Comments on starwars starting with the Last Jedi.
I liked it.

First off I subscribe to the Starwars Ring theory.  http://www.starwarsringtheory.com

It would help if you read or were familiar with the ring thoery but I hope its not absolutely necessary.  I also found that an enjoyable read so I offer it for your enjoyment.  

I liked the Last Jedi.  But it didn't have the same magic for me as the originals.  Part of that is none of us are 8 years old any more.  Part of it can be sumed up in this exchange.

"The new ones are good but not that good."

"That's true but hardly a fair comparison when you remember that, 'that good' was good enough to luanch a minor religion."


But I think the biggest reason is the they don't have the same charisma, the same chemistry.  There was Magic between Luke, Leia and Han.  Chewy fit in, the Droids had their own dynamic going on which fit in with the main three.  Of all of them Ben Kenobi was the week link, and he wasn't bad he just wasn't part of the magic.  When Lando shows up he is instantly part of the chemistry.  

On the other hand Darth Vader is the most bad ass villian ever created.  

That Magic came from the Actors not the director or the script.  We can see that in the Prequles, the Anikin story.  There is just no magic.  No chemistry.  Padme and Anakin fall in love becuase it says so on page 23 of attack of the clones.  I think in the New ones, the Kylo and Rey story, the director gets out of the way but the script might be too good.  There is chemistry in those movies, but not as much.  I have this feeling (supported by what I have heard) that Lucas had a bunch of Dumb Ideas for the original movies (Luke story) and the actors told him to stuff it and did what they wanted.  Thats a bit extream but I have that feeling.

On to The last Jedi.  The Last Jedi sets a huge task for its self.  It needs to continue the Story.  It decideds to redeem the Anikin movies.  And it subverts the heroic naritive.  It does all of this very well, the weak spot is chemistry.  And I think the week part in the Chemistry is the Script.  

There are a couple of what I call Guradians of the Galaxy spots.  The best example is Poe prank calling General Hugs.  Ha ha, very funny but it doesn't belong in a StarWars movie.  I think Disney has become a victem of its own success to an extent.  Guradians Vol. 1 was a great movie and the best parts were the guardians moments.  Since then those monents are showing up in every movie they make, they work in some movies Thor Ragnarok, but not in others Last Jedi.  Those moments have to be written, they come from the script not the Director and not the Actors.

 I think it is harder to have real chemistry now than it used to be.  In 2018 the nerd is ascendant.  Nerds aren't cool.  (Except in the bazaar since that uncool is cool)  Lando was Cool.  Leia was confident. Even Luke a hapless farm boy from the middle of nowhere is unselfconscious.  

There is Great chemistry between Kylo and Rey.  Really steller preformances when they are on screen together.  Rose and Fin are good together but not magic, certainly not Han and Leia.  

Frankly Luke is pretty lame through most of the movie.  He has moments but meh.  This makes sense but isn't fun to watch.  Luke has lost his faith in himself and his power and his order.  I don't think he is avoiding his responsibility but has decided it is his responsibility to be absent.  So even when he is there he isn't.  

His return however is pure Awesomesauce!  If you haven't seen it I won't spoil it but he is a true Jedi master and a match for his apprentice.  Just like OB Wan is a match for his aprentence (but differently.)  Its a comanding performance from Hammil.  

-There may have been spoilers before now, there are major spoilers from here out.  


Now onto subverting the heroic narrative and escaping the cycle.  Poe does most of the work subverting the narritive, denying the tropes.  In movies a dareing plan always works.  The good guys through grit and deterimation and a friendly spript writer always pull up a win against imposibble odds.  Poe knows that and he plays his part, but someone flipped the script on him and he takes the whole movie to figure it out.  He attacks and destroys the dreadnought at great risk to himself, but he survives.  He does lose half his squadron.  Then the mutiny, then his unauthorized mission to destroy the tracker, which leaks and lets the cloaked transports be discovered and half of them destroyed.  Poe the heroic flyboy nearly destrys the resistance.

I was happy with this, even though it is let down after let down, things go from bad to worse and none of his heroic gamibits pay off.  Its hard to watch.  I was happy they did it.  Unfortunately Poe is burnt.  Commanders who have the sensitivity to learn the lesson Poe learns by the end of the movie blow their brains out.  He is single handly responsible for the death of 3 quarters of the remaining resistance.  300 people?  And it wasn't bad luck, it wasn't an accident, it wasn't fog of war.  It was pure arrogance on his part.  He placed his need to win above the mission and the lives of his soldiers.  Real people who realize they have done that are wrecked. (Except for the 2% socio path).

I don't see how Poe can be in the next movie.

Back to Luke.  Luke when tutoring Rey, in the part of the movie I said he was absent even when on screen is explicitly tring to redeem the Anikin stories.  He is trying to end the Jedi order becuase they have their head way up there ass.  He also has a much better philosophy of the force than either the Luke movies or the Anakin Movies.  More to say on this but I will move on.

Now why is Poe subverting tropes and wrecking the heroic narrative.  Why is Luke trying to be the last Jedi?

Kylo has the answer.  He says it explicitly; end the past, "Kill it, if you have to."  Kylo doesn't know he is in a ring cycle but the theif played by Benicio del Toro does.  He says "they blow you up today, you blow them up tomorrow."

This movie is about escaping the cycle I think, charting a new path.  I need to go back and reread that ring theory peice and see what the job of the last two movies is.


This has gotten too long.  

Tldr.  
Good philosophy not the same chemistry as the first ones.
Where the Luke movies had great chemistry and weak philosophy.  

In a movie chemistry is more fun to watch.

I liked it. It's poorly written, but well acted. It's in the same league as PM or AotC.  

It's a bottom rung SW film, but undeserving of the hate overreaction it's getting.

The Last Jedi cemented the feeling, growing for me since the first Aftermath novel, that "too old and not woke enough am I to begin the training."

   But I invested about a quarter-century in the old EU/Legends continuity. I have no qualms about them leaving that behind (although I think they could have included more than they did), and I acknowledge that a good chunk of it makes The Phantom Menace look like Citizen Kane. But that investment means that any new material is both a) going to have to clear a high bar compared to my curated version of the old, and b) material which I don't need in order to find out 'what happens next'--I've picked my version that I'm happy with, and given that neither one comes from George Lucas, neither one has a higher claim on 'authenticity' for me than the other.

Disclaimer: I have not seen TLJ, and I don't plan to see it. I won't avoid it, but I'm not interested in these new films after watching TFA. But the reason for that has a bit of bearing on your post.

Quote from: Headless;1032512Now why is Poe subverting tropes and wrecking the heroic narrative.  Why is Luke trying to be the last Jedi?

Kylo has the answer.  He says it explicitly; end the past, "Kill it, if you have to."  Kylo doesn't know he is in a ring cycle but the theif played by Benicio del Toro does.  He says "they blow you up today, you blow them up tomorrow."

This movie is about escaping the cycle I think, charting a new path.  I need to go back and reread that ring theory peice and see what the job of the last two movies is.

I think the sequel trilogy could have been really powerful as a deconstruction of the original trilogy. Not a mean spirited one that demeans the original material, but a thoughful one that asks questions and then attempts to answer them.
But. the new trilogy is far too mired in fanservice. Hell, past the first 20 minutes of TFA is where I lost attention because it was so fanservicey. It's not that they aped the original trilogy, it's that they chained themselves to it.

But. And here is the dissonance that causes me to tune out.
It also deconstructs everything about the original trilogy in a mean spiritied way. The Empire rebranded itself and came back, Han and Leia broke up, their son went over to the dark side, Luke failed at being a mentor, R2-D2 just plain shut down out of despair. Jesus christ, they may as well have kicked a puppy while they were at it.

From what I've heard of TLJ, it sounds like they had a really good idea, of breaking the cycle, and creating their own destiny, and then dropped that idea in the execution because they're also in the process of that mean spiritied deconstruction.


So, I don't care to watch them fumble the job anymore. The one thing that got me through the prequels was the hope that Lucas could pull a rabbit out of his hat and make the prequels turn out ok. The new films don't have that going for them.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1032546I liked it. It's poorly written, but well acted. It's in the same league as PM or AotC.  

It's a bottom rung SW film, but undeserving of the hate overreaction it's getting.

I think it's fair to call The Last Jedi poorly written - but I'd put it definitely above the prequels, which I thought were both poorly written and poorly acted. (I found most prequel dialog scenes painful to sit through.)

I thought it was a little too convoluted and derivative compared to the original series, but on that basis I'd put it as a middle run SW film.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1032585So, I don't care to watch them fumble the job anymore. The one thing that got me through the prequels was the hope that Lucas could pull a rabbit out of his hat and make the prequels turn out ok. The new films don't have that going for them.

But did that rabbit appear for you?  I didn't think so.  I would hope more for something like The Empire Strikes Back, where someone other than Lucas takes the helm and adds to the mix.

Quote from: jhkim;1032803But did that rabbit appear for you?  I didn't think so.  

You know, I'm going to say yes. The prequels weren't great, and I agree with most criticisms of them, and I'm so dissapointed that a great idea, the Good Guy hero turns against the world, wasn't quite played out as I'd hoped.
But I didn't think they were atrocious. So it's kind of a meh, they definitely didn't live up to their potential.

QuoteI would hope more for something like The Empire Strikes Back, where someone other than Lucas takes the helm and adds to the mix.

I'd agree, but Lucas is altogether gone, and the people taking the reins don't seem to have any insight into what made Star Wars so great in the first place.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1032812I'd agree, but Lucas is altogether gone, and the people taking the reins don't seem to have any insight into what made Star Wars so great in the first place.

Rogue One.

It is the best movie/show of the entire franchise so far IMHO.

Quote from: jeff37923;1032837Rogue One.

It is the best movie/show of the entire franchise so far IMHO.

I'd disagree there. But I do think that Rogue One was better than TFA or TLJ.

Something that occurred to me.

  Hate on the Expanded Universe, the Prequels, the Special Editions, or even Return of the Jedi, and you're still a Star Wars fan in good standing (or were back when I was engaged with the broader fan community). Dislike The Last Jedi, and you seem more likely to be called out as an Enemy of the People.

  Is it because it's newer, because the divide is more even, because a lot of people have used it as a reason to give up on Star Wars altogether, or because people on both sides have invested TLJ with more sociopolitical meaning than the others? Or is it just my imagination?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1032964Something that occurred to me.

  Hate on the Expanded Universe, the Prequels, the Special Editions, or even Return of the Jedi, and you're still a Star Wars fan in good standing (or were back when I was engaged with the broader fan community). Dislike The Last Jedi, and you seem more likely to be called out as an Enemy of the People.

  Is it because it's newer, because the divide is more even, because a lot of people have used it as a reason to give up on Star Wars altogether, or because people on both sides have invested TLJ with more sociopolitical meaning than the others? Or is it just my imagination?

Well, you went there. So... I think there's a lot of culture war baggage being brought into entertainment. So yeah, If you didn't like TLJ or the Ghostbusters reboot or Black Panther, then there's a non-zero amount of people, a lot of them critics and "journalists" who will assume you're on the 'other side' of the culture war, and say so loudly and with a lot of culture war jargon.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1032854I'd disagree there. But I do think that Rogue One was better than TFA or TLJ.

See, that's something that I think most people have forgotten. Just because you have differing opinions does not make you any more or less of a fan. You don't suddenly become "The Enemy" if you disagree. I think that attitude is something that has creeped in from the SJW culture war.

Quote from: jhkim;1032803I think it's fair to call The Last Jedi poorly written - but I'd put it definitely above the prequels, which I thought were both poorly written and poorly acted. (I found most prequel dialog scenes painful to sit through.)

I thought it was a little too convoluted and derivative compared to the original series, but on that basis I'd put it as a middle run SW film.

Eh, I'll concede that the Prequels are poorly acted, but that complaint applies to the new trilogy as well.

Finn and Rey come across as very flat most of the time. Now, I've not seen Ridley in anything else, but Boyega was the only good thing in the new Pacific Rim film (which was over all complete shit). He's a good actor, even if I don't personally like the guy.

The best ones so far have been Luke and Poe. Solo, Holdo and Leia were just kinda there. Looking bewildered as if they were just handed different scripts that said the exact opposite of what they'd been rehearsing.

And they're all good actors in other films. It's like the directors of both films have taken a page out of Lucas's playbook and ground the talent down to the most basic of performance.

@jeff or rat man or whomever.
I would agree that the culture war is looking to engulf starwars criticism in the wider web.  But that doesn't have to happen here.  

As for preformances, I think Rey and Finn only come accross flat when together (and not flat like Anikin movies flat just normal movie flat) Rey is great when she gets to play against Kylo.  Finn is good playing against Kylo as well.  Finn is good playing off of Han too.  I don't think they are bad actors, but maybe there charcter is unformed, and needs a mold to come into focus. (Did I mix enough metaphors for the cale to rise)

I found The Last Jedi entertaining but the story was, well stupid. Some of the humor felt forced and out of place (in the middle of battle for example with no real context). Snoke seemed wasted and so much for being such a "powerful" force user.

I think I rank the movies in order as: 5, 4, 3, 6, 7, 1, 8, 2. I probably place Rogue One between 3 and 6.

I hated Last Jedi. This is some of the most god awful writing of the whole series. Id rather sit through BOTH the Ewok movies than watch Last Jedi again.