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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 11:03:35 AM

Title: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 11:03:35 AM
Im still on a Star Wars kick, after re-watching the prequels for the first time in possibly a decade. And I came away positively suprised. The flaws where flaws, but it also had good stuff.

This got me to re-watch 'The Clone Wars' which I watched maybe 5 or so years ago. And my takeaways where not so positive. I have ALLOT of bugaboos with this show, but at the center is that its immensly boring. Maybe this is a George thing, (but certainly is a Filoni thing), but dear god can they not make their antagonists threatening. Its one thing to make your antagonists a bunch of moustache twirling villians with no pathos or twisted but interesting goals (heroes on both sides my ass - some token senators don't count), but do they have to be utterly incompitent as well?

Im left dully watching the screen waiting not if the heroes will win, but when. The only time I know the villians will score a victory is if its phyrric, against a bunch of jobbers, or would end the plot. And tense things Im scared to lose is still absolutely possible to accomplish even if the fate of the main protagonists and the overall story is already known.

But lack of stakes is my primary poblem, but it has much more. I find the characters pretty dull, I find what they attempt to recontextualize (IE retcon) to almost aways be for the worse, and I find its comedy annoying and often jarring.

And this has nothing to do with being a kids show. I like kids shows. Being mature isn't the same as being adult, and most adult media is not mature anyway. And I also know that War Drama is also possible in kids TV. Avatar the Last Airbender, or Exosquad, kept tension and stakes with murch harsher restrictions on violence then what TCN has. Its maddening because Filoni directed most of season 1 of ATLA, so Its insane that he didn't take away from some of its best writing.

This is ultimately my opinion, so whatever.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 18, 2022, 03:13:01 PM
The Cartoon? or the CGI show? Or both?

I found the cartoon to be ok. But both shows showcase how callous and often nasty the Jedi are. In some ways they are just as bad, if not at times far worse, than the Sith.

The CGI continuation mellows them a little. But not enough.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 03:20:52 PM
The CGI continuation mellows them a little. But not enough.

The CGI stuff. I don't remember the Jed being particularly callous in the animated Tartakovsky shorts.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 18, 2022, 07:13:28 PM
And this has nothing to do with being a kids show. I like kids shows. Being mature isn't the same as being adult, and most adult media is not mature anyway. And I also know that War Drama is also possible in kids TV. Avatar the Last Airbender, or Exosquad,

I just can't take Exosquad seriously. The fat burping guy killed it for me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 18, 2022, 07:14:49 PM
I just can't take Exosquad seriously. The fat burping guy killed it for me.

Oh it has its own flaws as well. Its very...toyetic and 90s in allot of places. I just dislike the excuse of 'Well its for kids'.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 18, 2022, 10:09:09 PM
I just can't take Exosquad seriously. The fat burping guy killed it for me.

Oh it has its own flaws as well. Its very...toyetic and 90s in allot of places. I just dislike the excuse of 'Well its for kids'.

Me too. It's a dumb excuse wielded like a "Get out of jail free" card for bad storytelling decisions.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Armchair Gamer on March 19, 2022, 10:24:48 AM

  I watched The Clone Wars while it was being broadcast, and enjoyed it at the time, but I haven't really gone back to it (despite having DVDs) and have some reservations about it. Ahsoka wound up being a good character in the end, but I never really bought into the idea of Anakin having a Padawan--it just seemed to be too big a thing to go without any mention elsewhere. I thought bringing Darth Maul back was a major misstep, and a lot of the other stuff done with the Force (the re-interpretation of the Dathomir witches, the Mortis Trilogy) wound up weird and over-the-top.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 20, 2022, 12:06:18 AM
The CGI continuation mellows them a little. But not enough.

The CGI stuff. I don't remember the Jed being particularly callous in the animated Tartakovsky shorts.

Rewatch it then and try and do a clone trooper body count. Theres one episode in particular where Kenobi throws what looks to be dozens, if not hundreds of lives. But theres some pretty bad Jedi in the CGI series too.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 12:08:24 AM
Rewatch it then and try and do a clone trooper body count.

I mean its actually pretty small, but its mostly by Droids or named bad guys instead of Jedi. I mean I like that the EU has materials backing this up, but the Tartakovsy series mainly consists of just fancy fight scenes and slow moments. And its mostly a series of shorts.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 20, 2022, 12:10:19 AM
And this has nothing to do with being a kids show. I like kids shows. Being mature isn't the same as being adult, and most adult media is not mature anyway. And I also know that War Drama is also possible in kids TV. Avatar the Last Airbender, or Exosquad,

I just can't take Exosquad seriously. The fat burping guy killed it for me.

I thought Exo-Squad was interesting. But not as great as it is sometimes painted to be. Yes it has some edge to it. But oddly despite its glaring flaws, the Battletech cartoon does it better. So does the Wing Commander cartoon. But something about that one really did not click with me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 20, 2022, 12:21:08 AM
Rewatch it then and try and do a clone trooper body count.

I mean its actually pretty small, but its mostly by Droids or named bad guys instead of Jedi. I mean I like that the EU has materials backing this up, but the Tartakovsy series mainly consists of just fancy fight scenes and slow moments. And its mostly a series of shorts.

Theres a vid or two that do a body count. Its actually alot higher than I though in the CGI series. But then the cartoon was quite short as you say. Yet still racks up a body count. Quite a few due to this or that Jedi sending them in to die in droves. Sometimes not.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 12:26:44 AM
Quite a few due to this or that Jedi sending them in to die in droves. Sometimes not.
Well that is more a stylistic thing. Because modern combat tactics are boring and unexciting. Dumb Cavalry charges are much more visually interesting.

Saying that the Jedi in the 2D animated thing racked up a large bodycount because their cold is akin to complaining about the impractical size physics of star destroyers.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: AtomicPope on March 20, 2022, 01:18:30 AM
The Clone Wars series from 2008 needs to be watched in chronological order.  Here is the official order to watch the series:

https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-clone-wars-chronological-episodeorder

The best thing about The Clone Wars is their operatic story arcs.  What sells it for me is how it shows the Jedi Council as callous politicians who question whether or not Yoda is senile, so they humor him, and how they sacrifice the padawan Asoka Tano to a corrupt Republic to save face.  That was probably the best way they could show why Anakin would lose faith in the Council without being overt, so years later when he has a choice he doesn't side with the Jedi.  We got to see Yoda confront his Dark Side.  We got to see Sith sorcery clouding Yoda's mind, sending him visions and distractions.  There is a lot of fluff and filler like the occasional "monster" episode but I really liked The Clone Wars series (2008).

Zero the Hutt was fun.  His voice is like a cross between Cartman and Truman Capote; Cartman Capote.  I died laughing when he tried to run away.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 20, 2022, 01:41:45 AM
And this has nothing to do with being a kids show. I like kids shows. Being mature isn't the same as being adult, and most adult media is not mature anyway. And I also know that War Drama is also possible in kids TV. Avatar the Last Airbender, or Exosquad,

I just can't take Exosquad seriously. The fat burping guy killed it for me.

I thought Exo-Squad was interesting. But not as great as it is sometimes painted to be. Yes it has some edge to it. But oddly despite its glaring flaws, the Battletech cartoon does it better. So does the Wing Commander cartoon. But something about that one really did not click with me.

I remember really liking the Wing Commander cartoon. Mostly the way the Kilrathi were portrayed as honorable, but only to other Kilrathi.
I should re-watch it to see if it's as good as I remember.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 07:50:03 AM
The best thing about The Clone Wars is their operatic story arcs.

What really bothered me about them was how frustrating and pointless they where. They often asked a question, and then resolved it with a no:

Will Anakins fate be changed by force gods? No.
Will Yoda learn anything important? No.
Will Maul achieve a secret empire? No.

The way it portrayed the Jedi as corrupt was utterly softball. The way they portray the war as a whole betrays the “hero on both sides” stuff. Having some token senators absolutely doesn’t count when 95% of everyone else is a giggling lunatic. It becomes that this was was unavoidable, Palpatine or not. And it makes Amidala wrong. This war isn’t a failure to listen. Turns out the outer rim is just filled with sick asshole aliens and sheeve did you a favor by making you an army to fight them.

TCW occasionally pretends at nuance, but only half heartedly, and then quickly returns to filler.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on March 20, 2022, 09:15:17 AM
To be honest, similar can be said about a lot of children’s cartoons in which the creators tried to be more mature. Indeed, it can be said for a lot of mature cartoons.

I don’t mind this very much. It’s unavoidable most of the time.

What I do mind is when fans do stupid stuff like place an accidental soft reboot on a pedestal despite it being 90% filler just because it came out during their nostalgic teenager years. That actually happened.

I didn’t watch TCW while it was actually airing, and quite frankly I’m not interested in watching anything Star Wars related. It’s being driven into the ground for the last few decades. I want to see new franchises, and hopefully ones that are better planned.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 10:17:50 AM
To be honest, similar can be said about a lot of children’s cartoons in which the creators tried to be more mature. Indeed, it can be said for a lot of mature cartoons.

Well media as a whole really. I don’t think it’s fair to single out Cartoons or childrens media when “adult” media is mostly just as immature if not moreso.

Edit: I also agree about star wars as a whole. Lets move on.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Pat on March 20, 2022, 12:15:24 PM
Rewatch it then and try and do a clone trooper body count.

I mean its actually pretty small, but its mostly by Droids or named bad guys instead of Jedi. I mean I like that the EU has materials backing this up, but the Tartakovsy series mainly consists of just fancy fight scenes and slow moments. And its mostly a series of shorts.
It's Samurai Jack with Jedi.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 12:25:25 PM
It's Samurai Jack with Jedi.
Yeah, which makes it awesome (if overpowered). Tartakovsky is welcome in my home any day.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on March 20, 2022, 01:43:50 PM
To be honest, similar can be said about a lot of children’s cartoons in which the creators tried to be more mature. Indeed, it can be said for a lot of mature cartoons.

Well media as a whole really. I don’t think it’s fair to single out Cartoons or childrens media when “adult” media is mostly just as immature if not moreso.

Edit: I also agree about star wars as a whole. Lets move on.
Sure.

I make a distinction between “adult” and “mature” cartoons, or at least I try to. The current marketing buzzword for mature cartoons is “American anime.” Because they don’t have the content restrictions that children’s cartoons do, they’re typically overindulgent in gratuitous sex and gore.

Invincible is a generic superhero show with a lot of gore tacked on and plot twists that were clichés decades ago. The tone is inconsistent from scene to scene, with slapstick comedy one moment then people being dismembered the next. The gore serves no purpose besides shock value and “adult” credentials. It feels like a teenager’s idea of what maturity is and doesn’t even commit to its own premise.

I could go on about Vox Machina, DOTA, Castlevania, Blood of Zeus, etc. It’s really frustrating. While I’m disappointed Infinity Train didn’t get renewed, I’m glad it wasn’t picked up by an adult network because then it would probably go overboard with gore and sex like all of these shows do. And it was a pretty violent show to begin with, complete with characters being crunched (offscreen) into salsa under train wheels, characters being bisected and surviving for hours afterward, cute cartoon characters being tortured by misbehaving children, characters having their souls eaten by giant cockroaches, etc.

Honestly, I think the content restrictions made the gruesome death and torture in Infinity Train more creative than the generic “and then they exploded into puddles of gore” that the faux anime shows resort to. There’s only so many times you can see disposable characters explode into puddles of gore before it gets repetitive.

Speaking of, the faux anime usually handle death in even worse fashion than Game of Thrones did. Beyond the nameless extras who exist solely to be ground into red paste… named characters either die immediately after being introduced and therefore their deaths have no impact, or they get some mild characterization before being killed for shock value and thus their deaths feel more frustrating than anything else. The protagonists themselves are never actually in danger of dying, so it becomes a tedious exercise in waiting to see which of the deuteragonists get fridged first.

There’s a reason why the only animation I’ve ever watched more than once as an adult is Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust. With everything else, I feel like I’m only watching out of a combination of desperation and obligation. It’s frustrating
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 02:00:46 PM
Invincible is a generic superhero show with a lot of gore tacked on and plot twists that were clichés decades ago.
The shame is the comic isn’t trying to be that. The source material is actually much more balanced in tone and less grotesque in its violence. The show is downright sadistic.

Its not “Superhero but fuckin dark maaaaaan”. Its a spiderman “coming of age” superhero story where the protagonist actually grows up, rejects a reboot, and has a conclusion to his story.
Its a Superhero story where consequences stick, and still filled with all the exotic superhero tropes (if you like them and I do).
Also there is no woke in the story. That was added in adaptation.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on March 20, 2022, 03:36:31 PM
Invincible is a generic superhero show with a lot of gore tacked on and plot twists that were clichés decades ago.
The shame is the comic isn’t trying to be that. The source material is actually much more balanced in tone and less grotesque in its violence. The show is downright sadistic.

Its not “Superhero but fuckin dark maaaaaan”. Its a spiderman “coming of age” superhero story where the protagonist actually grows up, rejects a reboot, and has a conclusion to his story.
Its a Superhero story where consequences stick, and still filled with all the exotic superhero tropes (if you like them and I do).
Also there is no woke in the story. That was added in adaptation.
Yeah, making the space nazis multiracial undermines the whole space nazi thing.

For me, the most unbelievable part is that this is a universe where Heaven and Hell are demonstrably real but nobody behaves as if that makes any difference.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 03:56:38 PM
For me, the most unbelievable part is that this is a universe where Heaven and Hell are demonstrably real but nobody behaves as if that makes any difference.
I mean that 'Demon Detective' is a gag character in the comic. He shows up to make deductions about things that where publicly known 6 months ago. He doesn't have a dramatic scene where he is pulled into hell because 'He knows too much!'.

(https://preview.redd.it/jb49hl2jwsq61.jpg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e43bc1a425b804d3119fcdd423528e87a9716bd0)

And while the setting is still by and large unbelievable, his existence (some guy with devil horns in a world of mutants and monsters), doesn't really prove anything to the avarage man. Outside of that, the setting was overwhelmingly high tech, instead of magic. I think Duplicate is a product of a magic curse, and thats it.

This is what I mean that what they changed may not seem like much, but it really changes the tone. It wasn't really going for gritty. I mean it would sometimes happen, but in a consistent way.
Quote
Yeah, making the space nazis multiracial undermines the whole space nazi thing.
(https://i.imgur.com/C2iel8p.jpeg)
It also serves as evidence that the woke are never happy. Whats already reasonably diverse, must be a mcdonalds add.


The 'Wow your an UNBELIEVABLE bitch'-ification of amber is also a TV showthing.
(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aV7o4r8_460s.jpg)

The 'Twist' is that she was a reasonable girlfriend and they eventually amicably break up after realizing Marks shedule makes homelife together difficult.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on March 20, 2022, 07:26:52 PM
There's this hilarious youtube video where a guy rewrites that scene so that Amber is sympathetic. Basically, she castigates Mark for being bad at coming up with excuses and she was just covering for him the whole time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AukwzDrgnMs

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 07:55:54 PM
Back to 'The Clone Wars'. Its a frustrating show. I don't get why people give it such acolades.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: AtomicPope on March 20, 2022, 10:55:33 PM
The best thing about The Clone Wars is their operatic story arcs.

What really bothered me about them was how frustrating and pointless they where. They often asked a question, and then resolved it with a no:

Will Anakins fate be changed by force gods? No.
Will Yoda learn anything important? No.
Will Maul achieve a secret empire? No.

The way it portrayed the Jedi as corrupt was utterly softball. The way they portray the war as a whole betrays the “hero on both sides” stuff. Having some token senators absolutely doesn’t count when 95% of everyone else is a giggling lunatic. It becomes that this was was unavoidable, Palpatine or not. And it makes Amidala wrong. This war isn’t a failure to listen. Turns out the outer rim is just filled with sick asshole aliens and sheeve did you a favor by making you an army to fight them.

TCW occasionally pretends at nuance, but only half heartedly, and then quickly returns to filler.

The Jedi weren't corrupt, they had weaknesses and flaws that could be exploited.  That was the point.

Another point, a back story is not supposed to change the future.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2022, 11:46:24 PM
The Jedi weren't corrupt, they had weaknesses and flaws that could be exploited.  That was the point.

They softballed the weaknesses and flaws then.

Quote
Another point, a back story is not supposed to change the future.

You can still have consequences and threat even if the ending ends one way. As its done, The Clone War's stories have nearly no consequences, and are not tense in it of themselves. Have the Jedi loose a planet, or have a place they thought respected them loose faith in the republic. One way or the other it won't matter as the Separatists will be defeated in the end (even if they where winning), but it still makes the conflict tense. Having the republic win all the time against buffoons takes away all stakes. I end up rooting for the Separatists because they are the underdogs, that can't ever have a victory.

Its like they have a switch of 'Be stupid morons' that can be flicked to 'Uber compitence' for an episode if it means dragging out the conflict. Which makes the story extremly predictable, but also boring because the switch won't ever be flicked up at any other time.

But if you can't make tension, at least play up how cruel this war is, and how their opponents have no chance agains them. Make the Separatists actually nuanced. But don't throw ONE token bone their way (This makes the senators come off as ignorant and stupid) and make the rest of the separatists maniacs.

How about introducing some actual separatist heroes? Not some token senators. But somebody who is involved in the war and leaves us unsure who to root for. Especially if they are doing something like defending their home.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: HappyDaze on March 21, 2022, 01:12:44 AM
How about introducing some actual separatist heroes? Not some token senators. But somebody who is involved in the war and leaves us unsure who to root for. Especially if they are doing something like defending their home.
Star Wars is written for 10-year-olds. While adults may enjoy it, wanting it to become something aimed at adults is only going to lead to disappointment. Most 10-year-olds don't really want to consider that everything in real life comes in shades of gray. They'll find out soon enough.

While not a Separatist hero, Thrawn has become the token "bad guy doing it all for a good reason" since the Disney redesign of his character. You don't see too much of it in Rebels, but it really comes out in the novels (and perhaps the comics, but I haven't read those). Of course, he's also a total Marty Stu that should probably end up shacking up with Rey despite the age difference.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 07:53:15 AM
Star Wars is written for 10-year-olds.
As I said, I find most things written for “adults” are also mostly immature. Star Trek Picard, despite being more adult, is less mature then the more family friendly next generation.

And I don’t think Star wars was everything trying to appeal purely to children. The politics in the Prequels are not exactly aimed at them.

And Thrawn is pretty sue-ish.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 21, 2022, 02:20:01 PM
Back to 'The Clone Wars'. Its a frustrating show. I don't get why people give it such acolades.

I wonder that myself. At times it feels more like the accolades are just revelling in the clone body count, and occasional jedi, as if that makes the show somehow better.

The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Pat on March 21, 2022, 02:53:46 PM
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: HappyDaze on March 21, 2022, 05:09:08 PM
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
I missed the part where the Jedi conspired to destroy a (largely) peaceful participatory galactic government through inciting a massive war from both sides with the goal of seizing power over the totalitarian government that emerged.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Lurkndog on March 21, 2022, 05:28:53 PM
Overall I liked TCW. It helps to redeem the worst parts of the prequel movies. In particular, its depiction of Anakin Skywalker is so much better than the prequel movies.

TCW also had a really big budget for an animated show, and it let them cut loose and do things on a massive scale when they wanted to.

I also think the abundance of 2-4 episode storylines was a good thing. It allowed them to tell more complex stories when the material demanded it. (And since a two-parter generally used the same models and sets over both episodes, it may have actually saved them some dough on asset creation, or at least allowed them to spread out the cost of new assets.)

That said, I did find it pretty uneven. There is some great stuff in there, but also some parts that were not very good, and even kind of a slog. Season 3 was particularly uneven, as I recall.

Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 05:40:33 PM
Overall I liked TCW. It helps to redeem the worst parts of the prequel movies. In particular, its depiction of Anakin Skywalker is so much better than the prequel movies.

Now this is an argument I understand, even if it could have been done better. With character development instead of re-write. Wherien he becomes a completly different person in the span of 2 months (while also getting Knighthood and a padawan).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Lurkndog on March 21, 2022, 06:05:44 PM
Now this is an argument I understand, even if it could have been done better. With character development instead of re-write. Wherien he becomes a completly different person in the span of 2 months (while also getting Knighthood and a padawan).

Yes, it still could have been done better, but the setup for TCW limited how far they could go. They couldn't take Anakin to the point of his fall, or even foreshadow it all that heavily, because a) that story beat is reserved for the third movie, and b) at that point you're not building up the tragic hero, you're starting to tear him down prematurely.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 21, 2022, 06:11:24 PM
Yes, it still could have been done better.

What I mean is he transitions from 'Whiny Child' to 'An OK dude thats 3 years older' in the span of 2 months cannonically. It might have been better to see him develop into a better person instead of just making him so.
Its weird they skipped on all of his character development, and then added a new character to have it happen to her (sorta).
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 22, 2022, 12:45:51 AM
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
I missed the part where the Jedi conspired to destroy a (largely) peaceful participatory galactic government through inciting a massive war from both sides with the goal of seizing power over the totalitarian government that emerged.

That was episode 2.  8)

heh. No the Jedi are worse because they drive Anakin to the dark side with their combined indifference to his visions and struggles, and their hatred and supression of emotions. They make it easy for Palpatine to predate on Anakins fears. They also make it easy for the populace to distrust them. Take note that they were so off course that they couldnt even detect a sith shaking hands with them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: HappyDaze on March 22, 2022, 06:24:53 AM
The series from cartoon to CGI does have some pretty good writing moments when it is not trying to be edgy with more clones being thrown in the grinder. But it also shows the jedi time and again as being just as bad as the sith. Just from the opposite direction. Becoming the monster they fear.
That's kind of the point. It helps explain Anakin's fall.
I missed the part where the Jedi conspired to destroy a (largely) peaceful participatory galactic government through inciting a massive war from both sides with the goal of seizing power over the totalitarian government that emerged.

That was episode 2.  8)

heh. No the Jedi are worse because they drive Anakin to the dark side with their combined indifference to his visions and struggles, and their hatred and supression of emotions. They make it easy for Palpatine to predate on Anakins fears. They also make it easy for the populace to distrust them. Take note that they were so off course that they couldnt even detect a sith shaking hands with them.
So the Jedi are just as bad because they failed to coddle one weak member that turned on them? No, the failure was ultimately Anakin's, but he didn't take any personal responsibility for a few more decades.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Lurkndog on March 22, 2022, 11:01:33 AM
Yes, it still could have been done better.

What I mean is he transitions from 'Whiny Child' to 'An OK dude thats 3 years older' in the span of 2 months cannonically. It might have been better to see him develop into a better person instead of just making him so.
Its weird they skipped on all of his character development, and then added a new character to have it happen to her (sorta).

I never thought of it that way! That's an interesting point.

I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Lurkndog on March 22, 2022, 11:20:52 AM
heh. No the Jedi are worse because they drive Anakin to the dark side with their combined indifference to his visions and struggles, and their hatred and supression of emotions. They make it easy for Palpatine to predate on Anakins fears. They also make it easy for the populace to distrust them. Take note that they were so off course that they couldnt even detect a sith shaking hands with them.
So the Jedi are just as bad because they failed to coddle one weak member that turned on them? No, the failure was ultimately Anakin's, but he didn't take any personal responsibility for a few more decades.

I think the prequel-era Jedi definitely did wrong by Anakin. Their attachment to detachment robbed them of basic sympathy for a young man in his time of need. It's no wonder he turned to Padme, and didn't see Palpatine for what he was.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2022, 12:23:50 PM
Yeah, the attempts to make the jedi look like villains were poorly done. I say that as someone who actually likes the idea of writing jedi and sith as villains or heroes in different contexts. On the bright side, it could be so much worse. Case in point:

Starcraft, an IP that I have a love/hate relationship with, suffers a similar problem. Except here it's supposed to be "light side bad! dark side good!" Except even then the writers are too incompetent to stay consistent on that. All of the light side villains have reasonable motivations if you bother to read the lore (which isn't actually explained in the game but in supplemental books nobody reads, because again the writers are fucking idiots). All of the other villains are dark siders anyhow, and all of them are sociopaths, idiots or both except for one sympathetic villain who only appears in supplemental sources written by freelancers. In fact, the light side only becomes a villain w/o reasonable motives when it gets subverted by the main antagonist of the second game (who has been retconned as the main villain of the entire franchise up to that point) who is a dark sider with plot device powers that do anything the plot requires.

I didn't think it was possible to be worse than the Star Wars sequels, but Starcraft somehow is worse. And it's not even woke, either. The game was made by sex offenders who constantly wrote the female characters as shallow eye-candy who can get away with genocide because the writers are simping for them.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 22, 2022, 01:00:03 PM
I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

I would have added a Padawan friend and another master instead. In addition I would add a planet that is a center of conflict regularly, so we get to know it and where consequences could carry.

Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: HappyDaze on March 22, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

I would have added a Padawan friend and another master instead. In addition I would add a planet that is a center of conflict regularly, so we get to know it and where consequences could carry.

Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.
In Star Wars, planets are equivalent to one of our villages, towns, or cities. Over focus on one planet would not have fit the scale of the war.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 22, 2022, 03:01:11 PM
In Star Wars, planets are equivalent to one of our villages, towns, or cities. Over focus on one planet would not have fit the scale of the war.

And before it was torn to pieces by “lighspeed jumping”, hyperspace lanes caused certain planets to become critical points for travel and defense.

And I didn’t say it should have been the ONLY planet. Just a regular one. One place we care about will convey more about the consequences of war then a dozen places of no interest.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Armchair Gamer on March 22, 2022, 03:26:33 PM
Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.

  They did a story along those lines in the comics Dark Horse was putting out between Episodes II and III; look for the "Last Stand on Jabiim" arc.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 22, 2022, 03:34:08 PM
They did a story along those lines in the comics Dark Horse was putting out between Episodes II and III; look for the "Last Stand on Jabiim" arc.

I remember. I take TCW as a downgrade to the multimedia project.

Often cribbing from it to change it for no reason.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:24:23 PM
So the Jedi are just as bad because they failed to coddle one weak member that turned on them? No, the failure was ultimately Anakin's, but he didn't take any personal responsibility for a few more decades.

No. The Jedi are bad for not even being able to see that what Anakin was going through was tearing him apart. Yoda just tells him to ignore his visions of his mother suffering. This is one of the biggest WTF moments in the movies and shows just how out of touch with the Force the Jedi have fallen. Through their actions and inactions they paved the way for Palpetine to predate on Anakin. The failure was not Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: jhkim on March 22, 2022, 07:17:20 PM
I think it happened because Lucas never planned for a follow-on TV series when he was creating the prequels. That came after.  It's possible he looked back at the sequels and saw how much he overlooked. Though I think the primary purpose of Ahsoka was to provide a viewpoint on Anakin, and give him someone to talk to about Jedi stuff that he wouldn't say to Obi-Wan.

I would have added a Padawan friend and another master instead. In addition I would add a planet that is a center of conflict regularly, so we get to know it and where consequences could carry.

Maybe a republic blunder (like deciding its people are not valuable enough to protect despite the desires of Palpatine, or what he says are his desires) gets him angry at the Republic and the idea of democracy in a more pronounced way.

I'm with you, Shrieking Banshee. I found the Clone Wars dull, with predictable action and poor characterization. And it does nothing to make Anakin's slide into evil any more believable.

For me, the core problem was that they built on top of the prequels which were even worse. Being stuck with continuity, the Clone Wars were stuck. The prequel Jedi had two huge problems: forbidding any attachment - even love of one's mother; and their continuing use of a slave army.

Both of these were supposed to be seen as minor flaws in the heroic good guys that lead to their defeat. To my view, the prequel Jedi are horrible. They are a cult who recruit by pulling children at a young age from their mothers. They indoctrinate them as child soldiers, and teach them that the right thing is to feel nothing for their family. They then accept an army of even more abused children. Those aren't flawed good guys - they are only even vaguely palatable because the Sith are over-the-top evil.

The Clone Wars had an opportunity to walk back some of that - but instead it doubled down on it for the most part. If I were doing something like this, I might have introduced  the idea that the Jedi Council on Coruscant had turned to ways that were more efficient, but weren't part of the original Jedi tradition. Maybe an older rural Jedi who is opposed to these things.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 22, 2022, 07:52:36 PM
For me, the core problem was that they built on top of the prequels which were even worse. Being stuck with continuity, the Clone Wars were stuck. The prequel Jedi had two huge problems: forbidding any attachment - even love of one's mother; and their continuing use of a slave army.

I also agree those are two big issues, and I like them in the context of 'This is how the Jedi have become corrupt over time'. George Lucas did this because he got a divorce, and is a hipster who combined christianity, taoism and buddhism into one toxic package. But I just headcannon ignore it. Which a large segment of EU does as well.

The slave army thing is the bigger one I dislike. TCN tried to walk it back by making the clones more 'personable', but this just made it worse and made it make no sense, because they should be defecting on mass. Instead of the Jedi being chummy with their slaves, they should be trying to shut the program down, but are turned down or are stuck using them because its either use this army or be unable to defend the republic.

The biggest whitewash was the stupid microchips. Because there was an elagance to the slaves gunning down the Jedi because they where ultimately never loyal to them. And the Jedi missed the danger in plain sight because 'We would never turn against the republic'. Ones that where treated well broke the programming.

But 'Microchip' denies this elegance. It tried to turn the neutral force of the clones into 'good guys that had no choice'.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:14:33 AM
For me, the core problem was that they built on top of the prequels which were even worse. Being stuck with continuity, the Clone Wars were stuck. The prequel Jedi had two huge problems: forbidding any attachment - even love of one's mother; and their continuing use of a slave army.

I also agree those are two big issues, and I like them in the context of 'This is how the Jedi have become corrupt over time'. George Lucas did this because he got a divorce, and is a hipster who combined christianity, taoism and buddhism into one toxic package. But I just headcannon ignore it. Which a large segment of EU does as well.

The slave army thing is the bigger one I dislike. TCN tried to walk it back by making the clones more 'personable', but this just made it worse and made it make no sense, because they should be defecting on mass. Instead of the Jedi being chummy with their slaves, they should be trying to shut the program down, but are turned down or are stuck using them because its either use this army or be unable to defend the republic.

Yeah. It's incredibly dark, and The Clone Wars even doubled down on this, and made it explicit that the clones were not allowed to leave the service even if they want to. There was a clone in Season Two who went awol and quit, and it was made out as an act of mercy that the trooper who found him didn't report him to the Jedi as a deserter. And yet somehow the Jedi are the good guys in a show for kids?!?


The biggest whitewash was the stupid microchips. Because there was an elagance to the slaves gunning down the Jedi because they where ultimately never loyal to them. And the Jedi missed the danger in plain sight because 'We would never turn against the republic'. Ones that where treated well broke the programming.

But 'Microchip' denies this elegance. It tried to turn the neutral force of the clones into 'good guys that had no choice'.

I don't think there is a great solution here. The Jedi had every reason to be suspicious of the troops at the start, and supposedly supernatural senses. If the clones had never been loyal, then the Jedi would have to be extremely blind and dumb to never sense or check it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 23, 2022, 01:21:53 AM
And yet somehow the Jedi are the good guys in a show for kids?!?
Largely they are. And in EU (not sure about TCW) the Jedi tried to clamp down on Clones just being eliminated at childhood for not showing warlike traits by the Kaminoans (they wher unsuccessful).
As for that AWOL clone, desertion would have been applied to any soldier that deserts their post. The clones shouldn't be even be capable of having those sorts of thoughts or this whole thing would be much more massively unstable.

And I don't think the idea was reporting to a Jedi as much as a military superior.

Quote
I don't think there is a great solution here. The Jedi had every reason to be suspicious of the troops at the start, and supposedly supernatural senses. If the clones had never been loyal, then the Jedi would have to be extremely blind and dumb to never sense or check it.
Loyal to the republic. Not them. Order 66 before retcon was like 'If a Jedi turns against the Republic they can be eliminated', which seems like a reasonable provision (considering dark Jedi). They didn't expect its legal loopholeness to be used against them.

The clones killed them without an ounce of treachery or hidden motive. There was nothing to detect until a microsecond after they where given new orders.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Armchair Gamer on March 23, 2022, 10:25:23 AM
I remember. I take TCW as a downgrade to the multimedia project.

Often cribbing from it to change it for no reason.

  Yes; this is why I'm mixed on TCW and was able to cut off Disney Star Wars with barely any regrets--I've seen stories covering these eras before, and for all their flaws, I generally enjoyed them more than what we're getting in the new era. Ironically, the part of the EU I cut out the most vigorously--the Legacy of the Force series--is one of the parts that bears a strong resemblance to the Sequel Trilogy. :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 23, 2022, 10:47:44 AM
The Legacy of the Force series--is one of the parts that bears a strong resemblance to the Sequel Trilogy. :)

Oh yeah. The sequels where bad EU ideas concentrated, combined with flash, mystery boxes and arrogance.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 12:42:13 PM
And yet somehow the Jedi are the good guys in a show for kids?!?
As for that AWOL clone, desertion would have been applied to any soldier that deserts their post. The clones shouldn't be even be capable of having those sorts of thoughts or this whole thing would be much more massively unstable.

And I don't think the idea was reporting to a Jedi as much as a military superior.

That's my point. The Clone Wars made it canon that the clones *are* capable of having these sort of thoughts - that they might want to retire and raise a family. But they are given no option to do so. In the episode, the soldier knew simply by seeing that the man was a clone and not in the army that he was a "deserter".

Really it's awful whichever way it is cast. Either (1) the clones are so thoroughly brainwashed that they unquestioningly do whatever they're told; or (2) the clones have free will and they are forced to fight even though they might not want to.

The Clone Wars chose #2 - that the clones are just regular people with enough free will that they could quit, and might even disobey orders. They make the clones as sympathetic real people. That's why the show needed the retcon of implanted chips that are invoked to make the clones obey.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 24, 2022, 01:15:30 PM
The Clone Wars chose #2 - that the clones are just regular people with enough free will that they could quit, and might even disobey orders. They make the clones as sympathetic real people. That's why the show needed the retcon of implanted chips that are invoked to make the clones obey.

They made sympathetic but not realistic people. If their brainwashing is this faulty, there should be mass defections and desertions. And if they need the microchip to be kept in line, why isn't it online all the time.

Again I hate this sort of walkback, because it was an attempt to whitewash what the clones where established to be before. Because god forbid that they be portrayed in a negative light.
Its first establishing them as slaves, and then saying 'Don't worry about it - they love it!'. 'These slaves love their masters way too much to betray them. Only evil chips could make them abandon their warlords!'.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 03:08:26 PM
They made sympathetic but not realistic people. If their brainwashing is this faulty, there should be mass defections and desertions. And if they need the microchip to be kept in line, why isn't it online all the time.

Again I hate this sort of walkback, because it was an attempt to whitewash what the clones where established to be before. Because god forbid that they be portrayed in a negative light.
Its first establishing them as slaves, and then saying 'Don't worry about it - they love it!'. 'These slaves love their masters way too much to betray them. Only evil chips could make them abandon their warlords!'.

Yeah, that's how I see it too. I hated the clone plotline in the prequels, and the walkbacks in The Clone Wars only made it worse, not better.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 24, 2022, 03:19:51 PM
Yeah, that's how I see it too. I hated the clone plotline in the prequels, and the walkbacks in The Clone Wars only made it worse, not better.

I liked it in the PT because character flaws are good when acknowledged. But I hated the CW walkback.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:31:19 PM
Keep in mind that SW treats the clones as no different from Droids. Droids are mostly just machines. Except when someone wants them to not be. And they like their jobs. Except when someone wants them to not be.

There is zero consistency in anything.

This is endemic of alot of modern writing and why comics are such a complete mess now as well. But Lucas was doing this well ahead of the curve.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Clone Wars - I don't think its all that great
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on March 26, 2022, 09:24:48 PM
Keep in mind that SW treats the clones as no different from Droids. Droids are mostly just machines. Except when someone wants them to not be. And they like their jobs. Except when someone wants them to not be.

There is zero consistency in anything.

This is endemic of alot of modern writing and why comics are such a complete mess now as well. But Lucas was doing this well ahead of the curve.
It’s bad writing and a symptom of either the writer being incompetent or two many writers with contradicting visions. It’s more obvious now because the traditional barrier to publishing has been steadily eroding and it’s become easier than ever for people to share stupid writing.