin-boy neck-raping sessions.

Now something about that logical construction reminds me of something....

Quote from: KoltarGee, some folks have not been paying attention.

 Remember all of the Poison'd threads? That was a "Forge"/Indie game.

You know...they're not all created equal, right?

 

Quote from: KoltarDogs in the Vineyard - I HAVE read up on it. My Aunt, Uncle   and cousins are all Church of Latter Day Saints. NOT interested in playing Puppies in the Swineyard...even less so after reading actual pay reports that there were links to after the whole Pirates/Poison'd fracas.  I think of DitV as kind of insulting actually.

Emphasis mine.  I value your opinion in general, but I can't trust a review or opinion on a game you haven't actually read.  That's the reason I don't talk about Rolemaster or Rifts, I am not really informed enough to critique the games.

Quote from: KoltarREAL , traditional playing games have plentry of moral dilemmas possiblre without artificially putting them in there or being rude to the potential players. Also seen a copy of ELFS , read through it some ...what an insulting bit of garbage.  Most opf these "Forge" games are touchy-feely crap.

Dogs does not "artificially insert" moral dilemmas any more than a traditional RPG, nor is it rude.  Both of those would become readily apparent to you if you read it. I agree that Elfs is a piece of garbage, it's deliberately insulting to gamers.   I agree that most forge games are crap, but in proportion, no more are crap than in the rest of the market.

Quote from: KoltarMost FORGE games are just crap....or border on a waste of time.

I wasn't aware you were so well read.  I have read most of their games, on the other hand (not so much in the last year, though).  I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, I just wish you could have an opinion on one based on actually reading or playing one.

Quote from: KoltarAw Geez......


 If you follow the uber "meta-thread".....I've indirectly answered this many times....

 In various threads , here and on the big purple , I've read after game actual play reports, been to websites and the dreaded forge forums as a browser....i HAVE read up on these things.

 Even objectively described a few of them to co-workers at the game store and regular customers about 9 months ago.....

 The more I found out about them, the less I liked them.

 The so-called design philosophy that is used or put forth in most of them is counter to what I consider FUN in a roleplaying game.

Oh and the one I named earlier? Those are the the ones that I menytioned the most.

 The straw that broke the camel's back  - was all the Poison'd discussion back in late August and early September. If thats what Forge stuff leads to ...then I want no part of it.
 I run games for people that play HEROES (even if they are reluctant Heroes with lots of neuroses).  Sick stuff is not encouraged or promoted in the kind of RPG that i run or want to play in.


- Ed C.

That's very interesting.

So which Forge games and their ilk aren't crap?

Quote from: joewolzDogs does not "artificially insert" moral dilemmas any more than a traditional RPG

I'm not sure what you're saying here... the moral dilemmas aren't artifically inserted... or regular RPGs have just as many moral dilemmas?

Quote from: PeteThat's very interesting.

So which Forge games and their ilk aren't crap?

Can't think of one.

 Especially if the attitudes and philosophy of their designers are so similar.

some companies play the game

some companies break the rules

some companies are playing a different game entirely

variety is good

but I don't think dodgy weirdo sickass stuff is acceptable or cool

survival without self-respect isn't success

all traditional games aren't Synnibarr

all 'Forge-game' designers aren't the same either


don't we all know this stuff already ?

My good friend T. had a chr in Gamma World (1st ed.) who had a gigantic retractable armoured penis. His line was (croaking) "Come on baby, you know you want it."

My friend B.'s RQ chr used to get stiffies in combat.

Of course, they're both dead now, so presumably God wasn't amused.

That don't make it right

cuz you can't derive an 'ought' from an 'is' - someone said

hang on - you said that, droog !

- this geordie idiot is confused ?!?!

Quote from: KoltarCan't think of one.

 Especially if the attitudes and philosophy of their designers are so similar.

Fair enough, thanks.

Should you ever decide to practice what you preach here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=162721&postcount=34
stay away from games designed by Ron Edwards and Vincent Baker.  They do all that codified morality-play shit you don't like.

Quote from: PeteFair enough, thanks.

LOL !

Quote from: SeanJason Morningstar's least Forgey game  - Dungeon Squad

Do Burning Wheel and Reign count, or are they just Indie ?

TSOY maybe, I've never played but it's the one people tell me I'd love so I'll give it a try. also that Melingor bloke seems to rate it, and he seems sussed.

Mortal Coil - with a decent GM.

I also play using a variant of 'The Pool' - I like it much better than Wushu.

BUT that's just my opinion.

The Pool is better than Wushu, yes.

TSoY is one of the best fantasy RPG I have ever seen (that's a lot). Indie or not. I don't have much interest in fluff so I'm mostly talking system here. Solid mid-crunch that is very well-thought out. Maybe you'll think differently since you seem to like Burning Wheel and I think it badly sucks ass.

I really like Primetime Adventure. It's definitly "Forgey" in many ways and totally rocks at what it does.

A game that surprised me is the gimmicky Mountain Witch. It somehow works. Very elegant, very clean and kind of cool. Some portable ideas in there too. The first time we tried, our GM and the group struggled a little. Second time was really great stuff that you can't pull with a traditional game.

After Mountain Witch, my friend got Agon. This one is tough to wrap my head around. We haven't played yet but there are some very nifty rules there that, once again, might have the potential to be ported to traditional gaming.

That's all I can think of as far as great experiences. Games I really didn't like: Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, DitV, Dust Devils, Elfs, Wushu, Don't Rest Your Head, Capes.

Games that were just ok: INSpectres, Octane,