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Author Topic: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great  (Read 4173 times)

Pat

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2022, 02:53:46 PM »
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2022, 05:09:08 PM »
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
I missed the part where the Jedi conspired to destroy a (largely) peaceful participatory galactic government through inciting a massive war from both sides with the goal of seizing power over the totalitarian government that emerged.

Lurkndog

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2022, 05:28:53 PM »
Overall I liked TCW. It helps to redeem the worst parts of the prequel movies. In particular, its depiction of Anakin Skywalker is so much better than the prequel movies.

TCW also had a really big budget for an animated show, and it let them cut loose and do things on a massive scale when they wanted to.

I also think the abundance of 2-4 episode storylines was a good thing. It allowed them to tell more complex stories when the material demanded it. (And since a two-parter generally used the same models and sets over both episodes, it may have actually saved them some dough on asset creation, or at least allowed them to spread out the cost of new assets.)

That said, I did find it pretty uneven. There is some great stuff in there, but also some parts that were not very good, and even kind of a slog. Season 3 was particularly uneven, as I recall.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 05:44:22 PM by Lurkndog »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2022, 05:40:33 PM »
Overall I liked TCW. It helps to redeem the worst parts of the prequel movies. In particular, its depiction of Anakin Skywalker is so much better than the prequel movies.

Now this is an argument I understand, even if it could have been done better. With character development instead of re-write. Wherien he becomes a completly different person in the span of 2 months (while also getting Knighthood and a padawan).

Lurkndog

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2022, 06:05:44 PM »
Now this is an argument I understand, even if it could have been done better. With character development instead of re-write. Wherien he becomes a completly different person in the span of 2 months (while also getting Knighthood and a padawan).

Yes, it still could have been done better, but the setup for TCW limited how far they could go. They couldn't take Anakin to the point of his fall, or even foreshadow it all that heavily, because a) that story beat is reserved for the third movie, and b) at that point you're not building up the tragic hero, you're starting to tear him down prematurely.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2022, 06:11:24 PM »
Yes, it still could have been done better.

What I mean is he transitions from 'Whiny Child' to 'An OK dude thats 3 years older' in the span of 2 months cannonically. It might have been better to see him develop into a better person instead of just making him so.
Its weird they skipped on all of his character development, and then added a new character to have it happen to her (sorta).

Omega

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2022, 12:45:51 AM »
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
I missed the part where the Jedi conspired to destroy a (largely) peaceful participatory galactic government through inciting a massive war from both sides with the goal of seizing power over the totalitarian government that emerged.

That was episode 2.  8)

heh. No the Jedi are worse because they drive Anakin to the dark side with their combined indifference to his visions and struggles, and their hatred and supression of emotions. They make it easy for Palpatine to predate on Anakins fears. They also make it easy for the populace to distrust them. Take note that they were so off course that they couldnt even detect a sith shaking hands with them.

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2022, 06:24:53 AM »
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
I missed the part where the Jedi conspired to destroy a (largely) peaceful participatory galactic government through inciting a massive war from both sides with the goal of seizing power over the totalitarian government that emerged.

That was episode 2.  8)

heh. No the Jedi are worse because they drive Anakin to the dark side with their combined indifference to his visions and struggles, and their hatred and supression of emotions. They make it easy for Palpatine to predate on Anakins fears. They also make it easy for the populace to distrust them. Take note that they were so off course that they couldnt even detect a sith shaking hands with them.
So the Jedi are just as bad because they failed to coddle one weak member that turned on them? No, the failure was ultimately Anakin's, but he didn't take any personal responsibility for a few more decades.

Lurkndog

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2022, 11:01:33 AM »
Yes, it still could have been done better.

What I mean is he transitions from 'Whiny Child' to 'An OK dude thats 3 years older' in the span of 2 months cannonically. It might have been better to see him develop into a better person instead of just making him so.
Its weird they skipped on all of his character development, and then added a new character to have it happen to her (sorta).

I never thought of it that way! That's an interesting point.

I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

Lurkndog

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2022, 11:20:52 AM »
heh. No the Jedi are worse because they drive Anakin to the dark side with their combined indifference to his visions and struggles, and their hatred and supression of emotions. They make it easy for Palpatine to predate on Anakins fears. They also make it easy for the populace to distrust them. Take note that they were so off course that they couldnt even detect a sith shaking hands with them.
So the Jedi are just as bad because they failed to coddle one weak member that turned on them? No, the failure was ultimately Anakin's, but he didn't take any personal responsibility for a few more decades.

I think the prequel-era Jedi definitely did wrong by Anakin. Their attachment to detachment robbed them of basic sympathy for a young man in his time of need. It's no wonder he turned to Padme, and didn't see Palpatine for what he was.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2022, 12:23:50 PM »
Yeah, the attempts to make the jedi look like villains were poorly done. I say that as someone who actually likes the idea of writing jedi and sith as villains or heroes in different contexts. On the bright side, it could be so much worse. Case in point:

Starcraft, an IP that I have a love/hate relationship with, suffers a similar problem. Except here it's supposed to be "light side bad! dark side good!" Except even then the writers are too incompetent to stay consistent on that. All of the light side villains have reasonable motivations if you bother to read the lore (which isn't actually explained in the game but in supplemental books nobody reads, because again the writers are fucking idiots). All of the other villains are dark siders anyhow, and all of them are sociopaths, idiots or both except for one sympathetic villain who only appears in supplemental sources written by freelancers. In fact, the light side only becomes a villain w/o reasonable motives when it gets subverted by the main antagonist of the second game (who has been retconned as the main villain of the entire franchise up to that point) who is a dark sider with plot device powers that do anything the plot requires.

I didn't think it was possible to be worse than the Star Wars sequels, but Starcraft somehow is worse. And it's not even woke, either. The game was made by sex offenders who constantly wrote the female characters as shallow eye-candy who can get away with genocide because the writers are simping for them.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2022, 01:00:03 PM »
I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

I would have added a Padawan friend and another master instead. In addition I would add a planet that is a center of conflict regularly, so we get to know it and where consequences could carry.

Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2022, 02:49:33 PM »
I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

I would have added a Padawan friend and another master instead. In addition I would add a planet that is a center of conflict regularly, so we get to know it and where consequences could carry.

Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.
In Star Wars, planets are equivalent to one of our villages, towns, or cities. Over focus on one planet would not have fit the scale of the war.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2022, 03:01:11 PM »
In Star Wars, planets are equivalent to one of our villages, towns, or cities. Over focus on one planet would not have fit the scale of the war.

And before it was torn to pieces by “lighspeed jumping”, hyperspace lanes caused certain planets to become critical points for travel and defense.

And I didn’t say it should have been the ONLY planet. Just a regular one. One place we care about will convey more about the consequences of war then a dozen places of no interest.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2022, 03:26:33 PM »
Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.

  They did a story along those lines in the comics Dark Horse was putting out between Episodes II and III; look for the "Last Stand on Jabiim" arc.